Re: Silly flip-up panels on Federation phaser rifles

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Grand Admiral Thrawn
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

Shadow wrote:Why does everyone go on about how bad Federation ground troops are when the most elite of Stormtroopers are beat by Ewoks? Not to mention their horrible accuracy, seen all the time.

Yes, Ewoks that won by pure numbers (TAB) had a terrain advantage, managed to capture a walker which really turned the tied, and were concidered to be wildlife, not potential enemies. Also notice the Stormtroopers were armed with E-11 carbines, no DLT-16 rifles or T-21 light repeating blasters. Scouttroopers only had pistols!


Provide one example of really bad accuracy for stormies. Bespin and the Death Star don't count. They weren't trying to kill them.
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Post by Cpt_Frank »

Just look at the Tantive boarding action to see how good the Stormies really are.
Another point why the Fed's ground troops suck like vacuum:
They've got nothing but light Infantry (AT-AT anyone?).
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

And then looks at the guns. Imperial have stocks, sights and trigger guards. Not very impressive until you look at federation guns. The hand gun is one of those small vacuum cleaners, the III rifle has no stock or tigger guard and the little flip up thing. The compression rifle is a blocky mess. Only the assault rifle is any good.
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote: Only the assault rifle is any good.
I'm sure they designed it to force the Fed security guards to actually aim the damn thing properly. Why train them to standard when the rifle forces them to bring it into the shoulder and look down the sights to fire it.
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Post by Mr Bean »

Yes don't forget SW Troops have Gernades and Atilliry and all sorts of fun USEFUL things that Federation Troops problably don't even know what they are

Seriously sure you can say good guys always win but dang it some of these shots they miss I could make drunk blindfolded and using a Mac-10 on full auto with a ten round clip!

And thats very hard! For those who have never used a Mac-10 they are terrible on full auto, heck your more likley to hit the target with your eyes closed than open on FA with those things as my old rangmaster used to say

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Grand Admiral Thrawn
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

Mr Bean wrote:Yes don't forget SW Troops have Gernades and Atilliry and all sorts of fun USEFUL things that Federation Troops problably don't even know what they are

Seriously sure you can say good guys always win but dang it some of these shots they miss I could make drunk blindfolded and using a Mac-10 on full auto with a ten round clip!

And thats very hard! For those who have never used a Mac-10 they are terrible on full auto, heck your more likley to hit the target with your eyes closed than open on FA with those things as my old rangmaster used to say

Show an example of bad Stormie accuracy.
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Mr Bean wrote: For those who have never used a Mac-10 they are terrible on full auto, heck your more likley to hit the target with your eyes closed than open on FA with those things as my old rangmaster used to say
Only if the targets are suspended in the sky. :)
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:
Mr Bean wrote:Yes don't forget SW Troops have Gernades and Atilliry and all sorts of fun USEFUL things that Federation Troops problably don't even know what they are

Seriously sure you can say good guys always win but dang it some of these shots they miss I could make drunk blindfolded and using a Mac-10 on full auto with a ten round clip!

And thats very hard! For those who have never used a Mac-10 they are terrible on full auto, heck your more likley to hit the target with your eyes closed than open on FA with those things as my old rangmaster used to say

Show an example of bad Stormie accuracy.
I think he's talking about the Feds there. Though it would be interesting to see if we could find any examples of poor Stormie Accuracy.
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Post by David »

Those little things always annoyed me. The Federation might be able to hit something if they actually used those sights.
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Post by David »

It also amuses me when they show the Enterprise crew practicing in the holodeck. No soldiers I've ever seen has held their weapon at the waist and hit anything with that much accuracy.
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Post by Rob Wilson »

David wrote:It also amuses me when they show the Enterprise crew practicing in the holodeck. No soldiers I've ever seen has held their weapon at the waist and hit anything with that much accuracy.
In "nor the Battle to the Strong" Jake Sisko mentions that Starfleet Security Officers spend 100's of hours in battle simulations... and yet throughout that entire episode we see amateur and illogical mistakes from Starfleet security officers. Just what the hell classes as a Battle Simulation in StarFleet? A slapping match? Handbags at ten paces? A water pistol fight?
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Post by Howedar »

Hell, if they played Counter-Strike on public servers on the net they'd have better tactics than that.

And believe you me, thats saying a lot...
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Post by Silver »

Now now Howedar that's just mean! The Fed security troops aren't THAT bad! I mean at least they don't hop around like a rabbit on crack or something.
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Silver wrote:Now now Howedar that's just mean! The Fed security troops aren't THAT bad! I mean at least they don't hop around like a rabbit on crack or something.
It would be infinitely preferable to thinking that a bedsheet was effective cover from enemy fire.
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Post by Silver »

A bedsheet? Where/when was this? :shock:
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Silver wrote:A bedsheet? Where/when was this? :shock:
Thta bastion of Starfleet tactical prowess "nor battle to the Strong", a Starfleet security officer moves forwards to behind some bedsheets hanging off a hospital trolley, rather than backwards to a huge stack of metal crates that had exactly the same line of sight.
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

Rob Wilson wrote:
Silver wrote:A bedsheet? Where/when was this? :shock:
Thta bastion of Starfleet tactical prowess "nor battle to the Strong", a Starfleet security officer moves forwards to behind some bedsheets hanging off a hospital trolley, rather than backwards to a huge stack of metal crates that had exactly the same line of sight.





Fuck, are you serious?
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote:
Silver wrote:A bedsheet? Where/when was this? :shock:
Thta bastion of Starfleet tactical prowess "nor battle to the Strong", a Starfleet security officer moves forwards to behind some bedsheets hanging off a hospital trolley, rather than backwards to a huge stack of metal crates that had exactly the same line of sight.
Fuck, are you serious?
Yep. That episode and Siege of AR-558 are so full of military blunders and fuck-ups that I was reduced to tears of laughter just watching them the first time. You want another one from "battle"?
try this : They need a generator from Bashirs shuttle, the hospital is full to overflowing with patints and the Hospital staff are shorthanded so who do they send outside the secured perimetre of the Base.... Bashir, a qualified and urgently needed surgeon to pick up and carry back something anyone else could have managed! Even if they had to give a Porter a map and a picture of the generator, it's still better than sending out a surgeon! and the updhot of thier genius, is that the surgeon ends up a patient himself.

Oh and one guard in a tunnel on lookout for Klingons, is killed because he is looking back over his shoulder the whole time. Bunch of fucking morons the lot of them!
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Post by BenRG »

I think that all of this goes to show how very, very long it has been since the Federation has been involved in a serious war of any kind.

In TOS, the Federation was fresh out of the Romulan War. There were people who remembered it and their equipment tended to reflect that (within the restraints of Mr. Roddenberry's utopian vision, of course). The 'Enterprise' had decentralised weapons controls, for instance, were each phaser battery had its' own control room that could (theoretically) continue to operate even if the bridge were disabled ('Balance of Terror' - my favorite episode of all time). Security units, despite their ridiculously visible uniforms, seemed fairly competent and could hold their own hand-to-hand against a group of Klingon borders ('Day of the Dove').

By the TNG episode, the entire Roddenberry uber-socialist utopia bit had completely corrupted the design and feel of the series to the point where there were no guards even on the most sensitive ship facilities (main engineering and the bridge). The Federation hadn't faced a serious millitary threat since the collapse of the Klingon Empire. After all, the 'Cardassian War' ended during Season 2 of TNG. The fact that it never affected the mission of the Federation Flagship suggests that it was just a prolonged series of minor border skirmishes. Only the Federation would secede a huge area of space for peace after such a minor conflict.

This long period of peace resulted in totally impractical handweapon designs, including the laughably unusable 'handivac' Phaser II pistol, which was rapidly re-modelled because even the actors couldn't use it, until it reached its' current pseudo-pistol form. However, the concept of a firing button on the most exposed surface of the body rather than in a protected spot (say, the traditional 'trigger' spot) remains an oddity unique to Trek. Roddenberry said that he wanted to make the weapons look like that people were consciously moving away from the projectile weapons designs of the Bad 'Ol Days. Why? The designs work and are the result of something like 200 - 300 years of engineering and ergonomics research? Why fix what ain't broken?

The Phaser III Carbine (my name for the original rifle) is an example of this ridiculous trend. Over-engineered, impractical to use (requiring an impossible sub-machinegun-on-the-shoulder-without-stock firing position) and with components that look like they will just snap off. On the other hand, Romulan and other-power designs look like contemporary weapons and are probably much more reliable. That Klingon carbine that Kira used in one DS9 episode is an excellent example.

After so long considering themselves the top of the Galactic food chain, above and immune to the trials of lesser species, the advent of the Borg, the Dominion War and first contact with the New Galactic Empire must have come as a dreadful shock to the utopian Federation... :twisted:
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

Move away from projectile weapons? That's a ridicolous reason.
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Post by BenRG »

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Move away from projectile weapons? That's a ridicolous reason.
It is. But it is also so, so Roddenberry.
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Post by Isolder74 »

Star Trek seems to design their weapons so they look nothing like a weapon. this may be due to their Pacifit tendancies
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