Thrawn and Kirk in ISDs

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2002-09-11 11:03pm

This isn't even a debate. Even against very knowledgeable commanders, Thrawn can still mop the floor with them. He just knows way to many damn tricks. Kirk is sneaky, clever, and can cheat his way out of a pinch. However, he got damned lucky in Khan, for the simple fact that Khan never really dealt with three dimension fighting. Thrawn would probably turn his nose up and tell his rookies to take practice shots.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-11 11:05pm

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:This isn't even a debate. Even against very knowledgeable commanders, Thrawn can still mop the floor with them. He just knows way to many damn tricks. Kirk is sneaky, clever, and can cheat his way out of a pinch. However, he got damned lucky in Khan, for the simple fact that Khan never really dealt with three dimension fighting. Thrawn would probably turn his nose up and tell his rookies to take practice shots.

You are simplifying. Kirk has no advantages over Thrawn, and Thrawn makes no mistakes. Thrawn beat the tar out of Grand Admiral Zaarin and his forces with an extremely small fleet. He then conquered the Unknown Regions. He makes no mistakes on either a tactical or a strategic level, and inspires tremendous confidence in his forces (perhaps even more than Kirk). Kirk has no advantages over Thrawn.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-11 11:07pm

Besides Charater shielding of course

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-11 11:07pm

Mr Bean wrote:Besides Charater shielding of course

Hardly. Both Kirk and Thrawn died. Thrawn nearly made it back to life after death.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-09-11 11:26pm

True, but that was the clone copout.
Personally, I think that Thrawn will win, because he was able to defeat Palpatine's best troops with just six patrol boats. Plus, Thrawn's main strength is his ability to understand the psychological weakpoints of all the cultures he's encountered. Kirk may be good, but he's no match for an alien Grand Admiral.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-09-11 11:56pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
DG_Gal_Wright wrote:This isn't even a debate. Even against very knowledgeable commanders, Thrawn can still mop the floor with them. He just knows way to many damn tricks. Kirk is sneaky, clever, and can cheat his way out of a pinch. However, he got damned lucky in Khan, for the simple fact that Khan never really dealt with three dimension fighting. Thrawn would probably turn his nose up and tell his rookies to take practice shots.
You are simplifying. Kirk has no advantages over Thrawn, and Thrawn makes no mistakes. Thrawn beat the tar out of Grand Admiral Zaarin and his forces with an extremely small fleet. He then conquered the Unknown Regions. He makes no mistakes on either a tactical or a strategic level, and inspires tremendous confidence in his forces (perhaps even more than Kirk). Kirk has no advantages over Thrawn.

Master of Ossus I understand what you are trying to say however Thrawn does make mistakes, he said so to Palleon, except he did also say that he was always able to modify his plans to ensure victories. On the Noghri issue, he did make a mistake. He knew that there was a Wookie aborde Kahkabr's ship, however he assumed that he was captured on Kashyyk and interogated. He assumed wrong and went the wrong way with the information.

However having said that, Thrawn is just unbeatable in ship to ship engagements. Lets look at the facts even if Kirk and crew were totally proficient with a Star Destroyer and it's capabilities, that doesn't mean that they can possible hope to match Thrawn in tactics, especially when Ties are involved, I mean how much experience do ST characters have with joint fleet and starfighter tactics? Thrawn wins in seconds, it's just a mismatch...

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2002-09-12 12:50am

Master of Ossus wrote:
DG_Cal_Wright wrote:This isn't even a debate. Even against very knowledgeable commanders, Thrawn can still mop the floor with them. He just knows way to many damn tricks. Kirk is sneaky, clever, and can cheat his way out of a pinch. However, he got damned lucky in Khan, for the simple fact that Khan never really dealt with three dimension fighting. Thrawn would probably turn his nose up and tell his rookies to take practice shots.
You are simplifying. Kirk has no advantages over Thrawn, and Thrawn makes no mistakes. Thrawn beat the tar out of Grand Admiral Zaarin and his forces with an extremely small fleet. He then conquered the Unknown Regions. He makes no mistakes on either a tactical or a strategic level, and inspires tremendous confidence in his forces (perhaps even more than Kirk). Kirk has no advantages over Thrawn.

It...is simple. Thrawn WILL beat Kirk. Like I said, Kirk is sneaky, clever, inventive and will cheat to win. Remember, he doesn't believe in the no win situation. However, Thrawn just knows to damn much about what he's doing, his opponent is doing and what is going on. Simply put, Thrawn WILL claim victory in this engagement. The basis for this was that Kirk and company are familiar with thier ship and what they have at thier disposal. It still won't save them to any degree. The Imperials and the Rebels Thrawn has matched up against knew well beyond thier resources and tactics and still could not match Thrawn. Hell, Thrawn was so bad ass, his clone could win battles.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2002-09-12 12:53am

Lets disolve this issue down to fundamentals: We have two commanders with roughly equals crews and identical equipment. We have on one hadnd James T. kirk who is a combat experienced veteran who has spent a good deal of time fighting off incursions by Klingons, Romulans and a host of others. On the other side we have Thrawn whose conduct during the Galactic Civil War made him the textbook commander. he didn't loose, he manuevered. he didn't stop he strategized, and every piece of informaiton gav him that precious insight that a commander must have to fight an enemy he might have only a vauge idea about.

Put simply Thrawn, despite Kirk's record, has done more in more places, against more enemies in more situations that have required him to think quickly or die. he has proven time and again that armed with little mroe than his it and forces to work with he can do near miracles (his first engagment against the Empire is proof enough). This guy makes 100-1 odds looks like easy money.

Thrawn in the 2nd round with the KO.

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » 2002-09-12 02:27am

Thrawn wins unless Kirk gets damned lucky.

Not because he's an uber-genius or infallable in any way. But simply becasue he and his crew are vastly more experienced with the tools at hand.

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2002-09-12 03:41am

This is a fight I would like to see.

I would place my money on Thrawn, however I don't think he would win easy...

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2002-09-12 12:51pm

Thrawn would be the victor here but i think that his ISD would need major repairs. Kirk would not go down easy a i feel would do major damage to Thrawn's ISD.

Darth Eris · Post by **Darth Eris** » 2002-09-12 01:50pm

Thrawn does make mistakes, sometimes rather costly ones. However, he can usually find a way to emerge as the victor. Kirk can do about the same thing, but he relies more on his instincts and split-second decisions than cool logic and pre-planned battle tactics. The fact that Kirk is a good commander, coupled with the fact that Thrawn has never seen him in action, studied his personal art collection, or even been exposed to the particular culture Kirk was brought up in will make it a more even battle. However, as Thrawn and his crew do have far more experience with ISDs, this will give them a big edge over Kirk and his crew. I think Thrawn will win after a fairly nasty battle that leaves both ships crippled to an extent. Maybe Thrawn will be impressed enough with Kirk to offer him a job in the Unknown Regions?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-12 09:52pm

Isolder74 wrote:Thrawn would be the victor here but i think that his ISD would need major repairs. Kirk would not go down easy a i feel would do major damage to Thrawn's ISD.

Kirk died worthlessly in Generations.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-12 10:05pm

The fact that Kirk is a good commander, coupled with the fact that Thrawn has never seen him in action, studied his personal art collection, or even been exposed to the particular culture Kirk was brought up in will make it a more even battle.

Acutal a point here... What Pschoyoglocial Dis-advantages does Thrawn know of Humans? Remeber the Insident where he cleans up the Eolm taskforce which was slight less powerful than his own with minor damange by expolting a Psyocological problem with Eolms to force there formation into somthing he could explote and did to devestating effect

What does he know of Humans that he could use or prehaps has never needed to use up to this point

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-09-12 11:24pm

Darth Eris wrote:Thrawn does make mistakes, sometimes rather costly ones. However, he can usually find a way to emerge as the victor. Kirk can do about the same thing, but he relies more on his instincts and split-second decisions than cool logic and pre-planned battle tactics. The fact that Kirk is a good commander, coupled with the fact that Thrawn has never seen him in action, studied his personal art collection, or even been exposed to the particular culture Kirk was brought up in will make it a more even battle. However, as Thrawn and his crew do have far more experience with ISDs, this will give them a big edge over Kirk and his crew. I think Thrawn will win after a fairly nasty battle that leaves both ships crippled to an extent. Maybe Thrawn will be impressed enough with Kirk to offer him a job in the Unknown Regions?

Who are you and why are you posting rationally? Hmmm?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-09-12 11:37pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:Thrawn would be the victor here but i think that his ISD would need major repairs. Kirk would not go down easy a i feel would do major damage to Thrawn's ISD.
Kirk died worthlessly in Generations.

MoO, Generations simply DOES NOT exist in my mind. It NEVER happened...at least the parts with Kirk never did. It was some hallucination of Picard's caused by some bad Earl Gray tea

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-09-12 11:51pm

Wouldn't Thrawn be misled? My reasoning behind this is that Thrawn is used to the humans (that we all know as modern real-life humans) in the SW galaxy, while Kirk and his whole crew are more evolved humans that show mercy and don't fire until absolutely necessary and whatnot. This might throw Thrawn off as he might base his tactics on something he predicts Kirk will do, but really won't, because he isn't like Rebel commanders....he isn't as hostile or defensive as Rebels or anyone else in the SW galaxy. So Thrawn might expect Kirk to immediately send out the TIEs to dogfight and attack his ISD and receive HTL blasts, when Kirk is hailing him! LOL This hailing business might change things as well. Ok, Thrawn would most likely raise his shields and send out his TIEs to defend against incoming enemy TIEs, and then....nothing happens. All of Kirk's TIEs are docked, and he isn't firing any ship defenses. He immediately receives a hail from Kirk. What would Thrawn do? Mercilessly pound on Kirk's ISD or accept the hail? Does he think it is a trick or does he think it is a surrender? If he chooses to communicate with Kirk, does he bother to peacefully resolve the conflict or whatnot or just blow him to hell? Has this ever happened before?

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-09-13 01:00am

Thrawn looks for blind spots common to species, and narrows them down to cultures. The Federation, while different from the Rebels, is predominately human, so they will suffer from some of the things the Rebels suffer. Also, Thrawn will try to avoid fighting, because the ISD preferably remains intact. So if Kirk hails, Thrawn will accept. They then try to talk their way out of the situation, but seeing that Kirk is as stubborn as he is, they'll end up fighting anyway. At which point Thrawn's ability to read his opponents moves will give him the advantage. Remember, he hadn't come into contact with human art when he wasted Kinman Doriana's forces with just six PB's. That means he had to come up with strategies on the go.

Corrected a Spelling Error or two~Mr Bean

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-09-14 02:01pm

Stravo wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:Kirk died worthlessly in Generations.
MoO, Generations simply DOES NOT exist in my mind. It NEVER happened...at least the parts with Kirk never did. It was some hallucination of Picard's caused by some bad Earl Gray tea

Many a Trekkie has uttered incantations to his Sky God praying for "Generations" to be erased from existence ...

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-09-14 02:08pm

Oh all the mistakes Thrawn has made, he only made one critical mistake. Sadly this mistake cost him his life. He should have put a tranciever on the viper droid that was spying on the Noghri. It likely would have been detected earlier, but if it had been able to uplink its data about Lehia and Chewie (which it would have been able to do almost instantly since they rarely hid) and imediately informed Thrawn about what was going on. Yet that was his ONLY critical mistake ever made. Sadly idiots like Dalaa and Isard were able to screw up time and time again and live, but Thrawns one mistake cost him his life.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-09-14 02:15pm

I know some of the Kirk worshippers will be pissed at me for this, but let's take a good look at Kirk's supposed tactical genius, shall we?

"Space Seed": gives a completely anonymous person with no security clearance full access to the classified technical manuals of his starship. Somebody please smack Kirk upside the head.

"ST2": refuses to raise shields despite Starfleet regulations, the approach of a ship which refuses to identify itself, the fact that it would cause no harm, and the entreaties of his own bridge crew.

"ST3": Scores a first hit on the BOP with several shots. Instead of finishing it off with several more shots, he waits calmly for the ship to wallow around until its crew regains control, he waits until they're coming about and preparing to fire, and then he asks Scotty to raise the shields.

"Doomsday Machine": doesn't even think of attacking a massively armoured vessel through its open maw rather than its heavily armoured hull until Decker shows him the way.

"Balance of Terror": widely hailed as the standing proof of his unbeatable tactical genius. But how innovative or brilliant were his tactics? Seriously? He could track the Romulan warbird with his sensors, so it wasn't totally invisible to him (watch the episode; they could track it, but not as accurately as they could if it was visible). He followed it around (duh), he went into full reverse when a torpedo was bearing down on him (duh), and when he foolishly approached a fake Romulan debris field rather than scanning it from a distance, he took damage and then played possum (how original).

Kirk has simply not seen that much space combat. In one engagement against a Klingon warship, he turned his ship around to keep its good shield sectors pointing toward the enemy, and when he finally got warp power back, he simply fired off a salvo at them. Most of his great escapes come from talking to people or talking to computers and thus tricking them out of killing him. In battle, he has not done a particularly good job, and in fact, he has made some critical errors and omissions, some of which should have led to a court-martial or disciplinary hearing (especially in ST2).

Thrawn, on the other hand, has seen a lot of space combat. I like Kirk as a character, but as a military officer, he leaves much to be desired (although he is still far, far better than his TNG/DS9/VOY counterparts). It's not even close.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-09-14 02:23pm

Alyeska wrote:Oh all the mistakes Thrawn has made, he only made one critical mistake. Sadly this mistake cost him his life. He should have put a tranciever on the viper droid that was spying on the Noghri. It likely would have been detected earlier, but if it had been able to uplink its data about Lehia and Chewie (which it would have been able to do almost instantly since they rarely hid) and imediately informed Thrawn about what was going on. Yet that was his ONLY critical mistake ever made. Sadly idiots like Dalaa and Isard were able to screw up time and time again and live, but Thrawns one mistake cost him his life.

It extends slightly further than that. The true failure was not knowing that Leia was Vader's daughter. It was that information which led to Noghri betrayal, but, realistically, Thrawn could never know about this information.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-09-14 02:29pm

SirNitram wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Oh all the mistakes Thrawn has made, he only made one critical mistake. Sadly this mistake cost him his life. He should have put a tranciever on the viper droid that was spying on the Noghri. It likely would have been detected earlier, but if it had been able to uplink its data about Lehia and Chewie (which it would have been able to do almost instantly since they rarely hid) and imediately informed Thrawn about what was going on. Yet that was his ONLY critical mistake ever made. Sadly idiots like Dalaa and Isard were able to screw up time and time again and live, but Thrawns one mistake cost him his life.
It extends slightly further than that. The true failure was not knowing that Leia was Vader's daughter. It was that information which led to Noghri betrayal, but, realistically, Thrawn could never know about this information.

I know it wasn't common knowledge, but I thought Thrawn knew. How interesting. Pitty Thrawn didn't have full acess to the entire Imperial databank. I bet there was a reference in there somewhere. But Thrawn had no reason to suspect. It was a combination of a mistake and a bad situation.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-14 02:41pm

I know it wasn't common knowledge, but I thought Thrawn knew. How interesting. Pitty Thrawn didn't have full acess to the entire Imperial databank. I bet there was a reference in there somewhere. But Thrawn had no reason to suspect

No see theres the thing few people knew Darth Vadar used used to be Anakin... Fewer still knew that Luke had a sister and it was Leia

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Thrawn and Kirk in ISDs

Thrawn and Imps or Kirk And Feds?