A way ST forces could win a battle with the Empire

[Jm81]

It's not often these days that you see someone making a SW vs ST argument that isn't just full of shit. So I guess, either props to you, or you missed the boat with over ten years.

I appreciate the warm words. Thank you.

Not correct. Armour protects just fine against antimatter implosions. What it can't do is prevent the reaction in the first place. But an antimatter implosion in space is almost only radiation. So yeah, it goes off. But that doesn't mean that armour doesn't protect a ship against it.

True, the intent isn't to suggest that a/m creating massive amount of heat and radiation is what will do the damage. Rather its the ability for a/m to annihilate the armor that ST weapons stand no chance against to then get to the lower decks and the soft pink skinned creatures that inhabit them.

That only applies to Death Star One. Fighters are annihilated against ISD shields and the DS2 shields. We can directly observe both of these facts; fighters are annihilated against ISD shields in ROTJ, and the rebels were unable to mount an attack on the open structure of the DS2 until the shields were down.

This as well is partly true. There are times when fighters aren't able to pass through shields and the only example of this is the DS2. But remember this wasn't a normal shield as the DS1 had that the fighters passed though. This was something that was projected on it from the moon. So it must be something special being even the SSD in the same movie had examples of fighters passing through its shields as well as examples of TCW era war ships having fighters pass through them as well.

Props to Brian Young, I've followed his videos with great interest and he's even made observations that are new to me, which isn't exactly something you see every day. Your argument, however, is self-defeating since it's built on faulty premises.

I think Brian did a great job and put forth tons of work that I couldn't have ever done. While we disagree on if my point is built on a faulty premise we both do agree upon that his videos are very interesting.

[Jm81]

Secondly, no one's ever disputed that you can penetrate ground theatre shields by having ground contact and moving slowly; ground contact is required. We've never see any kind of flying craft penetrate a theatre shield.

You are quite correct in that statement but even in TCW canon shows, we see not just ground theater shields being bypassed. I will refer you to a previous post where I showed Tri-droid fighters passing through shields.

Secondly, we have very clear indication from the movies that you can't penetrate starship shields simply by flying slowly. One is the TPM battleship. It was impenetrable for the Naboo fighters until Anakin got inside the ship. Which he didn't do by flying slowly; he entered the hangar a split second after it had launched Vulture droids, meaning the shields had to be down at that moment.

I have one point to make about this. The shielding that covers the bay isn't the shielding that was protecting the hull. So even for Anakin to get into the hanger he would have to pass through the shield!

Third, and in regards to the two A-Wings attacking the Executor, I present the text from the ROTJ novelization which by the way overrules the CW cartoon

What is your justification for stating a novel by James Kahn supersedes TCW?

'We've knocked out their forward shields,' Ackbar said into the comlink. 'Fire at the bridge.'

That makes it indisputable that capital ship fire brought down the shields of the Executor before the A-Wings attacked

Excuse my ignorance, I should have actually look at the wording when Captain Seafoot brought this up, but where does it specifically state that it was capital ship fire that brought down the forward shields? We've knocked out the shields could indicate capital ships, fighters belonging to the fleet, or a combination of the two!

Secondly,

http://www.putlocker.com/file/CAAD31EEBDBBA4FC#
Time stamp: 1:54:04
"Sir, we have lost our bridge deflector shields!"

Ackbar didn't state "we've knocked out their bridge deflector shields." He stated that the shields they took out where the "forward shields"!

We are talking about two different shield sections!

[Jm81]

I apologize for multi-posting so much, but it's not like I can go back and edit in. I have only so much time every now and then, being a father and a husband with a full time job.

No need, you make strong points and I enjoy debating with you. Your multi-posting doesn't bother me in the bit.

I suppose I could open an account on asvs, but aside from Brian Young and say three more, I don't even like the people there. Yes, that means you.

Well, *shrug* sorry to hear that. Oh well.

"Clear bay 327. We're opening the magnetic field."

The Falcon was going in quite slowly, and we do know that the Death Star One had seams in its shields that allows a ship like the Falcon through. But the hangar had a field that had to be opened to let it through.

Good point. I'll give you another example as well. In Revenge of the Sith, the bay magnetic shield had to be knocked out before Obiwan and Anakin could crash land in it. It appears that these bay shields are not permeable like the evidence suggest about deflector shields on war ships.

[Batman]

As evidenced by...you saying so. This shows us the shields were down, nothing more.

Someone walks up to you, states, the light in your room has been turned off. What was its prior state? ON! Durr! Man, what do they teach these kids in school nowadays!

Wouldn't know, haven't been in school for a long time, but if you're any indication, apparently nothing much. I do know the analogy is totally flawed given the lights going out is something immediately noticeable. Like, it's suddenly dark. The immediately noticeable effect of the shields just having dropped would be? The one that proves the shields were up right up to that moment?

Let's see-'Concentrate all fire on that Super Star Destroyer', the novel quote saying they have to drop the shields for the fighters to be any use, and what do you know, after they concentrate all fire on Executor, the A-Wings manage to blow up the dome thingie. Could there perhaps be a connection?

A novel, not written by GL, which is the point of contention and seems to contradict the movie canon

Really. Show me the contradiction. Show me were the movie explicitly says the shields were still up.

is what you want to cite to make your point against the argument against the same book. Circular logic much?

No, proper understanding of what constitutes a) Star Wars canon and b) logical reasoning. What you believe was their intention with that scene is completely irrelevant. The novel quote is canon. Nothing in the movie contradicts it.

What do they teach these kids in school nowadays?

Again, if you're anything to go by, nothing whatsoever.

Except, as Captain Seafort pointed out, that never actually happened, not that it would prove anything if it had.

Canon evidence:
http://www.putlocker.com/file/CAAD31EEBDBBA4FC#
Time stamp: 1:53:59
He is staring intently the first time we see him. Just a friendly word of advice, don't use Captain Seafort's posts as a reference, he does no research before posting and it will end up with you having to back track.

Actually, he has to bow down to look at the screen the first time we see him. Someone is indeed not doing proper research indeed
Not that it would prove the shields failed as a result of the A-Wing attack even if he had been, of course. You obviously still don't understand the concept of evidence.

You're stating your conclusion as e premise and are wrong to boot, see Captain Seaforts reply. The guy staring at the screen doesn't mean the shields dropped at the moment he anounced it. It just means...the guy was staring at the screen.

No, it means that as events unfolded, he saw it. And shields dropping is a pretty huge event that the Captain needs to know right away!

He saw the shields were down, nothing more. You still have to prove they dropped the moment he reported it and not the few seconds earlier that are all that is required for the A-Wings to make their attack run unhindered. Ample canon evidence has been provided for the shields being down thanks to fleet bombardment. Zero canon evidence has been provided by you for them still being up until that statement.

But not that they had to be up by the time of the A-Wing attack you retard.

Funny how you and Captain Seafort show how shaky the ground you are arguing from. In debates, insults show weakness in arguments

No, it just shows that you think your opponent is a retard, but feel free to complain about it to the management.

Besides, if the shields hadn't dropped why would the Captain order forward batters to intensify so nothing gets through just moments before they died. If shields had dropped before the A-wings got there he would have already ordered it!

Logic and you are apparently not on speaking terms. If he'd already known about the shields being down your precious 'I just said the shields are down therefore they must have failed right this second' comment would have been not inconsiderably redundant. That doesn't prove the shields were still up until that comment, however. Merely that the captain didn't know were down until after the A-Wing attack.

Canon evidence:
http://www.putlocker.com/file/CAAD31EEBDBBA4FC#
Time stamp of fighters scoring hits on hull: 1:54:00
Time stamp of shields dropping (under contention): 1:54:07
Time stamp of captain ordering batteries to intensify since shields JUST dropped!: 1:54:09

Err-no. That's the captain ordering batteries to intensify forward firepower after having been informed shields are down. You have yet to prove they were still up during the X-Wing attack run.

[nightmare]

This as well is partly true. There are times when fighters aren't able to pass through shields and the only example of this is the DS2. But remember this wasn't a normal shield as the DS1 had that the fighters passed though. This was something that was projected on it from the moon. So it must be something special being even the SSD in the same movie had examples of fighters passing through its shields as well as examples of TCW era war ships having fighters pass through them as well.

As I've already shown, the Executor did not have its shields bypassed. TCW is largely irrelevant as evidence in general, but I'll be specific why it's not permissible in this case. I saw that the Buzz droids in AOTC has been brought up as evidence for shield bypassing. However, these droids are specifically noted as having a construction that allows them to bypass shields. That alone makes a point against regular fighters being able to do this, since they don't have it. If you say that this explanation is only from the EU, it doesn't really matter since we know that shields are typically hull-hugging below the actual hull (although highly variable); there's nothing needed to penetrate when you land. The same goes for Falcon in TESB. Brian Young brings up a number of examples of hull-hugging shields in his shields video commentary, along with examples of non-hull hugging shields. It particularly bares to note that Jango Fett hit Obi-Wan's Delta-7 with a laser bolt. The hit was seemingly directly on the hull, yet markedly different from asteroid hits which vapourized them, and we know that the Delta-7 has shields.

You are quite correct in that statement but even in TCW canon shows, we see not just ground theater shields being bypassed. I will refer you to a previous post where I showed Tri-droid fighters passing through shields.

AOTC overrules the TCW. IF there is a contradiction, which is by no means certain.

I have one point to make about this. The shielding that covers the bay isn't the shielding that was protecting the hull. So even for Anakin to get into the hanger he would have to pass through the shield!

Every Star Wars ship has multiple shield sections, even fighters have two. If you require evidence for that, you've yourself brought up the note of "bridge deflector shields". Multiple layered shields on the other hand are highly unusual, I think it's only been mentioned for certain high-value planets like Coruscant. No evidence for what you suggest exists, but there is strong evidence to the contrary.

What is your justification for stating a novel by James Kahn supersedes TCW?

The novelization of ROTJ is G-canon, everything except the movies themselves are below it. TCW is T canon, which rates above the bulk of the EU but below the movies, novelizations thereof, the radio plays and everything else G-canon. The hierarchy is clear, but every contradiction is handled case by case. In this case specifically, either the interpretation of TCW is wrong, the Malevolent is a special case, the Tri-Fighters is a special case, or the TCW is wrong as depicted. Not in any case is the interpretation of TCW allowed to supercede ROTJ or its novel. Also bear note that this is an interpretation rather than explicit evidence. There is no direct evidence that points to Tri-Fighters bypassing shields while in addition we have clear evidence of hull-hugging shields.

Excuse my ignorance, I should have actually look at the wording when Captain Seafoot brought this up, but where does it specifically state that it was capital ship fire that brought down the forward shields? We've knocked out the shields could indicate capital ships, fighters belonging to the fleet, or a combination of the two!

The Imperial fighters attacked the weaker Rebel fleet by the hundreds (more like thousands when you start counting 72x24 plus Ex), and accomplished precisely dick. That's what unsupported fighters are worth against shielded capships. But they have many uses anyway. For starters, they can protect against Star Bombers, pinpoint hull strikes against shield sections which have failed before the capship can bring backups online, they can help with scouting, targeting, pick off warheads, draw enemy fire, prevent caphips from focusing their shields on the sections facing the enemy only, and tons of other things. In other words, they're great for support, practically worthless as main combatants.

Ackbar didn't state "we've knocked out their bridge deflector shields." He stated that the shields they took out where the "forward shields"!

We are talking about two different shield sections!

Just because the Imperials call it bridge deflector shields - being more accurate given that they should know their own ship - doesn't mean that Ackbar isn't referring to the same shields. You'd have to prove they're different, which is impossible, while the implication that they are the same is strong. In fact, there's pretty damn strong evidence that suggests that these shields cover a lot of the ship. If you're nice maybe Darth Wong will show you his bluray screenies showing Executor's ventral hull full of local fires. So if you want to get technical about it, it would be entirely possible for Ackbar to hit the forward hull of the Executor and take out the bridge covering shield in the same move.

Well, *shrug* sorry to hear that. Oh well.

Sorry, I should have expressed myself better, but I was pressed for time. I didn't mean you personally, in this thread, but rather some of the clientèle over at the present ASVS. There's no one there that I know of who can be regarded as Old Guard, save Brian Young. Three, let's say five people tops seem a bit low on the approval rate.

Good point. I'll give you another example as well. In Revenge of the Sith, the bay magnetic shield had to be knocked out before Obiwan and Anakin could crash land in it. It appears that these bay shields are not permeable like the evidence suggest about deflector shields on war ships.

You'll note that this also implies that the Trade Fed Control Ship's hangar shields weren't permeable either. Which means they had to be down as the hangar had just launched fighters - which didn't launch slowly at all, by the way.

I don't really have a problem with the possibility of fighters passing between shield sections - it happened with the first Death Star after all, and Star Wars shields can alter geometry on command - but the evidence is very strong against that being some sort of norm.

[Metahive]

Hull-hugging below the hull? Sorry, but TPM disproves that when Anakin restarts his shields and the effect is very much above the hull.

[Batman]

Which proves that this particular model of fighter didn't have them, nothing more. Since we see all kinds of shield configurations in Wars-bubble shields, planar shields, shields that need one generator, shields that needs several, shields you can walk through, shields you can't, permanently visible, only visible at activation and/or on impacts, never visible and so on-this does not disprove the existence of below-the-hull huggers.

[Jm81]

The immediately noticeable effect of the shields just having dropped would be? The one that proves the shields were up right up to that moment?

If shields are down now what were they before? Up. How obvious to someone who isn't willfully ignorant because canon disagrees with him? Very.

Actually, he has to bow down to look at the screen the first time we see him. Someone is indeed not doing proper research indeed
Not that it would prove the shields failed as a result of the A-Wing attack even if he had been, of course. You obviously still don't understand the concept of evidence.

Wow again too easy. I guess it usually is when you are fighting against your own canon. First time we see him he is looking at the screen. He then suddenly takes a closer look, because the shields just fell, and reports it. Watch the vid clip and stop embarrassing yourself.

He saw the shields were down, nothing more.

And reported it as soon as it happened as noted by: 1. He was always looking at the display. 2. The captain took immediate action to protect them once the protection afforded by shielding was gone.

No, it just shows that you think your opponent is a retard...

No it just reflects poorly on you. When you grow up you will see this. Till then, carry on.

If he'd already known about the shields being down your precious 'I just said the shields are down therefore they must have failed right this second' comment would have been not inconsiderably redundant. That doesn't prove the shields were still up until that comment, however. Merely that the captain didn't know were down until after the A-Wing attack.

Its quite evident you are falling all over yourself to explain around the obvious but you still haven't gotten past the simple point that shields dropping would be an event that would be reported once it happened as they are in a fight. To think otherwise is to assume extreme incompetence upon the SSD's crew or simple intellectual dishonesty. And noting how the captain took immediate action once that protection was gone, pretty much confirms this.

[Jm81]

Every Star Wars ship has multiple shield sections...

I agree and this is important later on.

The Imperial fighters attacked the weaker Rebel fleet by the hundreds (more like thousands when you start counting 72x24 plus Ex), and accomplished precisely dick.

Maybe you are right. Maybe you aren't. Do you have evidence of such?

Just because the Imperials call it bridge deflector shields - being more accurate given that they should know their own ship - doesn't mean that Ackbar isn't referring to the same shields. You'd have to prove they're different,

No, YOU have to prove they are the same! They have different names and let me remind you of your own comment:

Every Star Wars ship has multiple shield sections...

All of this, for pages and pages have been Captain Seafort stating that there is canon evidence from the book that rebuts the notion of fighters passing through shields because it was capital ship bombardment that brought down the bridge deflector shields. And now we see the book stated they brought down a completely different shield section! If YOU are asserting that two different shield section names are the same location YOU have to prove that! Because until you do, the novel doesn't offer ANY evidence to the contrary that the A-wings didn't pass through the shields and scored those hull hits.

[Batman]

The immediately noticeable effect of the shields just having dropped would be? The one that proves the shields were up right up to that moment?

If shields are down now what were they before? Up. How obvious to someone who isn't willfully ignorant because canon disagrees with him? Very.

Yep. That one being you. I'm not the one canon disagrees here with you know. The shields no longer being up means they were up until sometime before the statement that they were down. Onus to prove that they were up until that very statement is still on you, I'm afraid.

Actually, he has to bow down to look at the screen the first time we see him. Someone is indeed not doing proper research indeed
Not that it would prove the shields failed as a result of the A-Wing attack even if he had been, of course. You obviously still don't understand the concept of evidence.

Wow again too easy. I guess it usually is when you are fighting against your own canon. First time we see him he is looking at the screen.

No he's not. He's actually flinching away from it

He then suddenly takes a closer look, because the shields just fell, and reports it.

Um-no, that's not how it works. You don't get to assume the shields just fell as he reported it. You have to prove they did, in the face of there being plenty of canon evidence for a)the fleet bombardment being what dropped them, b)starfighters doing jack all against shield Stardestroyers leave alone an Executor, yet c) the A-Wings managing to blow up the bridge dome thingie. You don't get to ignore canon evidence just because it undermines you (completely unsupported by the way, there's zero canon evidence for the bridge deflector still being up at that moment and plenty against) pet theory.

He saw the shields were down, nothing more.

And reported it as soon as it happened as noted by: 1. He was always looking at the display.

Wrong, and wrong. He initially flinched away from the display, and even if he had been, that wouldn't be evidence for the shields dropping at that moment. It would merely be evidence for him looking at the screen. But feel free to provide the screencaps that prove the display changed from 'shields up' to 'shields down' at that moment. You can't? Sucks to be you then.

2. The captain took immediate action to protect them once the protection afforded by shielding was gone.

The moment he was informed of this, yes. By all means prove (not blatantly assume, actually prove that was the moment they actually went down).

No, it just shows that you think your opponent is a retard...

No it just reflects poorly on you. When you grow up you will see this. Till then, carry on.

I've been out saving Gotham City when your grandfather was in diapers and chances are will be when your grandchildren (assuming you ever find a woman stupid enough to want to have your children) are long dead. I think I'll manage.

If he'd already known about the shields being down your precious 'I just said the shields are down therefore they must have failed right this second' comment would have been not inconsiderably redundant. That doesn't prove the shields were still up until that comment, however. Merely that the captain didn't know were down until after the A-Wing attack.

Its quite evident you are falling all over yourself to explain around the obvious but you still haven't gotten past the simple point that shields dropping would be an event that would be reported once it happened as they are in a fight. To think otherwise is to assume extreme incompetence upon the SSD's crew or simple intellectual dishonesty. And noting how the captain took immediate action once that protection was gone, pretty much confirms this.

There's intellectual dishonesty here but it sure isn't on my part. Regardless of whether or not something like that is going to reported immediately, what you have continually failed to prove that it was. You blithely assume it was because it's important while providing NO FUCKING CANON EVIDENCE that was actually the case, when plenty of evidence has provided that it was actually the fleet bombardment that brought the shields down.
Oh, and just for your rar immediately reported idiocy, again, prove that happened, but yeah, mistakes never happen, especially not in the military, particularly one as benevolent and well-meaning as the Imperial Navy, and certainly not in the middle of a battle that is somehow not going the way you expected it to.
You are also assuming that the captain took immediate action once the protection was gone without showing it was still there up until this point, as opposed to the far more rational explanation that he so after having been informed of that.
'Shields are gone'-Captain orders increased defensive fire-does not equal shields were UP until that, merely that he didn't know they were down. Are you sure logical thinking and you live in the same universe?

[Batman]

The Imperial fighters attacked the weaker Rebel fleet by the hundreds (more like thousands when you start counting 72x24 plus Ex), and accomplished precisely dick.

Maybe you are right. Maybe you aren't. Do you have evidence of such?

You're welcome to point out which ships in the Rebel fleet were killed by fighters, movie, novel or EU, when the movie alone shows us fighters doing exactly dick against ISDs (up to and including crashing into their bridge towers for exactly zero effect), in the face of canon quotes to the fact that yes, without capship support, they'd be powerless against the Imperial Fleet.

[Jedipilot24]

The Imperial fighters attacked the weaker Rebel fleet by the hundreds (more like thousands when you start counting 72x24 plus Ex), and accomplished precisely dick.

Maybe you are right. Maybe you aren't. Do you have evidence of such?

You're welcome to point out which ships in the Rebel fleet were killed by fighters, movie, novel or EU, when the movie alone shows us fighters doing exactly dick against ISDs (up to and including crashing into their bridge towers for exactly zero effect), in the face of canon quotes to the fact that yes, without capship support, they'd be powerless against the Imperial Fleet.

That's how I've interpreted the scene. The capship bombardment brought the shields down, then the A-Wings swooped in to destroy the generator before it could recharge.

[Lord Revan]

personally I interpected it as that A-wings were the straw that broke the camels back, meaning that while those attacks in and of themselves would probably not even dented the shields of the Executor but since the shields were already streached to their limits by the capship bombardment, the fighter attack was just that little bit too much and the shields gave up the ghost with results we see on screen.

[Crazedwraith]

I find it hilarious the idea that there was this huge capship bombardment on the Executor between Ackbar's order and the A-Wing attack considering the film cuts straight from one to the other; obviously implying a cause and effect. I mean if there was any scene in between those two then I'd get it. But really the film is just ackbar gives the order to concentrate fire - two a-wings attack.

[Jm81]

No he's not. He's actually flinching away from it

Timestamp of him flinching. Because the first time we see him he is looking at the screen.

You don't get to assume the shields just fell as he reported it. You have to prove they did, in the face of there being plenty of canon evidence for a)the fleet bombardment being what dropped them, b)starfighters doing jack all against shield Stardestroyers leave alone an Executor, yet c) the A-Wings managing to blow up the bridge dome thingie. You don't get to ignore canon evidence just because it undermines you (completely unsupported by the way, there's zero canon evidence for the bridge deflector still being up at that moment and plenty against) pet theory

Oh look how unfortunate for you. Now that Captain Seafort's novel has been shown to NOT say that the bridge deflector shields were dropped by cap ship bombardment THE ONLY CANON EVIDENCE SHOWS JUST THE A-WINGS BROUGHT THE SHIELDS DOWN. Sorry?

The moment he was informed of this, yes. By all means prove (not blatantly assume, actually prove that was the moment they actually went down).

What other source of damage was there? The RotJ novel never said the bridge deflector shields as stated by the imp officer were dropped. Are you going to invent some other damage source now?

I've been out saving Gotham City when your grandfather was in diapers and chances are will be when your [...blah blah blah insert your worthless pointless words here...] I think I'll manage.

I was talking about your maturity not your age when I mentioned growing up.

You blithely assume it was because it's important while providing NO FUCKING CANON EVIDENCE that was actually the case, when plenty of evidence has provided that it was actually the fleet bombardment that brought the shields down.

And now that the RotJ novel has been shown not to be talking about dropping bridge deflector shields the only canon source shows the only damage coming from the a-wings.... What now? You going to invent some other source of damage to take the shields down?

[Jm81]

personally I interpected it as that A-wings were the straw that broke the camels back, meaning that while those attacks in and of themselves would probably not even dented the shields of the Executor but since the shields were already streached to their limits by the capship bombardment, the fighter attack was just that little bit too much and the shields gave up the ghost with results we see on screen.

The truth of the issue is that now that the RotJ novel has been shown to not state anything about bridge deflector shields being hit by cap ship bombardment we have no other canon source of damage hitting the bridge deflector shield besides the A-wings.

[Jm81]

I find it hilarious the idea that there was this huge capship bombardment on the Executor between Ackbar's order and the A-Wing attack considering the film cuts straight from one to the other; obviously implying a cause and effect. I mean if there was any scene in between those two then I'd get it. But really the film is just ackbar gives the order to concentrate fire - two a-wings attack.

Two events took place. Ackbar ordered bombardment of the SSD and the A-wings attack one after another. The RotJ novel further clarifies for us that the fleet bombardment from Ackbar's orders dropped a different shield section while at the same time the A-wings performed a surgical strike and took out the bridge deflector shields.


RotJ Novel:
"Ackbar stared wild-eyed out the observation window. He was looking down onto the deck of the Super Star Destroyer, only miles away. Fires burst over the entire stern, and the Imperial warship was listing badly to starboard.

'We've knocked out their forward shields..."

[Captain Seafort]

Two events took place. Ackbar ordered bombardment of the SSD and the A-wings attack one after another.

Prove that those events were immediately sequential, with no time gap between the cuts.

RotJ Novel:
"Ackbar stared wild-eyed out the observation window. He was looking down onto the deck of the Super Star Destroyer, only miles away. Fires burst over the entire stern, and the Imperial warship was listing badly to starboard.

'We've knocked out their forward shields..."

The full quote is '"We've knocked out their forward shields" Ackbar said into the comlink. "Fire at the bridge."'

Which a) proves that a lot happened between the order for concentrated fire and the A-wing attack and b) there's a direct causal relationship between the loss of shields and said attack. If ships could just swan in through the shields there would be no need for such a relationship.

The truth of the issue is that now that the RotJ novel has been shown to not state anything about bridge deflector shields being hit by cap ship bombardment we have no other canon source of damage hitting the bridge deflector shield besides the A-wings.

We have the fact that fighters don't stand a chance against capships unless their shields are first brought down. Given that fact, we therefore know that it couldn't have been the fighters that disabled the bridge shields. Therefore, the shields were brought down by capship bombardment.

Don't like it? That's your problem - tell the padre.

[Batman]

No he's not. He's actually flinching away from it

Timestamp of him flinching. Because the first time we see him he is looking at the screen.

You're right, my bad. A few fractions of a second after we cut to the bridge, but he was looking at the screen before he flinched. But as I said, that's not proof the shields fell as he reported it.

You don't get to assume the shields just fell as he reported it. You have to prove they did, in the face of there being plenty of canon evidence for a)the fleet bombardment being what dropped them, b)starfighters doing jack all against shield Stardestroyers leave alone an Executor, yet c) the A-Wings managing to blow up the bridge dome thingie. You don't get to ignore canon evidence just because it undermines you (completely unsupported by the way, there's zero canon evidence for the bridge deflector still being up at that moment and plenty against) pet theory

Oh look how unfortunate for you. Now that Captain Seafort's novel has been shown to NOT say that the bridge deflector shields were dropped by cap ship bombardment THE ONLY CANON EVIDENCE SHOWS JUST THE A-WINGS BROUGHT THE SHIELDS DOWN. Sorry?

Um-no. The canon evidence still shows they concentrated all fire on the Executor and that on their own, fighters can do jack all against capital ships yet still curiously fails to prove the shields were still up during the A-Wing attack. So far your only evidence for the shields being up is...the guy saying the shields are down. Um...no.

The moment he was informed of this, yes. By all means prove (not blatantly assume, actually prove that was the moment they actually went down).

What other source of damage was there?

That'd be the concentrated fire of the rebel fleet.

The RotJ novel never said the bridge deflector shields as stated by the imp officer were dropped.

It never said they weren't, either. And besides, who cares? Canon evidence for fighters being useless against capships from the movie and the novel, canon evidence for concentrated bombardment by the rebel fleet from both the novel and the movie, zero canon evidence for the shields still being up at the time from either source.

Are you going to invent some other damage source now?

I don't have to. The one we have-the fleet bombardment-is quite sufficient.

I've been out saving Gotham City when your grandfather was in diapers and chances are will be when your [...blah blah blah insert your worthless pointless words here...] I think I'll manage.

I was talking about your maturity not your age when I mentioned growing up.

Ooo. Did I strike a nerve there?

You blithely assume it was because it's important while providing NO FUCKING CANON EVIDENCE that was actually the case, when plenty of evidence has provided that it was actually the fleet bombardment that brought the shields down.

And now that the RotJ novel has been shown not to be talking about dropping bridge deflector shields the only canon source shows the only damage coming from the a-wings.... What now? You going to invent some other source of damage to take the shields down?

I wasn't aware the fleet bombardment had been removed from the movie. I'd say 'concentrate all firepower on that Super Star Destroyer' definitely counts as a source of damage.

[Batman]

personally I interpected it as that A-wings were the straw that broke the camels back, meaning that while those attacks in and of themselves would probably not even dented the shields of the Executor but since the shields were already streached to their limits by the capship bombardment, the fighter attack was just that little bit too much and the shields gave up the ghost with results we see on screen.

The truth of the issue is that now that the RotJ novel has been shown to not state anything about bridge deflector shields being hit by cap ship bombardment we have no other canon source of damage hitting the bridge deflector shield besides the A-wings.

Err yes, that'd be the capship bombardment mentioned in the movie, which if I recall correctly was never mentioned not to have hit the bridge deflectors, but even if the A-wings did bring down said bridge deflectors, that doesn't mean they passed through the shields, it merely means Executor's bridge deflectors sucked.

[Jm81]

Hello everyone,

I know its been a long time since I have posted and replied. With recent events this week in Boston have given me pause to reflect on what how I prioritize things in my life and suddenly I see delving into such silly debates like these about make believe fairy tales is not something I should continue doing. Time for me to grow up in a sense.

Therefore, I just want to say, to those who have disagreed with me, I wish you all well and I hope whatever you have going on in your lives works out for the best. I don't want to portray I am passing any sort of judgement on you guys for enjoying this. And while I feel both sides of this debate had strong arguments, if you do enjoy this still, cool. But for me, its time to grow up.

With that I wish you all the best in your lives...

Peace out.

-John

[Metahive]

What a nicely passive-aggressive way to call your opponents infantile and childish...as well as insinuating that people who discuss science-fiction and fantasy can't possibly be really concerned about the real world. Have you seen the 15+ pages thread about the Boston incident on this very site?

Way to be classy and a good sport, asshole. Don't trip on your way outside, you might land face-first in a pile of dogpoop.

[Jedipilot24]

What a nicely passive-aggressive way to call your opponents infantile and childish...as well as insinuating that people who discuss science-fiction and fantasy can't possibly be really concerned about the real world. Have you seen the 15+ pages thread about the Boston incident on this very site?

Way to be classy and a good sport, asshole. Don't trip on your way outside, you might land face-first in a pile of dogpoop.

Why are you always insulting people? That's childish.

[Batman]

Tough luck. Around here, you're allowed to. And frankly, by local standards, that was pretty benign.
Now personally, I'm willing to give jm81 the benefit of the doubt and accept that post at face value, but given the guy's behaviour in this thread, I can absolutely see why Metahive doesn't.

[Metahive]

Why are you always insulting people? That's childish.

Heh, I'll stop insulting people if you agree to stop being a useless douchewad. O wait, tough luck, that was written into your genetic code when Dr. Fu Man Chu cloned you from a rat's arse.