hoth scenario

[Sea Skimmer]

The Federation forces would be raped worse then the initial Soviet attack on Finland, by a factor of twenty. Heck, Finnish ski troopers would utterly rape the Federation forces as well, even if we didn't bring there machine guns or mortars into it.

[Failed Glory]

Wait a minute...

I'm comparing a small cap ship like Voyager at high warp escaping to a Tie fighter a below c. Since the energy of an object is mv^2, voyager can easily acquire sufficient speed to make even a micrometeor seem like a torpedo.

Escaping at warp 9, or 1000 times c, a 1 g meteor has about 9*10^22 joules of energy to disperse upon impact or the equivalent of 90 million terajoules of energy! That's the equivalent of a 22.5 Gigatons weapon.

Since they would undoubably encounter such debris, they must have strong hulls, or they would destroy their vessel just escaping.

Now a fist sized rock is about a kilo, that you say Voyager can withstand, the equivalent of 2250 Gigatons.

Using the "asteroid theory", upper limits put max turbolaser power at about 31,000 TJ, or 7.75 Gtons. That's only about 800 gigatons of power per ISD for weaponry.

If their hulls are able to withstand this, perhaps you have underestimated their strength.

Maybe we're lucky there are no super treks around to read this.

[Ender]

And another thing we have to remember, the Feds shields are much better than the imps or alliance shield tech

You are either ignorant, a troll, or a moron. Frankly, I'm leaning towards the middle one.

Lets review, shall we?

Using my "Uber-ST Stats of Doom" that grossly overinflate Trek numbers on purpose so I can't get accused of being unfair, the shields from the strongest ship, the Scimitar, top out at 302 GT.

The shields for an Imperator class Star Destroyer mark 1 are 160,000 GT.

And using calcs derived from what we see, not non canon official material, the ST shields are felled by KT weapons, not my hundreds of MT weapons.

In closing, you are stupid.

[Ender]

I'm sure I've seen Fed ships run battle and cower from confrontation at c-plus with a downed deflector sheild.

Incorrect. This idea comes from the first contact with the Borg, and the people assume that the navshields were down. However, Worf never says that. He merely says that the deflector shields were down.

[Failed Glory]

Something is grossly amiss...

A Fed deflector sheild that is less than 6 times as powerful than the navigational sheild? Why bother with a deflector array? Just use the nav array in battle.

ISD sheilding 200 times as powerful as her own weaponry, one of the best in the galaxy? So it would take 50 fronton simulataneous ISDs to destroy another sister ships' front sheilds (if evenly distributed)? That's ridiculous.

These numbers all seem like conjecture now.

And hardly worthy of debate considering an ultimate Imperial victory on the ground.

[Ender]

Something is grossly amiss...

A Fed deflector sheild that is less than 6 times as powerful than the navigational sheild? Why bother with a deflector array? Just use the nav array in battle.

The problem is that you don't understand the nav deflector. It uses tractor beams to move the bits of matter out of the way, it doesn't absorb the hit.

ISD sheilding 200 times as powerful as her own weaponry, one of the best in the galaxy? So it would take 50 fronton simulataneous ISDs to destroy another sister ships' front sheilds (if evenly distributed)? That's ridiculous.

And here we see the infamous 'No math argument"!

Here's a clue kid: A single ISD broadside is 207,500 GT.

These numbers all seem like conjecture now.

And hardly worthy of debate considering an ultimate Imperial victory on the ground.

He posted idiocy, I corrected it. Now you dismiss solid facts with ignorance, logical fallacies, and outright dismissal without any thought. Once again, I am correcting idiocy.

[Mr Bean]

Indeed nice way of Holding the line there Ender(OAN: Failed Glory if you want to know where the numbers come from he's using LOW END based on all ISD's Heavest Guns being that of what was mounted on a 20 year old TRANSPORT(Those 200 Giga-ton weaponry) multiplied by the numbers of weapons that can be brought to bear by a broad side of an ISD (30 of just Heavys more of Mediums and Lights) and the battles we know of between ISDs)

For example two fresh ISDs slug it out in Issards Revenge and appocamitly five broad sides are enough to take down the shields of one of the ships
30 Weapons, Five Broad sides(The sixth did damage but this is absoulte low end) 30x5=150 single shots x200 GT=30,000 Gigia-tons MINUM assuming that it mounts giving it every single disadvantage like not having the Mediums counted in and we still have 30,000 Giga-tons of Shielding, Considering the 128 Mega-tons of a Q-Torp, it gives you an idea how baddly an even worst case senario ISD VS ST fight is

BTW current scalling and estmations put ISD Medium guns at 250 Giga-tons and thier Heavys at 5 Teratons, adjusted thats a whole #^#^ ton of shielding power.

Remeber we are basing a ship of war's firepower off a twenty year old transport craft and STILL coming out way ahead says quite a bit

[Mr Bean]

Oh and before you say anything Enders using the mid-range figures based off of old conservate scalling, I'm using the even MORE conversative figures while mentioning the Full High End Scalling specs which ATM are

12.8 Tera-tons- HTL
460 Giga-tons-MTL
6 Mega-tons LTL(Note.. however the LTL is equal in ALL scallings as its a KNOW figure verifed already by EU, infact directly stated a time or two because they are anti-fighter weaponry(Think the Turrets on the MF but slight less mobile and capable of faster and heavier firing)

[beyond hope]

Shuttles can't penetrate planetary shields: if they could, Vader would have had TIE bombers hit the shield generator rather than waste time with the AT-ATs. The feds have either the "dune buggies" or else their own feet for transport from the shield edge to the generator. Then they have to find some way of destroying it without the heavy guns of an AT-AT (I'm guessing a Fed demolitions team, or else having to capture and shut off the generator.) You can remove the AT-ATs and AT-STs from the defending garrison and the Feds still lose, badly. You can take away the TIEs, too: as long as the shield stays up no Fed shuttles are getting in.

I'm personally leaning towards "the Wampas eat them all before they make it to the base."

[Failed Glory]

Now you dismiss solid(?) facts with ignorance, logical fallacies, and outright dismissal without any thought. Once again, I am correcting idiocy.

Even sweeping it out of the way would still requires a massive amount of energy. ie, the kinetic energy of the particle in relation to the moving starship.

I'm not going to pretend I've read every book and technical manual, but I've now just read, in this thread alone, at least three different numbers for an ISD sheild. And the power of a turbolaser isn't exactly known science.

Mr. Bean I can respect because he analyzes actual canon and presents an argument without calling others names or insulting them. I will cede that an ISD may be as powerful as he says. He actually deduces 30,000 and you quote 207,000 from somewhere? Maybe you're wrong.

I'm a SW fan. I have always been of the opinion that Imp tech beats the shit out of Fed stuff. However, the ESB "asteroid theory", which everyone convieniently ignored here, and the ST nav deflector strength weren't discussed at all. Think about the required energy to move an object at 1000 times c. That IS a lot of power.

Oh yes, you're last poignant sentence. So who's the idiot here? One whose willing to talk, and not impose names like "kid" or adjectives like "idiocy" when discussing a perfectly imaginative world, or the one who takes the highest number from all of the movies, "technical" manuals, and role-playing games and decides thats the actual strength of an ISD? I'm pretty sure we can all handle ourselves in chatrooms by now.

[Mr Bean]

He actually deduces 30,000 and you quote 207,000 from somewhere? Maybe you're wrong.

He's using the old Mind-range figures based on the Astroid Cal's, I tend to use the Low and High end Estmates(Which those high are still generious, TRUE high end estmation by SirNitrium pegs HTL's as being a max of 670 Tetra-tons, so when I say 5 Tetra-tons I mean mid-range though I say High just because I'm nice )

THE Most likley range(Mathmaticaly speaking and studing the advancement of weaponry plus adding in thats what a Transport moutns) however pegs HTL on the ISDs in the 2-4 Tera-ton range while the mediums are slight improved weaponry from the Transport so likley 250 Giga-tons and the Lights we know as 6 Mega-tons


Anywho thats all beside the point realy but I wanted to bring it up

[Ender]

Now you dismiss solid(?) facts with ignorance, logical fallacies, and outright dismissal without any thought. Once again, I am correcting idiocy.

Even sweeping it out of the way would still requires a massive amount of energy. ie, the kinetic energy of the particle in relation to the moving starship.

Post some numbers instead of generalizations and I'll be glad to discuss it. I'm certain Darkling nad the others would find it interesting as well.

I'm not going to pretend I've read every book and technical manual, but I've now just read, in this thread alone, at least three different numbers for an ISD sheild. And the power of a turbolaser isn't exactly known science.

Yes, it is.
The power of a MTL is stated in ICS as 200 GT.
Using canon ratios derived from bolt intensity seen in the ESB asteroid field and ROTJ you get:
50 GT LTLs
6250 TT HTLS
200 GT MTLS

The broadside for an Impstar is 32 HTLS, 60 MTls, 60 LTLS. Plug it in.

It is simple math

And the numbers for the ISD shield come straight from Saxton (who wrote the book), he said it was 10 x as powerful as the Acclamator.

[quot]Mr. Bean I can respect because he analyzes actual canon and presents an argument without calling others names or insulting them. I will cede that an ISD may be as powerful as he says. He actually deduces 30,000 and you quote 207,000 from somewhere? Maybe you're wrong.[/quote]OR maybe I use information with a stronger canon backing.

I'm a SW fan. I have always been of the opinion that Imp tech beats the shit out of Fed stuff. However, the ESB "asteroid theory", which everyone convieniently ignored here, and the ST nav deflector strength weren't discussed at all. Think about the required energy to move an object at 1000 times c. That IS a lot of power.

The asteroid theory has been done to death. The shields were down.

Oh yes, you're last poignant sentence. So who's the idiot here? One whose willing to talk, and not impose names like "kid" or adjectives like "idiocy" when discussing a perfectly imaginative world, or the one who takes the highest number from all of the movies, "technical" manuals, and role-playing games and decides thats the actual strength of an ISD? I'm pretty sure we can all handle ourselves in chatrooms by now.

Respect is earned, not given. You suscribed to logical fallacies and poor thinking, thus digging yourself into a hole, hence my hostility to your mistakes.. Show yourself to be worthy of respect, and you'll get some. Not until then. And believe me, the passive agression you display is transparent and not helping your case.

And my numbers are low end. Like Bean said, I tend to use somewhat more conservative numbers for my SW calcs. I also use Extremely high ST calcs just so no one can bitch. Yet you are doing that anyways. Perhaps I should have MOO and HDS explain the multi-Yottaton HTL to you?

[Failed Glory]

Escaping at warp 9, or 1000 times c, a 1 g meteor has about 9*10^22 joules of energy to disperse upon impact or the equivalent of 90 million terajoules of energy! That's the equivalent of a 22.5 Gigaton weapon.

Since I already posted scientific numbers, quit hassling for them, man. The power required would be less than this, but still significant, especially at higher warp speeds.

I don't really care for ST and wouldn't defend it to save myself. All I was saying was maybe the nav deflector was a little more powerful than previously thought. I have not said nor hinted that a tiny ship like Voyager could take an ISD, so quit twisting my words, or as you put it, subscribing to logical fallicies by implying otherwise.

And I'm not sure the nav deflector is a tractor beam. Navigational deflector: Device that deflects potential obstacles in a starship's flight path. The deflector dish usually produces a low-power static field for deflecting submicron particles and a concentrated main beam that pushes aside larger objects thousands of kilometers ahead of the ship. (www.ex-astris-scientia.org)

They do say "low power", but I fail to see how 20 some gigatons is "low power". Anyways, something to ponder...

And please don't put me in the same grouping as this Darkstar fella I keep reading about; I haven't subscribed to outright lunacy and ignorance, yet.

[Darth Yoshi]

I think that the Feddies will use their tricorders to scan the wampas, giving away their location to the Imps. Assumming the wampas leave any alive, mortars shelling the vicinity of the wampas will finish them off, and TIE/B carpet bombing will commence just to make sure, and to get rid of the wampas (I hate wampas).

[Nathan F]

Mr. Bean

(Hint think *Big boy and little Boy nukes they droped on Japan)

This is completely irrelevant, but i gotta say it anyways. Its Fat Man and Little Boy.

[Darth Wong]

Now you dismiss solid(?) facts with ignorance, logical fallacies, and outright dismissal without any thought. Once again, I am correcting idiocy.

Even sweeping it out of the way would still requires a massive amount of energy. ie, the kinetic energy of the particle in relation to the moving starship.

Hey dumb-ass, small nitpick: you're totally wrong.

Where the fuck did you go to school? If you give something a nudge to the side, you can make it miss you. You don't need to deal with its entire kinetic energy. How do you think we plan to handle incoming asteroids if we spot one with enough lead time? Make 100 million megatons worth of nukes to take it head-on? Of course not. We'll just shove it aside at a great distance, using a miniscule fraction of that energy.

I'm a SW fan. I have always been of the opinion that Imp tech beats the shit out of Fed stuff. However, the ESB "asteroid theory", which everyone convieniently ignored here, and the ST nav deflector strength weren't discussed at all. Think about the required energy to move an object at 1000 times c. That IS a lot of power.

I think you need to study up on the basic concept of the warp drive. That's not how it works; the whole point of it is that no ship is ever moving at superluminal speed relative to its local spacetime.

Oh yes, you're last poignant sentence. So who's the idiot here? One whose willing to talk, and not impose names like "kid" or adjectives like "idiocy" when discussing a perfectly imaginative world, or the one who takes the highest number from all of the movies, "technical" manuals, and role-playing games and decides thats the actual strength of an ISD?

Then prove that number wrong instead of attacking your opponents' personalities. I presume you are aware of the "style over substance" fallacy? Ad hominem?

[Mr Bean]

This is completely irrelevant, but i gotta say it anyways. Its Fat Man and Little Boy.

NO ITS COMPLETLY RELEVEANT ARRGH!
In the Words of Homer Simpson
DOH!

[Nathan F]

I was just saying that my statement was irrelevant...not yours.

[Mr Bean]

I was saying however, BOTH are relavent

[Ender]

I was just saying that my statement was irrelevant...not yours.

Everything you say is irrelevant