Can Federation destroy Death Stars

[Eternal_Freedom]

If you can smuggle a photorp into a the hangar bay of a Stardestroyer, you can probably blow it up with a single TM style 64MT device. Iirc we've had several EU instances of tiny explosive devices (smaller than proton torpedoes) causing substantial secondary detonations (probably the fuel and munitions stored) and taking out the whole ship in a spectacular explosion.

Off the top of my head, that was the ISD Steel Talon in the Death Star novel, destroyed by an explosive device of unknown yield smuggled into it's hanger

In "Before the Storm" the ISD Gnisnal is destroyed when it suffers a catastrophic accident involving it's hyperdrive motivator dropping into the reactor. This didn't destroy te vessel, just blew out most f the hull and irradiated the rest (I think)

And yet, in "Vector Prime" the battlecruiser Mediator is able to survive the detonation of a shuttle (that is apparently packed with nuclear exploives) in it's lower-aft hanger bay. The ship survived and IIRC was repaired and fought in several actions later in the YV war

[adam_grif]

The search function is busted, but we got multiple instances of ISD's becoming asploded from shit in their hangar bay when I made a thread to the effect of "how durable is wars armor?" The question I posed was how good are they at standing up to interior explosions, and the answer was "not very". There was a cutscene from one of the video games where Rebels smuggled a small bomb onto a shipping crate that got onto an ISD and it totally blew it up.

[Picard]

"latest developments involve the use of carbon nanotubes to improve toughness even further.[citation needed] Commercially produced or researched ceramics for such type of armour include boron carbide, silicon carbide, aluminium oxide (sapphire or "alumina"), aluminium nitride, titanium boride and Syndie, a synthetic diamond composite. "

Density of nickel is 8.912 g/cm^3. Density of iron is 7.874 g/cm^3. Density of materials used in cobham armor is 2.52, 3.21, ~4, 3.26, 4.52 and 3.52 grams per cubic centimeter. So you are utterly wrong. Or deliberately lying.

Current variants of chobham use depleted uranium (M1) or tungsten (Challenger 2) along with the standard ceramic and wire mesh. Ironically, this is stated on the same Wikipedia page you quoted. So, not only are you ignoring evidence, you're cherry-picking your own sources.

It is in "heavy metal modules" which means these modules are added later. And about cherry-picking sources and ignoring evidence, just look at main site for prime example of such behaviour.

I should not have to say this but 50% success rate does not equal a working item, it has worst odds than playing Russian roulette. It should be added that the Enterprise use the device for only a few minutes at most, the defect that killed the crew might take only slightly more than that to happen.

Pegasus was drifting throught system for some time (which is not specified), without any crew on-board, before it decloaked inside asteroid. It was probably days, maybe even weeks or months. It is implied that Pegasus's cloak blew up plasma relay systems, and later failed while ship was passing throught asteroid.

it is stated that they where replaced with millions of millimeter size heat exchangers.

Where? And why DSI had to use normal vent, why that passage on DSII lead right to reactor core, and why that thing at top looked that way?

No this is again a complete lack of understanding on your part. Asteroids are not "pure" metal a nickel iron core would not be a solid slab of nickel and iron.

Which means average density is somwhere between these two extremes.

But it is used on the Second Death Star. Particle shields are not made of "particles" they are used to repel matter, such as missiles, torpedoes, or ships.

It was deployed from emitter on Ednor.

Considering that the main site provided more proof than you

Lies, misinterpretation and complete bias are "proof"?
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... pedo1.html -OK, not quite lie, but he ignores fact that TNG TM is not canon, and fact that it is stated that TNG TM is not reliable inside that same technical manual.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Beam1.html
Mostly OK, but uses TM again. And fact that hand phasers have greater output than his stated output for shipboard phasers.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... stry1.html
1) Picard probably meant 150 member worlds, not major planets as in his interpretation.
2) There is absolutely no evidence that Federation fleet count included fighters. Given that mainstay of Dominion fleet is 90-meter-long "Attack Fighter", and that both Miranda and Hideki classes are of similar size, such interpretation makes no sense at all.
3) Uses Manuals again, despite them being clearly contradicted by higher canon. Also, 1500 Klingon ships were expected to be equipped with counter to Breen weapon within one day after it was discovered that Klingon ships can be rendered immune. Klingons previously suffered heavy losses in war with Federation and Dominion, yet their fleet is still able to field 1.5 times more ships than his first estimate. He does change it to 5000 ships later, which is close to low-end estimates from canon.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... sion1.html
Not so wrong, but ignores fact that Defiant entered warp inside system and exited it less than 1 star's diameter away from star (in order to catch runabout).

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... pedo1.html
Ignores every single instance of actual torpedo usage.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tac ... mbat1.html
Forgetting reaction times, eh?

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... ield2.html
Incorporating EU myths which are not supported even by EU itself.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Beam2.html
Dodonna was referring to defensive turbolasers. In such situation, superlaser is worthless, and irrelevant. They already know it can destroy entire planet, and that is all they need to know.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... ns-ST.html
Not only "assault rifle" (as he calls it) has full auto, or at least burst-fire mode, but old type-III has that mode too. Also, in Insurrection, weapon Worf used was most probably "Tetryon pulse launcher" - we already saw in DS9 that tetryons can disable electronic devices (like weapons).

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... ry-ST.html
Forgot Insurrection? Never-seen-but-mentioned disintegrator.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... ur-ST.html
Cardassians and Klingons do have armored vehicles (mentioned only). As for Federation, it is unknown.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... sc-ST.html
Grenades - we actually saw both stun and smoke grenades in usage (later example is from DS9 "The Siege").

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... ield1.html
Photon torpedoes are in high megaton - low gigaton range. So GCS shields must be in gigaton range.

More detailed analysis would take more time, so I can't do it right now.

[Picard]

Pity that is not what you said, you did say that he used a Romulan phase cloak.

I said that he used Romulan cloak, not Romulan phase cloak. Sorry if I was unclear.

[Imperial528]

"latest developments involve the use of carbon nanotubes to improve toughness even further.[citation needed] Commercially produced or researched ceramics for such type of armour include boron carbide, silicon carbide, aluminium oxide (sapphire or "alumina"), aluminium nitride, titanium boride and Syndie, a synthetic diamond composite. "

Density of nickel is 8.912 g/cm^3. Density of iron is 7.874 g/cm^3. Density of materials used in cobham armor is 2.52, 3.21, ~4, 3.26, 4.52 and 3.52 grams per cubic centimeter. So you are utterly wrong. Or deliberately lying.

Current variants of chobham use depleted uranium (M1) or tungsten (Challenger 2) along with the standard ceramic and wire mesh. Ironically, this is stated on the same Wikipedia page you quoted. So, not only are you ignoring evidence, you're cherry-picking your own sources.

It is in "heavy metal modules" which means these modules are added later. And about cherry-picking sources and ignoring evidence, just look at main site for prime example of such behaviour.

They are layers of metal used either as part of the chobham itself or as the backing plate of the chobham. And we don't know when they are integrated (during or post primary assembly), because the process of making chobham is classified, which the article also points out. Judging a classified assembly process by the name of a certain part category seems like a rather unwise assumption if you ask me.
It also states that these same layers used in chobham have been used in other armor systems that have a similar design to chobham. So your point that modern armor is less dense than nickel-iron asteroids is completely and entirely wrong whether or not the heavy metal layers are integrated or modular, they're still components of modern armor systems.

PS: Upon further reading of the article, it seems that the entire armor system is modular, so as to make repair easier and faster. Of course, just because something is modular does not mean it is added later, unless you consider a further step in the assembly to be later. All M1A2 Abrams tank's armor was installed with the DU mesh plate, and not as an upgrade.

PPS: Also, Picard, when the main site's content was written the TNG TM's cannon status was not invalid as it is now, and those pages haven't been updated for years. Although I have to say, you're not really doing any sort of analysis, you're really just saying the following: "The site says this! It is wrong!" without backing it up in any sort of way whatsoever.

[fallendragon]

Umm Picard, you can't just make claims, please show your work that shows what is wrong and why. As alot of your assumptions have clear and massive flaws in them.

[Big Phil]

No numbers, unsupported claims, no evidence, blah blah blah...

plus this little gem

More detailed analysis would take more time, so I can't do it right now.

Uncle Fucker, either show numbers and support your claims, or go the fuck away. I can't believe you've wasted 14+ pages on your idiocy without being titled or banned.

[Batman]

It is in "heavy metal modules" which means these modules are added later.

Which changes them being present how?

And about cherry-picking sources and ignoring evidence, just look at main site for prime example of such behaviour.

You can no doubt point out where Mike did so.

it is stated that they where replaced with millions of millimeter size heat exchangers.

Where?

Here though you are no doubt going to ignore this like you did every time it was brought up before.

And why DSI had to use normal vent

Who says it had to? It DID for some reason or other. The DS2 did NOT.

hy that passage on DSII lead right to reactor core,

A pity it didn't. That'd be all those turns and branches the forces going into the DS2 had to negotiate?

]and why that thing at top looked that way?

Could you translate from Picardspeak please? Because all I saw was a big round opening. I must have misses the sign saying 'thermal exhaust shaft.'

But it is used on the Second Death Star. Particle shields are not made of "particles" they are used to repel matter, such as missiles, torpedoes, or ships.

It was deployed from emitter on Ednor.

I see you continue to ignore the fact that the DS2 was not completed. Feel free to show the source that says the DS2 wouldn't have had particle shields when every other FTL capable craft in Star Wars does.
And that's blithely assuming the DS1 didn't have particle shields.

Considering that the main site provided more proof than you

Lies, misinterpretation and complete bias are "proof"?

By your standards, apparently so, as that's all you are doing.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... pedo1.html -OK, not quite lie, but he ignores fact that TNG TM is not canon, and fact that it is stated that TNG TM is not reliable inside that same technical manual.

Yeah. It's not like Mike has admitted a million times already that he did use the TM back when it was potentially canon and that he hasn't updated the site in a million years. Oh wait.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Beam1.html
Mostly OK, but uses TM again. And fact that hand phasers have greater output than his stated output for shipboard phasers.

As evidenced by what again? TNG and DS9 unequivocally put infantry phasers and equivalent weapons in the single figure MJ total category.
(You know, the figures actually stated in the series', not your completely made up numbers).
How, exactly, is this way in excess of Mike granting ship phasers TW firepower?

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... stry1.html
1) Picard probably meant 150 member worlds, not major planets as in his interpretation.

Which means the UFP are even smaller by comparison The 150 referring to major planets would have allowed for there being a number of minor ones. You just shot yourself in the foot once again.

2) There is absolutely no evidence that Federation fleet count included fighters.

You're welcome to show evidence against it anytime you feel like it.

Given that mainstay of Dominion fleet is 90-meter-long "Attack Fighter", and that both Miranda and Hideki classes are of similar size, such interpretation makes no sense at all.

The Miranda, which uses the Constitution saucer for the main hull, is of similar size as the Jem'Haddar attack bug? I'd brush up on my geometry if I were you.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... ield2.html
Incorporating EU myths which are not supported even by EU itself.

Blatant lie and/or ignorance of the EU.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Beam2.html
Dodonna was referring to defensive turbolasers.

Because-you say so.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... ield1.html
Photon torpedoes are in high megaton - low gigaton range. So GCS shields must be in gigaton range.

Actually photorps are in the midrange KT to none whatsoever range thanks to TFF.

More detailed analysis would take more time, so I can't do it right now.

More detailed analysis would require you to actually know what you're talking about, which you obviously don't.

[Kythnos]

Before I deal with the first part of your post, at least those part directed at me I want to address the last part of your post:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Beam1.html
Mostly OK, but uses TM again. And fact that hand phasers have greater output than his stated output for shipboard phasers.

This line has NO EVIDENCE that the main site page is wrong so you have proved my point for me. Telling me this is wrong means nothing to me unless you can back it up with episodes that show it to be wrong. But I will show you what I mean later on

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... stry1.html
1) Picard probably meant 150 member worlds, not major planets as in his interpretation.
2) There is absolutely no evidence that Federation fleet count included fighters. Given that mainstay of Dominion fleet is 90-meter-long "Attack Fighter", and that both Miranda and Hideki classes are of similar size, such interpretation makes no sense at all.
3) Uses Manuals again, despite them being clearly contradicted by higher canon. Also, 1500 Klingon ships were expected to be equipped with counter to Breen weapon within one day after it was discovered that Klingon ships can be rendered immune. Klingons previously suffered heavy losses in war with Federation and Dominion, yet their fleet is still able to field 1.5 times more ships than his first estimate. He does change it to 5000 ships later, which is close to low-end estimates from canon.

This line is slightly better but still lacking in evidence from the episodes. To change people's minds you need to show them facts not tell them "You are wrong!" You did say that getting those facts would require more time however you have been "debating" this way for weeks now.

Now on to the Cloak and how you should make a point:
You are arguing the wrong point you say that the phase-cloak works :

Pegasus was drifting throught system for some time (which is not specified), without any crew on-board, before it decloaked inside asteroid. It was probably days, maybe even weeks or months. It is implied that Pegasus's cloak blew up plasma relay systems, and later failed while ship was passing throught asteroid.

I agree with that statement in point of fact I stated the same thing when I showed that density might have an effect on the cloak in the old topic.

What I am stating is that the phase-cloak KILLED the crew of the Pegasus.

I should not have to say this but 50% success rate does not equal a working item, it has worst odds than playing Russian roulette. It should be added that the Enterprise use the device for only a few minutes at most, the defect that killed the crew might take only slightly more than that to happen.

Unless you disagree with Trek Canon it did and here is how we know:
The Crew mutinied and Riker grabbed a phaser to defend his captain. Then the members of the crew loyal to Pressman make a run for the escape pod. If Riker had killed all the mutineers they would not have had to abandon ship. Considering how important that device was to Pressman if he thought for a moment he could win he would have tried to retake the ship or at least recover the device. This proves that the crew at least most of them where alive went Pressman left the ship. Not long after they escaped they witnessed a LARGE explosion that they believed to be a warp core detonation. Since Star Trek ships don't normally flash kill the crew it had to be the Phase-cloak released some energy discharge that proved fatal. yet left the ship intact. The energy discharge could not have come from damage to the device as it worked fine for the enterprise, nor did the crew turn it off improperly as the device was still on days later. The most logical conclusion is that the Phase-cloak killed the crew.

(This is how you make an argument you show facts from a episode and then give a logical theory as to what happened. Notice that I did not just say "You are wrong" I showed you why I think you are wrong.)
If you can fined evidence from that episode that proves me wrong you should now post it for review.

Where?

You have been given links to the places several times if you don't feel the need to look into...

And why DSI had to use normal vent,

Because Tarkin thought that the fear of the station would keep anyone from attacking it, it is called the Tarkin doctrine. (Even when he was given proof of a weakness he refused to accept it as a danger.)

why that passage on DSII lead right to reactor core, and why that thing at top looked that way?
It was deployed from emitter on Ednor.

Because the Death Star 2 was "UNFINISHED" . If you remember the movie the construction was running behind and the Emperor sent Vader to speed it up. The crews barely got the super-laser operational before the Emperor arrived. You should notice that no Turbo-laser fire came from the DS2 because they had not finished most of the turrets nor are any tractor beams mention as coming from it. The same goes for the shield except that if the shield was projected from the Death Star the rebels would have known something was wrong. Remember this was one big trap and the shield generator on the planet was bait for Luke to come replace Vader, as the Emperor foreseen in his visions. (the fact that the Emperor was wrong about the outcome has little to do with how he set it all up)

[fallendragon]

What part of the first vent being a design flaw is so hard to understand?

And what is the evidense for fleet numbers inclueding fighters actually? As I am not finding that right at the moment...

And what does TFF stand for?

[Batman]

What part of the first vent being a design flaw is so hard to understand?

That'd be the part where it wasn't?

And what does TFF stand for?

That'd be The Final Frontier, AKA Star Trek V.

[fallendragon]

the first vent WAS a design flaw, one they correcting in the second Death Star by using many milimeter sized vents.

[Batman]

the first vent WAS a design flaw, one they correcting in the second Death Star by using many milimeter sized vents.

No it wasn't. It was a design vulnerability the Rebels managed to exploit thanks to Tarkin being an overconfident moron and having Luke on their side to make that one in a million shot.

[SeaTrooper]

The search function is busted, but we got multiple instances of ISD's becoming asploded from shit in their hangar bay when I made a thread to the effect of "how durable is wars armor?" The question I posed was how good are they at standing up to interior explosions, and the answer was "not very". There was a cutscene from one of the video games where Rebels smuggled a small bomb onto a shipping crate that got onto an ISD and it totally blew it up.

Yes, armoured ships are vulnerable to explosive devices detonated from within them. Is this a surprise? Any of the Iowa-class BBs would suffer equally disabling damage from comparatively smaller (than a nuke!) explosions inside their armoured decks. The whole idea of armour is to keep the bad juju outside.

What achieving this kind of kill or damage absolutely demands is incompetence from the deck crews and stormies in allowing such bombs onboard in the first place. That this has occurred is an inditement of those specific ship's companies, not the Imp Fleet as a whole. Relying on your enemy being stupid or incompetent is not a good idea, nor a guarantee of a long life.

[Picard]

This line has NO EVIDENCE that the main site page is wrong so you have proved my point for me. Telling me this is wrong means nothing to me unless you can back it up with episodes that show it to be wrong. But I will show you what I mean later on

Hand phasers are able to heat stones enough to glow - one example is in TNG episode "Silicon Avatar". Such feat requires energy in gigawatt range.

This line is slightly better but still lacking in evidence from the episodes.

Given that Wong never actually gave evidence from episodes/movies and yet is accepted by many here...
For Klingon fleet figures, watch DS9 episode "When It Rains". Alliance just lost 300 ships in Second Battle of Chin'toka, but single Bird of Prey was unaffected by Breen weapon. General Martok states that "by tomorrow they (Klingons) will have 1500 vessels ready for fight". Romulan commander warns him that with Dominion, Breen and Cardassian vessels, they will still be outnumbered 20 to 1. That means these 3 have minimum of 30 000 ships, after year of full-blown warfare.

Unless you disagree with Trek Canon it did and here is how we know:
The Crew mutinied and Riker grabbed a phaser to defend his captain. Then the members of the crew loyal to Pressman make a run for the escape pod. If Riker had killed all the mutineers they would not have had to abandon ship. Considering how important that device was to Pressman if he thought for a moment he could win he would have tried to retake the ship or at least recover the device. This proves that the crew at least most of them where alive went Pressman left the ship. Not long after they escaped they witnessed a LARGE explosion that they believed to be a warp core detonation. Since Star Trek ships don't normally flash kill the crew it had to be the Phase-cloak released some energy discharge that proved fatal. yet left the ship intact. The energy discharge could not have come from damage to the device as it worked fine for the enterprise, nor did the crew turn it off improperly as the device was still on days later. The most logical conclusion is that the Phase-cloak killed the crew.

Agreed.

[Big Phil]

This line has NO EVIDENCE that the main site page is wrong so you have proved my point for me. Telling me this is wrong means nothing to me unless you can back it up with episodes that show it to be wrong. But I will show you what I mean later on

Hand phasers are able to heat stones enough to glow - one example is in TNG episode "Silicon Avatar". Such feat requires energy in gigawatt range.

Exactly how much energy is required to make stones glow. Pick a type of rock, and show us your math.

[Picard]

http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/08/hand-phasers.html

[Picard]

This line has NO EVIDENCE that the main site page is wrong so you have proved my point for me. Telling me this is wrong means nothing to me unless you can back it up with episodes that show it to be wrong.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... index.html

We do hear about Klingon and Cardassian armored vehicles, but nothing of Federation ones. Having said that, bigger mistake is that he sayst in „miscellaneous“ section that Federation has no grenades (we saw smoke grenades being used in DS9 episode „The Siege“), body armor (we see it used in „Siege of AR-558“ and „Nor the Battle to the Strong“).


http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... ns-ST.html

Hand phaser is short-range weapon, and has ability to auto-aim. He is mostly right about type-III. Plus he ignores that Worf's launcher was probably tetryon pulse launcher, which deactivates enemy weaponry („Blood Oath“ (DS9) involves tetryon bombardment from claoked BoP in order to deactivate weapons at compound; also, weapon Worf was holding fired pulse). In „Hide and Q“ type-I phaser achieved similar level of destruction to that launcher, and phaser rifle Worf was carrying was more than capable of hitting targets at that distance.
He also ignores fact that all phaser rifles to date had burst-fire ability.


http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... sc-ST.html

Forgot „isomagnetic disintegrator“? Also, we SEE Federation body armor in both „Siege of AR-558“ AND „Nor the Battle to the Strong“. Liar.


http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... rison.html

„Stormtrooper armor is capable of stopping small-arms fire.“ What about incident when stormtroopers were killed by handguns? And these have inferior DET firepower when compared to phaser rifles, or even to hand phasers. Also we never saw any automatic weapon during entire Original trilogy (or new one, for that matter – closest thing we saw to automatic weapon is LAAT/i side weapons), while Federation phaser rifles are capable of at least burst-fire.


http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... ield1.html

1. Area of shields is what matters, not area of ship.
2. „Pegasus“ asteroid is around 1.419 x 10e11 cubic meters in volume. According to his own calculator, vaporizing such asteroid would take between 130 and 254 gigatons. We can conclude that they would use between 140 and 240 torpedoes, which gives yield of 542 megatons to 1.8 gigatons.


http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... ield2.html

Even with his „half an hour“ estimate for battle with MonCal cruiser, Imperial shields are around 900 megatons.



http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... stry2.html

Allright, this time he actually realizes that „official“ =/= „canon“. Second, Han Solo is resident of time and place in question, and clearly knows capabilities and strength of Empire – he actually must know that, due to him being smuggler. For example, I know that Croatian Navy currently has 5 missile boats, and that there are plans for building frigattes. He does seem to acknowledge that quote about Death Star having equivalent firepower to half of Imperial fleet was about defensive emplacements. Plus he lies about Trade Federation blockade fleet. Also, Ednor tactical display is contradicted by physical model, showing DSII is 160 kilometers wide.



http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... stry1.html

150 planets from Picard's quote are (given context, and fact that Federation had 1000 worlds as of 23rd century) only member planets. Which means that Earth is in that count, but Alpha Centaury colonies (being Earth's colonies) are not, regardless of their size. Also, he lies that 600 ship count for Federation fleet in „Operation Return“ included fighters. He again uses non-canon sources as opposed to analysis of canon. In end, however, he drops his estimates in favour of Federation having 5000 ships, which is closer to canon estimates (which range from 7000 to 30 000 capital ships).




http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... sion1.html

Uses technical manuals and does not even try to actually analyze canon (probably knows that analyzing canon would not be favourable for him). But he is right about warp drive.



http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Beam2.html

Does not even bother to provide analysis of G-canon turbolaser firepower. Plus he says that trench-mounted guns are light ones, and from that he provides firepower for heavy guns, despite fact that we have quote from canon novelization, and logic which dictates that trench-mounted guns are medium ones. Also, while superlaser is reason for attacking Death Star, from tactical point of view, it is irrelevant. All pilots already knew that superlaser can destroy planet, and any other information is irrelevant. That is not so with defensive emplacements, thought. As for superlaser, we have direct quote from ANH that „entire moon would be just another mass-energy conversion problem“ for Imperial gunners. So it is not pure DET.



http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Beam1.html

Too much technobabble, so I'll keep away from it.



http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... pedo2.html

Mostly OK. He forgot to mention that proton torpedoes are 1 kiloton, maximum (as per his own calculator, and ROTJ proton torpedo explosion inside Death Star).




http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... pedo1.html

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Where to begin? He uses non-canon technical manual to provide firepower and ignores every single instance of canon fire. Manual might have been canon when he wrote his site, but episodes were always higher canon.



http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... nsor2.html

Rebels detected Imperial fleet just after it dropped out of hyperspace, not before. Imperial vessels were unable to detect powered-down Millenium Falcon siting at back side if bridge of one ISD.



http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Comm1.html

Uses technical manual.


http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... ower2.html

Hypermatter myth. We already know that Empire uses fusion.



http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... ower1.html

Wrong, wronger, Wong. Data specified 12.75 billion gigawatts „per something“, and ultra-dense deuterium is only thing which fits. Also ignores magic of NDF, when clinging to it when it suited him before. Plus, uses Technical Manuals.



http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tac ... mbat2.html

Federation has planetary shields, and Imperial vessels have to exit at some distance from planet, giving enough warning.



http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tac ... mbat1.html

Forgots possibility that navigation is carried over by computer, which is not programmed to react to „Picard's manouver“. Main advantage of manouver was creating illusion of second ship dropping out of warp to help first one.



http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tac ... ding2.html

„Superior firepower?“ Plus, boarding starship throught one hole in hull leaves possibility of defenders countering boarders at point of entry, thus gaining superiority (not to mention that Federation infantry weapons have rapid-fire ability, which their Imperial counterparts lack).



http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tac ... ding1.html

„Stormtrooper armor protects from nerve gas?“ Riight:
http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Wars/Epis ... m-face.jpg




http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tac ... uver1.html

And yet we repeatedly hear about sublight combat occuring at tens of thousands of kilometers (90 000 in TOS; in TNG BoP has optimal combat range in excess of 40 000 kilometers).



http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tac ... uver2.html

More myths (SW having superior firepower, „forgetting“ superior ST weapon ranges etc.).

[fallendragon]

proof of the auto aim?
proof it was an tetryon pulse launcher?
proof that the quote refernaces defence emplancements?
show cannon estimates and work?
proof of use of nuclear fusion?

[Eleas]

http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/08/hand-phasers.html

Oh my Lord. If this screed isn't the dumbest thing I've ever read, it's certainly not for lack of trying.

While many people tend to disregard this in order to claim lower phaser firepower, using "chain reaction" effect[sic!] seen during TNG, that simply doesn't stand, beacouse[sic!] we already know phasers are able to heat stones to 8 000 ° C, and NDF majic[sic!] just cannot do that. Only energy transfer can.

Except "we" know nothing of the sort. This is what you're trying to prove, after all. You're creating an obvious circular argument in which you begin from the very conclusion you purport to demonstrate.

In order to get high end of phaser firepower, I will use two examples - from TOS, which seems to be clean vaporization, with no chain reaction, and therefore low end of phaser firepower, especially given that we talk about 24th and not 23rd century phasers. Basis is same, thought. Another is TNG vaporization, where hand phaser is capable of vaporizing stone.

I see. Your claim, then, is that in both these cases, DET was the mechanism used?

I am very sorry for the poor bastards in the same room as that firefight, in that case. If the intense thermal bloom and shrapnel didn't kill them, they would have been steam-boiled in an instant by a roomful of violently expanding steam. Their lungs would literally have cooked, and of other atmospheric effects, the less said the better. Those are the inevitable conclusions we must draw from your model, after all.

Phasers are able to heat stones enough to glow (again - no chain reaction or other technobablle, just good ol' energy transfer - example "Silicon Avatar"). As already said, 8 000 ° C temperatures are being created by phasers.

Specific heat capacity of granite is 1.534 J(cm^3 x K). That means, to raise temperature of 1 cubic cm of granite by 1 kelvin (kelvin is essentialy same as °C) you need to bring 1.534 joules. Now, to heat granite from starting temperature of 25 ° C to 8 000 ° C we need to raise its temperature by 7975 K. So we have equation E= 1.534 J (6 000 000 cm^3 x 7975 K). (6 cubic meters is most we ever saw being cleanly vaporized). That gives us 7.34 x 10e10 joules or 73.4019 gigajoules.

And the comedy goes on. I would begin by pointing to what is undoubtedly a travesty of mathematics, but there's no need - your premises are beyond idiotic to start with. Simply by looking at an object and treating it as a generalized blackbody (keeping in mind that this is a model), the glow will tell us how hot said object is.

Code: Select all

T, K	 oC	   Subjective colour

750	  480	  faint red glow
850	  580	  dark red
1000	 730     bright red, slightly orange
1200	 930	  bright orange
1400	1100	  pale yellowish orange
1600	1300	  yellowish white
> 1700  > 1400   white (yellowish if seen from a distance)

As we can see, back in what we like to call "reality" (stop me if you need an in-depth explanation, kiddo), the ephemereal glow we see in the episode is in no way close to the 8000 fucking degrees Celsius you pulled out of thin air. Even if your unfounded statement about phasers heating an object to 8000 ° C under completely different circumstances were true (as opposed to, you know, yet another instance of blatant fanwank), that hardly means it could heat anything and everything to the same fucking temperature. Instead -- no surprise -- even with DET assumed (in the face of evidence and sanity), the actual temperatures would very generously be around 1000 degrees Celsius. Not content with that, you of course assume the stone would be heated uniformly, when there's no known weapon capable of doing so and no evidence to that effect. Realistically, a weapon would impart its energy unevenly, causing the stones in question to deform, melt, shatter. But if we pretend the heat was evenly distributed, we can get much higher figures! TEH WIN!

Jesus Christ. My dandruff has more sense than this.

[Kythnos]

Stone example firepower

Phasers are able to heat stones enough to glow (again - no chain reaction or other technobablle, just good ol' energy transfer - example "Silicon Avatar"). As already said, 8 000 ° C temperatures are being created by phasers.

Specific heat capacity of granite is 1.534 J(cm^3 x K). That means, to raise temperature of 1 cubic cm of granite by 1 kelvin (kelvin is essentialy same as °C) you need to bring 1.534 joules. Now, to heat granite from starting temperature of 25 ° C to 8 000 ° C we need to raise its temperature by 7975 K. So we have equation E= 1.534 J (6 000 000 cm^3 x 7975 K). (6 cubic meters is most we ever saw being cleanly vaporized). That gives us 7.34 x 10e10 joules or 73.4019 gigajoules.

If we go with "Silicon Avatar" example, we have two hand phasers heating up approx. 2-5 cubic meters of rock within 5 seconds. That gives us 2.4544 x 10e10 to 6.136 x 10e10 joules total or 4.9088 x 10e9 - 1.2272 x 10e10 joules per second - that is 5 to 12.272 GW, or 2.5 to 6.2 GW per phaser.

Let take a look at that scene for a minute, to start with no mention of 8000 c is given at any time during the episode. Which renders the math not as useful as you might think, according to your blog the 8000c comes from ToC but you fail to mention where?
What really puts your math in doubt is using such high numbers, Rock is generally a liquid at 2000c. According to the Doctor Marr the cave rocks are nothing truly unique. Yes Data points out that it has trace amounts of two minerals but even he does not defend the rocks has being amazing in any way.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnE6d9Hh ... re=related[/youtube]
At 6:50ish the rocks glow orange then stop glowing they don’t cool down, going thru the normal colors of cooling metal. This could be a nitpick of a lazy FX or just a cost cutting measure for a unimportant element however it is completely disproved in the next scene.
At 7:30 Riker and Data blast a stalactite so that it glows white. If this was glowing White hot the heat of several thousands of degrees over 9 hours, that it took the Enterprise to get there, would have killed everyone in the cave, more than likely in minutes.
In the next scene when Worf breaks into the cave he pushes the rocks down to open a path. If such a high amount of heat was used, even to just make the rocks glow would have fused them into one, at 8000c it would have been a solid slab of cooled rock blocking the path.

So this scene does not back up your claims as well as you might think.


This too is based on flawed logic:

While many people tend to disregard this in order to claim lower phaser firepower, using "chain reaction" effect seen during TNG, that simply doesn't stand, beacouse we already know phasers are able to heat stones to 8 000 ° C, and NDF majic just cannot do that. Only energy transfer can.

You can get heat from Chemical reactions. If you add an Alkyl to an Acid you get heat, not from the Direct energy transfer from the act of pouring, but a reaction from the two chemicals. I am not saying that the phaser is a chemical reaction just showing a flaw in your logic.

[Big Phil]

Huh, reading through Picard's "calculations" was something else. Now that he's been banned, there's no point in continuing to try and "debate" with him, and Kythnos and Eleas have pointed out the flaws in his calculation much better than I can. It's been a while since an actual Trektard came in here with a Wall of Ignorance, No Numbers, and refused to accept canon. Kind of refreshing, in an amusing sort of way.

[Eternal_Freedom]

RIP Picard, we shall not miss you. You were possibly (hopefully) the Wall of Ignorance's last stand, we shall never again read your posts that were at once both amusing and embarassing. Good riddance you bastard

[fallendragon]

I think part of me is going to miss Picard. He was entertaining if nothing else.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I think part of me is going to miss Picard. He was entertaining if nothing else.

Then you should join spacebattles, he just signed up there.