Death before dishonour

[Patrick Degan]

Some species in Star Trek would fight to the last man. These include the Dominion, and the Borg.

And your evidence for this assertion is...? Oh, that's right, none. Or did you conveniently forget that the Dominion surrendered to the Federation?. The Borg might fight. Or they might attempt to seek accomodation if it means saving their Collective. And if the Borg do fight to the last drone, so what?

The Maquis were widely sympathized with througought Starfleet and the Federation. It was never said what happened in the DMZ.

In a word, bullshit. Starfleet hunted them down. Benjamin Sisko poisoned a planet simply to force a Starfleet traitor to surrender and capture his cel group. The rest of the Federation remained mute or the opinion of their citizenry had zero influence on Starfleet policy. And we damn well know what happened in the DMZ. The Dominion crushed out what was left of the Maquis resistance during the war.

The Betazoids are a peaceful telepathic people.

Federation citizens who decided that discretion was the better part of valour and that it was better to live with the Jem'Hadar than see their planet reduced to ashes. I would remind you that the Vulcans are also a "peaceful telepathic people". Will you assert that they would not reach a similar decision if conquest was inevitable and the logic of the situation offered no other viable alternative? And how do you imagine that this affects your central assertion that the Federation would be willing to die to the last child and ox rather than live under the Empire?

A planet of another more aggresive people would have fought to the last man as thye maquis did.

The Klingons rolled over for the Federation when their planet was poisoned in Star Trek VI, despite one of Azetbur's generals urging her to "attack or be slaves in their world". They are certainly more aggressive than the Betazeds. But they rolled over for the Federation anyway because they wanted to live.

As for the Maquis, again, they were a band of fanatics. You'll always find fanatics willing to fight on long past any point of rational expectation of success and in every instance in history, they were doomed and they had zero effect on the eventual outcome.

[Shadow]

[quote="Patrick Degan"]And your evidence for this assertion is...? Oh, that's right, none. Or did you conveniently forget that the Dominion surrendered to the Federation?. The Borg might fight. Or they might attempt to seek accomodation if it means saving their Collective. And if the Borg do fight to the last drone, so what?

The Dominion would not have surrendered without the cure.

In a word, bullshit. Starfleet hunted them down. Benjamin Sisko poisoned a planet simply to force a Starfleet traitor to surrender and capture his cel group. The rest of the Federation remained mute or the opinion of their citizenry had zero influence on Starfleet policy. And we damn well know what happened in the DMZ. The Dominion crushed out what was left of the Maquis resistance during the war.

Maquis were hunted down, but many from Starfleet joined them. The others in the DMZ may have been destroyed too. I find this likely because they were hated before the Maquis was formed.

Federation citizens who decided that discretion was the better part of valour and that it was better to live with the Jem'Hadar than see their planet reduced to ashes. I would remind you that the Vulcans are also a "peaceful telepathic people". Will you assert that they would not reach a similar decision if conquest was inevitable and the logic of the situation offered no other viable alternative? And how do you imagine that this affects your central assertion that the Federation would be willing to die to the last child and ox rather than live under the Empire?

The Vulcans would also probably surrender. However, these are only 2 out of 150. Hardly above .01 percent.

The Klingons rolled over for the Federation when their planet was poisoned in Star Trek VI, despite one of Azetbur's generals urging her to "attack or be slaves in their world". They are certainly more aggressive than the Betazeds. But they rolled over for the Federation anyway because they wanted to live.

The Klingons of TNG were obsessed with honor, and dying in battle so they could reach Sto'vo'kor. They would have fought to the last man.

As for the Maquis, again, they were a band of fanatics. You'll always find fanatics willing to fight on long past any point of rational expectation of success and in every instance in history, they were doomed and they had zero effect on the eventual outcome.

Many joined them, so many Federation citizens are willing to fight against hopeless odds.

[Patrick Degan]

The Dominion would not have surrendered without the cure.

Immaterial. They surrendered because it was their only chance to live. Thank you for proving my point.

Maquis were hunted down, but many from Starfleet joined them.

Enough to split the ranks? Touch off fleet mutinies? Spark a general revolution? Sorry, but a few deserters from the ranks hardly constitutes "many"

The others in the DMZ may have been destroyed too. I find this likely because they were hated before the Maquis was formed.

The Maquis remnant were finished off by the Dominion, according to ex-Cmdr. Eddington. The remaining citizens of the DMZ worlds were within the Dominion zone of occupation. Anybody not willing to die for the Cause would have been very pragmatic about surrender.

The Vulcans would also probably surrender. However, these are only 2 out of 150. Hardly above .01 percent.

Which goes nowhere toward proving your argument, I'm afraid. Rationality dictates that surrender in the face of utterly hopeless odds is desirable to annihilation for a lost cause. Earth citizens passively acquiesced to Adm. Layton's brief military dictatorship. Kindly cite your evidence that the Federationists would die to the last child and ox for the sacred ideal of the Federation.

The Klingons of TNG were obsessed with honor, and dying in battle so they could reach Sto'vo'kor. They would have fought to the last man.

And yet we saw Klingons willing to give up in the face of the Jem'Hadar during the war because they saw the fight against an enemy which did not value honour and glory but came on relentlessly as hopeless. Ninety years after the Khitomer Accords, the Klingons are still willing to live with the alliance with the Federation despite their fundamentalist revolution at some point between the two time periods.

In the real world, many Taliban fighters were obsessed with Allah and dying in battle to reach Paradise and dally with their own stable of 72 virgins. Most however either surrendered or got the hell out of Kabul rather than get bombs dropped on them. And at the end of World War II, the honour-and-death-obsessed Japanese decided it was better to surrender than to die in a hail of atomic bombs. I hate to have to tell you this, but even fanatics reach a point (some of them anyway) where they decide that discretion is the better part of valour.

Many joined them (the Maquis), so many Federation citizens are willing to fight against hopeless odds.

Kindly quantify "many". Billions? Millions? Thousands? Several hundred? Did the Maquis cause become so celebrated throughout the Federation that it threatened a civil war? Did Federation citizens join the Maquis cause by the millions? Was there mass-scale politial agitation for the Maquis cause within the UFP? Or is it that their pathetic resistance went largely unnoticed, that they were hunted down by a loyal Federation Starfleet and that their remaining cel groups were subsequently hunted down and destroyed by the Dominion? In the overall scheme of things, the Maquis were little more than an annoyance.

[weemadando]

Naw, space vikings would have been cool. Vikings actually had a pretty complex culture. It wasn't just raping and pillaging all the time. Not like the insane, suicidal, and one-dimensional Klingons we all know today. Also, you would think that if they were that dumb about throwing their lives away, they would have become extinct because of their stupidity. By the way, why the heck do Klingons have the bumpy foreheads in Enterprise when they didn't have them in TOS, and then they have them in later series? I mean c'mon even B&B should have caught that one. Unless I'm underestimating the power of their ignorance.

The nearest things to Vikings in ST (that I've seen) would be the Ferengi. They have a well-established trade network and enjyo "commandeering" resources for sale. Unfortunately, unlike the Vikings they really suck at what they do.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

I would remind you that the citizens of democratic Czechoslovakia, Austria, Poland, Norway, Denmark, Holland, and France largely chose to surrender when the Nazis rolled over them. They certainly chose dishonour and abuse by an oppressive government over death for a principle. The brutal reality is that the willingness to fight and die for the Sacred Cause is proportional to its chances to actually prevail on the battlefield.

The Federation is more willing to fight oppresors than these nations. An example wouold be the Maquis. They fought until there were almost none left. This would be likely to happen throughout the Federation if the the empire invaded.

Bullshit. We never hear of "fighting to the death" DS9 didn't. Captured planets didn't.

And the Maquis were wiped out so fast they couldn't hide.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Those nations surrendered because they had no fucking chance to win and their people knew it. The first rule of survival is pragmatism.

Some species in Star Trek would fight to the last man. These include the Dominion, and the Borg.

How in the Dominion? The Jem'Hadar? They were breed too. The Vorta? One betrayed his men to live. The Founders? Like Hell.

The Maquis were fanatics and eventually crushed out of existence —by the Federation and the Dominion. Most of the colonists in the DMZ acquiesced themselves to the Treaty, however, or surrendered when the Dominion overran their spaces.

The Maquis were widely sympathized with througought Starfleet and the Federation. It was never said what happened in the DMZ.

Widely? Prove it.

Ah, just like the Betazeds did during the Dominion War, I suppose. Oh, that's right, they surrendered to the Dominion when they overran their planet.

The betazoids are a peaceful telepathic people. A planet of another more aggresive people would have fought to the ast man as thye maquis did.

Prove the existance of these "aggressive people"

And the Maquis WERE WIPED OUT BEFORE THEY COULD DO ANYTHING

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

The Dominion would not have surrendered without the cure.

Because the rulers the Founders WERE DEAD ANYWAYS!

Maquis were hunted down, but many from Starfleet joined them. The others in the DMZ may have been destroyed too. I find this likely because they were hated before the Maquis was formed.

Many? How many? Hundreds? Thousands? Millions?

The Vulcans would also probably surrender. However, these are only 2 out of 150. Hardly above .01 percent.

1. WTF are you smoking? 2/150 isn't 0.1 percent.
2. Prove the existance of these other reaces that would fight.

The Klingons of TNG were obsessed with honor, and dying in battle so they could reach Sto'vo'kor. They would have fought to the last man.

Kahless's quote in "Ways of A Warrior" disagrees.

Many joined them, so many Federation citizens are willing to fight against hopeless odds.

Stop using words like many. GIVE NUMBERS

[Darth Wong]

Shadow, you must have such a wealth of life experience to believe in this childish "fight to the last man" shit.

The Dominion would not have surrendered without the cure.

As Patrick points out, this proves our point. They surrendered in order to survive.

Maquis were hunted down, but many from Starfleet joined them. The others in the DMZ may have been destroyed too. I find this likely because they were hated before the Maquis was formed.

When Eddington went to get his wife with Sisko, she and the other Maquis were prisoners of the Jem'Hadar. Remember how they were locked in a chamber with JH guards outside? Do you know how you get to be a prisoner? By SURRENDERING to save your life.

The Vulcans would also probably surrender. However, these are only 2 out of 150. Hardly above .01 percent.

1.3% (not 0.01%) is still better than 0%, which is precisely the number of Fed species that you've proven to be capable of fighting to the last man. Therefore, it is still a far better sample. Moreover, it is the inevitable outcome of rational thought; fighting to the last man for honour or principle is stupid. What possible "principle" could outweigh the survival of your entire species?

The Klingons of TNG were obsessed with honor, and dying in battle so they could reach Sto'vo'kor. They would have fought to the last man.

They surrendered in ST6. They retreated from DS9 in "Way of the Warrior". In the TNG episode "The Emissary", they backed down in the face of superior weapons. [EDIT: I forgot to mention the TNG episode where they found Klingon prisoners in a Romulan POW camp]. Sorry, you lose.

[Admiral Griffith]

This is aimed at shadow:

[RedImperator]

Why in the world would anyone imagine a species would prefer extinction to subjugation? If you're alive, there's a chance you could re-gain your freedom later. Death is permanent. Think about extinction for a moment: everything your species has ever done, ever accomplished, the lives of everyone who's ever come before you, all wasted because the ONLY goal a species has, on the most basic level, is to stay alive. Maybe you fight to the last man against the Borg--or maybe you delude yourself into thinking being a drone won't be so bad, or you'll be able to resist from within. And you fight to the death against an enemy who wants to wipe you out--or maybe not, and maybe you delude yourself they really won't kill you, that you'll have a chance in the death camps, that work really can make you free. But who in their right minds thinks any species would fight to their death for an abstraction like freedom or honor? Shadow, you're deluding yourself if you think any ST race is going to fight the Empire to the death, even if they expect to be treated miserably by the Empire afterward.

[Crown]

Sometimes I wish that the enite Klingon race would put their money where their mouth is, it would just be too funny!

[Setesh]

Against the Borg or 8472, you don't really have a choice, die fighting or die on your knees. But the Empire doesn't exterminate, assimulate, or exsanguinate. They conquer then rule. but you'll still be alive tomarrow.

[Master of Ossus]

Incidentally, combat against the Empire in terms of what happens to losers is most analogous to combat with the Roman Empire just after they stopped guaranteeing conquered peoples citizenship. If you continue to fight, they will destroy your planet (or city), but if you surrender, they will allow you to remain alive. They may even teach you new things and introduce to you their way of life. Look at what happened after the Romans conquered almost all of England: most of the Celts surrendered, and were allowed to remain alive. Their lifestyle actually improved due to their Romanization, as they moved from being a stone-age society to an early iron-age society in just a few generations. They also dramatically improved the English way of life, introducing a new agricultural existence. This is almost certainly the kind of thing that would occur once the Empire conquered some ST races. Clearly most people would rather live under the Empire than die to it. And some people might even want to live in the Empire more than in the UFP!

[Master of Ossus]

I only know of one person who would actually choose death over the "dishonor" of losing and enjoying a better lifestyle. Let's just call him: "R. Scott Anderson." No, no, no. That's much too obvious. How about, "Robert Scott A.?"

[tharkûn]

Easier said than done. Even Osama had to hide the true nature of the mission from some of his terrorists. More Japanese kamikaze pilots died trying to ditch their planes in the ocean or turn around and land than ramming into American ships (that's why they didn't teach them how to land). Taliban surrendered in droves when the Americans started kicking their asses. The vast majority of people will simply NOT do what you suggest. Look beneath the surface, beneath the stereotypes and propaganda. Humans are still humans.
I understand that the vast majority are not suicidal fools (though you can artificially inflate these numbers through misinformation). However you always have the minority fringe even if we are talking about .001% who are willing to go on suicide missions that is still 100,000 strong if the society is in the 10 billions. We have seen plenty of suicidal nutcases in ST, the Section 31 guy, Worf (i.e. when he's in the Dominion POW camp), anyone willing to serve on a the USS Timebomb err Eenterprise - D, etc. There have been about 100 suicide bombers in Palestine ... out of a population of 3 million. So we have about .003% of the population who are willing to be suicidal nutjobs. Granted this is in a heavily indoctrinated area, but somehow the Israelis strike me as much more benevolent than the Emporer.

Planets loyal to the Empire were well-treated. Why run, just because the Emperor is smashing rebel forces? Since you're not part of the rebellion, it's not your concern, is it? People tend to think in terms of local, provincial interests. Are all of your social thoughts this superficial?

Yes planet's are so well treated that we have criminals running their own damn planets. People are so well treated that multi-billion populaces are killed for the actions of a few. The is a bustling slave trade whole planets of gulags. And of course you have the nutcase upper echelon of the Empire who kill people for no reason. Sorry but that sounds too much like Stalin for my liking. I'd prefer to get the hell out than take my chances. Just like if was white under Mugabe ... I'd be on the first plane I could take out of Harare.

Who have been ruling for millenia. It's just how things are done in that part of space and the locals are used to it by now.
Which makes me wonder why people don't leave. Smart people start leaving as expeditiously as they can when you end up with murderous criminals in charge. There is a reason why so many people tried to get the hell out of places like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, etc. If its been going on for *millenia* then only the desperate, despicable, and dumb should be left.

And when those atrocities and weapons came to light, people threw their support behind the rebellion, some supported it, and some cowered in fear like Wong said.
Yet we see no massive refugee movements in SW. Nobody running the hell away from planets when things like the Sunbuster plot (or whatever the Corellia super_weapon_of_the_week was) crop up. Nobody getting out of dodge when yet another superlaser is built.
untenable ... the smart ones get their asses running.

1) Suppossedly you cannot leave the SW galaxy. However it appears you might be able to circumvent that by traveling in RS instead of Hyperspace to exit and then high tailing it. That is just a theory though, so far only the Vong have crossed the galactic threshold.

Not aware of this. I was assuming a normal galaxy.

2) Most peopke cannot buy a ship, much less a ship capable of supporting life that long to cross between galaxies, map the new galaxy, find a habitable world, and then rebuild a society there with all the things you are used to from scratch.


Crossing between galaxies ain't that hard, the ratio of galaxy diamtre to distance between galaxies is quite low (in comparison to say diamtre of a solar system to distance between them). If you can cross your galaxy in days you can get to the next one in months (low years at the outside) Once you get there ... look for the populated sectors. Its not hard to pick out stars, find somebody to trade with for a map and to then to find a society to join.

3) Some people did flee, but they went to small colonies in the OR where the Empire had no real reach yet, not other galaxies.

How many? Give me numbers.

[Ender]

Who have been ruling for millenia. It's just how things are done in that part of space and the locals are used to it by now.
Which makes me wonder why people don't leave. Smart people start leaving as expeditiously as they can when you end up with murderous criminals in charge. There is a reason why so many people tried to get the hell out of places like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, etc. If its been going on for *millenia* then only the desperate, despicable, and dumb should be left.

And when those atrocities and weapons came to light, people threw their support behind the rebellion, some supported it, and some cowered in fear like Wong said.
Yet we see no massive refugee movements in SW. Nobody running the hell away from planets when things like the Sunbuster plot (or whatever the Corellia super_weapon_of_the_week was) crop up. Nobody getting out of dodge when yet another superlaser is built.
untenable ... the smart ones get their asses running.

You are wrong on all counts. We see the refugee movement in AOTC and the NJO. The planets threatened were being evacuated in the Centerpoint plot, and Cardia cleared out as best it could. And alot of Alderaan survivors left the core words after the Thrawn campaign telling Leia "We didn't survive the destruction of one planet just to move to a more tempting target" according to SotP

1) Suppossedly you cannot leave the SW galaxy. However it appears you might be able to circumvent that by traveling in RS instead of Hyperspace to exit and then high tailing it. That is just a theory though, so far only the Vong have crossed the galactic threshold.

Not aware of this. I was assuming a normal galaxy.

Well, you are now

2) Most peopke cannot buy a ship, much less a ship capable of supporting life that long to cross between galaxies, map the new galaxy, find a habitable world, and then rebuild a society there with all the things you are used to from scratch.


Crossing between galaxies ain't that hard, the ratio of galaxy diamtre to distance between galaxies is quite low (in comparison to say diamtre of a solar system to distance between them). If you can cross your galaxy in days you can get to the next one in months (low years at the outside) Once you get there ... look for the populated sectors. Its not hard to pick out stars, find somebody to trade with for a map and to then to find a society to join.

I think you are grossly oversimplifying the problem.

3) Some people did flee, but they went to small colonies in the OR where the Empire had no real reach yet, not other galaxies.

How many? Give me numbers.

A bunch of nobles from the core left when Palpatine took power. You'd have to ask someone with Secrets of the Sistar Run for more details

[Patrick Degan]

Easier said than done. Even Osama had to hide the true nature of the mission from some of his terrorists. More Japanese kamikaze pilots died trying to ditch their planes in the ocean or turn around and land than ramming into American ships (that's why they didn't teach them how to land). Taliban surrendered in droves when the Americans started kicking their asses. The vast majority of people will simply NOT do what you suggest. Look beneath the surface, beneath the stereotypes and propaganda. Humans are still humans.

I understand that the vast majority are not suicidal fools (though you can artificially inflate these numbers through misinformation). However you always have the minority fringe even if we are talking about .001% who are willing to go on suicide missions that is still 100,000 strong if the society is in the 10 billions. We have seen plenty of suicidal nutcases in ST, the Section 31 guy, Worf (i.e. when he's in the Dominion POW camp), anyone willing to serve on a the USS Timebomb err Eenterprise - D, etc. There have been about 100 suicide bombers in Palestine ... out of a population of 3 million. So we have about .003% of the population who are willing to be suicidal nutjobs.

And a vast majority who are not.

Planets loyal to the Empire were well-treated. Why run, just because the Emperor is smashing rebel forces? Since you're not part of the rebellion, it's not your concern, is it? People tend to think in terms of local, provincial interests. Are all of your social thoughts this superficial?

Yes planet's are so well treated that we have criminals running their own damn planets.

We don't even quite see that in The Phantom Menace and certainly do not see that in the first three movies of the series. Jabba the Hut was driven underground by the Empire.

People are so well treated that multi-billion populaces are killed for the actions of a few.

Acts of war. Tragic, but they happen. And in the context of a galactic population of hundreds of trillions, a scale of death and destruction comparable to Dresden, Tokyo, Hamburg, Coventry, and Hiroshima in comparison with the rest of the world.

The is a bustling slave trade

There is an aboveground slave trade under the Republic. Under the Empire, the slave trade was definitely driven underground. And in case you haven't been paying attention, there is an underground slave trade in our own contemporary world even with the force of international law arrayed against it. Crime happens.

whole planets of gulags

Um, I hate to have to point this out, but none of the Star Wars movies has shown us one single dedicated prison planet. Not one. Whereas in Star Trek, we've seen Federation penal colonies (Tantalus, "Dagger Of The Mind"; Elba II "Whom Gods Destroy") and the whole of New Zealand converted to a "rehabilitation colony" (Voyager), Klingon slave-labour gulags (Rura Penthe, The Undiscovered Country), Dominion and Cardassian prison planets (Deep Space Nine)

And of course you have the nutcase upper echelon of the Empire who kill people for no reason.

Darth Vader executed two Imperial officers for incompetence in command and one Rebel officer for refusing to give information. He did not kill indiscriminately, and he did not "demote" Admiral Piett after the escape of the Millenium Falcon from Bespin at the end of The Empire Strikes Back.

Sorry but that sounds too much like Stalin for my liking.

In a word, bullshit. Even the "good guys" will order atrocities if it serves a military purpose. It wasn't the Nazis, after all, who burned Dresden, and it wasn't Stalin who nuked Hiroshima.

I'd prefer to get the hell out than take my chances. Just like if was white under Mugabe ... I'd be on the first plane I could take out of Harare.

But you wouldn't be fighting to the death or your family's death against Mugabe. Or the Empire either, presumably. And talk of "being on the first plane outta there" is nice if you've got a place to run to and the means to run. Nice if you can manage it. Most people can't. So they just shrug their shoulders and get on with their lives as best they can.

That's called "survival".

[tharkûn]

You are wrong on all counts. We see the refugee movement in AOTC and the NJO. The planets threatened were being evacuated in the Centerpoint plot, and Cardia cleared out as best it could. And alot of Alderaan survivors left the core words after the Thrawn campaign telling Leia "We didn't survive the destruction of one planet just to move to a more tempting target" according to SotP


Quantify ... how many is "lots".

I think you are grossly oversimplifying the problem.
Not really. There is nothing between galaxies. Once you get to another galaxy (and they are not that far apart normally) you map out the stars ... see if anyone is transmitting their location (or the location of some type of guidance bouy or whatever) and head for a nice looking one.

A bunch of nobles from the core left when Palpatine took power. You'd have to ask someone with Secrets of the Sistar Run for more details
Well can anybody give me some numbers?

And a vast majority who are not.
Thank you, Captain Obvious. When I say .003% are, then it is obvious to anyone with brains that 99.997% are not (you now that pesky thing called Aristelian logic). Now how anyone would think that 99.997 is not "a vast majority" is beyond me, but thank you for clarifying for the braindead.

We don't even quite see that in The Phantom Menace and certainly do not see that in the first three movies of the series. Jabba the Hut was driven underground by the Empire.
Underground, right. Just like Prine Xizor was "underground". I mean its not likely he's holding an open air dinner party while holding summury exectutions ... oh wait he is my bad.

Acts of war. Tragic, but they happen. And in the context of a galactic population of hundreds of trillions, a scale of death and destruction comparable to Dresden, Tokyo, Hamburg, Coventry, and Hiroshima in comparison with the rest of the world.
Right and when did the Empire declare war on Alderaan? Oh wait it didn't. Dresden, Tokyo, etc. were against opponents openly at war. Not a premptive attack without a declaration of war.

There is an aboveground slave trade under the Republic. Under the Empire, the slave trade was definitely driven underground. And in case you haven't been paying attention, there is an underground slave trade in our own contemporary world even with the force of international law arrayed against it. Crime happens.
Yes the people who run it don't happen to come to dinner with the Prime Minister do they? Whereas the Emporer does eat with Prince Xisor of the Black Sun (which "had involvement in every known type of illegal activity"). If I was in Sudan (capital of the slave trade today) I'd be getting the hell out also. Normally when you start seeing slavery and slavers ... its time to get the frik out.

Um, I hate to have to point this out, but none of the Star Wars movies has shown us one single dedicated prison planet.
Kessel , Star's End

Whereas in Star Trek, we've seen Federation penal colonies (Tantalus, "Dagger Of The Mind"; Elba II "Whom Gods Destroy") and the whole of New Zealand converted to a "rehabilitation colony" (Voyager), Klingon slave-labour gulags (Rura Penthe, The Undiscovered Country), Dominion and Cardassian prison planets (Deep Space Nine)

First off has the whole of New Zealand been converted to a penal colony? Every reference I recall or find on the net says its *in* New Zealand and not *is* a New Zealand.

Next up there is a categoric difference between a penal colony and a gulag. Star Trek penal colonies may not be the lovefest the rest of the feddie empire is ... but they aren't murderous death traps like oh say Kessel.

Darth Vader executed two Imperial officers for incompetence in command and one Rebel officer for refusing to give information. He did not kill indiscriminately, and he did not "demote" Admiral Piett after the escape of the Millenium Falcon from Bespin at the end of The Empire Strikes Back.
I see and what "incompotence" did Needa exhibit?

Further we know they are murderous suns of bitches based on their actions in the prequel. The real kicker is Palpy has his gardner killed when Prince Xizor hires him away.

In a word, bullshit. Even the "good guys" will order atrocities if it serves a military purpose. It wasn't the Nazis, after all, who burned Dresden, and it wasn't Stalin who nuked Hiroshima.
And what purpose did blowing up Alderaan serve? PR? When Dresden went up in flames German industrial output dropped significantly. Nukes were used on Hiroshima only after the military rulers refused to end the war (minorly relevant note, the Japanese military rulers wanted to continue the war even after the allies beat down Germany and after they were nuked twice ... talk about suicidal fools).

But you wouldn't be fighting to the death or your family's death against Mugabe. Or the Empire either, presumably. And talk of "being on the first plane outta there" is nice if you've got a place to run to and the means to run. Nice if you can manage it. Most people can't. So they just shrug their shoulders and get on with their lives as best they can.
I never said I would be. I have long maintained that my preferred course of action would be to RUN AWAY if I ran the federation against the empire. Ruling political elite just don't have the good of historical track record under occupation. Against the emporer who thinks nothing of throwing away imperial troops to prolong the drama for Luke ... I'll take my chances running.

If I was going to fight the empire I'd do it *underground*. My first order as the C&C of starfleet facing Imperial invasion would be to disperse and hide to fight guerilla warfare. Everyone who wants to protect themselves would be allowed to go home and knuckle under. The use of suicide forces would be done by the ruling bastard who wants to fight the empire but can't risk his position (as yes *many* of that type exist in the world today).

In a war of attrition or maneuvers the federation is dead. They would make halfway decent guerillas/terrorists after the stupid ones are culled (presuming somebody actually survives the culling process).

[Patrick Degan]

And a vast majority who are not.

Thank you, Captain Obvious. When I say .003% are, then it is obvious to anyone with brains that 99.997% are not (you now that pesky thing called Aristelian logic). Now how anyone would think that 99.997 is not "a vast majority" is beyond me, but thank you for clarifying for the braindead.

Then what was your point? It certainly does not support the whole "death before dishonour" theory.

We don't even quite see that in The Phantom Menace and certainly do not see that in the first three movies of the series. Jabba the Hut was driven underground by the Empire.

Underground, right. Just like Prine Xizor was "underground". I mean its not likely he's holding an open air dinner party while holding summury exectutions ... oh wait he is my bad.

And your point is...? "Underground" means below the pale of law. The Republic did allow criminals to rule whole planets and even multiplanetary federations. The Empire did not.

Acts of war. Tragic, but they happen. And in the context of a galactic population of hundreds of trillions, a scale of death and destruction comparable to Dresden, Tokyo, Hamburg, Coventry, and Hiroshima in comparison with the rest of the world.

Right and when did the Empire declare war on Alderaan? Oh wait it didn't. Dresden, Tokyo, etc. were against opponents openly at war. Not a premptive attack without a declaration of war.

Alderaan was part of the Rebel Alliance and it was "a time of civil war in the galaxy". Or did you somehow miss that inconvenient little fact while watching ANH?

There is an aboveground slave trade under the Republic. Under the Empire, the slave trade was definitely driven underground. And in case you haven't been paying attention, there is an underground slave trade in our own contemporary world even with the force of international law arrayed against it. Crime happens.

Yes the people who run it don't happen to come to dinner with the Prime Minister do they? Whereas the Emporer does eat with Prince Xisor of the Black Sun (which "had involvement in every known type of illegal activity")

Rulers do hypocritical things, and some criminals are favoured for a time —for as long as they are useful and always in secret. Just like Saddam Hussein was once our ally under Reagan/Bush. On the whole, however, crime syndicates were not ruling whole planets openly as was the case under the Republic.

Um, I hate to have to point this out, but none of the Star Wars movies has shown us one single dedicated prison planet.

Kessel , Star's End

Very well, a half point to you on that one. Particularly as Kessel was mentioned by C3P0 in ANH.

Whereas in Star Trek, we've seen Federation penal colonies (Tantalus, "Dagger Of The Mind"; Elba II "Whom Gods Destroy") and the whole of New Zealand converted to a "rehabilitation colony" (Voyager), Klingon slave-labour gulags (Rura Penthe, The Undiscovered Country), Dominion and Cardassian prison planets (Deep Space Nine)


First off has the whole of New Zealand been converted to a penal colony? Every reference I recall or find on the net says its *in* New Zealand and not *is* a New Zealand.

The Voyager pilot episode, actually.

Next up there is a categoric difference between a penal colony and a gulag.

Semantics, mainly. Ever been to a Southern state prison? Like Angola?

Star Trek penal colonies may not be the lovefest the rest of the feddie empire is ... but they aren't murderous death traps like oh say Kessel.

Shall we discuss this over a weekend visit to Rura Penthe?

Darth Vader executed two Imperial officers for incompetence in command and one Rebel officer for refusing to give information. He did not kill indiscriminately, and he did not "demote" Admiral Piett after the escape of the Millenium Falcon from Bespin at the end of The Empire Strikes Back.

I see and what "incompotence" did Needa exhibit?

Um, let's see... losing track of the Millenium Falcon.

Further we know they are murderous sons of bitches based on their actions in the prequel

Unless I am mistaken, the prevailing government in the prequels is the Old Republic, not the Empire. Which "murderous sons of bitches" from the prequels are you referring to, exactly?

The real kicker is Palpy has his gardner killed when Prince Xizor hires him away.

We already know Palpatine is insane and capricious; rather like the Roman emperor Caligua. This does not advance your overall argument against the Empire.

In a word, bullshit. Even the "good guys" will order atrocities if it serves a military purpose. It wasn't the Nazis, after all, who burned Dresden, and it wasn't Stalin who nuked Hiroshima.

And what purpose did blowing up Alderaan serve?

A strike against a military target and a means of intimidation against the Rebellion.

When Dresden went up in flames German industrial output dropped significantly.

Nazi Germany's major industrial cities were already in rubble. The country was largely finished. Dresden was mostly an object lesson: surrender or be annihilated.

Nukes were used on Hiroshima only after the military rulers refused to end the war

And thus serving a legitimate military purpose —to force the end of the war.

(minorly relevant note, the Japanese military rulers wanted to continue the war even after the allies beat down Germany and after they were nuked twice ... talk about suicidal fools)

Not quite correct. Despite some of the "death before dishonour" types like Gen. Koretchiki Anami, the Suzuki government was seeking a means to avoid unconditional surrender. Their final hope lay in making an invasion so costly that the Allies would seek a political solution.

But you wouldn't be fighting to the death or your family's death against Mugabe. Or the Empire either, presumably. And talk of "being on the first plane outta there" is nice if you've got a place to run to and the means to run. Nice if you can manage it. Most people can't. So they just shrug their shoulders and get on with their lives as best they can.

I never said I would be. I have long maintained that my preferred course of action would be to RUN AWAY if I ran the federation against the empire. Ruling political elite just don't have the good of historical track record under occupation. Against the emporer who thinks nothing of throwing away imperial troops to prolong the drama for Luke ... I'll take my chances running.

Well then, we seem to have little dispute on the foolishness of the whole "death before dishonour" theory.

If I was going to fight the empire I'd do it *underground*. My first order as the C&C of starfleet facing Imperial invasion would be to disperse and hide to fight guerilla warfare. Everyone who wants to protect themselves would be allowed to go home and knuckle under. The use of suicide forces would be done by the ruling bastard who wants to fight the empire but can't risk his position (as yes *many* of that type exist in the world today).

That strategy didn't work too well for the Indians. Unless you have an expectation of eventually receiving outside aid, all you will accomplish in the end is becoming a terrorist organisation, and the longer the guerilla conflict drags on, the less likely that the balance of the population will ever be sympathetic if the social order remains fairly stable and relatively easy to exist under.

In a war of attrition or maneuvers the federation is dead. They would make halfway decent guerillas/terrorists after the stupid ones are culled (presuming somebody actually survives the culling process).

The stupid ones would be the guerillas carrying on a hopelessly lost fight. Governments are never overthrown unless they either become too unadaptable to changing circumstances, lose confidence in themselves, or are facing the serious threat of defeat against a foreign enemy. Often, at least two of those conditions are in force at the time of the government's downfall. See the Roman Empire as example. Power exists for as long as it is credibly exercised.

[beyond hope]

tharkûn: look at the decades preceding the rise of the Empire. The Republic has become so corrupt that even a blatantly illegal act by the Trade Federation can be tied up in committee or in the courts for so long that by the time they acted, the point would be moot. By the time of AOTC the galaxy is at the point of full-scale war between the Republic and the Secessionists. For the majority of the galaxy's denizens, the Empire represents order and stablility. I thought the Emperor's address at the beginning of TIE Fighter adequately summed up what your average Imperial soldier is fighting for: a return to peace and order. For those who fear or oppose Palpatine's New Order, leaving isn't an option: it means abandoning your home to a government you see as corrupt and evil. Even if you chose to flee to a new galaxy, imagine what you could find there: say you found the home galaxy of the Vong, for example, or came out in Borg space... not exactly an improvement over home, is it? The terror of the unknown is what would keep people from fleeing: the Empire is at least a *known* danger.

To address the main point of the thread: yes, I feel that the "death before dishonor" claims of some of the Trek side are wishful thinking. I would imagine that the first time the Empire BDZs a Federation planet, that there will be a wave of surrenders from other worlds who wish to avoid the same fate. I would also imagine a devastating impact on Starfleet moral: who would want to continue resisting when you know that your homeworld might be the next one slagged if you don't surrender? The Klingons might have the fanaticism for it or the Romulans with their belief in being destined to rule the galaxy: even then I doubt it. The only ST race I can see fighting to the death would be the Borg.

[Doomriser]

I think the reason that Trekkies argue "Death before dishonour" [besides lying and trying to give themselves an edge in total desperation, of course] is because they've been watching years of Trek. Picard has surrendered on several occasions, even to the Ferengi, but also there have been instances where he'd rather blow up his ship than suffer (even temporarily) and lose a few crew at the whim of some crazy alien. This is the same Federation that brings families onto ships of the line. There have been several instances of Picard/Kirk/etc... and presumably the entire crew and their families [they rarely, if ever, fight self-destruct/suicide missions/etc...] willing to give their lives for a cause.

I'm not saying that it's logical, but I believe this may be part of their thinking patterns. The vast majority of evidence demonstrates that ST races are pathetic and spineless.

[tharkûn]

Then what was your point? It certainly does not support the whole "death before dishonour" theory.

The point is that even though the VAST majority of the populace is not up for a suicidal fight, a small fraction of it is. Even if we use only .001% that still is talking about hundreds of thousands of people willing to die ... if not millions. When you start getting population figures on a planetary scale you have *lots* of nutjobs. The whole federation society might not be behind you, but that is certainly nothing to sneeze at.

And your point is...? "Underground" means below the pale of law. The Republic did allow criminals to rule whole planets and even multiplanetary federations. The Empire did not.

The Republic, like the Federation has a good spin machine. The Republic has a serious criminal problem. The Imps have taken the criminals out of "legality" and replaced it with chumming relations between officials and the crooks. Given the observed physcosis of the Emporer ... I'd try my luck elsewhere.

Alderaan was part of the Rebel Alliance and it was "a time of civil war in the galaxy". Or did you somehow miss that inconvenient little fact while watching ANH?
Funny how the size of the Rebel Alliance changes in every debate. When I talk about TESB I'm told that the Rebel Alliance has only a handful of ships. When I talk about Alderaan its a card carrying member.

Face the facts, up until the Emporer dissolved the senate Alderaan was a member. Leia makes claim to diplomatic immunity ... which doesn't exist if a state of war exists. Alderaan was *not* officially Rebel Alliance central, its *leaders* were certainly in cahoots, but that says nothing about the populace as a whole. You claim the planet as a whole was a member of the Rebel Alliance ... your burden of proof.

Rulers do hypocritical things, and some criminals are favoured for a time —for as long as they are useful and always in secret. Just like Saddam Hussein was once our ally under Reagan/Bush. On the whole, however, crime syndicates were not ruling whole planets openly as was the case under the Republic.
Saddam ruled an independant nation ... he was not an outright criminal. There are certain priviliges inherent to having the backing of a sovereign nation and standing army at your back. None of those exist for criminals.

The Voyager pilot episode, actually.
Have a quote? Everything I can find on the net says "in" New Zealand.

Semantics, mainly. Ever been to a Southern state prison? Like Angola?
African Prisons more closely resemble gulags. Would you be happy if I used the term:
Forced labor camp with numerous lethal hazards and deprivations?

Shall we discuss this over a weekend visit to Rura Penthe
Rura Penthe is a gulag. It just ain't feddie. I did not dispute this one being a gulag ... it clearly is.

Um, let's see... losing track of the Millenium Falcon.
And that's his fault how? Really and what qualities did he lack? Did he not do everything by the book? Its only incompotence is a compotent person in the same position would not have failed.

Unless I am mistaken, the prevailing government in the prequels is the Old Republic, not the Empire. Which "murderous sons of bitches" from the prequels are you referring to, exactly?
I'm speaking of the Sith in particular here.

We already know Palpatine is insane and capricious; rather like the Roman emperor Caligua. This does not advance your overall argument against the Empire.
When Caligula came to power many smart Romans moved to Greece. When you have insane capricious people in charge of WMD's ... its time to run the hell away.

A strike against a military target and a means of intimidation against the Rebellion.
Ahh yes terrorism. Normally humane states escalate the intimidation so you have time to I dunno SURRENDER.

Nazi Germany's major industrial cities were already in rubble. The country was largely finished. Dresden was mostly an object lesson: surrender or be annihilated
My apologies I was thinking Hamburg. There are some theories about Dresdan ... that the Soviets wanted it hit because of a tank division in the area, that faulty intelligence described it as a a production centre, etc.

However please note the difference. The Allies gave the Axis an ultimatum and had been steadily escalating their attacks ... the Axis refused to surrender. At Alderaan no terms of surrender were ever offered to the planet and there was no escalation of action against them.

Not quite correct. Despite some of the "death before dishonour" types like Gen. Koretchiki Anami, the Suzuki government was seeking a means to avoid unconditional surrender. Their final hope lay in making an invasion so costly that the Allies would seek a political solution.
Yes I know. I never said they were fighting to the death (though those morons did exist) I merely said they wanted to continue the fight. Continueing the fight would be suicidal.

Well then, we seem to have little dispute on the foolishness of the whole "death before dishonour" theory.
Yes but not everyone is rational, you still have the minor fringe to deal with and they can effect many things . For instance the French Resistance managed to assassinate Darlan and ETA all but single handedly brought down the dictatorship (by killing the heir apparent).

That strategy didn't work too well for the Indians. Unless you have an expectation of eventually receiving outside aid, all you will accomplish in the end is becoming a terrorist organisation, and the longer the guerilla conflict drags on, the less likely that the balance of the population will ever be sympathetic if the social order remains fairly stable and relatively easy to exist under.
The Indians also lacked the ability to blend in with the whites, did not fight guerilla style (they fought in numerous pitched battles), and had little to no organization amongst the resistors. Generally speaking the longer a guerilla war goes on, the better the geurillas look ... every day they don't die is a "win".

The stupid ones would be the guerillas carrying on a hopelessly lost fight. Governments are never overthrown unless they either become too unadaptable to changing circumstances, lose confidence in themselves, or are facing the serious threat of defeat against a foreign enemy. Often, at least two of those conditions are in force at the time of the government's downfall. See the Roman Empire as example. Power exists for as long as it is credibly exercised.
The Empire is certainly the former. It cannot even adapt to break in the line of succession (which is a common failing of unadaptable dictatorships). Power exists until enough people get fed up and change it.

[Patrick Degan]

Then what was your point? It certainly does not support the whole "death before dishonour" theory.

The point is that even though the VAST majority of the populace is not up for a suicidal fight, a small fraction of it is. Even if we use only .001% that still is talking about hundreds of thousands of people willing to die ... if not millions. When you start getting population figures on a planetary scale you have *lots* of nutjobs. The whole federation society might not be behind you, but that is certainly nothing to sneeze at.

We don't even get large percentages of urban populations willing to fight a hopeless guerilla war against an occupying power, much less national populations, and you're positing that whole planetary populations might continue to rise up after a handful of worlds would be subjected to a BDZ or Death Star attack?

And your point is...? "Underground" means below the pale of law. The Republic did allow criminals to rule whole planets and even multiplanetary federations. The Empire did not.

The Republic, like the Federation has a good spin machine. The Republic has a serious criminal problem. The Imps have taken the criminals out of "legality" and replaced it with chumming relations between officials and the crooks. Given the observed physcosis of the Emporer ... I'd try my luck elsewhere.

You still have no point here. Either criminal overlords are running whole worlds and even multiplanetary populations openly because of a weak and corrupt central government (see Nute Gunray) or they are driven underground by a central government not only willing but determined to exercise its enforcement authority. Most people would rather live under a government which drives criminal bosses like Jabba the Hut underground and most people, unless they're directly feeling the weight of the government on their backs, could care less about politics or the Emperor's psychotic episodes.

And as has been pointed out in this thread, just where are you going to run to? The spaces controlled by the Yuuzhan Vong? Some backwater you never heard of and have no clue as to what conditions you'll find there? What guarantee is there that the place you flee to isn't controlled by somebody worse than the Emperor? Most people go with the philosophy "better the devil you know".

Alderaan was part of the Rebel Alliance and it was "a time of civil war in the galaxy". Or did you somehow miss that inconvenient little fact while watching ANH?

Funny how the size of the Rebel Alliance changes in every debate. When I talk about TESB I'm told that the Rebel Alliance has only a handful of ships. When I talk about Alderaan its a card carrying member.

Alderaan was supporting the rebellion, despite Leia's clear lie about her world being peaceful. The novel of ANH tells us that the planetary defences were as strong as any in the Empire and Leia was clearly acting as an agent of the Rebel Alliance. Just what is it about those canon facts which bolsters your case?

Face the facts, up until the Emporer dissolved the senate Alderaan was a member.

Bullshit. The dissolution of the Senate occurred concurrently with Leia's actions in aid of the Rebel Alliance, and the starship she was on was an Alderaan government courier. You have no argument.

Leia makes claim to diplomatic immunity ... which doesn't exist if a state of war exists.

Immaterial. Leia was hanging on to any scrap of legality to protect her status after having been captured by Darth Vader.

Alderaan was *not* officially Rebel Alliance central, its *leaders* were certainly in cahoots, but that says nothing about the populace as a whole. You claim the planet as a whole was a member of the Rebel Alliance ... your burden of proof.

Wrong. The burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate that Alderaan was not supporting the Rebellion, despite the evident canon fact that they were. I never said that Alderaan was the capital of the Alliance (strawman) and you have zero basis for a claim that the population did not support their government. Again, you have no argument.

Rulers do hypocritical things, and some criminals are favoured for a time —for as long as they are useful and always in secret. Just like Saddam Hussein was once our ally under Reagan/Bush. On the whole, however, crime syndicates were not ruling whole planets openly as was the case under the Republic.

Saddam ruled an independant nation

And according to you, Xisor ruled a whole planet. Your point?

he was not an outright criminal.

There is some dispute on that, but do go on...

There are certain priviliges inherent to having the backing of a sovereign nation and standing army at your back. None of those exist for criminals.

They exist for as long as those enforcing the law decide to allow them their privileges. This is operative whether we're talking about civil or international or, in this case, interstellar law.

The Voyager pilot episode, actually.

Have a quote? Everything I can find on the net says "in" New Zealand.

Gee, I'd think the caption which said "Federation Rehabilitation Colony, New Zealand" would be pretty definitive.

Semantics, mainly. Ever been to a Southern state prison? Like Angola?

African Prisons more closely resemble gulags.

Angola State Prison is right here in Louisiana, and its mode of dealing with convicts hasn't changed all that much from the days of Jim Crow.

Would you be happy if I used the term: Forced labor camp with numerous lethal hazards and deprivations?

And you're still bandying semantics.

Um, let's see... losing track of the Millenium Falcon.

And that's his fault how? Really and what qualities did he lack? Did he not do everything by the book? Its only incompotence is a compotent person in the same position would not have failed.

The captain of a ship is responsible for every action on board his vessel and the success or failure to carry out combat orders. That is in every article of military law. If Darth Vader had been the indiscriminate killer you claim, he would have executed the Avenger's entire command staff and half her crew.

Unless I am mistaken, the prevailing government in the prequels is the Old Republic, not the Empire. Which "murderous sons of bitches" from the prequels are you referring to, exactly?

I'm speaking of the Sith in particular here.

The Sith were not members of the Republic government.

We already know Palpatine is insane and capricious; rather like the Roman emperor Caligula. This does not advance your overall argument against the Empire.

When Caligula came to power many smart Romans moved to Greece. When you have insane capricious people in charge of WMD's ... its time to run the hell away.

In a word, bullshit. Caligula was welcomed with open arms by the population, particularly when he had the prosecution lists compiled during the purges of Lucius Aelus Sejanus burned and repealed the taxations enacted under Tiberius. The Roman Senate voted to give Caligula supreme power and placed the destiny of the Empire in his hands. And Caligula's insanity affected only those nobles who were in his proximity. The population at large never even suspected that anything was amiss on the Palantine Hill.

A strike against a military target and a means of intimidation against the Rebellion.

Ahh yes terrorism. Normally humane states escalate the intimidation so you have time to I dunno SURRENDER.

See Dresden.

Nazi Germany's major industrial cities were already in rubble. The country was largely finished. Dresden was mostly an object lesson: surrender or be annihilated

My apologies I was thinking Hamburg. There are some theories about Dresdan ... that the Soviets wanted it hit because of a tank division in the area, that faulty intelligence described it as a a production centre, etc.

Immaterial. Dresden's only military asset at that point in the war was its railyards, and those could have been destroyed in a conventional bombing attack. The Allies waited until masses of refugees from the other bombed cities were crowded within Dresden and then hit them with a two day raid which included the incendiary bombings carried out by RAF Bomber Command. Dresden was an object lesson to the Nazis, and additionally a bit of revenge for the British for Coventry.

However please note the difference. The Allies gave the Axis an ultimatum and had been steadily escalating their attacks ... the Axis refused to surrender. At Alderaan no terms of surrender were ever offered to the planet and there was no escalation of action against them.

Individual cities are never given ultimata to surrender in a war. No terms were offered to Dresden or Hiroshima; they were targeted as object lessons. Alderaan was an object lesson.

Not quite correct. Despite some of the "death before dishonour" types like Gen. Koretchiki Anami, the Suzuki government was seeking a means to avoid unconditional surrender. Their final hope lay in making an invasion so costly that the Allies would seek a political solution.

Yes I know. I never said they were fighting to the death (though those morons did exist) I merely said they wanted to continue the fight. Continueing the fight would be suicidal.

Then you merely support my case.

Well then, we seem to have little dispute on the foolishness of the whole "death before dishonour" theory.

Yes but not everyone is rational, you still have the minor fringe to deal with and they can effect many things . For instance the French Resistance managed to assassinate Darlan and ETA all but single handedly brought down the dictatorship (by killing the heir apparent).

Invalid analogy. The French Underground had a chance of eventually seeing France free because they knew the Allies were also fighting on their side. Without that expectation of victory, their resistance would have been as futile as the Warsaw and Lodz Ghetto uprisings.

That strategy didn't work too well for the Indians. Unless you have an expectation of eventually receiving outside aid, all you will accomplish in the end is becoming a terrorist organisation, and the longer the guerilla conflict drags on, the less likely that the balance of the population will ever be sympathetic if the social order remains fairly stable and relatively easy to exist under.

The Indians also lacked the ability to blend in with the whites, did not fight guerilla style (they fought in numerous pitched battles), and had little to no organization amongst the resistors. Generally speaking the longer a guerilla war goes on, the better the geurillas look ... every day they don't die is a "win".

Every day they don't die is immaterial if they have zero chance of actually winning. Think of Shining Path in Peru.

The stupid ones would be the guerillas carrying on a hopelessly lost fight. Governments are never overthrown unless they either become too unadaptable to changing circumstances, lose confidence in themselves, or are facing the serious threat of defeat against a foreign enemy. Often, at least two of those conditions are in force at the time of the government's downfall. See the Roman Empire as example. Power exists for as long as it is credibly exercised.

The Empire is certainly the former. It cannot even adapt to break in the line of succession (which is a common failing of unadaptable dictatorships). Power exists until enough people get fed up and change it.

I will remind you that people do not rise up merely because they are oppressed and they certainly do not rise up when there is no hope of winning. And no revolutionary movement ever has a hope in hell of winning without outside backing or a siginficant percentage of the military defecting to the rebels. The point stands; power exists for as long as it is credibly exercised.

Until any sort of succession crisis would have arisen, however, Palpatine's government was certainly in full control, as is the government of the Imperial Remnant; whose citizens know that they're not going to be invaded by the Yuuzhan Vong, unlike those in the New Republic.

[tharkûn]

We don't even get large percentages of urban populations willing to fight a hopeless guerilla war against an occupying power, much less national populations, and you're positing that whole planetary populations might continue to rise up after a handful of worlds would be subjected to a BDZ or Death Star attack?
.001% is that blinding hard to understand? Its number somewhat arbitrary, but well within historical observation (see Palestine). Say earth has 10 billion inhabitats that's 100,000 suicidal nutjobs. This is not a sizeable percentage, its a very minute and miniscule percentage which is still less than resistance by others under totalitarian regimes.

You still have no point here. Either criminal overlords are running whole worlds and even multiplanetary populations openly because of a weak and corrupt central government (see Nute Gunray) or they are driven underground by a central government not only willing but determined to exercise its enforcement authority. Most people would rather live under a government which drives criminal bosses like Jabba the Hut underground and most people, unless they're directly feeling the weight of the government on their backs, could care less about politics or the Emperor's psychotic episodes.

Or they are dealt with and not invited to dinner by the head of state.

And as has been pointed out in this thread, just where are you going to run to? The spaces controlled by the Yuuzhan Vong? Some backwater you never heard of and have no clue as to what conditions you'll find there? What guarantee is there that the place you flee to isn't controlled by somebody worse than the Emperor? Most people go with the philosophy "better the devil you know".

Anywhere. Shipboard life is not all that bad. Your speed always you to get the hell away if you don't run into interdiction. Maybe I'm biased by personal events, but I'd get the hell out, especially if I was high ranked.

Alderaan was supporting the rebellion, despite Leia's clear lie about her world being peaceful. The novel of ANH tells us that the planetary defences were as strong as any in the Empire and Leia was clearly acting as an agent of the Rebel Alliance. Just what is it about those canon facts which bolsters your case?
Is Switzerland Peaceful? How about Sweden? Does that mean they are unarmed? Nope. Leia should be punished for her own crimes, one should not hit the planet itself for the crimes of the few unless you are in a state of war.

Bullshit. The dissolution of the Senate occurred concurrently with Leia's actions in aid of the Rebel Alliance, and the starship she was on was an Alderaan government courier. You have no argument.
Do you really enjoy patting yourself on the back? Let's do this US style. A certain senator is caught committing treason is it proper procedure to:
1. Blow up everyone in her state.
2. Hold a trial and punish her.
3. Do nothing.

So long as Alderaan is a member of the senate then the EMPIRE IS NOT AT WAR WITH ALDERAAN.

Immaterial. Leia was hanging on to any scrap of legality to protect her status after having been captured by Darth Vader
That "scrap of legality" is a clear sign that:
1. The empire cares nothing for basic humanitarian law.
2. Alderaan was NOT at war with the Empire.


Wrong. The burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate that Alderaan was not supporting the Rebellion, despite the evident canon fact that they were. I never said that Alderaan was the capital of the Alliance (strawman) and you have zero basis for a claim that the population did not support their government. Again, you have no argument.
I never said that Alderaan was the capital of the alliance either, don't make up straw men either. You claim that the empire was not executing ad hoc collective punishment. The only case in which this would be true is if a state of war exists. You claim they empire is not acting like a genocidal tyranny ... then you prove that the planet (and not the just the leaders) were actively aiding and abetting the leaders.

You are inferring culpeability on the planet as a whole its your damn burden of proof (you know that nice innocent until proven guilty idea).

And according to you, Xisor ruled a whole planet. Your point?
There is this concept called sovereignty if Xisor can lay claim to sovereignty then he is most certainly *not* below ground. If he can't he is not a head of state.

They exist for as long as those enforcing the law decide to allow them their privileges. This is operative whether we're talking about civil or international or, in this case, interstellar law.
I see might makes right?

Gee, I'd think the caption which said "Federation Rehabilitation Colony, New Zealand" would be pretty definitive.
Only to a dumbass. Have you ever seen things like:
London, England
Portland, Oregon
Auckland, New Zealand

You now, STANDARD PRACTICE to denote the country a place inhabits.
Most people are not so stupid as to think that London, England means that London is the *only* thing in England.

And you're still bandying semantics.

Damn you are dense. Look let me spell it for you in short simple words:
Gulag: Characterized by forced labor, insufficient food, high rate of inmate death, extremely inhospitable conditions.

Prison: A place where convicts serve out their debt to society. Forced labor and inhospitable conditions may exist (to a degree) however INMATES DO NOT READILY DIE IN DROVES.

The captain of a ship is responsible for every action on board his vessel and the success or failure to carry out combat orders. That is in every article of military law. If Darth Vader had been the indiscriminate killer you claim, he would have executed the Avenger's entire command staff and half her crew.
Another moron who understands nothing about the military meaning of incompotence. Take any compotent officer of Captain Needa's rank, put him in the same situation. If he can still fail ... ITS NOT INCOMPOTENCE. Incompotence is measure by what the billet responsibilities are and how far from the average you deviate. Could another Captain have done better? No. It was NOT incompotence. It is only incompotence when somebody else could have done a better job and not botched things up.

The Sith were not members of the Republic government.
Do you even bother to read? I note that Palpy et al are murderous. We've seen that.

In a word, bullshit. Caligula was welcomed with open arms by the population, particularly when he had the prosecution lists compiled during the purges of Lucius Aelus Sejanus burned and repealed the taxations enacted under Tiberius. The Roman Senate voted to give Caligula supreme power and placed the destiny of the Empire in his hands. And Caligula's insanity affected only those nobles who were in his proximity. The population at large never even suspected that anything was amiss on the Palantine Hill.
Gee now who would have had the money to move in Roman times? The population at large? No. The guys who realized one does not appoint your horse to high political positions? Yes. Somehow he managed to be so popular he was killed in 4 years.

Caligula followed an age old pattern. He bribed everyone (cash bonus for the gaurd, burning of papers, etc.), abused his power, and those who could got away or helped kill him.

See Dresden.
Yes Dresden. After *years* of seeking German surrender we saw Dresden. We had already leafletted the whole damn country multiple times, we'd burned out most of the other cities. Not to mention we were in a state of war.

Immaterial. Dresden's only military asset at that point in the war was its railyards, and those could have been destroyed in a conventional bombing attack. The Allies waited until masses of refugees from the other bombed cities were crowded within Dresden and then hit them with a two day raid which included the incendiary bombings carried out by RAF Bomber Command. Dresden was an object lesson to the Nazis, and additionally a bit of revenge for the British for Coventry.
Yet it was total war and offers of surrender had already been given.

Individual cities are never given ultimata to surrender in a war. No terms were offered to Dresden or Hiroshima; they were targeted as object lessons. Alderaan was an object lesson.
BS. After object lessons you give the enemy time to *SURRENDER* we did that, both with Germany and with Japan. The Empire didn't even bother, the same damn day they moved against the Rebel base and *never* transmitted terms of surrender.

Alderaan was terrorism, pure and simple.

Invalid analogy. The French Underground had a chance of eventually seeing France free because they knew the Allies were also fighting on their side. Without that expectation of victory, their resistance would have been as futile as the Warsaw and Lodz Ghetto uprisings.
Fine let's ignore the French Revolution. Let's try ETA. You had a vibrant dictatorship which no one in the world was moving to topple (Franco lasted decades and nobody outside gave a damn). ETA killed Carrerro Blanco which did in Franco's regime when he died two years later.

Every day they don't die is immaterial if they have zero chance of actually winning. Think of Shining Path in Peru.

I'll think ETA. They did manage to stop the dictatorship.



I will remind you that people do not rise up merely because they are oppressed and they certainly do not rise up when there is no hope of winning. And no revolutionary movement ever has a hope in hell of winning without outside backing or a siginficant percentage of the military defecting to the rebels. The point stands; power exists for as long as it is credibly exercised.

BS. ETA did it. The IRA did it (and as far as I know no military officers *ever* defected to them). Power exists only so long as nobody else is willing to make greater sacrifices to keep it.

You don't need 50% of the population rising up in revolt. You just need enough with explosives to make a dent.

[Patrick Degan]

We don't even get large percentages of urban populations willing to fight a hopeless guerilla war against an occupying power, much less national populations, and you're positing that whole planetary populations might continue to rise up after a handful of worlds would be subjected to a BDZ or Death Star attack?

.001% is that blinding hard to understand? Its number somewhat arbitrary, but well within historical observation (see Palestine). Say Earth has 10 billion inhabitats that's 100,000 suicidal nutjobs. This is not a sizeable percentage, its a very minute and miniscule percentage which is still less than resistance by others under totalitarian regimes.

Somehow, I don't see a hundred thousand suicidal nutjobs being equal to a ship which can deliver a clean and precise orbital bombardment. And the Palestinian nutjobs aren't faring too well right now with Sharon driving tanks all over them, or haven't you seen the news lately?

Spread the nutjobs out into individual cels, and not one of them can accomplish anything meaningful except to kill civilians by the handful and in so doing drive the civilians further into the government's embrace. Gather them all together and they either die in an orbital bombardment or on a battlefield in one stroke. In the end, they accomplish nothing.

You still have no point here. Either criminal overlords are running whole worlds and even multiplanetary populations openly because of a weak and corrupt central government (see Nute Gunray) or they are driven underground by a central government not only willing but determined to exercise its enforcement authority. Most people would rather live under a government which drives criminal bosses like Jabba the Hut underground and most people, unless they're directly feeling the weight of the government on their backs, could care less about politics or the Emperor's psychotic episodes.


Or they are dealt with and not invited to dinner by the head of state.

You mean like Saddam Hussein and Manual Noriega weren't courted by Reagan/Bush...oh, that's right. They were. Until they were no longer useful.

And as has been pointed out in this thread, just where are you going to run to? The spaces controlled by the Yuuzhan Vong? Some backwater you never heard of and have no clue as to what conditions you'll find there? What guarantee is there that the place you flee to isn't controlled by somebody worse than the Emperor? Most people go with the philosophy "better the devil you know".


Anywhere. Shipboard life is not all that bad. Your speed always you to get the hell away if you don't run into interdiction. Maybe I'm biased by personal events, but I'd get the hell out, especially if I was high ranked.

And how long do you keep your shipboard life before the supplies run out?

Alderaan was supporting the rebellion, despite Leia's clear lie about her world being peaceful. The novel of ANH tells us that the planetary defences were as strong as any in the Empire and Leia was clearly acting as an agent of the Rebel Alliance. Just what is it about those canon facts which bolsters your case?

Is Switzerland Peaceful? How about Sweden? Does that mean they are unarmed? Nope. Leia should be punished for her own crimes, one should not hit the planet itself for the crimes of the few unless you are in a state of war.

False analogy. Alderaan was supporting the Rebel Alliance materially and politically. They were not neutral in the war. I'm sorry if the canon facts of ANH don't suit you, but there it is. That made Alderaan a military target similar to Dresden and Hiroshima.

Bullshit. The dissolution of the Senate occurred concurrently with Leia's actions in aid of the Rebel Alliance, and the starship she was on was an Alderaan government courier. You have no argument.

Do you really enjoy patting yourself on the back? Let's do this US style. A certain senator is caught committing treason is it proper procedure to:
1. Blow up everyone in her state.
2. Hold a trial and punish her.
3. Do nothing.

So long as Alderaan is a member of the senate then the EMPIRE IS NOT AT WAR WITH ALDERAAN.

More bullshit and more false analogies. Alderaan was supporting the Rebellion. Materially, politically. That it was also maintaining a representative seat in the Imperial Senate (a political manoevuer to split the council and hinder the Imperial war effort) does not negate this fact, no matter how much you wish it did.

And as for doing this "U.S. style", what do you call the Civil War? We made war against our own states, burned our own cities, killed our own people.

Immaterial. Leia was hanging on to any scrap of legality to protect her status after having been captured by Darth Vader

That "scrap of legality" is a clear sign that:
1. The empire cares nothing for basic humanitarian law.
2. Alderaan was NOT at war with the Empire.

Because you say so? I'm afraid not. Alderaan was at war with the Empire for as long as it was part of the Rebel Alliance. What part of this canon fact from ANH escapes you? And as for the Empire "not caring for basic humanitarian law", neither did we when we nuked Hiroshima.

Wrong. The burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate that Alderaan was not supporting the Rebellion, despite the evident canon fact that they were. I never said that Alderaan was the capital of the Alliance (strawman) and you have zero basis for a claim that the population did not support their government. Again, you have no argument.

I never said that Alderaan was the capital of the alliance either, don't make up straw men either.

Then what was the point of your even bringing that up in the first place?

You claim that the empire was not executing ad hoc collective punishment. The only case in which this would be true is if a state of war exists.

"It was a time of civil war in the galaxy". I'm sorry if that canon fact from ANH doesn't suit you.

You claim they empire is not acting like a genocidal tyranny

Genocide is the extermination of an entire species. The people of Alderaan were quite human, and humans number in the hundreds of trillions in the SW galaxy. Destroying Alderaan is no more genocide than destroying Hiroshima was.

then you prove that the planet (and not the just the leaders) were actively aiding and abetting the leaders.

Appeal to Ignorance fallacy and False Dilemma fallacy. Your reasoning suggests that Alderaan was a dictatorship if its government was operating without the consent of its people in supporting a rebellion against the Imperial government. I have to prove no such thing. You do. Demonstrate whare Leia was not operating without the consent or knowledge of her own people.

You are inferring culpeability on the planet as a whole its your damn burden of proof (you know that nice innocent until proven guilty idea).

Then why didn't the people of Alderaan overthrow the Organas and install a more compliant senator to represent them in the Imperial council? How is an open rebel allowed to maintain her position of power in the government?

And according to you, Xisor ruled a whole planet. Your point?

There is this concept called sovereignty if Xisor can lay claim to sovereignty then he is most certainly *not* below ground. If he can't he is not a head of state.

Which makes him no different from Saddam Hussein or Manuel Noriega. If he is not soverign, then he is no different from the mob bosses our own CIA nurtured for decades with the implicit approval of at least three presidents in our own history.

They exist for as long as those enforcing the law decide to allow them their privileges. This is operative whether we're talking about civil or international or, in this case, interstellar law.

I see might makes right?

Often, that is the way it works in the Real World. I'm sorry that this also doesn't suit you.

Gee, I'd think the caption which said "Federation Rehabilitation Colony, New Zealand" would be pretty definitive.

Only to a dumbass. Have you ever seen things like:
London, England
Portland, Oregon
Auckland, New Zealand

Yes I have. And this does not resolve the question before the bar.

You now, STANDARD PRACTICE to denote the country a place inhabits.
Most people are not so stupid as to think that London, England means that London is the *only* thing in England.

Thank you for the geography lesson. This still does not resolve the question before the bar.

Damn you are dense

Getting a little hot under the collar, are we?

Look let me spell it for you in short simple words

Are there words simple enough for you?

Gulag: Characterized by forced labor, insufficient food, high rate of inmate death, extremely inhospitable conditions. Prison: A place where convicts serve out their debt to society. Forced labor and inhospitable conditions may exist (to a degree) however INMATES DO NOT READILY DIE IN DROVES.

Prisons have varying degrees of privation in every society (even a dictatorship), and the extent of severity depends upon the government in charge.

And if you imagine we didn't have prisons with inmates dying in droves in our own history, I need only point you to the example of Andersonville.

The captain of a ship is responsible for every action on board his vessel and the success or failure to carry out combat orders. That is in every article of military law. If Darth Vader had been the indiscriminate killer you claim, he would have executed the Avenger's entire command staff and half her crew.

Another moron who understands nothing about the military meaning of incompotence. Take any compotent officer of Captain Needa's rank, put him in the same situation. If he can still fail ... ITS NOT INCOMPOTENCE. Incompotence is measure by what the billet responsibilities are and how far from the average you deviate. Could another Captain have done better? No. It was NOT incompotence. It is only incompotence when somebody else could have done a better job and not botched things up.

No, we're talking about a moron who does not understand how a captain is held responsible for the failures of his ship to carry out its mission —yourself. We're not talking about "fair" here. It does not matter if it's the fault of Ensign Anonymous if the ship fails to carry out a combat assignment. The blame falls upon the captain's head.

The Sith were not members of the Republic government.

Do you even bother to read? I note that Palpy et al are murderous. We've seen that.

So are most rulers and would-be rulers in history. I'm sorry if that messy reality is among the things which don't suit you.

In a word, bullshit. Caligula was welcomed with open arms by the population, particularly when he had the prosecution lists compiled during the purges of Lucius Aelus Sejanus burned and repealed the taxations enacted under Tiberius. The Roman Senate voted to give Caligula supreme power and placed the destiny of the Empire in his hands. And Caligula's insanity affected only those nobles who were in his proximity. The population at large never even suspected that anything was amiss on the Palantine Hill.

Gee now who would have had the money to move in Roman times? The population at large? No. The guys who realized one does not appoint your horse to high political positions? Yes. Somehow he managed to be so popular he was killed in 4 years.

And most of the Senate remained to serve under him, despite everything Caligula indulged and how many people he had executed.

Oh, and by the way, Caligula was not deposed by a popular revolt. He was assasinated by certain officers of the Praetorian Guard. Not even the entire Guard was overly distressed by Caligula's madness.

Caligula followed an age old pattern. He bribed everyone (cash bonus for the gaurd, burning of papers, etc.), abused his power, and those who could got away or helped kill him.

Try actually reading Roman history instead of talking out of your ass.

Yes Dresden. After *years* of seeking German surrender we saw Dresden. We had already leafletted the whole damn country multiple times, we'd burned out most of the other cities. Not to mention we were in a state of war.

Yet Dresden was not invited to surrender. We left it untouched, waited for refugees to cram the city, then hit them in a two day raid which burned large portions of it to the ground as an object lesson. And I hate to tell you this, but a lot of German civilians were still willing to support their own government especially as they did not want to live under Soviet occupation. They ignored the leaflets urging surrender.

Yet it was total war and offers of surrender had already been given.

And yet we bombed a city full of refugees just to make a point. How does that make us any different from the inhuman, genocidal murderers of the Empire?

Individual cities are never given ultimata to surrender in a war. No terms were offered to Dresden or Hiroshima; they were targeted as object lessons. Alderaan was an object lesson.

BS.

Your own, actually.

After object lessons you give the enemy time to *SURRENDER* we did that, both with Germany and with Japan. The Empire didn't even bother, the same damn day they moved against the Rebel base and *never* transmitted terms of surrender.

The Germans refused to surrender, and Dresden was burned to the ground. The Japanese refused to surrender, and Hiroshima was nuked. Offers of surrender were not offered to either city, and the object was to intimidate their governments into surrender.

Alderaan was terrorism, pure and simple.

So were Dresden and Hiroshima, technically. They were also acts of war.

Invalid analogy. The French Underground had a chance of eventually seeing France free because they knew the Allies were also fighting on their side. Without that expectation of victory, their resistance would have been as futile as the Warsaw and Lodz Ghetto uprisings.

Fine let's ignore the French Revolution.

We can ignore it because it does not fit your parametres in any way, shape, or form. The French monarchy was hopelessly incompetent and the army pretty much deserted the crown. Louis could no longer exercise power credibly.

Let's try ETA. You had a vibrant dictatorship which no one in the world was moving to topple (Franco lasted decades and nobody outside gave a damn). ETA killed Carrerro Blanco which did in Franco's regime when he died two years later.

And again, you're talking about a situation in which the old regime was no longer credible and didn't even enjoy the support of the army.

Every day they don't die is immaterial if they have zero chance of actually winning. Think of Shining Path in Peru.

I'll think ETA. They did manage to stop the dictatorship.

As you wish.

I will remind you that people do not rise up merely because they are oppressed and they certainly do not rise up when there is no hope of winning. And no revolutionary movement ever has a hope in hell of winning without outside backing or a siginficant percentage of the military defecting to the rebels. The point stands; power exists for as long as it is credibly exercised

BS.

Your own, I believe.

ETA did it. The IRA did it (and as far as I know no military officers *ever* defected to them).

The IRA made negotiation and accomodation its policy and won its victories on the parliamentary stage. Until then, their campaign of terror had gotten them nowhere.

Power exists only so long as nobody else is willing to make greater sacrifices to keep it.

Are you even aware of how badly you mangled whatever point you were trying to make?

You don't need 50% of the population rising up in revolt. You just need enough with explosives to make a dent.

Just like Shining Path, eh? How have explosives gotten them anywhere near their goals? Or, howzabout the Confederate States of America. Lots of explosives and whole field armies didn't help them, did it?