federation vs the rebels

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-07-04 01:15am

What facilities have we ever seen anywhere but Earth and Mars, besides the odd quick-kill starbase?

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-04 01:15am

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote: And yet an Admiral was going to take over the Federation and Starfleet by taking over Earth. What's that? Canon proof for my assertion and only speculation for yours... must suck to be you.

Anyway I was only going with Straks worstcase argument, the 4-5 planets whereas they would probably be able to detroy more than that before SF could even rally a defence. Hit the named ones first and then go after the others before thy can react. mix that with strikes against ships in space and you have a dismantled and confused AQ not sure of which ways up.
An Admiral was simply gaining control of Earth, he wasn't trying to take over the entire Federation...in fact there is no evidence that he could have taken over the entire UFP by gaining control of Earth. There is also no evidence that he had control of everything Starfleet.

I'm not debating the fact that Rebel ships could probably destroy many planets, but claiming that 4-5 is enough to bring down the UFP just isn't realistic.

The whole point of him taking over the Earth was to take over the Federation and Starfleet so he could change how they dealt with the Changlings. You have watched the show haven't you? So it's perfectly feasible that to knock out the five named planets would cripple the response of the AQ enough so that the Rest of the SW ships could take advantage of it and destroy the AQ fleets in the ensuing chaos... oh wait I already said that in the part of the message you quoted but you snipped and then failed to address.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-07-04 01:27am

Rob Wilson wrote:
The whole point of him taking over the Earth was to take over the Federation and Starfleet so he could change how they dealt with the Changlings. You have watched the show haven't you? So it's perfectly feasible that to knock out the five named planets would cripple the response of the AQ enough so that the Rest of the SW ships could take advantage of it and destroy the AQ fleets in the ensuing chaos... oh wait I already said that in the part of the message you quoted but you snipped and then failed to address.

"What I’m asking you to do is to let us defend this planet” - Admiral Leyton
“with those troops on the streets, Admiral Leyton controls Earth” - Sisko

Sisko also accuses Leyton of attempting to seize control of Earth and place it under military rule. He says nothing of seizing control of the UFP or Starfleet.

I am curious though. What was said in that episode that makes you think the Admiral was trying to seize control of the UFP and Starfleet?

The only point I am contesting is this "BDZ on four or five planets before the federation will have no ability to wage war even by their own limited standards."

That is the only point I am trying to contest. The UFP will still be able to wage war.

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-07-04 01:42am

We know from the DS9 Dominion story arc that Earth is expected to be the center of a post-Federation defeat Federation resistance and that Weyoun figures he can stop this by devastating Earth.

I understand that in the upcoming ST:X, Shinzon thinks that if he can destroy Earth, he will bring down the Federation.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-07-04 01:54am

Doomriser wrote:We know from the DS9 Dominion story arc that Earth is expected to be the center of a post-Federation defeat Federation resistance and that Weyoun figures he can stop this by devastating Earth.

I understand that in the upcoming ST:X, Shinzon thinks that if he can destroy Earth, he will bring down the Federation.

Very good point. hmmm.....

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-04 03:39am

The whole question is if destroying earth will destroy the Federation is moot in my opinion.
Just go and BDZ Earth. After such a demonstration of your capabilities the Feddies will
1.Shit their pants and
2.Certainly not keep on fighting but surrender.
After you've destroyed Earth, and maybe even Betazoid and Vulcan, they will certainly not risk to lose any more planets. They're just too pacifist and morally superior to fight a battle they can't win.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-04 07:53am

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote:
The whole point of him taking over the Earth was to take over the Federation and Starfleet so he could change how they dealt with the Changlings. You have watched the show haven't you? So it's perfectly feasible that to knock out the five named planets would cripple the response of the AQ enough so that the Rest of the SW ships could take advantage of it and destroy the AQ fleets in the ensuing chaos... oh wait I already said that in the part of the message you quoted but you snipped and then failed to address.
"What I’m asking you to do is to let us defend this planet” - Admiral Leyton
“with those troops on the streets, Admiral Leyton controls Earth” - Sisko

Sisko also accuses Leyton of attempting to seize control of Earth and place it under military rule. He says nothing of seizing control of the UFP or Starfleet.

I am curious though. What was said in that episode that makes you think the Admiral was trying to seize control of the UFP and Starfleet?

The only point I am contesting is this "BDZ on four or five planets before the federation will have no ability to wage war even by their own limited standards."

That is the only point I am trying to contest. The UFP will still be able to wage war.

We'll ignore the conversation between Sisko and Leyton when Sisko's in jail as it's only inferred that Leyton will impose martial Law on the Whole Federation as he talks exclusively about taking over Earth. instead we'll go to the showdown in Leytons Office. I'll be using [UFP President] because I don't know how to spell the alien name.

Sisko : Even if you manage to oust [UFP President], you still lose. We all Lose.

Leyton : I can't say I agree with you.

Sisko : Do you think other Federation worlds will sit back are going to sit back and let their President to be replaced with a military dictatorship?

Leyton : Hardly a dictatorship, Ben.

Sisko : Overthrowing a legitimately elected President and giving Starfleet direct control over the Government. It sounds like a dictatorship to me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one to think so.

Leyton was replacing the Government and President of the entire Federation a Military - Starfleet with him in control.

That's what made me think he wanted to seize control of the Federation and Starfleet. He admitted to it.

As to them being able to wage a war after Earth is taken out. How well did they manage immediately after the Breen attack on Earth and specifically Starfleet HQ?

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2002-07-04 11:21am

Well... it's a question of Kirk.

If James T.Kirk is with the Federation, then the Federation will win. But without Kirk, they don't have that much of a chance.....

As everybody's favorite Klingon intellectual, General Chang, would have said...

"So much ado about Kirk...."

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-04 11:37am

Leaving aside this 'good guy always win' or the 'the guys who have Kirk always win' thingy, the Feddies are still badly outgunned by either the Rebellion, or the Galactic Empire in it's near dead state (200 ISD and such).
They're just so pathetically weak they couldn't win.

Tycho · Post by **Tycho** » 2002-07-04 12:27pm

Lets assume that Star Trek outguns either the Rebellion or the Empire in EVERY WAY. 500 YT/sec phasers, lets say, etc.

The GE/Rebellion still will most likely win (the Rebellion less so, though), because of one factor: strategic maneuverability.

They can strike when, where, and how they want. The Star Trek forces will not be able to respond in time. Even if they don't slag the surface within 5 minutes, a huge number of beings will be killed, and all war facilities would be destroyed, and so the planet is rendered all but destroyed.[/i]

David · Post by **David** » 2002-07-04 01:27pm

Yes, in a war those with manuverablity win.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-07-04 02:35pm

Rob Wilson wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote:
The whole point of him taking over the Earth was to take over the Federation and Starfleet so he could change how they dealt with the Changlings. You have watched the show haven't you? So it's perfectly feasible that to knock out the five named planets would cripple the response of the AQ enough so that the Rest of the SW ships could take advantage of it and destroy the AQ fleets in the ensuing chaos... oh wait I already said that in the part of the message you quoted but you snipped and then failed to address.
"What I’m asking you to do is to let us defend this planet” - Admiral Leyton
“with those troops on the streets, Admiral Leyton controls Earth” - Sisko

Sisko also accuses Leyton of attempting to seize control of Earth and place it under military rule. He says nothing of seizing control of the UFP or Starfleet.

I am curious though. What was said in that episode that makes you think the Admiral was trying to seize control of the UFP and Starfleet?

The only point I am contesting is this "BDZ on four or five planets before the federation will have no ability to wage war even by their own limited standards."

That is the only point I am trying to contest. The UFP will still be able to wage war.
We'll ignore the conversation between Sisko and Leyton when Sisko's in jail as it's only inferred that Leyton will impose martial Law on the Whole Federation as he talks exclusively about taking over Earth. instead we'll go to the showdown in Leytons Office. I'll be using [UFP President] because I don't know how to spell the alien name.

Sisko : Even if you manage to oust [UFP President], you still lose. We all Lose.

Leyton : I can't say I agree with you.

Sisko : Do you think other Federation worlds will sit back are going to sit back and let their President to be replaced with a military dictatorship?

Leyton : Hardly a dictatorship, Ben.

Sisko : Overthrowing a legitimately elected President and giving Starfleet direct control over the Government. It sounds like a dictatorship to me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one to think so.

Leyton was replacing the Government and President of the entire Federation a Military - Starfleet with him in control.

That's what made me think he wanted to seize control of the Federation and Starfleet. He admitted to it.

As to them being able to wage a war after Earth is taken out. How well did they manage immediately after the Breen attack on Earth and specifically Starfleet HQ?

Okay I conceed to that point, but it does seem unlikely that all of Starfleet would support that Admiral....that is just MO and is irrelevant in light of the facts.

After the Breen attack on Earth, which was DS9 "The Changing Face of Evil" Starfleet was still able to defend the Chin'toka system from the Breen/Dominion counter offensive.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-07-04 03:12pm

Thats because the Breen attack on Earth was puny and ineffective. They didn't exactly BDZ San Francisco.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2002-07-04 03:18pm

Tycho wrote:Lets assume that Star Trek outguns either the Rebellion or the Empire in EVERY WAY. 500 YT/sec phasers, lets say, etc.

The GE/Rebellion still will most likely win (the Rebellion less so, though), because of one factor: strategic maneuverability.

They can strike when, where, and how they want. The Star Trek forces will not be able to respond in time. Even if they don't slag the surface within 5 minutes, a huge number of beings will be killed, and all war facilities would be destroyed, and so the planet is rendered all but destroyed.

The planetary defenses would destroy the fleets if they had 500 YT/sec phasers.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-04 03:26pm

No they would not.
In this case, you'd just have to deploy a tactic which is actually mentioned in Mike's tactics section:
-drop in near planet
-fire full powered broadsides for, lets say, 5 seconds
-disappear again into hyperspace before the operators of the defensive weapons will have time to react.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2002-07-04 03:30pm

Cpt_Frank wrote:No they would not.
In this case, you'd just have to deploy a tactic which is actually mentioned in Mike's tactics section:
-drop in near planet
-fire full powered broadsides for, lets say, 5 seconds
-disappear again into hyperspace before the operators of the defensive weapons will have time to react.

5 seconds is enough to wipe out the majority of the rebel fleet. What if the planet is shielded? There were planetary shields in TOS, and a science outpost had a shield in "Gambit."

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-04 09:39pm

Howedar wrote:Thats because the Breen attack on Earth was puny and ineffective. They didn't exactly BDZ San Francisco.

BDZ a City?? Wow, talk about overkill. They must really hate Dharma and Greg.

Tycho · Post by **Tycho** » 2002-07-04 11:24pm

Shadow wrote:
Cpt_Frank wrote:No they would not.
In this case, you'd just have to deploy a tactic which is actually mentioned in Mike's tactics section:
-drop in near planet
-fire full powered broadsides for, lets say, 5 seconds
-disappear again into hyperspace before the operators of the defensive weapons will have time to react.
5 seconds is enough to wipe out the majority of the rebel fleet. What if the planet is shielded? There were planetary shields in TOS, and a science outpost had a shield in "Gambit."

Not all planets are shielded.

Five seconds is NOT enough time for the crews to get to work. The ships jump in, and by the time the crews are targetting and firing, the attacking ships are gone.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-07-04 11:37pm

Rob Wilson wrote:
Howedar wrote:Thats because the Breen attack on Earth was puny and ineffective. They didn't exactly BDZ San Francisco.
BDZ a City?? Wow, talk about overkill. They must really hate Dharma and Greg.

If they'd wanted to do real damage, they would have leveled the place.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-04 11:46pm

Howedar wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote:
Howedar wrote:Thats because the Breen attack on Earth was puny and ineffective. They didn't exactly BDZ San Francisco.
BDZ a City?? Wow, talk about overkill. They must really hate Dharma and Greg.
If they'd wanted to do real damage, they would have leveled the place.

Excuse me one moment *takes Kamakazie Sith's Surgically removed sense of humour and mallets it into Howedar*
There, that should do it.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2002-07-05 11:27pm

Tycho wrote: Not all planets are shielded.

Five seconds is NOT enough time for the crews to get to work. The ships jump in, and by the time the crews are targetting and firing, the attacking ships are gone.

Even a small science outpost had shields. Any colony that isn't develped enough to have have a shield wouldn't make a difference.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-07-05 11:37pm

*LMAO* So some ptiiful outposts shields can stand up to 200 gigaton heavy turbolaser bolts??The kind fired once every two seconds from about 50 cannons? Sides the reason to hit those piddling outposs is to DRAW the fleet out so you can BDZ Earth and Mars which would decapitate the Federation.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2002-07-05 11:45pm

Typhonis 1 wrote:*LMAO* So some ptiiful outposts shields can stand up to 200 gigaton heavy turbolaser bolts??The kind fired once every two seconds from about 50 cannons? Sides the reason to hit those piddling outposs is to DRAW the fleet out so you can BDZ Earth and Mars which would decapitate the Federation.

Did you read what started this part of the discussion?

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-07-05 11:58pm

Sorry my bad

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-06 04:35am

Shadow wrote: 5 seconds is enough to wipe out the majority of the rebel fleet. What if the planet is shielded? There were planetary shields in TOS, and a science outpost had a shield in "Gambit."

Yeah, you surely think that the operators of the defensive phaser arrays sit in their stations staring a the viewscreens, one of their hands constantly on the firing switch. And as soon as something appears, they immediately fire accurately targeted shots at them.

And even if they could fire immediately after the ships appear out of hyperspace, this would make no difference. SW capship shields are so strong they will take several seconds of punishment with phasers or torps effortlessly. (They would even take hours of punishment with these weapons effortlessly, but that's not the point here.)