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Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-05 10:29pm

TheDarkling wrote:
VF5SS wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:Just because Mike knows his science and maybe right on some issues doesnt mean he hasnt got a bias, its just a question of if that bias affects his results (Transporters kill people anyone?)
Well, when you're diced into atoms you would kinda die ya know. It happens when your brain is turned into so many bits and pieces.
It isnt a simple cloning procedure though something travels from point to point meaning that the person never really "dies".

That was demonstrated when Picard "died" and then they were hoping that his life energy remembered to go back to the transporter buffers so that he could be resurrected. Something akin to a soul is also transfered, somehow, by transporters. McCoy must have also remembered to go back to the pattern buffer when he was similarly resurrected.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-05 10:30pm

Exactly so whats the problem with transporters?

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-09-05 10:33pm

As soon as the transporter takes your brain apart you are dead! The brain must remain intact. Its still a copy.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-05 10:35pm

Hmm Im not sure I would agree since whats contained in your brain is simply chemical and electrical copying it doesnt amount to death, especially since it isnt destroyed simply changed into energy and then changed back into matter.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-09-05 10:37pm

Exactly so whats the problem with transporters?

They screw up with depressing regularity. And a transporter accident is usually a life threatening experience if it doesn't kill you. Simply because we haven't seen them kill someone dosn't mean they haven't. With that many malfunctions they have to have an astonishing fatality rate. Anything that unsafe how have long since be banned in the real world.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-09-05 10:41pm

TheDarkling wrote:Hmm Im not sure I would agree since whats contained in your brain is simply chemical and electrical copying it doesnt amount to death, especially since it isnt destroyed simply changed into energy and then changed back into matter.

No, it isn't. Riker was duplicated. This obviously proves that transporters perform a cloning operation, since in this case, the original actually survived, due to some freak accident. Under normal circumstances, the original dies and the clone survives.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-05 10:49pm

Stormbringer: I understand the danger aspect I was refering to themoral aspect.

Wong: Acept some "exotic matter" as you call it survives the process and actually moves from point to point.

Also how can cloning take place if the subject isnt scanned just the locale they are in?

XPViking · Post by **XPViking** » 2002-09-06 02:18am

Simply because we haven't seen them kill someone dosn't mean they haven't. - Stormbringer

Actually, to further buttress your argument, we have seen the transporters kill people. In the very beginning of the very first Star Trek movie.

XPViking

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2002-09-06 10:00am

I'm a trek fan more then SW but I never thought about whether ST or SW is more powerful. After reading Mike Wong's site, I would easily agree that SW is hands down more power but several orders. Did I think the site was biased? No, I found Mike had a balanced view of both sides. Only a complete moron would have a problem with the site.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-09-06 11:06am

Actually, to further buttress your argument, we have seen the transporters kill people. In the very beginning of the very first Star Trek movie.

Forgot all about that, thanks. That only goes to show you even more, transporters are dangerous. For all the near fatal accidents we've seen one three ships and a space station, it has to be a major cause of death for redshirts. Sheer luck has been what's kapt the main characters from dying and redshirts are nothing if not unlucky.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-06 04:13pm

Darth Wong wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:Hmm Im not sure I would agree since whats contained in your brain is simply chemical and electrical copying it doesnt amount to death, especially since it isnt destroyed simply changed into energy and then changed back into matter.
No, it isn't. Riker was duplicated. This obviously proves that transporters perform a cloning operation, since in this case, the original actually survived, due to some freak accident. Under normal circumstances, the original dies and the clone survives.

I was under the impression that the original didn't survive, merely that the original died and two copies were made instead of one, because of the second transporter beam.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-09-06 05:39pm

Gah! their showing their age, the overabundant 1337 uses, tired old arguements, lack of intellegence. yipes!

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-09-07 12:09am

Dammit. This thread's been hijacked into becoming another debate about whether or not transporters are evil. Anyway, transporters do kill you, since they destroy your physical body by converting into energy, and then reassemble you.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-07 12:18am

.

Read what has already been said about the transporter all the evidence is in Wongs database its just been ignored in favour of the 2 Riker episode however the scorpion entry also backs up the non cloning aspect meaning the cloning vision of transporters is over ruled (twice) and that the 2 rikers resulted from duplication of the exotic matter due to then technobabble atmosphere.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-09-09 12:29pm

Come on, guys. Are you gonna leave me to deal with this myself? Get back over there and assist in the smackdown!

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-09-10 03:08am

Excuse me I have a COFFEE shop to run in reality!

I don't have time to educate every single Attention Deficitet Disorder Dysfunction case that gets ahold of a school computer and starts posting garbage on the internet assuming he's right and bragging about his Mad Skillz.

Give them 5 years they will go off to college, actually see a Coed naked during spring break and die of a heart attack, if they don't grow up.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-09-10 03:45am

The standard response to the "time travel" copout: Multiple timelines. Sure, you can go back in time and change something, but according to episodes such as [i}Yesterday's Enterprise[/i] and that one funky episode where Worf kept shifting between dimensions, such an alteration in the timestream would simply create another timeline, NOT alter the already-established future of the timeline you left.

Ergo, in that timeline - the timeline you left, and the "main" timeline as far as debates are concerned - the time travel copout has no effect.

Of course, this whole technobabble nonsense about timestreams and such simply indicates that there are timelines where the ST universe would whup the SW universe's butt... and that there are timelines where the dominant forms of life are hotdogs. But that's what happens when you try to deal with the "many worlds" theory without understanding it.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-09-10 12:37pm

OMFG.
So this guy Nuclear Harbinger is saying that the missiles in TDiC were detonated underground, apparently to rationalize the shockwaves without fireballs. I ask him for proof, and he says this:

the intent was to destroy the planet, not lay waste to the surface. if the fleet wanted to destroy the crust and mantle then they aren't going to succeed by airbursting weapons above the surface! therefore the blasts were subsurface detonations, where they can do the most damage to the 'planet'
<snip dialog from show>
now, as usual for trek the Founder's planet has a human-habitable surface and identical gravity to Earth's, and so is likely to be approximately the same size and density as Earth.

on Earth, the crust has a surface area of about 510 million square kilometres. Its thickness ranges from about 5 kilometres under the ocean to about 70 kilometres in the continents; since there is about three times as much ocean as continent, the average thickness would be about 21 kilometres. So we're looking at over ten billion cubic kilometres of rock massing about 2.9x10 to the 22 kg. The Earth's mantle is about one hundred times the volume of the crust and is somewhat denser; it is 3,000 kilometres thick, with a volume of over nine hundred billion cubic kilometres and a mass in excess of 4.25x10 to the 24 kg.

three billion cubic kilometres of the planets crust was destroyed in a matter of seconds, that is your much needed proof.

I respond with this:

So then why didn't we see huge balls of vaporised crust, or exposed mantle? Where were the plumes of ejecta reaching out of the atmosphere?

And zaphod4468 responds with this:

The torpedos detonated a shaped charge near the core of the planet, the main blast blew out the backside of the planet out of 'visible range' of the orbiting ships...

You are making assumptions based on special effects, I would agree more with NH's use of actual dialog from the episode in question to support his theory (plus it seems he's done much more research to support his arguments).

I'm not sure if he's serious or not, but damn...

Captain Hornblower · Post by **Captain Hornblower** » 2002-09-10 03:51pm

Concerning this attack, where it is reported that 30% of the crust has been destroyed, I have a few questions regarding this matter.

1. Over what time frame did the first bombardment occur, was it 1 min, 1 hour or 1 day. I ask this because it has been so long since I saw that episode.

2. IIRC the sensors on the attacking ships were being fed false data in that the life signs were not reducing with the bombardment of the planets surface. This means that the Founders had some means of sending false data to the sensors. Does this also mean that the attack data being received was also falsified in order to get the attacking forces to continue their attack and ignor their flanks?

3. Also, were other members of the crew of the attacking ships also shapeshifters, other than the romulan commander?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-10 03:59pm

1. A few seconds unless you believe theres a time lapse (I consider this likely since we are told the crust should take 1 hour to destroy yet 30% in a few seconds? doesnt make sense).

2.Possible that they thought they had destroyed 30% yet no one seems shocked that the damage was orders of magnitudes bigger than it should have been so this one is iffy.

3.Not as far as we know.

Captain Hornblower · Post by **Captain Hornblower** » 2002-09-10 05:31pm

Oh, and what was the exact wording of the crewman that reported 30% of the crust damaged/destroyed/etc.?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-10 06:25pm

Tain "Open Fire".
Cut to fleet firing both Torps and beam weapons.
Interal romulan viewscreen showings weird shockwaves on founders planets surface.
Romulan Ensign No name: "The first barage is complete"
Tain "Effect?"
Romulan Ensign No name "30% of planetary crust destroyed on opening volley...... No change ni life form readings".

and thats thats.

Has anyone else got a copy of this because I just played it and in the last few frames before we cut away from the viewscreen "normal" firey explosion begin to appear on the planetary surface (bottom right corner of the viewscreen and middle), im not sure what to make of it except these are the points the romulan plasma torps hit instead of where the beam weapons hit so it could just be those (but they were pretty big explosions) also on the area we see there isnt enough weapons fire for all the ships so there is probably more occuring off camera.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-09-11 12:10am

mmm, I love the screams of morons as you shatter their lies n the morning

http://pub97.ezboard.com/fnuclearspacef ... 21&stop=26

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-09-11 06:03pm

I really hope that "blown out the backside of the planet" argument doesn't spread. It's difficult enough keeping the old fallacies in check.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-09-11 09:47pm

Can you finish off these fuckwits please? I can't be bothered registering just to correct these spastics.

Oh, and what a surprise, the 'dialog over visuals' fallacy.

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