Imperial Fleet VS Enterprise-D's from the Quantum Fissure

[Formless]

Pretending. Got it.

The Emperor once demonstrated the ability to create wormholes with his force powers. It was called a Force Storm. Given the kind of fine manipulation over time and space required to create such a storm (Palpatine used one to capture Luke Skywalker from god knows how many lightyears away), the level of destruction they can cause, the fact that such storms can be stopped by the user pretty effortlessly, and the fact that our, er, villain already knows how to use this and the base techniques, Palpatine closes the rift and destroys the fleet of Enterprises all while chuckling to himself and eating nachos (what?) from the safety of his Coruscant palace. The hatred needed to fuel the storm will come from reading your posts and trying sincerely to take in all the stupidity.

[darthy]

Pretending. Got it.

The Emperor once demonstrated the ability to create wormholes with his force powers. It was called a Force Storm. Given the kind of fine manipulation over time and space required to create such a storm (Palpatine used one to capture Luke Skywalker from god knows how many lightyears away), the level of destruction they can cause, the fact that such storms can be stopped by the user pretty effortlessly, and the fact that our, er, villain already knows how to use this and the base techniques, Palpatine closes the rift and destroys the fleet of Enterprises all while chuckling to himself and eating nachos (what?) from the safety of his Coruscant palace. The hatred needed to fuel the storm will come from reading your posts and trying sincerely to take in all the stupidity.

If I remember correctly, Palpatine had great difficulty doing it and it was pretty unstable when he did. Actually if the fissure closes, it should return all of their enterprise's to their proper realities like it did in the episode. I'm not sure you'd call that a victory on either side though, it's just a way to avoid the fight altogether. I'd take it as a concession that it was one enemy the empire wasn't willing to battle. Saying Palpatine has the power to seal a quantum fissure is a bit of a stretch to me.

[Darth Tedious]

Looks to me like they're pretty focused on the warp core for some reason. What are you proposing caused the explosion instead?

As Enigma already pointed out, and you ignored:

Going by visuals alone, it was neither a engine overload or a warp containment field collapse. The explosion originated in the general area in the forward saucer area where the torpedo hit.

I already reminded you of this in my previous post and you continued to ignore it.

In episode "timescape" the shuttle was able to survive witnessing a warp core breach without being destroyed.

Because time started running backwards and the explosion was reversed before it rerached the shuttle.

In generations, the saucer section survived the impact from a warp core breach.

Survived? It was critically damaged and crashed onto a planet. You have seen Generations, right?

How about the runabouts viewing the destruction of a galaxy class starship in episode "Jem'hadar".

They were several kilometers away, which is why you can't see them in the shot at 2:19.

In episode "all good things" each enterprise's destruction did not destroy the others.

Besides the fact that the three ships did not exist in the same time, it is well worth considering that all the events of 'All Good Things' were an illusion presented to Picard by Q, which would explain why the future Enterprise could acheive warp 13- is it possible to travel faster than infinite speed by a factor of 3?

If all of the millions of ships blew up they'd probably get replaced within moments.

You seem to have ingored bilateralrope's logic:

The chain reaction takes time to propagate and the debris from a ship will take time to clear an area. When the clear long enough for a ship to appear, they are still likely to receive a high speed piece of debris soon after. So the end result is a volume of space filled with explosions and spitting out debris.

[Formless]

I was going to just point out that the Empire has subspace technology (meaning that there is no reason the Empire can't figure out the magic reset button the same way the Enterprise crew did) but I think most people can figure out why I chose to bring up Force Storms given my first post in the thread.

Besides, just because its labeled "quantum" doesn't make it magic or, for that matter, quantum in nature. It pulls ships in from other universes, right? That means it would be better termed a spacetime effect, just like the Force Storm. At the very least, there should be some pretty interesting effects when the two phenomena interact.

Lastly, who gives a shit about "winning" when there is a spacetime anomaly threatening to destroy the universe (or at least fuck up interstellar traffic)? No government or military thinks that way, they would just close the damn thing and get on with life. This is a natural disaster, not a fight. Yours isn't the only way to view this scenario, nor the most sane. It is consistent with the attitude of an obsessive trektard, however.

[Enigma]

Just in case you've never seen one, this is what a warp core breach looks like.

Bad example since it's not a galaxy class starship. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm9Y3TmMXxg shows the enterprise-D having a warp core breach at 6:41. Here's another one of the enterprise-D having a warp core breach http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxxTUXVblAA at 0:39. We see another in star trek generations and episode "all good things". What we see in parallels is a warp core breach as well. Maybe they didn't have much anti-matter left or the environment contained the explosion more I don't know but definitely a warp core breach.

First link shows the explosion happening at the top of the neck between the impulse engines. The second link shows that the explosion happening at the left nacelle.

One could rationalize that the explosion in Timescape happened because as the warp core was about to breach, it sent a power surge through to the weakened nacelle causing a feedback and kaboom! goes the E-D.

One could also rationalize the explosion in Cause and Effect as the warp core blowing its "top" as it exploded (judging by the E-D's MSD, the warp core was in the center of the stardrive a bit in front of the back end of the neck). It takes some finagling and squinting of the eyes to see it that way.

In All Good Things, only the present E-D shown a clear warp core breach, it was even in the correct place. The older E-D's explosion happened at the center of the saucer section.

But in Parallels, the explosion happened nowhere near the warp core, let alone the engineering section or even the stardrive itself!

By comparing all of those explosions, only the present E-D in AGT depicted a true warp core breach with Cause and Effect coming at a close second. The others can be waved off as something else exploding with the triggering of the warp core breach being secondary.

If you compare the destruction of the Equinox and the AGT's present version of E-D, you can see the similarity. Both breaches happening in the center of the stardrive section and being the primary source of the explosion. Those are the best examples of warp core breaches.

[Azron_Stoma]

why the future Enterprise could acheive warp 13- is it possible to travel faster than infinite speed by a factor of 3?

I always assumed that by that point they got tired of saying 9.99etc and switched back to the TOS scale or something similar, where 10 was not the limit.

[Darth Tedious]

why the future Enterprise could acheive warp 13- is it possible to travel faster than infinite speed by a factor of 3?

I always assumed that by that point they got tired of saying 9.99etc and switched back to the TOS scale or something similar, where 10 was not the limit.

Warp 10 was stated in Voyager to be infinite speed (and turns people into newts).

[darthy]

As Enigma already pointed out, and you ignored:

I didn't ignore it, just misread it. I thought he said "it was either" instead of "it was neither".

Survived? It was critically damaged and crashed onto a planet. You have seen Generations, right?

Yes even after an attack with a klingon bird of prey that knew their shield frequency, they survived. They had bad luck by being next to the atmosphere without the drive section to escape it.

You seem to have ingored bilateralrope's logic:

Here's some new logic. Since enterprise's can supposedly appear anywhere, they merge inside all of the Imperial ships crippling them all until they all die from ongoing continuous merging.

I was going to just point out that the Empire has subspace technology (meaning that there is no reason the Empire can't figure out the magic reset button the same way the Enterprise crew did) but I think most people can figure out why I chose to bring up Force Storms given my first post in the thread.

Besides, just because its labeled "quantum" doesn't make it magic or, for that matter, quantum in nature. It pulls ships in from other universes, right? That means it would be better termed a spacetime effect, just like the Force Storm. At the very least, there should be some pretty interesting effects when the two phenomena interact.

*shrugs* we can't be sure. The only reason the quantum fissure is even visible is because the Enterprise-D was enhancing it with its warp field. Odds are it'd become invisible again after they got destroyed so the Imperial Fleet wouldn't know what the heck was going on.

Lastly, who gives a shit about "winning" when there is a spacetime anomaly threatening to destroy the universe (or at least fuck up interstellar traffic)? No government or military thinks that way, they would just close the damn thing and get on with life. This is a natural disaster, not a fight. Yours isn't the only way to view this scenario, nor the most sane. It is consistent with the attitude of an obsessive trektard, however.

It's not really going to destroy the universe because it's just a tv show. Secondly, everyone here is supposed to care about who wins since I as the OP said "who wins?".

First link shows the explosion happening at the top of the neck between the impulse engines. The second link shows that the explosion happening at the left nacelle.

One could rationalize that the explosion in Timescape happened because as the warp core was about to breach, it sent a power surge through to the weakened nacelle causing a feedback and kaboom! goes the E-D.

One could also rationalize the explosion in Cause and Effect as the warp core blowing its "top" as it exploded (judging by the E-D's MSD, the warp core was in the center of the stardrive a bit in front of the back end of the neck). It takes some finagling and squinting of the eyes to see it that way.

In All Good Things, only the present E-D shown a clear warp core breach, it was even in the correct place. The older E-D's explosion happened at the center of the saucer section.

But in Parallels, the explosion happened nowhere near the warp core, let alone the engineering section or even the stardrive itself!

By comparing all of those explosions, only the present E-D in AGT depicted a true warp core breach with Cause and Effect coming at a close second. The others can be waved off as something else exploding with the triggering of the warp core breach being secondary.

If you compare the destruction of the Equinox and the AGT's present version of E-D, you can see the similarity. Both breaches happening in the center of the stardrive section and being the primary source of the explosion. Those are the best examples of warp core breaches.

Just in case you've never seen one, this is what a warp core breach looks like.

Bad example since it's not a galaxy class starship. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm9Y3TmMXxg shows the enterprise-D having a warp core breach at 6:41. Here's another one of the enterprise-D having a warp core breach http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxxTUXVblAA at 0:39. We see another in star trek generations and episode "all good things". What we see in parallels is a warp core breach as well. Maybe they didn't have much anti-matter left or the environment contained the explosion more I don't know but definitely a warp core breach.

First link shows the explosion happening at the top of the neck between the impulse engines. The second link shows that the explosion happening at the left nacelle.

One could rationalize that the explosion in Timescape happened because as the warp core was about to breach, it sent a power surge through to the weakened nacelle causing a feedback and kaboom! goes the E-D.

One could also rationalize the explosion in Cause and Effect as the warp core blowing its "top" as it exploded (judging by the E-D's MSD, the warp core was in the center of the stardrive a bit in front of the back end of the neck). It takes some finagling and squinting of the eyes to see it that way.

In All Good Things, only the present E-D shown a clear warp core breach, it was even in the correct place. The older E-D's explosion happened at the center of the saucer section.

But in Parallels, the explosion happened nowhere near the warp core, let alone the engineering section or even the stardrive itself!

By comparing all of those explosions, only the present E-D in AGT depicted a true warp core breach with Cause and Effect coming at a close second. The others can be waved off as something else exploding with the triggering of the warp core breach being secondary.

If you compare the destruction of the Equinox and the AGT's present version of E-D, you can see the similarity. Both breaches happening in the center of the stardrive section and being the primary source of the explosion. Those are the best examples of warp core breaches.

All of your reasoning assumes that explosions which are seen outside of the ship are where the explosions originated inside of the ship.

I always assumed that by that point they got tired of saying 9.99etc and switched back to the TOS scale or something similar, where 10 was not the limit.

who knows...

TNG "where no one has gone before"

LAFORGE: Captain, we're passing warp ten!

[Formless]

*shrugs* we can't be sure. The only reason the quantum fissure is even visible is because the Enterprise-D was enhancing it with its warp field. Odds are it'd become invisible again after they got destroyed so the Imperial Fleet wouldn't know what the heck was going on.

When they have subspace technology, hyperdrive, and their Force using leader can manipulate timespace with magic spells? Why, one would almost think you were ignoring the ramifications of the argument...

Also, the Enterprise themselves considered the fissure to be an unstable danger in the episode in question, so why the heck would they attack the Empire? Why wouldn't they too focus on closing the fissure? Alternatively, even if the Empire doesn't have the ability to close the fissure themselves they can certainly find some version of the Enterprise crew who either listens to reason or at least will do it after sufficient arm twisting. For instance, the Commander Riker who was getting his ass kicked by the Borg would probably do it in exchange for a chance to eat, nap, and reload. Again, there is no reason to project trektard motives onto the parties involved except pathetic trektard egotism.

It's not really going to destroy the universe because it's just a tv show. Secondly, everyone here is supposed to care about who wins since I as the OP said "who wins?".

1. Your failure at reading comprehension is so amazing I almost wonder if it wasn't a childish attempt at poisoning the well. Obviously when I talk about the "universe" in this context I am talking about the fictional universe containing Star Trek, Star Wars, and this moronic scenario you've contrived.

2. No, you can't simply state by fiat that everyone cares about winning what isn't even a fight when the phenomenon in question in the episode in question by its very nature pulls Enterprise crews from disparate universes with disparate worldviews. Even if we assume that the Empire decides to treat this as a fight, they aren't fucking Klingons who glorify combat for combat's sake. Their goal in this scenario can be as simple as "stop the Federation attack" which is neatly done by closing the fucking fissure. Wars are not won by stupidly shooting everything that moves that looks like the enemy, they are won by setting goals that ensure the survival of the state and as much of its assets as possible. Put it another way, the last guy standing is the guy who won the fight, even if its motherfucking Mr Rogers and he never threw a punch. Obviously you've never touched Sun Tzu.

In other words, your entire scenario is fucking stupid from beginning to end, and resorting to attempts to restrict either the Empire's behavior or the Enterprises' by Authorial Fiat is a de facto concession of that fact.

[Azron_Stoma]

Warp 10 was stated in Voyager to be infinite speed (and turns people into newts).

In TNG, DS9 and VOY scale Warp 10 = infinite speed,
TOS and ENT, or "Cochrane" Scale Warp 10 = 1000c, Warp 20 = 8000c etc.

There is no "warp infinity" using the TOS Scale, so I assumed that in the "All Good Things" future they had adopted a revised version of it.

[Serafina]

Warp 10 was stated in Voyager to be infinite speed (and turns people into newts).

In TNG, DS9 and VOY scale Warp 10 = infinite speed,
TOS and ENT, or "Cochrane" Scale Warp 10 = 1000c, Warp 20 = 8000c etc.

There is no "warp infinity" using the TOS Scale, so I assumed that in the "All Good Things" future they had adopted a revised version of it.

The TNG-era-scale is bloody stupid anyway. Who constructs a scale that tops out at something you can't even theoretically reach? A proper scale is either open-end or ends when a (theoretical) limit is reached (for example if you are measuring the material composition of something, you can't have more than 100% there). The TNG-scale doesn't make any sense. Going to MORE than in infinite speed makes even less sense.


By the way, darthy seems to be incapable of grasping the concept of infinity:

I predicted you were going to say something like this. This is why the scenario is set up where the fleet's goal is to overpower the armada. I'm asking who wins? What happens afterward is not important. I don't think the enterprise's will appear forever myself. The quantum fissure is an intersection of many quantum realities. Even if an infinite number of quantum realities exist, there's no reason to think they all intersect at this one quantum fissure.

darthy, you are a dumbass. Even if just 0.000000001% (or any arbitrarily low number) of all the infinite universes intersect there, then the number will STILL be infinity. Any fraction of infinity is still infinity (and the other way round as well, any multiple of infinity is still infinity). Which is another reason why the TBG-warp scale is stupid.


Now it is of course possible that all these parallel universes are like pearls on a string and only those within a certain distance actually intersect here. Example: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 Only universes within 3 units of each other can interact trough the *insert technobabble* 4 could interact with 1-7, but not with 8-10. That would limit the amount of universes that can interact with each other to a finite number, even if there are infinite universes. Of course, if you could truly cross over into another universe, you could still travel to each one, raising it to infinity again - someone from 4 could travel to 7 and from there to 10, and from there to 13, and so on.

We actually have very good evidence that the number of universes intersecting here is not infinite. If it was, even the lowest rate/chance of appearance for the ships would result in - guess what - infinite ships appearing at once (unless you resort the the dimensional cosmology above).



Regardless of all of the above, you can only go with the following:
1: a finite amount of universes is crossing over.
2: an infinite amount of universes is crossing over.
If 1), then there is not evidence that you would get sufficient numbers to harm the Empire - you could only go with the numbers seen in the show, everything else is a no-limits-fallacy. Go too high and you still have the problems given with 2)
If 2), then NO ONE wins. The universes just get's crunched by the infinite number of ships, which carry infinte mass any energy and therefore infinite gravity, which creates a giant universe-consuming black hole. Game over - incidentially much sooner for the Federation than the Empire, because they are closer. The Empire might have millenia or more left, depending on how exactly gravity works and on their distance to that black hole. Or not, because that black holes event horizon would actually grow at an infinite speed, breaking the lightspeed barrier (infinity is just crazy like that) and morph into a newt and possibly propagate faster than it's own graviational influence. In other words - crazy, no limit-fallacy shit happens.


Lesson learned: Don't mess with infinity, and don't wank unknown phenomena. Also, learn the definition of the word "win" - you did not win if you are dead, especially if you die fist.

[Darth Tedious]

Because Empire came from a long time ago (and must have used time travel to get there), they could return home and never even see the problem, as it happens in the far future, as far as they're concerned.

[Serafina]

Secondly, everyone here is supposed to care about who wins since I as the OP said "who wins?".

You don't get to dictate the thread just because you created it. You are essentially saying "don't say what i don't want to hear". There can be no proper debate in such a way.
No on here has gone off-topic. We didn't suddenly start to discuss the Death Stars mechanism, or an entirely unrelated topic. We ARE on topic - and saying "this topic is stupid and doesn't make any sense the way the OP created it".

[darthy]

By the way, darthy seems to be incapable of grasping the concept of infinity:

darthy, you are a dumbass. Even if just 0.000000001% (or any arbitrarily low number) of all the infinite universes intersect there, then the number will STILL be infinity. Any fraction of infinity is still infinity (and the other way round as well, any multiple of infinity is still infinity). Which is another reason why the TBG-warp scale is stupid.


Now it is of course possible that all these parallel universes are like pearls on a string and only those within a certain distance actually intersect here. Example: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 Only universes within 3 units of each other can interact trough the *insert technobabble* 4 could interact with 1-7, but not with 8-10. That would limit the amount of universes that can interact with each other to a finite number, even if there are infinite universes. Of course, if you could truly cross over into another universe, you could still travel to each one, raising it to infinity again - someone from 4 could travel to 7 and from there to 10, and from there to 13, and so on.

I'm not sure if you're arguing for an infinite number of intersections or against it but here's why I think it could be against it.

Alright here's the dialogue evidence of why it might not be infinite:

DATA: I believe the quantum fissure we discovered is a fixed point across the space time continuum. A keyhole which intersects many other quantum realities.
TROI: What do you mean, quantum realities?
DATA: For any event, there is an infinite number of possible outcomes. Our choices determine which outcomes will follow. But there is a theory in quantum physics that all possibilities that can happen, do happen in alternate quantum realities.
WORF: And somehow I have been shifting from one reality to another.
...
WESLEY: I've used a differential pulse to analyze over ten million quantum states within the fissure, but I still haven't found one with your signature. This may take some time, sir.

According to "theory" an infinite number of these quantum realities exists. An infinite number of them may exists but the quantum fissure is an intersection of "many" quantum realities. It sounds like it could be a finite number of intersections, over 10 milllion mind you but still finite. Plus what are the odds that one of the enterprise's that appeared just happened to have worf's quantum signiture if the fissure intersects an infinite number of realities? If the enterprises are selected at random and there were infintie then the probability whould be 0 if we use limits P= (lim x-> infinity) 1/x = 0

You don't get to dictate the thread just because you created it. You are essentially saying "don't say what i don't want to hear". There can be no proper debate in such a way.
No on here has gone off-topic. We didn't suddenly start to discuss the Death Stars mechanism, or an entirely unrelated topic. We ARE on topic - and saying "this topic is stupid and doesn't make any sense the way the OP created it".

If that's the case then I've been misled by Darth Tedious. He made it sound like I write the conditions of the scenario and can modify them if I leave something unclear in the main post.

Because Empire came from a long time ago (and must have used time travel to get there), they could return home and never even see the problem, as it happens in the far future, as far as they're concerned.

They came by wormhole which traveled through space and time which closed right after they got their fleet through.

[Serafina]

I'm not sure if you're arguing for an infinite number of intersections or against it but here's why I think it could be against it.

Both. I presented points for both infinite crosssections, infinite number of universes (the latter does not automatically mean the former) and a finite number of interections. But not vigorously defending a single point is apparently beyond your grasp.

According to "theory" an infinite number of these quantum realities exists. An infinite number of them may exists but the quantum fissure is an intersection of "many" quantum realities. It sounds like it could be a finite number of intersections, over 10 milllion mind you but still finite. Plus what are the odds that one of the enterprise's that appeared just happened to have worf's quantum signiture if the fissure intersects an infinite number of realities? If the enterprises are selected at random and there were infintie then the probability whould be 0 if we use limits P= (lim x-> infinity) 1/x = 0

Oh, look, you didn't grasp what i said at all.
You have three szenarios:
-There are infinite universe and as long as the "quantum fissure" is at the same point in some of them, then they can cross over. If that is the case, regardless of how few universes have that fissure at that point, you'll automatically have an infinite number of crossovers - because infinity times/divided by anything is still infinity.
-There are infinite universes, but you can only interact with those "close to you" in some sort of cosmology. I presented that with a 1D-plane (forwards or backwards, the numbers i used above), but it could of course be 2D, 3D, 4D or more. However, then you can NOT claim infinite numbers of ships.
-There are simply only a finite number of universes. If that is the case, you can again not claim infinte numbers of ships.

If you can not claim infinite numbers of ships, then we can only use what we saw in that episode (and reasonable extrapolations).

Plus what are the odds that one of the enterprise's that appeared just happened to have worf's quantum signiture if the fissure intersects an infinite number of realities?

Again, you do NOT get infinity.
If there are infinite universes, there are infinite copies of the exact same universe. Therefore, the odds of Worf appearing trough a non-limited number of intersections is 100% - in fact it should be infinite itself, there should be an infinite number of these Worfs.


If i were you (and if you actually understoof what i wrote), i would go with the "cosmology"-argument.
Again, imagine a string of pearls (or whatever). This string is infinitely long with an infinite number of pearls (universes).
However, you can only travel a limited number of universes away from your home universe - as if held back by a elastic band or a string. From your point of view, that limits the number of universes you can travel to to (travel distancex2+1) - if you can travel up to ten universes away, you could visit only 20 universes (plus your home universe).
This is a way to have "infinite universes" without automatically having infinity in everything that involves a crossover between any of them. The whole thing can of course work with more than two dimensions. The one thing you can NOT do is to allow travel withut that string - if you can make another universe your "home universe", then you can still travel infinite distances and you get the whole infinity mess all over again.
Or, as i already said: Do not mess with infinity, because you don't understand it.


You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to claim that there are infinite Enterprise-Ds, then you will automatically get an infinite number of them and destroy the universe. If you do not want to do that, then you have a limited number of ships - and that limit is set by what we see in the episode.

If that's the case then I've been misled by Darth Tedious. He made it sound like I write the conditions of the scenario and can modify them if I leave something unclear in the main post.

Yes, you can clarify the szenario. What you can NOT do IS dictate how we discuss your szenario. When we think that your szenario is stupid and doesn't make sense, we can say so and you can't just declare it invalid.

[darthy]

Oh, look, you didn't grasp what i said at all.
You have three szenarios:
-There are infinite universe and as long as the "quantum fissure" is at the same point in some of them, then they can cross over. If that is the case, regardless of how few universes have that fissure at that point, you'll automatically have an infinite number of crossovers - because infinity times/divided by anything is still infinity.
-There are infinite universes, but you can only interact with those "close to you" in some sort of cosmology. I presented that with a 1D-plane (forwards or backwards, the numbers i used above), but it could of course be 2D, 3D, 4D or more. However, then you can NOT claim infinite numbers of ships.
-There are simply only a finite number of universes. If that is the case, you can again not claim infinte numbers of ships.

hmm first off you cannot perform multiply or divid operations on infinity because infinity is not part of the set of real numbers. It's not a number period. It's merely a property which means without bound. Even if we could perform such operations on infinity, you're assuming that the fissure intersects a percentage of infinity. We don't know that it does, it could just be intersecting a finite number of them.

Again, you do NOT get infinity.
If there are infinite universes, there are infinite copies of the exact same universe. Therefore, the odds of Worf appearing trough a non-limited number of intersections is 100% - in fact it should be infinite itself, there should be an infinite number of these Worfs.

Not according to data when we look at this bit of dialogue from the episode:

DATA: All matter in the universe resonates on a quantum level with a unique signature. That signature is constant. It cannot be changed through any known process. It is the basic foundation of existence.

If there were an infinite number of the same copy of any given universe then the quantum signatures of all matter in those universes would be the same too. That wouldn't make the signature very unique then now would it.

If i were you (and if you actually understoof what i wrote), i would go with the "cosmology"-argument.
Again, imagine a string of pearls (or whatever). This string is infinitely long with an infinite number of pearls (universes).
However, you can only travel a limited number of universes away from your home universe - as if held back by a elastic band or a string. From your point of view, that limits the number of universes you can travel to to (travel distancex2+1) - if you can travel up to ten universes away, you could visit only 20 universes (plus your home universe).
This is a way to have "infinite universes" without automatically having infinity in everything that involves a crossover between any of them. The whole thing can of course work with more than two dimensions. The one thing you can NOT do is to allow travel withut that string - if you can make another universe your "home universe", then you can still travel infinite distances and you get the whole infinity mess all over again.
Or, as i already said: Do not mess with infinity, because you don't understand it.

imagine a string of pearls huh ok lady. I'm not sure the fissure would put matter inside other matter since we never see it. It's entirely possible that one of these enterprise's has advanced knowledge on how to seal a quantum fissure without using worf.

[Serafina]

hmm first off you cannot perform multiply or divid operations on infinity because infinity is not part of the set or real numbers. It's not a number period. It's merely a property which means without bound. Even if we could perform such operations on infinity, you're assuming that the fissure intersects a percentage of infinity. We don't know that it does, it could just be intersecting a finite number of them.

You still don't get it, dumbass.
IF "intersection" means (as suggested in the episode) "technobabble at the same point in space and time", then you WILL have a percentage chance for that.
Also, guess WHY you can't actually multiply/divide infinity? Because of what i already said - that every outcome will still be infinity.

If there were an infinite number of the same copy of any given universe then the quantum signatures of all matter in those universe would be the same too. That wouldn't make the signature very unique then now would it.

Resorting to technobabble again, huh? Then you'll have an infinte number of universes who are identical in everything BUT *technobabble". That's just how infinity works, bitch.
Oh, and if you want to argue that there is a limited number of "quantum signatures", so that you can't have that - if that was the case, you could not have infinite universes with different signatures, because

imagine a string of pearls huh ok lady. I'm not sure the fissure would put matter inside other matter since we never see it. It's entirely possible that one of these enterprise's has advanced knowledge on how to seal a quantum fissure without using worf.

What's wrong with that example? Too complex for you? Or are you trying to make fun of me because i used such a "lady-example"? In that case, i welcome everyone who knows me to have a very good laught at you.
Also, thanks again for giving me yet another reason why your bullshit no-limits-fallacy-wankfest won't work. With an infinite numbr of universes, you will have an infinite number of Enterprises who have the capability and will to close the rift. Therefore, it will be closed (an infinite number of times in fact) and the whole thing doesn't happen anyway. And they can't be stopped by those who do not want to close the rift, since both are of equal numbers (both infinite).

Again:
Do not mess with infinity



You know, you are really a stereotypical trektard. Your MO: "Take phenomenon i do not understand, assign properties to it as i like, do not apply any limits to it=I WIN".
You know next-to-nothing about this "Quantum Fissure". FFS, we don't even know if the ships could leave it. Yet you are speculating that it is SOMEHOW linking an infinite number of universes while still only producing a finite number of ships (already a logical impossiblity), that they will somehow NOT materialize inside each other, that they will cooperate and so on and so on.

[mr friendly guy]

Darthy, no one has said it yet: but whenever someone tries to concoct a magic "I win" button based on a one shot treknobabble effect/device that never appears after the episode it debuted in, regardless of whether or not it would actually work (being one shot means having very little data to go on, after all), the implicit suggestion is that the Federation can't win any other way. I'm not sure if that's something that you want to suggest, implicitly or no, but I'm just going with what you've written elsewhere.

The way I see it, if a Trektard can come up with these one shots because they realise the Federation can't win the "usual way", then its not inconceivable that some Federation big wig won't think to try the same as an act of desperation. I mean the Federation may not be the most competent people in sci fi, but I am going to suggest they are better than a Trektard. One could argue that the "usual way" the Federation wins is technobabble blah blah technobabble rather than anything which resembles actual tactics and strategy.

Of course I am not sure the Federation can replicate the events from that episode, so the OP has to set the invasion just as the right moment in TNG history, but I think these one shots solutions are interesting to look at, regardless of the motivations of who proposes it.

Star Wars writers tend to avoid plots that hinge on making the audience feel stupid.

Uh, Karen Traviss and 3 million clone troopers.

[Metahive]

It would be more fruitful if they'd concentrate on the Federation's strengths then, which lie within diplomacy and negotiation instead of brute-forcing a military victory via desperate, potentially universe busting tactics. Who says that a contact between the two powers absolutely needs to result in warfare? The Empire can be reasoned with on occasion after all and the Prime Directive would mean that the Federation had to abstain from the Galactic Civil War anyway.

[Eternal_Freedom]

This is true. As it's the Enterprise, thoe command crew is chiefly human, which might make the Empire at least curious as to how it happenned, and hence less likely to open fire blithely. This of course gives one of the other 275,000 E-D's time to close the fissure and returning all the other E-D's, leaving the scenario as a standard Imperial-Federation First Contact situation.

[Enigma]

All of your reasoning assumes that explosions which are seen outside of the ship are where the explosions originated inside of the ship.

If the explosion starts from the nacelle then that is where it originates! If the explosion happens at the neck, then that is where it originates! If it happens on the saucer section, obviously that is where the explosion originates! Having the warp core breach is only secondary to the fact.

Look at Timescale, you clearly see the nacelle being blown to bits before the whole ship blew up. It started from the nacelle then it dominoed. Same in Cause and Effect and in Parallels and with the older E-D. Each one of them had a point of origin where the explosion happened away from the warp core! Go to Memory Alpha and look for the E-D's MSD (master screen display) and you'll see where the warp core is.

The present E-D in AGT was the "textbook" example of a warp core breach being the primary cause of the ship's destruction. You see an explosion above and below where the core was located. Same with the U.S.S. Equinox. It's explosion originated in the center of the stardrive.

All other examples are warp core breaches but secondary to the fact.

[Enigma]

I'd also like to add in that the destruction of the stardrive section in Generations matches precisely the same as the Equinox. Also, the origin of the explosion is the exact same location as the present E-D in AGT. Further proof that all other times the E-D was destroyed primarily from another original culminating with the warp core breaching. Warp Core Breach in progress in Generations. Go to 5:08 to see the location of the explosion. You can clearly see that it came from the center of the stardrive section.

[Formless]

The way I see it, if a Trektard can come up with these one shots because they realise the Federation can't win the "usual way", then its not inconceivable that some Federation big wig won't think to try the same as an act of desperation. I mean the Federation may not be the most competent people in sci fi, but I am going to suggest they are better than a Trektard. One could argue that the "usual way" the Federation wins is technobabble blah blah technobabble rather than anything which resembles actual tactics and strategy.

Of course I am not sure the Federation can replicate the events from that episode, so the OP has to set the invasion just as the right moment in TNG history, but I think these one shots solutions are interesting to look at, regardless of the motivations of who proposes it.

Oh, I never said that they weren't. But it would help if the folks who proposed them treated them more like a RAR and less like a clash of civilizations, because when you get down to it that's what they were in Star Trek to begin with. The end result of any such one shot is always going to be "can the Empire deal with this like the Enterprise/DS9/Voyager crew did, and if so how?"

Star Wars writers tend to avoid plots that hinge on making the audience feel stupid.

Uh, Karen Traviss and 3 million clone troopers.

Yeah, that was on my mind when I said "tends to avoid", but its a different kind of stupid than the "technobabble solution for a technobabble problem" cliche in Star Trek so its not quite comparable/wouldn't make for a good VS or RAR thread.

[Omeganian]

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sector_%28Star_Trek%29 a sector is a cube shape 20 light years across giving a volume of 8,000 cubic light years or about 6.76 x 10^51 cubic meters. According to the star trek tech manual the enterprise's dimensions are 642.51 meters x 463.73 meters x Height: 195.26 meters so we'll pretend each enterprise-D takes up the volume of a rectangular prism with a volume of 58,177,944 cubic meters. So at least 1.16x10^44 enterprise's in 3 days if we assume the rate of appearances remains constant and they continue to appear for 3 days. Somehow I don't think the imperial fleet can overpower them.

I think a number sufficient to collapse the sector into a black hole can already be defined as filled up. Taking a globe with an 8000 CLY volume, it's, if I calculated correctly, about 1.76 E34 ent's. Still quite a bit of work for the Imperials. (Unless they have Palpatine available to open a big enough Force Storm gateway and dump them into intergalactic space. Or open another conduit to spawn Executors.)

[Purple]

Why can't he just spawn a portal to get his fleet back home while the feds black hole their own galaxy?