What star wars clips should this guy have used?

[Battlegrinder]

That's the thing about comparing, say, TIEs vs X-Wings - both are purpose-built combat craft. The Runabouts and various shuttlecraft we see are actually utility craft with defensive capabilities. The closest to a purpose-built vessel that we see is the Defiant, and while pretty impressive, it is quite a bit bigger than SW's fighters, and requires a decent sized crew. I wonder how well a "new" Millennium Falcon would function, with a full crew.

The UFP also has those Peregrine fighters from "Sacrifice of Angels", and the Delta Flyer might count as a more combat capable version of standard shuttles (and speaking of fighters/shuttles, does anyone know where that "fighters are counted as part of UFP fleet" things on the main SDN site comes from?).

[Adam Reynolds]

Regarding capital ship manuverability, while I don't tend to argue that it can be considered visually canon in the same sense as the movies, Clone Wars features smaller capital ships maneuvering heavily in fleet engagements. In the episode Grievous Intrigue, it is mentioned that Obi-Wan's larger than normal fleet of smaller ships would make him harder to defeat.

And while we don't see much of the battle, the fact that Corellian Corvettes survive the battle of Endor indicates that they must be harder to hit than Star Destroyer sized craft. Though this could also be due to the fact that they would be a lower priority target.

That's the thing about comparing, say, TIEs vs X-Wings - both are purpose-built combat craft. The Runabouts and various shuttlecraft we see are actually utility craft with defensive capabilities. The closest to a purpose-built vessel that we see is the Defiant, and while pretty impressive, it is quite a bit bigger than SW's fighters, and requires a decent sized crew. I wonder how well a "new" Millennium Falcon would function, with a full crew.

The Falcon with a full crew was shown in ROTJ, and it was extremely effective. It actually maneuvered alongside fighters. Presumably for that battle it was also upgraded somewhat. If nothing else, we never see the missile launchers used at any other point.

A "new" generic Millennium Falcon(is the YT-1300 still canon?) would likely be worse rather than better. Because the ship was so heavily modified, there was no way for it to be fully effective unmodified. And that takes away something of the special nature of the Falcon itself. Though the old EU had Mara Jade's similarly and much newer customized ship as better than the Falcon in a particular engagement. Though her ship was obviously newer and I believe significantly bigger, as it was able to carry an X-wing internally.

As for close-quarters combat - there's a scene in AoTC, where clone troopers actually charge at and jump on top of several of the spider droids to destroy them.

It was actually ROTS, on Utapau when Obi-Wan faces General Grievous. And they do so by shooting them rather than any fancy martial arts tricks, as any professional soldier would do. Martial arts have little relevance for modern soldiers. This is not to say that it is completely irrelevant, but it is hardly the most decisive factor in any proper engagement.

In any case, martial arts are hardly something the UFP should take pride in. They are regularly overrun by warriors using blade weapons in futuristic combat. The fact that shootouts devolve into fist fights are an example of the incompetence of their soldiers, not of competence. And it is interesting that the main characters are usually quite effective in said combat as compared with the extras. This indicates that Starfleet close quarters combat training is extremely ineffective at preparing soldiers for actual combat, probably due to a lack of proper live fire training in which there is a real chance of death(however small). The fact that the holodeck is entirely simulated danger likely leads to their soldiers panicking under real life combat conditions. Despite what young Spock said in the '09 film, simulations will never fully give this feeling. Would you fly in an airplane with a pilot whose only experience was in simulators?

Compare this with the untested Clone Army in AOTC. Despite a galaxy which had not had a galactic war in a millenia, they were extremely effective on their first combat deployment, showing true professionalism in their baptism by fire. Though the fact that they operated in the open quite heavily is less than ideal tactics, that could have been due to improvements in weapons technology in that millenia. This is speculation based on a now non-canon source, but it is notable that in KOTOR, personal shields were heavily used, while in the PT era they were only used by extremely expensive battle droids and the uniquely advanced tech base of the Gungans, indicating that a higher power output could be needed as compared to historically. Thus the armored clones might be somewhat unprepared for the increased lethality of modern weapons in such a large scale battle. Notice that the only major open battle from TPM featured shielding.

The UFP also has those Peregrine fighters from "Sacrifice of Angels", and the Delta Flyer might count as a more combat capable version of standard shuttles (and speaking of fighters/shuttles, does anyone know where that "fighters are counted as part of UFP fleet" things on the main SDN site comes from?).

I believe that was Mike's way of justifying the inflated fleet counts in DS9 when compared to TNG. In The Best of Both Worlds the UFP was only able to muster 40 ships to defend Earth. At various battles in DS9 they are able to muster hundreds for individual battles. There is little other way to reconcile this divide. I believe it might have been mentioned at some point in the series as well, though I can't really remember it.

[Elheru Aran]

The general logic of the UFP 40 ships to defend Earth was that they weren't expecting an attack and those were the closest Starfleet craft they could muster at extremely short notice (only a few days, perhaps even hours IIRC).

The difference between BoBW and DS9 has also been attributed to increased starship production in the post-TNG Federation. I don't know how legit that is, though.

[Purple]

Given that all of starfleet personnel seem to be officers and that their ships seem to be full of specialist crew I very much doubt ship production is their bottleneck. They might very well be able to produce many more ships than they can effectively crew. So in times of war when they skip on unnecessary crew members and only use the bare minimum required for a fight they might well be able to throw ships out rapidly.

[Adam Reynolds]

The general logic of the UFP 40 ships to defend Earth was that they weren't expecting an attack and those were the closest Starfleet craft they could muster at extremely short notice (only a few days, perhaps even hours IIRC).

The difference between BoBW and DS9 has also been attributed to increased starship production in the post-TNG Federation. I don't know how legit that is, though.

The problem with that explanation is that the losses were considered strategically significant, while much larger fleet losses in DS9 were not considered as problematic. Out of universe, we have to simply consider that the real reason was that when the made DS9 they wanted larger battles in the style of B5 or SW, rather than the handful of capital ships shown operating together in TOS or the at most dozens of TNG. In the earlier parts of the continuity, the assumption seemed to be that starships were extremely expensive and a rather limited commodity,

Given that all of starfleet personnel seem to be officers and that their ships seem to be full of specialist crew I very much doubt ship production is their bottleneck. They might very well be able to produce many more ships than they can effectively crew. So in times of war when they skip on unnecessary crew members and only use the bare minimum required for a fight they might well be able to throw ships out rapidly.

But if that were the case, we would expect them to only have new ships in service. And we see them use 40 year old ship designs. I wonder if their bottleneck is fuel production. Because antimatter must be generated artificially, and at great energy loss, there is likely little way to ramp up production quickly. But that would also not entirely explain why older designs are still in service, so there must be some other factor in production as well. For the Federation, it is likely that Starfleet keeps using old vessels because there is no reason not to.

Though your explanation would fit the TNG episode(Redemption Part 2) in which Data takes command of a ship due to a lack of experienced officers.

[Purple]

But if that were the case, we would expect them to only have new ships in service. And we see them use 40 year old ship designs.

There is more to production than just manufacture. Starfleet seems to do a good job of designing ships that last. And if a modernized 40 year old ship can still do a good enough job it is preferable to build those using what ever production lines you have mothballed than to retool your shipyards. I would not at all be surprised if these old ships were in fact newly produced off modernized versions of old designs. Especially if those old designs were more combat oriented. For all we know (and I suspect this to be true) it might well be easier and more cost effective to replace the power plant and weaponry on an old ship than to gut a galaxy to remove all the needless non combat functions without endangering the whole assembly.

[SilverDragonRed]

The general logic of the UFP 40 ships to defend Earth was that they weren't expecting an attack and those were the closest Starfleet craft they could muster at extremely short notice (only a few days, perhaps even hours IIRC).

The difference between BoBW and DS9 has also been attributed to increased starship production in the post-TNG Federation. I don't know how legit that is, though.

I thought the explanation was that with the years of advanced warning since the destruction of the Odyssey, Starfleet was able to recall ships from almost all corners of their territory to fight the Dominion.

[Battlegrinder]

I would not at all be surprised if these old ships were in fact newly produced off modernized versions of old designs. Especially if those old designs were more combat oriented.

That would be my guess as well. IIRC, the few times that we've seen the interiors of TOS and TNG era Miranda/Excelsior class ships (the actual halls, corridors, cargo/shuttle bays, not just the bridges, since bridges are modular and can be swapped out) they've looked different, would would support the idea that while the design is old, the ship is not.

[TOSDOC]

I would not at all be surprised if these old ships were in fact newly produced off modernized versions of old designs. Especially if those old designs were more combat oriented.

That would be my guess as well. IIRC, the few times that we've seen the interiors of TOS and TNG era Miranda/Excelsior class ships (the actual halls, corridors, cargo/shuttle bays, not just the bridges, since bridges are modular and can be swapped out) they've looked different, would would support the idea that while the design is old, the ship is not.

Eh, could be both. Didn't Geordi tell Scotty in "Relics" that Scotty's transport might still have been in service if it hadn't crashed?

[WATCH-MAN]

The general logic of the UFP 40 ships to defend Earth was that they weren't expecting an attack and those were the closest Starfleet craft they could muster at extremely short notice (only a few days, perhaps even hours IIRC).

The difference between BoBW and DS9 has also been attributed to increased starship production in the post-TNG Federation. I don't know how legit that is, though.

The problem with that explanation is that the losses were considered strategically significant, while much larger fleet losses in DS9 were not considered as problematic.

Please provide evidence for this claim.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The Federation was stated to need a year to recover from losing 39 ships at Wolf 359. They lose 98 ships at Tyra and while it's a serious blow, the only comment is "we can't keep taking loses like that, not if we expect to win." If losing 39 ships was a major disaster, losing almost the entirety of the Seventh Fleet would be a "fuck we may not recover from this at all."

[WATCH-MAN]

The Federation was stated to need a year to recover from losing 39 ships at Wolf 359.

And?

That doesn't mean that this is seen a major disaster.

It may be regarded as a human disaster - with these thousands of crewmen killed.

But it doesn't say anything about how much of Starfleet was destroyed.

They need one year to build 39 more ships than was planned originally.

That are round about 10 days (365 : 39) for each additional ship - without any evidence that they are cutting back on their already planned ship building. And this is in peacetime.

And as they need more time to train officers to man their ships, one can only conclude that they already had more than enough officers to man these 39 additional ships.

If losing 39 ships was a major disaster, losing almost the entirety of the Seventh Fleet would be a "fuck we may not recover from this at all."

Do not make what you want to prove to the premise of your argument. That's called circular logic.

Losing 39 ships in peacetime can be regarded as a disaster - while loosing the same amount of ships in a war is regarded as normal.

Look at the List of United States Navy losses in World War II and now imagine, only a fraction of that amount is reported as lost tomorrow in the news and what an uproar this would cause.

[Ted C]

The general logic of the UFP 40 ships to defend Earth was that they weren't expecting an attack and those were the closest Starfleet craft they could muster at extremely short notice (only a few days, perhaps even hours IIRC).

The difference between BoBW and DS9 has also been attributed to increased starship production in the post-TNG Federation. I don't know how legit that is, though.

The problem with that explanation is that the losses were considered strategically significant, while much larger fleet losses in DS9 were not considered as problematic. Out of universe, we have to simply consider that the real reason was that when the made DS9 they wanted larger battles in the style of B5 or SW, rather than the handful of capital ships shown operating together in TOS or the at most dozens of TNG. In the earlier parts of the continuity, the assumption seemed to be that starships were extremely expensive and a rather limited commodity,

Given that all of starfleet personnel seem to be officers and that their ships seem to be full of specialist crew I very much doubt ship production is their bottleneck. They might very well be able to produce many more ships than they can effectively crew. So in times of war when they skip on unnecessary crew members and only use the bare minimum required for a fight they might well be able to throw ships out rapidly.

But if that were the case, we would expect them to only have new ships in service. And we see them use 40 year old ship designs. I wonder if their bottleneck is fuel production. Because antimatter must be generated artificially, and at great energy loss, there is likely little way to ramp up production quickly. But that would also not entirely explain why older designs are still in service, so there must be some other factor in production as well. For the Federation, it is likely that Starfleet keeps using old vessels because there is no reason not to.

Though your explanation would fit the TNG episode(Redemption Part 2) in which Data takes command of a ship due to a lack of experienced officers.

Another possibility is that their fleet of hundreds or a few thousand ships is spread so thinly through their territory (and travel times can be so long, often "months at high warp") that they have a constant logistics problem. The Dominion War lasted long enough that they were able to consolidate ships from all over their territory into the combat zone. In "Best of Both Worlds", they simply didn't have time to call back ships from the ass-end of Federation space to defend Earth, nor did they have time to call in ships to blockade the Romulan/Klingon border in "Redemption".