So...

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-19 06:56pm

SF Commander: 8472 have destroyed earth institute project MAD.

All 8000 or so Fed ships load up the Warheads and go on suicide runs into 8472 land meanwhile all the defense fleets and stations also deploy their uber torps.

That is if earths defense forces dont wipe out he invasion force as it appears in Earth orbit thus 8472 provoke a war with a full power federation.

8472 obviously think there is information missing (which there is) thus rthe great Borg coverup is possible but having a database full of false poety is easy to spot and pointless.

Please tell you understand this concept.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2002-09-19 06:57pm

Moreso people quote Warp Strafing as if it has actually occurred. Most of them could not name one instance in which it has because actually moving at warp firing at a non-warp target has never occurred. Sure they could use the Picard Manuever but the viability of that might be rather low as it is so rarely performed as to be named after an inventor who created not but a decade prior and still to be thought of as unusual when he used it again.

Sure that sounds fanatical warsie-ish but there is no evidence to support warp strafing has ever occurred.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-19 06:58pm

SirNitram: We dont know the level of telepathy obviously it wasnt as good as you think.

Earth does not the Federation amke but it would be a blow but it wouldnt end a war.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-09-19 06:58pm

TheDarkling wrote:Evil Jerk: The database isnt propaganda just doesnt contain the classified nasty details (understand?).

I believe that answers all your points.

Earth isnt the entire federation and the federation could counter attack.

Earth has Starfleet headquarters, the President and Federation Council, Starfleet Academy and their largest shipyards. They'd be crippled.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-09-19 07:01pm

TheDarkling wrote:SirNitram: We dont know the level of telepathy obviously it wasnt as good as you think.

Earth does not the Federation amke but it would be a blow but it wouldnt end a war.

I suggest you watch a few more episodes, particularly DS9, Darkling.

And since we don't know the level of telepathy I'm instantly wrong? Prove it.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-19 07:02pm

Sisko had to convince SF command that Earth was not the key to the Alpha Quadrant during their war with the Dominion--the Wormhole was. That is a strange concern if indeed the Federation could survive without Earth.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-19 07:02pm

TheDarkling wrote:SF Commander: 8472 have destroyed earth institute project MAD.

All 8000 or so Fed ships load up the Warheads and go on suicide runs into 8472 land meanwhile all the defense fleets and stations also deploy their uber torps.

Oh please, the Federation would never do such a thing or be able to even if they had an uberweapon.
Plus, ONE WEEK of actual reconassance would tell 8472 that the Feds could never amass that many ships to do anything before they all die.

That is if earths defense forces dont wipe out he invasion force as it appears in Earth orbit thus 8472 provoke a war with a full power federation.

*scout goes to UFP space and recons the general area*
Hey! They have no damn ships defending their home planet! (pre "Endgame")
*invasion begins*

8472 obviously think there is information missing (which there is) thus rthe great Borg coverup is possible but having a database full of false poety is easy to spot and pointless.

Please tell you understand this concept.

It doesn't matter if it was actually fake, what matters is what THEY think.
How would it be easy to spot anyway? What the hell do 8472 know what it's really supposed to be like? Could they tell fake Vulcan poetry from real Vulcan poetry?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-19 07:07pm

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Why would ANYONE be stupid enough to think they would fake poety, WHY???????? you explain it since you think someone would go to all the effort.

The entire point of the mission was recon (also at that time Earth had an entire fleet protecting it).

They didnt know that Voyager was the only ship in the DQ ergo they didnt have good telepathy - proof enough?

The feds could still strike after Earth was gone - they might not win a normla war against the Romualns etc but they could attack the 8472 realm.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-19 07:14pm

TheDarkling wrote:ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Why would ANYONE be stupid enough to think they would fake poety, WHY???????? you explain it since you think someone would go to all the effort.

You brought up the poetry, not me.
The poetry wouldn't have a bearing on anything, anyway, but a lot of other stuff would, if the database didn't offer reliable info on the Borg, how could they trust the info on how Starfleet officers act, on how to appear to blend in?

The entire point of the mission was recon

No, recon is going there and checking it out for real, not training spies in a simulation you don't trust anyway.

(also at that time Earth had an entire fleet protecting it).

Which is why the Breen were able to bomb major Earth cities later on..

They didnt know that Voyager was the only ship in the DQ ergo they didnt have good telepathy - proof enough?

Or they were just fools.

The feds could still strike after Earth was gone - they might not win a normla war against the Romualns etc but they could attack the 8472 realm.

Who would direct them? Where would they go? Would they have the motivation?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-19 07:18pm

Some Admirals would survive they dont all live on earth your know.

All the everyday stuff WOULD HAVE TO BE REAL because people looking at the database wuld know if it was true or not but the dirty government secerets wouldnt be available for public consumption or do you think the fact that the Omega directive isnt available to normla Joe that his version of the 1812 Overture is incorrect?

The breen fleet got wiped out - please pay attention.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-09-19 07:21pm

TheDarkling wrote:Some Admirals would survive they dont all live on earth your know.

All the everyday stuff WOULD HAVE TO BE REAL because people looking at the database wuld know if it was true or not but the dirty government secerets wouldnt be available for public consumption or do you think the fact that the Omega directive isnt available to normla Joe that his version of the 1812 Overture is incorrect?

The breen fleet got wiped out - please pay attention.

YOU pay attention, Darkling. The Breen were wiped out on their way out, not on the way in.

Your incessant claims are getting ridiculous. If the Species didn't believe the data to be correct, then their training holo is worthless.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-19 07:37pm

The database told them how the federation is on a day today basis just not the classified stuff - Hello is this thing on??.

The Feds have defenses for earth and shields (if not planetary ones) and the breen had cloaks and thus got close to earth.

Sisko: Starfleet was able to destroy most of the breen attack force but by then most of the damage was done.

Sounds to me like the attack wazs going on in earth orbit but thats down to interpretation I suppose.

We still know that the feds have defenses on earth which may include torps.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-09-19 07:51pm

Cite your source for this sort of classification, Darkling.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-09-19 07:53pm

Warp strafing is superluminal RELATIVE speed. When do we have confirmed examples of this?

We have lots of examples of "ships firing at warp" as the Trekkies call it, but that's a shell game: they use B to prove the existence of A, even though A is not equal to B.

When two ships are BOTH travelling at warp and they fire on one another, the relative speeds are usually very low. Name one incident in which a ship actually zoomed over a slow-moving target so that their RELATIVE velocity was greater than c and "strafed" it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-09-19 07:55pm

TheDarkling wrote:As for 8472 not having enough bottle - thats just not true, they got a new unknown player with a super weapon on the field and hey gathered nifo on them (thats the correct action).

Not this again. Since when is "super weapon" a weapon that can destroy a one-man fighter with a direct hit or close-proximity blast?

Do you realize that by your goofball definition, a Sidewinder missile is a "superweapon"? When the rest of us say "superweapon", we think of something a lot more grandiose.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-19 07:59pm

The weapon was alot more powerfull than what the Borg have let me put it that way then.
We see it in TOS in fact the entire point of the episode is to get the Ent-Nil stuck in impulse so the klingons can warp strafe.

SirNitram: I dont understand what you mean.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-09-19 08:06pm

TheDarkling wrote:The weapon was alot more powerfull than what the Borg have let me put it that way then.

Heh ... that doesn't say much. The fact remains that S8472 does not have the stomach for casualties. They had their foot on the enemy's throat, and they had telepathic intel of a unique weapon on Voyager. They took a handful of casualties but they had dozens of ships converging on the area. They had excellent force concentration and tactical superiority in spite of the new weapon (Voyager can only score direct hits and/or close proximity blasts on so many attackers, after all). They had ONE and ONLY ONE chance to destroy the only weapon that could give the Borg a glimmer of a chance, and they ran. Pussies.

(Re: warp-strafing) We see it in TOS in fact the entire point of the episode is to get the Ent-Nil stuck in impulse so the klingons can warp strafe.

I've seen that episode. Sulu was calling out the ranges as the Klingon ship approached, and from the numbers he was calling out and the rate at which he called them, it was travelling at a miniscule fraction of c. It obviously used warp to get away after each SUBLIGHT strafing run.

Come on, Darkling. This one has been done to death on the newsgroups years ago. If you keep it up, Lord Poe will get pissed off and produce an audio clip.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-09-19 08:08pm

TheDarkling wrote:The weapon was alot more powerfull than what the Borg have let me put it that way then.
We see it in TOS in fact the entire point of the episode is to get the Ent-Nil stuck in impulse so the klingons can warp strafe.

SirNitram: I dont understand what you mean.

You seem to be under the bizarre conclusion that classified data is an on/off switch, for one. Either data is availiable to all or only the Captain can access it, which is nonsense.

Second, we've seen repeatedly that many people can access so-called classified data(For just one example, Odo hacks SF command in 'Paradise Lost'. He also says he learned it all from QUARK.

Finally, this is STILL no excuse for not hunting down the Voyager. If nothing else, it's one less installation/vehicle that can hit them. Only a true coward will withdraw at the prospect of casualties to take out the one confirmed thing that can dish out casualties.

You just don't seem to get it. A competent, non-paranoid entity will not worry about additional launch capabilities when faced with the possibility of taking out the only confirmed one. The only one hinted at, even.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2002-09-19 08:13pm

The basis for the claim for warp strafing comes from the TOS episode "Elaan Of Troyus". Supposedly, the Klingons were firing upon a crippled Enterprise while running at warp drive in their own cruiser.

Unfortunately, the actual visual representation does not support the contention, even with the episode dialogue taken into account. The attack passes made by the Klingon ship on the Enterprise are being clearly executed at low sublight velocities. A ship flashing by a virtually stationary target at FTL velocities would never be able to fix a target sighting because the target would already be long past the ship. Such is clearly not the case in the scene in question.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-19 08:15pm

No you dont get it - they didnt know that Voyager was the only ship with the weapon - they didnt know this ok?, OK now just remember that and their actions become understandbale.

The Borg were no threat - they said as much, the Borg were of no consequence - they didnt care what the borg got upto, clear?

Yes I have seen the episode and smoetimes they are at warp and sometimes not, I actually think theres a website on it somewhere, besides I was talking about Torps unless you intend to say that ships at warp can pass though normal matter? unless its just torps for some reason?, whats going on here?

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-19 08:29pm

No you dont get it - they didnt know that Voyager was the only ship with the weapon - they didnt know this ok?, OK now just remember that and their actions become understandbale.

Stop saying that, it's not understandable.
For one thing, any idiot would see that Voyager was at least the FIRST to get this weapon.
I mean, they don't use it before, then suddenly out of the blue they start firing a hybrid Borg weapon on them after getting buddy buddy with the Borg, it doesn't take a genius to work this one out.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-09-19 08:33pm

TheDarkling wrote:No you dont get it - they didnt know that Voyager was the only ship with the weapon - they didnt know this ok?, OK now just remember that and their actions become understandbale.

Prove. It.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-19 08:39pm

And they havent given the plans to SF command or the Borg?

All 8472 knew was that an alien ship had appeared and then attacked them with a new weapon that would turn the tables on them.
The alien in charge of the ship said she was not going to attack them if they retreated (they pull back and she didnt but this alone isnt enough to prove the Aliens are trustworthy - they maybe preparing for an attack).

You also state that they should figure it out since Voyager didnt use the weapon before - except there is no way to know how wide spread the tech is and that Voyage had not used it the first time (it was in a borg tractor beam and they didnt really have time to respond) and the second instance the Borg rammed the ship (Voyager had taken damage maybe the weapons were offline).

As much as you want to you cant prove 8472 are cowards of tactically stupid (at least by ST standards).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-09-19 08:39pm

TheDarkling wrote:No you dont get it - they didnt know that Voyager was the only ship with the weapon - they didnt know this ok?, OK now just remember that and their actions become understandbale.

Wrong. They had telepathic intel. They were watching Voyager THROUGH KES. She KNEW this, and warned Janeway about it. THEY KNEW ABOUT THE WEAPON, and THEY KNEW HOW IMPORTANT VOYAGER WAS.

The Borg were no threat - they said as much, the Borg were of no consequence - they didnt care what the borg got upto, clear?

What does that have to do with what I said? The point was that the Borg would BECOME more of a threat if they got their hands on this weapon, and these pussies let their only chance to destroy it slip away because of their abject cowardice.

Yes I have seen the episode and smoetimes they are at warp and sometimes not, I actually think theres a website on it somewhere, besides I was talking about Torps unless you intend to say that ships at warp can pass though normal matter? unless its just torps for some reason?, whats going on here?

What the fuck are you talking about? In the episode in question, Sulu calls out the ranges as the ship approaches. It is NOT travelling at superluminal speed. Deal with it.

As for your weird stream-of-consciousness babble at the end, I'm not sure what drugs you're on. Who said anything about objects passing through matter? We were talking about warp-strafing, and the fact that we've never seen an example of it.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-19 08:41pm

Prove they did? you are asking me to prove a negative.

They didnt know how many ships the Federation had the DQ and they didnt know the Federatiobn knew nothing about them this proves they knew very little in truth (they also thought the Federation was a threat to them implying that they thought the Feds had the weapon).

You got evidence to prove they knew? since theres some pointing to the fact that they didnt.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

So...

This again?