Defiant Vs. Millennium Falcon

[Master of Ossus]

Wow. I've never seen a single episode of TNG where they actually fire torpedoes.

They almost never engage in combat in TNG, but they do fire torpedoes from time to time. Incidentally, they do have a minimum range, but curiously their shields do not seem to be able to withstand a proximity blast from their own weapons! In fact, until Barclay (with his new, uber-brain power), boosted the shield's power by 400% in seconds through the tried-and-true method of uber-technobabble, the E-D was in danger of being utterly destroyed by a SINGLE SPREAD of its own torpedoes, fired at an alien probe! Given the torpedo's known weakness, this does not speak highly for Trek shields in the vs. SW capacity, but it also indicates that ST ships do have a minimum safe range for their weapons.

[HemlockGrey]

In TNG, to date, I've seen them use the ship's phasers once, and I've seen one hand phaser be fired.

I haven't seen much DS9, but I do remember seeing some ship-to-ship combat. Wasn't very good.

In Voyager, most was crap, but I hardly ever saw them fight; even when a planet was shooting antimatter torps at them, they refused to fire!

I did see a fairly decent episode in which Hirogen had activated the Holodeck all over the ship, leading to a WW2-style enviroment.

TOS, I've seen 'em all. Not much combat, but that can be excused due to tech limitations.

Enterprise...some firefights, but I thought they only had lasers and plasma bullet guns before Kirk's era...?

[TheDarkling]

MOO: Except we have seen Trek ships actually take torp hits (from other SF ships, Klingon ships (or should be on the same level), Romulans etc etc).

The only conclusion is that for some reason the torps wold do more damage against the ship that fired it (make the explosion is directed on the shield frequency since it must come throught the shield (a reach I know)).

Otherwise it makes no sense whatsoever.

[Cal Wright]

The Falcon carries concussion missiles. Which are actually more powerful than proton torpedos carried by X-Wing, Y-Wing, and B-Wing fighters. It should be noted that concussion missiles are also standard equipment on A-Wing fighters. Not to mention the quad guns might not be a thread to a larger scale capital ship, however the Defiant is a different story. The Falcon has proven itself beyond Han's words. The Falcon has out run ships, out manuvered fighters, and out gunned said fighters. She also carries very powerful warheads, which have been shown to have the punch and the ability to stay on target of a very small, overly manuverable craft.

Actually, didn't the Falcon carry heavy concussion missiles that were supposely as powerful as proton torpedoes (not including concussion missiles' innate anti-armour ability)?

The novelisation says nothing about heavy, or advanced. When Wedge and Lando enter the chamber, Wedge exclaims that it's too big and that his proton torpedos won't even dent it. Lando orders him to take the north tower, and that they were carrying concussion missiles that should penetrate.

[Lord Poe]

If the Falcon hung dead in space, then yes, the Defiant could damage it considerably. In virtually all the engagements the Defiant has been in, it MISSES its intended target, EVEN WITH PHASERS LOCKED (DS9's The Search, part 1) for the first six shots. You can see this here:

http://h4h.com/louis/trekmiss.rm

In an actual engagement, I honestly doubt the Defiant would be able to tag the Falcon at all. This would be highly unlikely even if it used its phaser array. As stated in VGR's "Dragon's Teeth", a highly maneuverable ship can make a phaser lock difficult.

We know in SW that proton and concussion missile can home in on targets, AND are highly maneuverable. I've never seen a torpedo fired by the Defiant or the Enterprise D or E home in on anything.

[Master of Ossus]

MOO: Except we have seen Trek ships actually take torp hits (from other SF ships, Klingon ships (or should be on the same level), Romulans etc etc).

The only conclusion is that for some reason the torps wold do more damage against the ship that fired it (make the explosion is directed on the shield frequency since it must come throught the shield (a reach I know)).

Otherwise it makes no sense whatsoever.

Hmmm... good explanation, Darkling. It's as good as any I've seen for that apparent contradiction.

[seanrobertson]

Those concussion missiles can't simply be ignored. Given the heavy firepower demonstrated by Slave-1's missiles against inert asteroids in AOTC, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to imagine that with an appropriate missile load-out, the Falcon could reduce Defiant to scrap with one hit.

Agreed.

I'd agree that its guns are not meant for engaging heavier enemies; they are obviously meant strictly for use against snub fighters. But its forward-firing missiles would be lethal unless they deliberately load up with low-yield warheads (which is not fair for the scenario), and it has enough maneuverability to line up a good shot.

Of course, if those missiles had that of Slave-One's tracking
abilities...(evil laugh)

How effective are these rear-facing weapons, and why weren't they used in "Way of the Warrior"?

Let me check the script right fast. I think they were lost sometime
shortly after the Vor'cha attacked her.

Here it is:

Suddenly, the Defiant is hit again. This is the most
violent hit of all. Several N.D. crewmembers are
knocked to the deck. Various systems on the bridge
spark.

DAX
Ablative armor has failed. We've
got plasma leaks on decks two,
three and five, and we've lost
our aft torpedo launchers.

Whoops. That's not when the D was first attacked; I was wrong
about that. However, they were using their tractor beam to
reduce the Klingons' disruptor effectiveness. Maybe that would
interfere with their torpedos.

More likely, however, is the fact that the Vor'cha was
within a couple of kilometers of the D. We know that at that
range, especially without shields, pho/quantorps can be
deadly to the launching ship.

Makes sense, although I would point out that given the firepower demonstrated by Slave-1 in the Geonosis asteroid belts, kiloton-range starfighter weapons are not at all unreasonable. And TIE fighters would charge up their guns to fire max-power shots against a slower, larger foe. The increased vulnerability to a multi-vector attack is still there, but not as large as you seem to be suggesting.

Plus, TIEs might have superior laser cannons to Fett's ship. I've
read that, since they're apparently shieldless and require their
pilots to wear spacesuits, their main thrust is to deliver heavy
firepower with great maneuverability.

Why would a proximity blast affect all of its shields? Geometrically speaking, if you have a deflector shield which is broken up into, say, 4 sectors, virtually all of a proximity blast would affect just one of those four segments, with only small percentages reaching one or perhaps 2 other segments and nothing at all reaching the fourth segment.

My bad: I wasn't clear enough. I meant that I'd detonate the torpedos
in a staggered approach: one to either side, one ventral, one dorsal, simultaneously if possible. I don't know how feasible such a maneuver is,
since the only time I recall any such thing being attempted was in
the "Booby Trap" asteroid field (one torpedo directed toward each the asteroids with the aceton assimilators and one toward the hulk).

Have we ever actually seen it launch four q-torps aft in battle? Or is this one of those technical capabilities that mysteriously disappears in action, like the E-D's mythical ability to fire 20 torps per spread? If it has such heavy rear-facing firepower, why did it need to pull a loop to get behind a Jem'Hadar cockroach that was on its "six" in battle?

Good question...I dunno, other than the fact that torpedos at such range
might've been deemed unwise. If the D had taken much damage,
she'd probably lost the aft weapons. I'd overlooked the fact that her
weapons are knocked offline rather easily in my earlier comments.
That seemed to be a fascination with VGR and DS9 writers moreso than
the people behind TNG, who had their warp core fetish. Some are
the same...they just became more enamored of torpedos than warp
cores. Ugh!

I'm almost certain we have seen the aft tubes fire four torpedos in rapid succession/under a second, but I'll need to dig to find it. I do know Sisko orders the aft launchers to fire on a Jem'Hadar ship in "The Die Is Cast,"
disabling it...but how many torpedos that might indicate varies
wildly. (In "Valiant," six "maximum yield" quantums were required
to destroy a heavily damaged bug. But in "Call To Arms," two
photon torpedos blew one away.)

So I'm thinking less and less that Defiant would have an easy
time...it's important that the Falcon carry substantive missiles,
but as you said, that's only really fair.

[Sea Skimmer]

Wow. I've never seen a single episode of TNG where they actually fire torpedoes.

They almost never engage in combat in TNG, but they do fire torpedoes from time to time. Incidentally, they do have a minimum range, but curiously their shields do not seem to be able to withstand a proximity blast from their own weapons! In fact, until Barclay (with his new, uber-brain power), boosted the shield's power by 400% in seconds through the tried-and-true method of uber-technobabble, the E-D was in danger of being utterly destroyed by a SINGLE SPREAD of its own torpedoes, fired at an alien probe! Given the torpedo's known weakness, this does not speak highly for Trek shields in the vs. SW capacity, but it also indicates that ST ships do have a minimum safe range for their weapons.

Actually it was a single torpedo..

[seanrobertson]

MOO: Except we have seen Trek ships actually take torp hits (from other SF ships, Klingon ships (or should be on the same level), Romulans etc etc).

The only conclusion is that for some reason the torps wold do more damage against the ship that fired it (make the explosion is directed on the shield frequency since it must come throught the shield (a reach I know)).

Otherwise it makes no sense whatsoever.

Hmmm... good explanation, Darkling. It's as good as any I've seen for that apparent contradiction.

Agreed.

We have a few instances of torpedos, aft torpedos in particular,
not being used for fear of blowing up the ship firing them.
"Q Who?" comes to mind. Michael's entry in the canon database
yields this dialogue:


RIKER: Lock on photon torpedoes.
WORF: Yes, sir.
DATA: Without our shields -- at this range there is a high degree of probability that a photon detonation could destroy the Enterprise.


Good old Worf...always ready to kick the bucket just so he can shoot
something.

Then there's "The Nth Degree." I don't have any dialogue from it,
but the Cytherian probe had closed on the E-D and proven impervious
to their "hottest phasers" (since these were firing rear-ward, which
would require a smaller strip, this isn't surprising). Laforge says
that a photorp spread wouldn't be smart, as the shields were failing
or had failed altogether. Barclay figures out a way to boost shield
power significantly, so they launch a spread of three torpedos anyway.

The only contradiction I can recall from TNG is when the E-D fires
on an adrift Federation ship...some kind of Miranda variant
IIRC. The E-D was right on top of that ship in the visuals as I recall.
Maybe the torpedos weren't set near maximum, and simply targetted
the warp core...but then again, why would multiple low-yield torpedos
be used when one higher-yield blast would do the same thing?

[Alyeska]

If the Falcon hung dead in space, then yes, the Defiant could damage it considerably. In virtually all the engagements the Defiant has been in, it MISSES its intended target, EVEN WITH PHASERS LOCKED (DS9's The Search, part 1) for the first six shots. You can see this here:

http://h4h.com/louis/trekmiss.rm

In an actual engagement, I honestly doubt the Defiant would be able to tag the Falcon at all. This would be highly unlikely even if it used its phaser array. As stated in VGR's "Dragon's Teeth", a highly maneuverable ship can make a phaser lock difficult.

We know in SW that proton and concussion missile can home in on targets, AND are highly maneuverable. I've never seen a torpedo fired by the Defiant or the Enterprise D or E home in on anything.

That is in regards to the PPCs only. The Quantum Torps have missed a target only once (episode where Tom Riker steals it) and the beam phasers have yet to miss anything. PPCs while fixed axis can easily be used to fire randomly near the Falcon forcing the Falcon to put power to the engines and keep shields equalized. This also makes it harder for the Falcon to get a lock on the Defiant. The PPCs can't be totally discounted and a direct hit is sure to score damage to the Falcon.

[seanrobertson]

Actually it was a single torpedo..

I'm pretty sure it was three. I saw that episode not too long ago.
It's one of the few that I can watch several times on TNN without
getting really bored with Troi's talking, cute-looking as she was.

[Master of Ossus]

That is in regards to the PPCs only. The Quantum Torps have missed a target only once (episode where Tom Riker steals it) and the beam phasers have yet to miss anything. PPCs while fixed axis can easily be used to fire randomly near the Falcon forcing the Falcon to put power to the engines and keep shields equalized. This also makes it harder for the Falcon to get a lock on the Defiant. The PPCs can't be totally discounted and a direct hit is sure to score damage to the Falcon.

And how many times have we seen a quantum torpedo hit a small, maneuverable target? A direct hit may cause damage to the Falcon, but no more than a turbolaser impact, and the Falcon has stood up to several of those in the past. I really don't see how the Defiant could win this fight, consistently.

[Alyeska]

That is in regards to the PPCs only. The Quantum Torps have missed a target only once (episode where Tom Riker steals it) and the beam phasers have yet to miss anything. PPCs while fixed axis can easily be used to fire randomly near the Falcon forcing the Falcon to put power to the engines and keep shields equalized. This also makes it harder for the Falcon to get a lock on the Defiant. The PPCs can't be totally discounted and a direct hit is sure to score damage to the Falcon.

And how many times have we seen a quantum torpedo hit a small, maneuverable target? A direct hit may cause damage to the Falcon, but no more than a turbolaser impact, and the Falcon has stood up to several of those in the past. I really don't see how the Defiant could win this fight, consistently.

The Defiants beam phasers can hit the Falcon at off angles, and in the very minimum they are equal in firepower to the Falcon's Quads. The Quantums can be set to detonate, which has been shown. The Quantums and PPCs can be used as supression fire. The Falcon relies more heavily on its forward arc, and if the captain of the Defiant was smart they could supress the Falcon in that respect and therefor make superior use of the Defiants more well spread out weaponry. The longer this battle is drawn out, the more of an advantage this is for the Defiant. If the Falcon is to win, it must score direct hits at the very begining with its missiles.

[Master of Ossus]

You do, of course, realize that the Falcon's quad turrets are not remotely based around its frontal arc, and only its missile launchers and very light laster cannon are dedicated to firing forward, don't you? Actually, the Falcon has better observed weapons coverage than the Defiant.

[Chris OFarrell]

Well just a few points.

Firstly on the Defiants:
First the Definat isn't designed for dogfighting. The Forward PPC's are fixed axis weapons. From what I recall, they basicly have the majority of the ships energy weapons power channeled through them. The design makes sense for its purpose, the ship was designed for massed pack attacks on big Borg cubes, accuracy of the guns was not realy a major factor. For pinpoint attacks, the ship has three phaser emmiters of unknown power that can target off the front arc including above, behind and forward. I don't know if it can track side to side though. Even though the Pulse Phasers are not designed to hit ships as small as the Falcon, they have a high enough rate of fire they can saturate the area enough to score hits if the Falcon is in its front arc. While the Defiant often misses with its first shots, almost all the time it walks the fire into the target within a second or two. Of course this could very well be the prefered attack pattern with the pulse phasers, to walk their fire into it or such.

The ship has two forward firing torpedo launchers seen many times and at least one aft firing launcher. We have seen single torpedoes launched from it and Siskos comments in TDIC appear to confirm that is has twin aft launchers. While I dobut at the ranges the fight is taking place the Defiant will be able to score a direct hit, the torpedoes may well be able to be detonated close enough to scrap the Falcon.

In manouverability, personaly the Falcon to me does not appear to have a real advantage. It does appear to be more manouverable, but not by as larger factor as people here appear to think.

The weapons the Falcon has are iffy. The Quads I don't think are going to be a threat to the Defiant, at least until its shields are cut off. The key here is the Falcons missile complement. It has changed over time in different books. Example, in the NJO time period and the New Rebelion time period, it only has concussion missiles. In TCOPL, the Falcon has proton torpedoes of relativly limited power as well as concussion missiles AND ion cannons. I don't think we realy have any soild yields on the weapons the Falcon has. They appear to be armor penetrating weapons from the dialouge in the ROTJ novel but in terms of yeild its hard to tell.

Now some other points on some points raised here.

Firstly, the idea that the ship can't withstand its own torpedoes is very questionable. I mean, we have seen starships TAKE direct photon torpedo impacts, even ones from their own ships, the idea that one of their own torpedoes blowing up near them is going to kill them is realy questionable. Datas statement in Q-Who isn't that an explosion WILL destroy the ship, just that there is a high probability that it will. The ship was already damaged to a degree and had lost the warp core a second ago, given that the TNG era GCS will fall appart at the drop of a hat, its possible a photon explosion that close might have caused enough damage to make ship go boom or something.

Also, when Riker comments that using photon torpedoes that close could destroy them, I very much dobut he was talking about the explosive effect of the weapons themselves. Firstly the ship has more then once taken direct photon hits to its shields (which were fully operational at the time) without a problem and I discount the idea that the ship would be vunurable to its own photons for some reason. The probe that was closing on them was emmiting an energy field that was growing in power to the point where it became a danger to the ship. At a guess, I would say the destruction of the probe would have caused an explosion powerful enough to kill the Enterprise.

*Note from that episode. The energy field around the probe came on and started at 1 TW, increasing to an unknown level of power, several minuites later the power from the probe was enough to cause the shields to collapse within a minuite.*

They tried to use the phasers to kill the probe when they said the photons might have crippled it. As such, I think they were trying to NDF it safely, not explode it.

Back on topic, I think the Defiant should take it assuming the crew on it don't get cocky. However if they let it get in close, into the standard starfighter ranges the Falcons weapons are able to kill at and its carrying heavy anti ship warheads, the Defiant may well get a rather nasty surprise rather suddenly.

[Cpt_Frank]

The weapons the Falcon has are iffy. The Quads I don't think are going to be a threat to the Defiant, at least until its shields are cut off. The key here is the Falcons missile complement. It has changed over time in different books. Example, in the NJO time period and the New Rebelion time period, it only has concussion missiles. In TCOPL, the Falcon has proton torpedoes of relativly limited power as well as concussion missiles AND ion cannons. I don't think we realy have any soild yields on the weapons the Falcon has. They appear to be armor penetrating weapons from the dialouge in the ROTJ novel but in terms of yeild its hard to tell.

So basically you're admitting you have no reason to assume the yield of the Falcon's missiles is not as high as those found on the Slave1.

[Chris OFarrell]

The weapons the Falcon has are iffy. The Quads I don't think are going to be a threat to the Defiant, at least until its shields are cut off. The key here is the Falcons missile complement. It has changed over time in different books. Example, in the NJO time period and the New Rebelion time period, it only has concussion missiles. In TCOPL, the Falcon has proton torpedoes of relativly limited power as well as concussion missiles AND ion cannons. I don't think we realy have any soild yields on the weapons the Falcon has. They appear to be armor penetrating weapons from the dialouge in the ROTJ novel but in terms of yeild its hard to tell.

So basically you're admitting you have no reason to assume the yield of the Falcon's missiles is not as high as those found on the Slave1.

And I have found nothing to claim that they are. The missiles on slave 1 were differnet in size AND colour, they were clearly a different weapon. Proving a negative isn't the way to solve this question. Its up to you to PROVE their power, not me to disprove that their power is not the same.

[Mr Bean]

Indeed he is correct on the first part that the Slave 1 Torps where not somthing the Falcon has ever carried before.

However if WEG is to be belived there are Giga-ton level Torps out there equal nearly to a HTL in its words that are carrable by Fighters...

Now then if thats true the Falcon has two possible four chances to hit the Defiant with 200 GTs of loving Assuming of course it is carrying those torps that is, But agian load-out is the most important part of the little debate as depending on it the Falcon will smoke the Defiant or the Defiant will smoke the Falcon. Unless of course the Falcon pulls in tight on the mid-section of the Defanit(where it lacks weapons) Slaps on with a Tractor beam to hold it in place then just burrows away, If the Defiant Drops a torp to kill the Falcon it will Die as well... meaning Draw


A few diffrent options on this one

[Slartibartfast]

I'm sorry but I belive there's no reason to assume that the Falcon's weapons are iffy or that its quads are no threat to the Defiant - even if superior firepower of blasters and turbolasers hadn't been demostrated - saying that "ship A's guns are no threat to ship B, but ship B's guns are" are empty claims. "Because I say so" just don't cut it.

Having no evidence of the contrary then it's only fair and sportsmanlike to assume that the quad lasers and the PPCs are equivalent in firepower, photon/quantum torpedoes are the equivalent of concussion missiles or proton torps. And then shields would be basically the same - then victory will only depend on speed and manoeuvreability.

If we assume those things, then the Falcon will definitely kick the living hell out of the Defiant (also note that the Falcon during ANH or TESB is under-manned, and with a full crew compliment it's a real threat to any other ship in the same size range, as seen in ROTJ)

IF we assume those things (which is very generous) because so far, everything I've read points to superior firepower.

[Darth Wong]

So basically you're admitting you have no reason to assume the yield of the Falcon's missiles is not as high as those found on the Slave1.

And I have found nothing to claim that they are. The missiles on slave 1 were differnet in size AND colour, they were clearly a different weapon. Proving a negative isn't the way to solve this question. Its up to you to PROVE their power, not me to disprove that their power is not the same.

You are assuming that the Falcon has fixed types of missiles, as if it cannot simply change its loadout to suit a given mission.

If someone said that there was no evidence that Voyager can fire Q-torps, you would retort that this is absurd; as long as the Q-torp fits into the launcher, there is no good reason to assume it couldn't fire Q-torps if it had a supply on hand. Similarly, there's no good reason to assume that given the size and firepower of Slave-1's mines and missiles, the Falcon couldn't load up high-yield anti-ship missiles if it wanted to.

Is it GUARANTEED that the Falcon would be carrying high-yield missiles during the engagement? Not necessarily, but in the interest of fairness, it seems only reasonable to assume that the Falcon would not enter this engagement armed only with light weapons, and if one has to skew the scenario by assuming that one party is poorly prepared, the outcome is meaningless.

[Cal Wright]

Well just a few points.

Firstly on the Defiants:
First the Definat isn't designed for dogfighting. The Forward PPC's are fixed axis weapons. From what I recall, they basicly have the majority of the ships energy weapons power channeled through them. The design makes sense for its purpose, the ship was designed for massed pack attacks on big Borg cubes, accuracy of the guns was not realy a major factor. For pinpoint attacks, the ship has three phaser emmiters of unknown power that can target off the front arc including above, behind and forward. I don't know if it can track side to side though. Even though the Pulse Phasers are not designed to hit ships as small as the Falcon, they have a high enough rate of fire they can saturate the area enough to score hits if the Falcon is in its front arc. While the Defiant often misses with its first shots, almost all the time it walks the fire into the target within a second or two. Of course this could very well be the prefered attack pattern with the pulse phasers, to walk their fire into it or such.

Just to point out, it's primary puprose, to take on Borg Cubes, ain't worth shit, (ref. First Contact.) It's secondary purpose, to kick ass, aint' happening either. I believe Mr. Poe has posted a link to the video pieced together showing numerous battle engagements. Consistently, the Defiant missed the majority of it's shots. I am not saying it never hit anything mind you. I am saying that even with it's 'lock' that it's a poor shot. The Falcon in the midst of the Battle of Endor managed to blast TIEs apart without haveing to 'walk' it's fire in. Those were far smaller, far faster, and far more manuverable ships also.

The ship has two forward firing torpedo launchers seen many times and at least one aft firing launcher. We have seen single torpedoes launched from it and Siskos comments in TDIC appear to confirm that is has twin aft launchers. While I dobut at the ranges the fight is taking place the Defiant will be able to score a direct hit, the torpedoes may well be able to be detonated close enough to scrap the Falcon.

Those would have to be some hellasious blasts from those torps. This is the Millenium Falcon, reciever of many, many gigaton shots imparted from ISDs. Not to mention ensuing TIE Fighter blasts and the occasional asteroid.

In manouverability, personaly the Falcon to me does not appear to have a real advantage. It does appear to be more manouverable, but not by as larger factor as people here appear to think.

Oh yeah? When was the last time the Defiant did a 90* ventral dive while barrel rolling avoiding massed TIE fighter shots and larger heavier turbolaser blasts? Has the Defiant ever manuvered through a heavy and violent asteroid field, only taking a few hits at the beginning when an inexperienced pilot was flying straight ahead? Has the Defiant ever gone head to head with an Imperial Star Destroyer, and then did a 90* dive and attach itself the back of said ships bridge (this is a testement to it's deceleration capabilities as well.). How about the u turn the Falcon made before it started that run? I don't remember such manuverbility being demonstrated by the Defiant as when the Falcon flew across the landscape of a 900km battlestation. The Defiant is a wash tub in the Star Wars universe.

The weapons the Falcon has are iffy

No, they are quad laser canons. with a 360* arc. Not to mention a forward hidden laser canon on a swivel mount. In addition are it's concussion missile payloads.

The Quads I don't think are going to be a threat to the Defiant,

Oh really? How is this so again?

at least until its shields are cut off.

Which the quads would have pounded away. So basically, the quads are a factor in this battle.

The key here is the Falcons missile complement.

No, it's key is that it is overly manuverable, fast has powerful guns that can cover every arc, and it's ability to dance around it's opponent in this engagement will allow it to drop off the concussion missiles, tearing apart the pinto in a world full of corvettes.

It has changed over time in different books.

A prime example why I go in order. Movies, script, novelisation, radio dramas, ICS, VDs, and then on to the EU novels, and following sourcebooks.

Example, in the NJO time period and the New Rebelion time period, it only has concussion missiles.

Which in the RotJ novelisation, Lando says the same thing. That they are carrying concussion missiles. These are the same type of warhead carried by the RZ-1 A-Wing Fighter. The two fighters that helped take down the Executor. Those things pack a punch.

In TCOPL, the Falcon has proton torpedoes of relativly limited power as well as concussion missiles AND ion cannons.

It's the swiss army knife with an engine. That's some ship.

I don't think we realy have any soild yields on the weapons the Falcon has.

Yet you confidently said that the quad lasers wouldnt be a bother to the Defiant until the sheild was down. Seems you imply that even with the sheild down it would be, 'iffy.' In all likeliness, the quad lasers could strip the sheilds right off the Defiant in one blast. Or possibly the dual launch of concussion missiles would make the Defiant nothing more than a pothole.

They appear to be armor penetrating weapons from the dialouge in the ROTJ novel but in terms of yeild its hard to tell.

The missiles are enough to punch into the armor of the DS II core. I doubt that thing is any weaker than the Defiant's hull. Nothing solid I can say, but given it's about the size of an ISD, this shouldnt much of a stretch.

Back on topic, I think the Defiant should take it assuming the crew on it don't get cocky.

Or incompetent, or ignorant, or poor marksmen, or whiners. Something that plagued them in every fight and episode of DS9

However if they let it get in close, into the standard starfighter ranges the Falcons weapons are able to kill at and its carrying heavy anti ship warheads, the Defiant may well get a rather nasty surprise rather suddenly

Who says the Falcon has to get in close? The Defiant can't hit ships the size of a barn at close ranges with thier preferred weapons the pulse phasers. The Falcon can tackle TIE Fighters, the size of cars with the manuverability of a friggin insect. I said it once, I'll say it again. The Falcon will take this one easier than a cake walk. Hmm. Cake. HMMM!!

[Cal Wright]

That is in regards to the PPCs only. The Quantum Torps have missed a target only once (episode where Tom Riker steals it) and the beam phasers have yet to miss anything. PPCs while fixed axis can easily be used to fire randomly near the Falcon forcing the Falcon to put power to the engines and keep shields equalized. This also makes it harder for the Falcon to get a lock on the Defiant. The PPCs can't be totally discounted and a direct hit is sure to score damage to the Falcon.

If PPCs you mean the pulse phasers, the Defiant will only be firing at the Falcon's aft. Unless the manage some form of strafing run. This however is unlikely giving the difference in each ship's manuverability. The Falcon however, does not have to gain a lock on the Defiant. The dorsal and ventral quad laser canons can easily stay on target while the Falcon is manuvering. I for one am not discounting the phasers at all. They are the main weapon of the ship. Although it would take more than a direct hit to score damage to the Falcon. Multiple turbolaser blasts, coupled with TIE Fighter shots and asteroids says enough about the strength of the shields.

[Cal Wright]

The Defiants beam phasers can hit the Falcon at off angles, and in the very minimum they are equal in firepower to the Falcon's Quads. The Quantums can be set to detonate, which has been shown. The Quantums and PPCs can be used as supression fire. The Falcon relies more heavily on its forward arc, and if the captain of the Defiant was smart they could supress the Falcon in that respect and therefor make superior use of the Defiants more well spread out weaponry. The longer this battle is drawn out, the more of an advantage this is for the Defiant. If the Falcon is to win, it must score direct hits at the very begining with its missiles.

The Falcon doesn't have a dedicated arc. It would be easier for the pilot, however if there are gunnes it isn't an issue. Since the Defiant should have a full crew, so should the Falcon. As seen in RotJ they had four occupants in the cockpit, plus gunners. The novelisation states that while traveling down the DS II the gunners kept the pursuing TIE Fighters 'jumping' in the comfined space. Once again though someone is claiming that the only thing the Falcon has that can do any form of damage is the concussion missiles. Where is everyone getting thier info that the quads are weak little pea shooters.

Also this pertains to another post and this one. In Courtship of Princess Leia, Leia and Isolder take the dorsal and ventral quad canons. It then says that Luke used the ion canons on the transport the nightsisters were escaping on. Then it mentions Luke firing proton torpdos. After reaching orbit and being mixed in with the battle, Han looks at his readouts. Sees that he had a few concussion missiles left but was out of proton torpedos. If we go on that, then it looks like the Falcon is more heavily armed than orginally though. No chance for the Defiant.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

Don't Listen to Chris O'Farrell He's a troll. He doesn't even have the Balls to Re: my thread on Starbursting tech in SW and ST. Fuckin Douche bag!!

[Cal Wright]

Isn't he from SB.com?