Yet another Borg KE thread

[Ender]

Because quite frankly, I wrote it off as a knee-jerk reply. You claimed that her exoskeleton was not necessarily removed because we've never seen her nude, but her bodysuit would easily show any of that exoskeletal hardware if it was still present.

Slightly off the topic...

I don't think that any remotely warm-blooded males here would object to seeing her nude.

Boobs are never off topic

[Master of Ossus]

MOO: He isnt saying since the Borg dont show KE shields they must have them, hes saying since we havent seen when they should be deployed we dont know that they dont have them.
He then goes on to prove conjecture for the shields is better than the conjecture against the shield (since the statement above shows the anti shield argument to be conjecture).
Therefore once again you havent proved the argument wrong (I dont care about his general standing since I try to be objective and simply look at the evidence and compare it to his theory).

Actually, we have seen incidents when we would have expected the drones to have KE shielding. We would have expected to see those shields against the knife, the fists, and the bulkhead. We did not, so DarkStar created excuses (they were weak, but okay). He then said that because we have not conclusively seen that the Borg do not have KE shields, they must have them. That is an example of the very fallacy to which he links.

Incidentally, the Borg having KE shields ALSO requires that stupidity within the Borg exist. If the Borg did have KE shields, they should have been used by combat drones against Worf and his knife, against fists, and the bulkhead. The fact that we did not indicates that the Borg were idiots.

[Master of Ossus]

I would theorize that that is because the nadion stream carries with it a high amount of energy, something the shields are designed against. Raw nadions against solid matter are not that effective, but against matter that has been broken down via an energy beam or the energy release of a torp (IE TDIC) they appear to be very effective.

That is kind of what Darkling is saying about DarkStar's point. That would make the point totally irrelevent for the purposes of determining whether or not the shields could stop bullets, because there is no evidence that bullets would be stopped as high energy. We know that the shields do not stop knives, fists, or bulkheads, and we know that they do stop nadions. A bullet would seem to be fairly middle ground, and there is clearly reasonable doubt against the assertion that Borg shields would stop such weapons.

[Darth Wong]

Darth Wong: You say that Picard knows how the Borg operate which we agree upon, however this fits with the idea that the hologrpahic bullets will work where the normal bullets wont.

Now if Picard thinks Guns will work why not have they replicted (even if main power was off and this prevented replicators Feds have portable replicators as do shuttles either of these options was open yet it wasnt taken, the point still stands)

Because he can't replicate them. Replicator limitations are well documented, and if he doesn't have the right raw material in replicator stores, he can't replicate projectile weapons. You are generating false dilemmas.

On the same note 7 knows how the Borg operate and Voyager faced the drones on many occassion yet they werent deployed and here there was a huge incentive also before you tell me they are strapped for resources so much they cant make guns remember they built at least one new shuttle from scratch.

A shuttle is made from spare parts which they will naturally have laying around, since that is their technology base. A gun, on the other hand, is not something they typically have laying around. It is highly doubtful that they have replicator patterns ready, you assume they have blueprints for every technological device in the history of man in their computer (otherwise they would have to design a gun, and I doubt they have the necessary expertise), and there is no evidence that they have the necessary replicator stores.

It also requires us to believe that SF hadnt made projectile weapons come place against the Borg (they have built a projectile gun for use in situations where phasers dont work but instead phaser were modified) or at least briefed people about this (So the Voyager crew should know as should PIcard as od Descent - why didnt he use Guns there? especialluy since you credit him with coming up with a plan based upon Borg weakness why didnt he use Guns here??).

It is pretty obvious that Starfleet people know you can kill a Borg by hitting him with something. They're just tactically inflexible (I have already provided both Star Trek and real-life examples of tactical inflexibility and close-mindedness hampering armies; nice of you to ignore them in your rebuttal).

Yet that doesnt happen even though SF has a division of R&D working on the Borg problem.

So? SF undoubtedly also has whole divisions working on detecting cloaked ships, yet they are too stupid to deploy passive infrared scanners. Deal with it.

Onto the implants thing, I did give you many other options apart from she still had exoskeleton fixtures such as the shield systems being seperate or that it isnt deployed on all drones (maybe only Tac drones since we both agree the Borg dont mind losses its possible they hold the tech ni reserve due to cost cutting so to speak).

If the shield system is separate, then it isn't part of the drone and it is irrelevant to the question of whether regular drones have shields. Don't throw in red herrings. If the shield system is only deployed on special "tactical drones", then again, it isn't part of a regular drone and it is irrelevant to the question of whether regular drones have shields.

I would describe Brent Spiner as non netnoian but since Kivas's device threw him accross a room and his device didnt seem to respond in any way (move) yes it was somewhat larger than an implant but from whaty I recall it was easily smnall enough to fit on an exoskeleton (or fo that matter inside the chest).

It could also easily tie into a shipboard system which is anchored in place far better than Data's feet.

We also know that SF packs these Personal Forcefileds so that must mean that the technology can be deployed on a person (it probably acts in a Non-Newtonian way like other ST tech).

And those personal forcefields are designed for use against low-momentum weapons like phasers and disruptors. Do you seriously believe that you could throw, say, a 100 lb barbell at some guy wearing a "personal forcefield" and it would bounce off without budging him? If so, provide a shred of evidence for this supposition (without using any system which is either built into a starship or may be tied into a starship).

You also admit to the fact that the Borg probably have the tech but dont deploy it as a matter of course, however if they were going up against an enemy with projectile weapons they could easily upgrade drones with such a shield and send them out.

Don't put words in my mouth, Darkling. I said they undoubtedly have forcefield technology. I never said they must have forcefield technology which can be projected from miniaturized body implants and which can negate Newton's third law of motion and conservation of momentum.

As for your "point", it is meaningless. The Feddies could easily upgrade their men with body armour and helmets, yet they don't. We are concerned with the various sci-fi universes as they stand, now how we think they should conduct themselves.

With the above you basically agree with me since I simply believe the Borg have the tech on hand and could easily get drones to use it thus projectile weapons wouldnt be a great advantage against them.

Your shameless attempt to misrepresent my words merely casts doubt on your honesty. It hardly strengthens your argument.

You idea about cost cutting (which I already expressed on the opther thread) may be valid since it may be too costly in energy for normal drones to have them, One how had huge amounts of power did employ a physical shield (infact his shield could protect him from pressure that a Borg sphere could not survive - since he can deploy a physical shield it is obviously possible for the borg to build such a device in either implant form or in the exoskeleton (and im not saying because he had it the Borg have it what im saying is that making an implant/exoskeleton based force field emitter is possible at some point but this may be due to future tech).

I don't care what the particular reason is for the lack of particle shielding on drones. If it's power limits, that's fine by me. If it's the use of implant-based shielding which means that high-momentum impacts would cause massive internal injuries, that's also fine by me (it may be both). If it's an unwillingness to deploy an exoskeleton-based shield system which would not produce such internal injuries upon impact by spreading the reaction forces around due to cost or technical practicality concerns, that's fine by me too. The point is simply that they don't do it, their drones can be killed by projectile weapons, and this is what we've seen on the show. You are trying to change the subject; in the end, nobody cares why their drones don't block physical objects; the point is simply that they don't, and that they have shown an inability to "adapt" to them even after months of continued severe losses.

[TheDarkling]

The debate was do the Borg have KE shields not does every borg have a KE shield thus tac drones are applicable im afraid.

There is a replicator pattern for a projectile weapon availble (this is discussed in the thread) however since gnus are used on the holodeck I think they have the patterns (unless you are saying that the gun simply looks like a gun and has none of the mechanism inside), may I also remind yuo that Data had no problems creating a guitar (and he seemed to think that no one wuold have yet it was there lying in wait).

As for not being able to build a gun - even if a relpicator pattern isnt there the specifics of how a gun works would most likely to be there and lets face it it isnt that hard (Kirk made a gun out of bamboo with no tools for Petes sake).

I ignored your examples because they arent relevant however if I must answer them I will.


Carrier groups represent a huge shift of resources and effort on behalf of the military not the push of a button.

Im sure you arent holding Hitler up as a model of intelligence when it comes to warfare however I wont debate this simply see above.

Now the ST examples - The seige didnt have any good equipment tyhat we know is availbale its possible the operations was a rush (its ben a while snce I saw it), were they even dedicated ground forces? and SF couldnt establish a supply line once agina factors that act as draw backs.

The attack no that colony didnt seem very larfge scale and this was due to the Feds getting caught off guard (the forces we see are simple colony defense I believe) as for Bashir being sent out I believe its said they cant spare anyone (I cant remember what he was going to retrieve though).

AH hmm Cloak detection and prevention well you will hate what I am about to say but a cloak must somehow not emite heat (yes I know, I know) prehaps using (hes going to kill me) subspace or prehaps bottling up the energy somehow and releasing it when not under cloak since we are told that all emissions are monitored to keep the cloak intact I cant imagine IR flooding out.

You believethat Kivas' shield is tied nito the ship - we have no indication of this however but it is possible (although you are complicating the device a little which isnt exactly great).

You also believe that SF personal force fields only block energy beams force fileds are almost always a feature that blocks both matter and energy (although shield and force field were interchangable early in TNG the lines were drawn later however this isnt firm enough ground to stand on).
I dont recall seeing a federation shield that didnt block both matter and energy ( at least to some degree - greater than what you suggest) this technology would be a new feature of the federation whereas the personal forcefiled being just that makes sense and fits what we have seen before of federation force field technology.

When I said seperate I meant that the matter shield is a seperate unti than the normal shield.

You seem to forget that the Borg often upgrade to fight their enemy thus if the tech is feasible and necessary (and they dont have to be inventive to a large degree) then it is likely to be used.

Once again the subject was do the Borg have KE shields not does each Borg have a KE shield howeevr both theories still stand up thus far.

[Master of Ossus]

The debate was do the Borg have KE shields not does every borg have a KE shield thus tac drones are applicable im afraid.

Yes they are. So why didn't the tactical drones stop Worf's knife or punches or things like that?

There is a replicator pattern for a projectile weapon availble (this is discussed in the thread) however since gnus are used on the holodeck I think they have the patterns (unless you are saying that the gun simply looks like a gun and has none of the mechanism inside), may I also remind yuo that Data had no problems creating a guitar (and he seemed to think that no one wuold have yet it was there lying in wait).

Not every holodeck has access to every holo program. Remember that Quark is always getting new programs in, and that Barclay repeatedly crafts his own programs. Clearly, the programs that are available to each holosuite are customized for the different patrons that it will serve. Just because Data likes Sherlock Holmes, or because Picard enjoys the Roaring '20's does not mean that every holodeck will have the programs that they enjoy. Instead it appears as if the programs are in the decks on a semi-permanent basis. Also, not every ship is going to have access to large quantities of lead, gunpowder, etc. Why would they be carrying around such dangerous materials, if they don't need them for anything other than the Borg. Remember that SF repeatedly sneers at specialized warships, instead favoring only multi-purpose ships. It is highly unlikely they would construct ships for the sole purpose of fighting the Borg, and even less likely that they would stock such ships with large quantities of dangerous and otherwise obsolete materials for no reason other than fighting Borg drones. Note that that might help explain SF's reliance on regenerative phasers, instead of projectile weapons.

As for not being able to build a gun - even if a relpicator pattern isnt there the specifics of how a gun works would most likely to be there and lets face it it isnt that hard (Kirk made a gun out of bamboo with no tools for Petes sake).

Crude firearms are easily crafted, but more advanced ones are much more difficult to construct. Also, SF appears largely to ignore guns. How else can one explain the design and layout of the phasers from TNG?

I ignored your examples because they arent relevant however if I must answer them I will.

Carrier groups represent a huge shift of resources and effort on behalf of the military not the push of a button.

They would also represent a change in SF military procedure from ships that could perform several roles into ships solely designed for war.

Im sure you arent holding Hitler up as a model of intelligence when it comes to warfare however I wont debate this simply see above.

That was the point. Hitler was stupid. Humans can be stupid.

Now the ST examples - The seige didnt have any good equipment tyhat we know is availbale its possible the operations was a rush (its ben a while snce I saw it), were they even dedicated ground forces? and SF couldnt establish a supply line once agina factors that act as draw backs.

The point was that they used what they had in an exceptionally poor manner, and that the equipment they did have was poorly designed.

The attack no that colony didnt seem very larfge scale and this was due to the Feds getting caught off guard (the forces we see are simple colony defense I believe) as for Bashir being sent out I believe its said they cant spare anyone (I cant remember what he was going to retrieve though).

Of course they can't spare anyone other than a valuable and non-combat officer. Oh wait, they should have had Bashir take up one of the jobs that he could have more easily performed, or one which involved back up. Since Bashir was clearly more valuable than most of their other officers, they should have moved him to a less vulnerable position and used whoever he had just freed up to go outside. This is not a valid excuse. In and of itself it demonstrates stupidity on a tactical level.

AH hmm Cloak detection and prevention well you will hate what I am about to say but a cloak must somehow not emite heat (yes I know, I know) prehaps using (hes going to kill me) subspace or prehaps bottling up the energy somehow and releasing it when not under cloak since we are told that all emissions are monitored to keep the cloak intact I cant imagine IR flooding out.

Cloaked ships can be detected by a variety of sensors. For instance, O'Brien used gravity to detect a cloaked warbird. In ST6 they did find a cloaked ship using its plasma exhaust. The Defiant is repeatedly nearly detected by chance when a ship comes close to it and stands a chance of detecting the ship. Clearly the Federation's general inability to track cloaked ships is an example of stupidity.

I dont recall seeing a federation shield that didnt block both matter and energy ( at least to some degree - greater than what you suggest) this technology would be a new feature of the federation whereas the personal forcefiled being just that makes sense and fits what we have seen before of federation force field technology.

When has a Federation forcefield blocked energy? In any case, the forcefields are clearly different from shields from the beginning. Remember that in Enterprise, when they invent forcefields, they still do not have shields. That means that shields and forcefields were different from Enterprise, and different from TNG onwards. Forcefields require that emitters be placed on BOTH sides of the area that is going to be blocked. That is clearly different from shields, which require only a generator on the ship projecting them.

You seem to forget that the Borg often upgrade to fight their enemy thus if the tech is feasible and necessary (and they dont have to be inventive to a large degree) then it is likely to be used.

Ummm.... Tactical drones repeatedly fight enemies that are armed with KE weapons like knives and fists. They should have upgraded at least their tactical drones to fight against such weapons, if they had the technology available to them.

Once again the subject was do the Borg have KE shields not does each Borg have a KE shield howeevr both theories still stand up thus far.

Wrong. There is no evidence, whatsoever, to support the idea that the Borg do in fact have the capability of arming their drones with KE shields, other than the notion that they MUST be able to because they should have developed such shields. That is a flawed assumption. There is NO evidence that the Borg have KE shields.

[TheDarkling]

We dont know those were Tac drones.

Granted guns may not be in Voyager holodeck bank (however comps cnotani huge amounts of informatin (20th century comics anyone??), except however we seem the WW 2 holkodeck program play out and WW 2 did at some point possibly include the use of guns... I think.... maybe .

Yes Hitler was stupid but I bet his general though he was a loon but they were afraid to say anything mass stupidity is required here and we already have evidence of Picard creating a tactic based upon Borg weakness and so has Seven and the entire Voy crew.

Gunpowered and lead well they could use the replicator howver if thats out (I cant imagine why it would be) then simply stop off at a planet and pick some up (the gun from DS9 could be created from a replicator so I see no reason why a relpicator cant make a gun).

No it wouldnt represent a change in SF policy it would involve saying " computer create me some guns" then training on them (or just winging it since smoe weapons against the Borg are better than non - not a gereat idea but better than trading body blows with a drone).

The expedition didnt even have proper equipment of proper personel obviously SF could deploy the correct forces (maybe the troop transport ship (or ship serving as such got destroyed or some other reason such as a break in the enemy line was spotted and the feds had to move fast).

I cant remember the episode with the Klingon invasion well enough really, who said they didnt have enough troops? was it a doctor (I think it was) well then it Bashirs fault for not taking charge - a doctor isnt an expert on command decision well I am shocked.

The warbird in question was reacting to the wormhold I believe (Hazy memory) had been under cloak for at least a day possibly far longer, and was orbitting a spacestation I hope you can see why this gives the advantage to the Feds (they also didnt mention IR output as a backup to why the gravity anomaly was there yet any old ship can detect IR).

That very early force field in enterprise? how do you know the technology cant be expanded to form a shield (if you want to take this all the way then the personal force fields must conform to what you have said somehow - its not likely they do but you can elabourate further if you want).

There is evidence that points to that conclusion but also evidence for the other, its upto which yu ignore, I prefer to believe that a few hundred people (prehaps a to high a figure) dont have weird and unexplainable selective memory lapses.
I prefer to believe tech we have seen in action on a future Borg exists on current Borg - not a huge leap in truth.

Im going to go and try to get a copy of that episode and see if that shield is stated to be beyond normal - in an effort to finish this debate.

[Master of Ossus]

We dont know those were Tac drones.

They were drones sent for the explicit purpose of engaging in combat. Are you saying that the Borg was stupid (yet again) to send out non-combat drones when they were needed, or are you saying that they were incapable of manufacturing Tac drones despite having control of a sizeable portion of the E-E, including Engineering, and any industrial replicators there?

Yes Hitler was stupid but I bet his general though he was a loon but they were afraid to say anything mass stupidity is required here and we already have evidence of Picard creating a tactic based upon Borg weakness and so has Seven and the entire Voy crew.

Mass stupidity is usually impossible to prove. Incidents that are generally cited as examples of mass stupidity are generally actually examples of stupidity in leadership and an unwillingness or inability of the masses to question that leadership.

Gunpowered and lead well they could use the replicator howver if thats out (I cant imagine why it would be) then simply stop off at a planet and pick some up (the gun from DS9 could be created from a replicator so I see no reason why a relpicator cant make a gun).

The replicator does not appear to be able to molecularly re-arrange things. It certainly does not seem capable of changing substances on an atomic level. Why would Voyager's crew carry around such dangerous materials as gunpowder and lead? And where would they be able to pick up smokeless powder during their journey? And why would they WANT to pick it up if their only benefit of doing so would be against the Borg, and if they were planning to get through Borg space without actually fighting the Borg?

No it wouldnt represent a change in SF policy it would involve saying " computer create me some guns" then training on them (or just winging it since smoe weapons against the Borg are better than non - not a gereat idea but better than trading body blows with a drone).

Tell me why, if Picard was able to rapidly manufacture guns, he ordered his crew to fight hand to hand against the Borg. Why didn't they manufacture knives or boards with nails through them? Why didn't they manufacture explosives? Clearly SF's industrial capacity is nowhere near as great as you are claiming.

I cant remember the episode with the Klingon invasion well enough really, who said they didnt have enough troops? was it a doctor (I think it was) well then it Bashirs fault for not taking charge - a doctor isnt an expert on command decision well I am shocked.

The point is that SF's ranking officer there should have replaced one of his men with Bashir on a temporary basis and then ordered that man to go out. This is an example of stupidity.

The warbird in question was reacting to the wormhold I believe (Hazy memory) had been under cloak for at least a day possibly far longer, and was orbitting a spacestation I hope you can see why this gives the advantage to the Feds (they also didnt mention IR output as a backup to why the gravity anomaly was there yet any old ship can detect IR).

Why is any of that relevent? It was tracked because of its singularity. If anything, gravitational distortions from the wormhole should have made it more difficult to detect. And the singularity cannot be turning itself on and off because the ship was cloaked for some time. It is clearly another demonstration of Federation/Klingon stupidity that they do not scan for cloaked Romulan vessels by detecting their gravitational signatures, even if the ships are invisible to IR scanners.

That very early force field in enterprise? how do you know the technology cant be expanded to form a shield (if you want to take this all the way then the personal force fields must conform to what you have said somehow - its not likely they do but you can elabourate further if you want).

If you look at the forcefields in both TNG and in DS9, you will see that the forcefield is always a planar shape and extends until it hits these little protrusions from the sides of the holding cell/corridor.

There is evidence that points to that conclusion but also evidence for the other, its upto which yu ignore, I prefer to believe that a few hundred people (prehaps a to high a figure) dont have weird and unexplainable selective memory lapses.
I prefer to believe tech we have seen in action on a future Borg exists on current Borg - not a huge leap in truth.

That is a HUGE leap in logic. The Borg have never (to my knowledge) even demonstrated the ability to create holograms. In the future they have mobile emitters. The current Borg gain technology not through their own research and development programs, but by assimilating other technology. It should be obvious that the Borg do not need a primitive or rudimentary form of one technology in order to have that technology in the future. Note that the future Borg was so far advanced beyond the current Borg that the current Borg devoted resources specifically to assimilate it. Clearly it had better technology than they did. Clearly it had access to technology that the current Collective did not have. What makes you think that the KE shield was not one of these? There is absolutely no reason to assume that just because future Borg have access to technology, the current Borg even have prototypes of that technology. Now you're just grasping straws. This is not a matter of choice as to which side you decide to believe. This is a question of rationality. Reasonable people should unfailingly choose a side that offers them a better explanation. DarkStar's assertions require that we believe an immense number of minor exceptions and disregard some of his dishonesty. He is clearly saying that because we have never seen that the Borg conclusively LACK KE shields, they must have them. This is wrong.

Look Darkling, I have asked you several times to point out the evidence for DarkStar's case, and you haven't done it. That is because there is no evidence for his case. It is just a series of different, outlandish interpretations. There is no evidence to support it, and much evidence against it. His interpretation requires us to believe that the Borg have KE shields that are incapable of stopping bulkheads, knives, or fists, but that are capable of stopping bullets. He has never seen them stop a bullet. He justifies this by saying that every time a bullet was fired at them, it was a holographic bullet made up of forcefields and was therefore not stoppable by KE shields. This is flawed. DarkStar's theory is flawed. The pro-Wars theory is much more easily explained.

[TheDarkling]

They may not have been able to build tac drones on site however they may also have just sent them out to the deflector (they were working not fighting so you are wrong in that they were sent out to fight).

Since when does the replicator moleculary rearrange things? and it matter not any DS9 built the gun and why would they carry gunpound, the bullet need not be lead and so on.

Fighting hand to hand is suicide he was irrational however I did state way back that the replicators may have been offline (however once the Borg appeared Picard should have go to the replicators on a shuttle and created the weapon if it wuld have worked).

I think Bashir was the ranking officier and he wasnt command trained (not to a great degree anyway) so you have proven one instance of an oversight by an officier who hadnt though about his actions (Bashir probably knew he was the best man for the job being a superman and all).

The stupidity of the scale needed is still unproven (I dont think it can be proven without proving the Borg dont have KE shields).

The SF starships can detect gravity so the conclusion to reach is that this warbird was special (or the incident or question to be more precise) or that the station had better sensors (the fact that what may be a minute gravity distorion was orbitting the station provened it was a warbird but distortions of this kind in space may not be easily detecable.

Fair enough on the forcefileds being enclosed who do you presume this is implemented on a person.

No its not a leap ion logic because im not saying thats why I believe it what im saying is I nkow that everything for this theory is possibl and demonstrated yet the SF stupidity and everything necessary for the No KE isnt easily explainable.

Im not going to post again unless something new comes to light (possibly after I watch the episode with One in since its going nowhere, I see no reason or explanation for the mass stupidity and you see no reason for Borg KE shields without new evidence we are deadlocked.

[Master of Ossus]

Since when does the replicator moleculary rearrange things? and it matter not any DS9 built the gun and why would they carry gunpound, the bullet need not be lead and so on.

It doesn't. I said that. Bullets always need to be made out of material that is softer than the barrels of the weapon that fires them. That protects the rifling from being worn away nearly as quickly. They can be tipped or cored with some other material, but for hand weapons lead is always the material of choice. If you can think of any other method of propelling a bullet that does not require explosives but would leave a chemical residue on a target shot at close range, I'd love to hear it.

Fighting hand to hand is suicide he was irrational however I did state way back that the replicators may have been offline (however once the Borg appeared Picard should have go to the replicators on a shuttle and created the weapon if it wuld have worked).

So why didn't his crew begin manufacturing knives? Why was it never brought up? Incidentally, this is another example of observed Federation stupidity on the part of one of SF's most gifted officers. You continuously reject something that has been repeatedly observed.

I think Bashir was the ranking officier and he wasnt command trained (not to a great degree anyway) so you have proven one instance of an oversight by an officier who hadnt though about his actions (Bashir probably knew he was the best man for the job being a superman and all).

So why didn't anyone else come up to Bashir and propose what I said he should have done, if Bashir was the ranking officer? Why didn't Bashir realize, with all of his genetically engineered greatness, that the solution I proposed would have been better? This is not entirely a tactics issue. This is common sense. The ranking officer should not be sent alone to do something that any Joe Schmuck can easily accomplish. This is an example of leadership incompetence that remained unquestioned by followers.

The stupidity of the scale needed is still unproven (I dont think it can be proven without proving the Borg dont have KE shields).

No. If they have KE shields, then the KE shields should stop knives and fists and bulkheads. This is stupid. It requires no more proof. Your solution requires just as much stupidity as the other solution. There is no evidence, whatsoever, that your theory is correct. I am beginning to become frustrated, Darkling, because you seem to be putting up a wall of ignorance similar to DarkStar's, at this point. I would request that you examine the evidence, here. If the Borg have KE shields, then they should make every effort to make those KE shields as effective as possible against the widest possible array of different weapons and attacks. We have seen several different attacks on them, and not one of those attacks has been stopped by a KE shield. If they had a KE shield, then we should have expected them to use it against such attacks.

Mike and I have shown that SF personnel, including talented officers, can make completely idiotic decisions, yet you refuse to believe that they can be stupid anywhere else. You say that because they have not been observed making stupid mistakes, they are not stupid. Oh wait, they have been seen making many stupid mistakes. One of those was not using projectile weapons against the Borg. A spear, or a board with a nail through it would make a perfect anti-drone weapon. The fact that we have not seen SF personnel carrying these demonstrates their stupidity. The examples that I have cited demonstrate poor decision making on the part of SF personnel. People are stupid. This is a fact. People are not going to suddenly become smart over the next few centuries, unless they are engineered to be smarter, as in the case of Bashir.

The SF starships can detect gravity so the conclusion to reach is that this warbird was special (or the incident or question to be more precise) or that the station had better sensors (the fact that what may be a minute gravity distorion was orbitting the station provened it was a warbird but distortions of this kind in space may not be easily detecable.

There is no evidence that that warbird is special. There is no evidence that other installations can detect Romulan ships that are cloaked, even when they know where to look for them (in the Neutral Zone, when Picard was getting indications of Romulan movement there, he could not detect Romulan ships and neither could the outposts around him). Remember that DS9 is not only in proximity to a wormhole, which creates gravitic distortions, but also near Bajor. If it was able to detect a warbird while cloaked, then it should indicate that other things should be able to detect cloaked ships.

Fair enough on the forcefileds being enclosed who do you presume this is implemented on a person.

Because forcefield technology has remained more or less unchanged in this manner since Enterprise through Voyager, TNG, and DS9. There is little reason to think otherwise. It might be different, but I do not see evidence that personal forcefields operate in a different manner.

No its not a leap ion logic because im not saying thats why I believe it what im saying is I nkow that everything for this theory is possibl and demonstrated yet the SF stupidity and everything necessary for the No KE isnt easily explainable.

No. DarkStar's theory is not more viable than the current theory. In many ways it is less viable. The SW side has successfully explained away every attack. You and DarkStar have not explained why the Borg shields do not protect them from knives, bulkheads, or fists when they would protect them from bullets (you even rejected my explanation, which was that the Borg were stupid).

Im not going to post again unless something new comes to light (possibly after I watch the episode with One in since its going nowhere, I see no reason or explanation for the mass stupidity and you see no reason for Borg KE shields without new evidence we are deadlocked.

I really don't see how you come to the conclusion that we are deadlocked. The evidence leans in one direction. DarkStar's theory does not explain anything that the old theory does not, and it requires several additional assumptions.