Your opinions: Minimum phaser setting to affect a stormtrooper?

[Borgholio]

I don't care how good my armor is. Unless it's powered armor, I'm going to be knocked on my ass if someone hits me in the head with a 20+ pound rock. Stormtrooper armor doesn't protect against momentum.

[darthy2]

You can't really back it up. The sources that people would point at to suggest that Ewoks have some kind of mega strength are no longer canon sources. Just going by what we see, Ewoks throwing rocks at storm troopers knocks them out. You could look at the velocity of the rocks and see how weak of a force this is. Poking at them with sticks incapacitates them too. Plus we know that a storm trooper's armor as weak as it is, also has weaknesses at the joints.

Indiscriminate reply to my entire post after you read, specifically, the first sentence... wow.

Still think you're trolling. Still happy to make reply if anyone who isn't an idiot wants me to.

Never mind that Ewoks throwing rocks is *kinetic* energy at work. Phasers don't use that at all (random people getting thrown about aside, that's always been a puzzle).

What about in star trek 3 when that klingon goes flying after being shot by Kirk? In theory, someone could throw a phaser at a stormstrooper just as the Ewoks threw those rocks. No minimum phaser setting is necessary.

[Elheru Aran]

Indiscriminate reply to my entire post after you read, specifically, the first sentence... wow.

Still think you're trolling. Still happy to make reply if anyone who isn't an idiot wants me to.

Never mind that Ewoks throwing rocks is *kinetic* energy at work. Phasers don't use that at all (random people getting thrown about aside, that's always been a puzzle).

What about in star trek 3 when that klingon goes flying after being shot by Kirk? In theory, someone could throw a phaser at a stormstrooper just as the Ewoks threw those rocks. No minimum phaser setting is necessary.

Don't be a moron. Phasers can't be much more than say 1lb, max. And would you really throw your only weapon away?

Yeah... you're definitely hitting that 'troll' metric pretty hard.

[Simon_Jester]

Ah, Elheru! Finally, a sentient lifeform commenting! Great!

It's not even just kinetic energy, it's momentum transfer.

I bet if I threw a five pound rock at a guy who's busy fighting, wearing modern infantry body armor, he'd probably fall down. Maybe if he were specifically braced to take it he'd be fine, but not if he wasn't specifically expecting it.

And that's likely, even though a five pound rock falling on him at the speeds I could reasonably throw it at probably packs less kinetic energy than a bullet. It's not all about energy, it's about momentum- and about the design of armor. To stop someone from being knocked down by a thrown rock you'd design the armor for that- to lower their center of mass, to have lots of cushy padding, and so on.

To stop someone from being injured by a bullet or a laser you'd design the armor totally differently, out of entirely different materials. The ideal armor against personal energy weapons would probably be... Hm. Some kind of diffuse-reflective (i.e. white) material, which ablates (boils away) under intense heat, but takes away the dangerous heat energy from the hit. It would probably be fairly thick since you want it to ablate away as much of the energy as possible, like the reentry heat shield of a space capsule.

Correspondingly, the thickness of the individual plates means that if the plates are too close together at the joints, the armor will bind up. Try wrapping inch-thick layers of foam padding tightly around your arm both above and below the elbow, and bend your elbow. You can't. You have to have a cutout at the elbow so that the plates can bump against each other, and the smaller you make the cutout, the more the limitations on how you can bend your arm. So for that reason, your anti-blaster armor is probably going to have large gaps at the joints. Because even if such a gap is relatively large, it's too small to be targeted by enemy gunmen armed with blasters from typical combat distances.

You'd definitely want helmets with visual sensors in the helmet, with some kind of anti-flash measures so the user isn't blinded by the brightness of his own weapons, too.

So it's at least plausible that if you really were designing armor in a setting where everyone routinely uses energy weapons, you'd make it look quite a bit like stormtrooper armor. Sure, we see a lot of personal energy weapons that CAN penetrate stormtrooper body armor, but then in real life a lot of guns can penetrate body armor designed to stop bullets, too. And nobody except maybe athletics departments issues armor that would be well designed for stopping people from throwing large rocks.

[darthy2]

Never mind that Ewoks throwing rocks is *kinetic* energy at work. Phasers don't use that at all (random people getting thrown about aside, that's always been a puzzle).

What about in star trek 3 when that klingon goes flying after being shot by Kirk? In theory, someone could throw a phaser at a stormstrooper just as the Ewoks threw those rocks. No minimum phaser setting is necessary.

Don't be a moron. Phasers can't be much more than say 1lb, max. And would you really throw your only weapon away?

Yeah... you're definitely hitting that 'troll' metric pretty hard.

Those rocks did not look heavy either. I was just speaking theoretically about the phaser.



^storm troopers lost to that remember

[Eternal_Freedom]

No, the Stormtroopers on Endor lost because Chewie and a couple Ewoks stole an AT-ST. Prior to that the Ewoks were being routed.

A few Stormtroopers got overwhelmed by Ewoks, yes, Ewoks that outnumbered them by a lot and were pelting them with rocks from higher ground.

[NecronLord]

No, the Stormtroopers on Endor lost because Chewie and a couple Ewoks stole an AT-ST. Prior to that the Ewoks were being routed.

Where to?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Routed as in defeated decisively, not directed.

[Elheru Aran]

No, the Stormtroopers on Endor lost because Chewie and a couple Ewoks stole an AT-ST. Prior to that the Ewoks were being routed.

Where to?

Presumably to their forest haunts? It was where they *lived*. Rewatching the battle in a clip on Youtube:

--Ewoks barrage the Imperial forces with arrows, killing a few of them.
--The stormtroopers scatter into the forest to chase down the Ewoks. Some of them are taken down with bolas, others by Ewoks jumping them, knocking them over and bashing on them with clubs and stone hatchets.
--After this the Ewoks are trying to fight the AT-ST's and stormtroopers, but they have notably poorer fortune against the walkers who can pretty much blow them up with impunity.

It's not until Chewbacca captures an AT-ST that the fortunes of battle start turning. It's also notable that apparently the Ewoks took some time to prepare the field of battle before launching their ambush of the Imperial forces; Wookieepedia suggests that they were building traps and such in the wee hours after the Rebels convinced them to join their cause. That's like if a conventional force of guerrillas laid out pre-dug foxholes and firing positions with ammunition supplies, mines, and other prepared booby-traps against a more powerful force; it'd give them as much trouble as the Ewoks gave the Imperials.

[Esquire]

You can't really back it up. The sources that people would point at to suggest that Ewoks have some kind of mega strength are no longer canon sources. Just going by what we see, Ewoks throwing rocks at storm troopers knocks them out. You could look at the velocity of the rocks and see how weak of a force this is. Poking at them with sticks incapacitates them too. Plus we know that a storm trooper's armor as weak as it is, also has weaknesses at the joints.

As the only necessary source to demonstrate that Ewoks have impressive strength for their size is Return of the Jedi, I am confident in asserting that the conclusion is still valid. Ewoks routinely throw rocks the size of a human torso about as easily as an Ewok-sized human might lift a piece of painted foam. Such a rock might easily weigh twenty pounds, and if you really think getting hit on the head by a twenty-pound rock isn't enough to incapacitate somebody, I invite you to try it and report back.

[darthy2]

You can't really back it up. The sources that people would point at to suggest that Ewoks have some kind of mega strength are no longer canon sources. Just going by what we see, Ewoks throwing rocks at storm troopers knocks them out. You could look at the velocity of the rocks and see how weak of a force this is. Poking at them with sticks incapacitates them too. Plus we know that a storm trooper's armor as weak as it is, also has weaknesses at the joints.

As the only necessary source to demonstrate that Ewoks have impressive strength for their size is Return of the Jedi, I am confident in asserting that the conclusion is still valid. Ewoks routinely throw rocks the size of a human torso about as easily as an Ewok-sized human might lift a piece of painted foam. Such a rock might easily weigh twenty pounds, and if you really think getting hit on the head by a twenty-pound rock isn't enough to incapacitate somebody, I invite you to try it and report back.

I'm talking about this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HvZuUJE21U

[Elheru Aran]

I'm talking about this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HvZuUJE21U

Those are bolas. They use centrifugal movement to accelerate the rocks past what the thrower can naturally accomplish with their muscles, similarly to a spear-thrower. We see one wrap around a stormtrooper's neck and another couple are knocked over by the rocks hitting their armour. Neither are shown to be actually dead. The armour isn't penetrated anywhere.

Still useless for your argument anyway since it's nowhere near the kind of damage that a phaser does, and doesn't use anything like the same mechanism. What happens to the stormtroopers here would happen to pretty much any standard humanoid getting hit by rocks at a pretty decent velocity, armour or no. It has absolutely nothing to do with what kind of phaser setting would be needed to get through stormtrooper armour.

[NecronLord]

Routed as in defeated decisively, not directed.

I was teasing as I believe the correct usage is 'routing' or 'were routed' but not 'being routed.' I may be wrong on that I suppose. My copy of Usage and Abusage [of English] is elsewhere.

[applejack]

What about the Star Wars: Rebels mini-episode "Art Attack," where four stormtroopers are next to an explosion that rips up a TIE Fighter (one of them has his face right next the the bomb) and they all immediately survived and were moving after the smoke cleared. It's also implied that the same stormtroopers were alive to fall for the same trick again at the beginning of the season 1 finale episode. Something to think about when we're talking about rocks and stormie armor.

[darthy2]

I'm talking about this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HvZuUJE21U

Those are bolas. They use centrifugal movement to accelerate the rocks past what the thrower can naturally accomplish with their muscles, similarly to a spear-thrower. We see one wrap around a stormtrooper's neck and another couple are knocked over by the rocks hitting their armour. Neither are shown to be actually dead. The armour isn't penetrated anywhere.

Still useless for your argument anyway since it's nowhere near the kind of damage that a phaser does, and doesn't use anything like the same mechanism. What happens to the stormtroopers here would happen to pretty much any standard humanoid getting hit by rocks at a pretty decent velocity, armour or no. It has absolutely nothing to do with what kind of phaser setting would be needed to get through stormtrooper armour.

ahh, so you won't admit that you cringed when you saw the storm trooper get hit with a small rock in the chest and fall over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7uyfgBTS7k <-- lowest setting of a phaser. It knocks Quark back.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Quark is not knocked back by the stun blast. The stun blast caused him to fall over the futon thingie and onto the floor.

He fell over the futon/whatever and hit the floor. No knock back.

And, before you go pulling the "rocks" example out of your diseased rectum again, dorothy2, even modern body armor is not resistant to blunt force trauma, such as a thrown rock. It's optimized to resist high-speed, pistol- and rifle-caliber penetrators(as well as shrapnel).

Just as stormtrooper armor would doubtlessly be optimized to resist energy weapons, most likely, again, pistol and rifle-caliber energy weapons, since that's the most common threat on a SW battlefield. Not a thrown rock. Especially, not a big thrown rock, like the ones the Ewoks were chucking.

Nor, it seems, is stormtrooper armor resistant to fecal matter. Like what a rabid Trekkie trollhard has been flinging throughout this thread.

[darthy2]

Quark is not knocked back by the stun blast. The stun blast caused him to fall over the futon thingie and onto the floor.

He fell over the futon/whatever and hit the floor. No knock back.

And, before you go pulling the "rocks" example out of your diseased rectum again, dorothy2, even modern body armor is not resistant to blunt force trauma, such as a thrown rock. It's optimized to resist high-speed, pistol- and rifle-caliber penetrators(as well as shrapnel).

Just as stormtrooper armor would doubtlessly be optimized to resist energy weapons, most likely, again, pistol and rifle-caliber energy weapons, since that's the most common threat on a SW battlefield. Not a thrown rock. Especially, not a big thrown rock, like the ones the Ewoks were chucking.

Nor, it seems, is stormtrooper armor resistant to fecal matter. Like what a rabid Trekkie trollhard has been flinging throughout this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQYUjVMOgtU <-- at 2:17 did that Klingon fall over too?

That was just a small rock thrown at the storm trooper too. You'd think a storm trooper could at least withstand an attack like that. Here's a big rock thrown at someone in Star Trek who has no armor and they're barely affected by it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SK0cUNMnMM at 1:18

[Esquire]

I'm sure you can demonstrate that Starfleet security troops are as resistant to impacts as a Gorn, especially as most humans are readily capable of using several-hundred-pound boulders as projectiles in combat. Oh, wait; neither of those things are true, and you've once again failed to provide any useful evidence for your argument. Debate in good faith or concede, if you please. I call on you to clearly state your rational for claiming that phaser fire will easily defeat stormtrooper armor, and to provide calculations supporting that claim if you have any.

Non-immunity to momentum transfer has nothing to do, except in the broadest possible scientific sense, with resistance to energy weapon fire. If you disagree, that's a positive claim and the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that it does. You assert that "[I'd] think a storm trooper [sic] could at least withstand an attack like [Ewok bolas]." Why would I think that? What do you mean by withstand? Why do you think the stormtrooper didn't withstand it? We see somebody stumble when hit in the face by a stone bola; this is hardly surprising or cause to doubt armor efficacy. Again, if you think being hit in the face with a large rock wouldn't make anybody pause a moment, I advise you to try it and report back.

[WATCH-MAN]

Ewoks routinely throw rocks the size of a human torso about as easily as an Ewok-sized human might lift a piece of painted foam.

Please provide evidence for your claim that the rocks had "the size of a human torso".

Considering the size of an Ewok, a stone "the size of a human torso" should be almost as big as the Ewok itself.

I can not remember to have ever seen an Ewok throwing a stone nearly his or her own size.

Such a rock might easily weigh twenty pounds, ...

Please provide evidence for your claim that the rock "might easily weigh twenty pounds".

[Esquire]

Oh, you again. I was exagerattongg slightly, it's more true that the Ewoks throw rocks around the size of a human head; we see them throw rocks larger than their own heads, which in turn we know are only slightly smaller than human ones. A human head has an average volume of about 0.1 cubic feet.

Sandstone, a comparatively light rock, has a density of around 150 pounds per cubic foot. Granite or marble are up into the 170s. As a rough approximation, then, they're throwing rocks which are not lighter than 15 pounds and may very well be much heavier. Sources to follow when I'm not on my phone; rather than demanding I provide them, though, why not just provide an alternate scaling if you disagree?

[Borgholio]

Yeah I've noticed that Watch-Man rarely provides alternate explanations or figures of his own when he disagrees, he simply demands more proof from the people he disagrees with, sometimes to the point of absurdity.

[Lord Revan]

I don't have the density on Sandstone avaible atm in any source that easy to access or relible, but source I have gives the density on granite as 2700 kg/m3 and brick as 1400-1800 kg/m3 (and bricks are about the lightest thing could still realistically call "rock") while there's types of Lavastone that are less dense then bricks that's because they're mostly air per volume and the rocks in ROTJ are clearly solid.

btw Esquire a tiny request could you please use SI units next time, it would make things for us who don't use the imperial units anymore a lot easier.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Quark is not knocked back by the stun blast. The stun blast caused him to fall over the futon thingie and onto the floor.

He fell over the futon/whatever and hit the floor. No knock back.

And, before you go pulling the "rocks" example out of your diseased rectum again, dorothy2, even modern body armor is not resistant to blunt force trauma, such as a thrown rock. It's optimized to resist high-speed, pistol- and rifle-caliber penetrators(as well as shrapnel).

Just as stormtrooper armor would doubtlessly be optimized to resist energy weapons, most likely, again, pistol and rifle-caliber energy weapons, since that's the most common threat on a SW battlefield. Not a thrown rock. Especially, not a big thrown rock, like the ones the Ewoks were chucking.

Nor, it seems, is stormtrooper armor resistant to fecal matter. Like what a rabid Trekkie trollhard has been flinging throughout this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQYUjVMOgtU <-- at 2:17 did that Klingon fall over too?

That was just a small rock thrown at the storm trooper too. You'd think a storm trooper could at least withstand an attack like that. Here's a big rock thrown at someone in Star Trek who has no armor and they're barely affected by it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SK0cUNMnMM at 1:18

I knew you were going to try and point to the outlier. Yes, the outlier, as every other phaser stun in canon Star Trek has NOT resulted in knockback.

And, the video of Kirk and the Gorn captain fighting, proves absolutely fuck-all, other than the alien Gorn was obviously stronger and more well-muscled than an Earth human, and presumably, was native to a higher gravity well.

And, those were awfully small rocks the Palestinians were chucking at the Israeli soldiers during the infantada of the 90s and early 2000s. You would think their body armor could've at least be able to withstand attacks like that.

Except, again, neither modern body armor nor stormtrooper armor are optimized for rocks, because rocks aren't the primary threat in either battlespace. Pistol/rifle-caliber penetrators/energy bolts are. That's what the armor is optimized to resist.

You have been told this already, but, you will just repeat the same Trekslamic tactics of dishonest debating over and over again, demonstrating, as Trekkies so often do, Kent Hovind, William Laine Craig, Ken Ham, and Ray Comfort levels of deceit.

[Esquire]

I don't have the density on Sandstone avaible atm in any source that easy to access or relible, but source I have gives the density on granite as 2700 kg/m3 and brick as 1400-1800 kg/m3 (and bricks are about the lightest thing could still realistically call "rock") while there's types of Lavastone that are less dense then bricks that's because they're mostly air per volume and the rocks in ROTJ are clearly solid.

btw Esquire a tiny request could you please use SI units next time, it would make things for us who don't use the imperial units anymore a lot easier.

Of course, I'm just more familiar with Imperial volume measurements so that's what I defaulted to. I want to say it's 2200 kg the cubic meter for sandstone.

[Lord Revan]

We've been another Gorn in canon Trek and in both cases it took considerble effort to bring them down so Gorn are clearly tougher then you typical military trained human (which starfleet officers are for all intents and purposes)

and dispite his own fanatism showing again U.P. Cinnabar has a point about modern body armor. You see unlike phasers rocks are used in real life so we kind of know the effects of rocks against human beings even armored ones.