Darth Vader inside a Cube

[Howedar]

How do we know the Borg have never done that,

Because the capability has never been demonstrated, and adaptation is canonically known to be at least partially based on frequencies.

[Isolder74]

first any borg who tries to touch Vader is going to get flung into the bulkhead second FORCE CHOKE!.

Can't believe I missed this. Borg don't have to breathe - remember First Contact? The drones outside the ship weren't even protected from space, and the Queen wasn't even connected to her body (assuming it has lungs) the whole time.

So DATA KILLED ONE BY SNAPPING HIS NECK AND FROM THE CRUNCHING SOUNDS WHEN Vader uses the power that is exactally what it does to someone!

Please excuse the caps my shift key got stuck

[Metrion Cascade]

first any borg who tries to touch Vader is going to get flung into the bulkhead second FORCE CHOKE!.

Can't believe I missed this. Borg don't have to breathe - remember First Contact? The drones outside the ship weren't even protected from space, and the Queen wasn't even connected to her body (assuming it has lungs) the whole time.

So DATA KILLED ONE BY SNAPPING HIS NECK AND FROM THE CRUNCHING SOUNDS WHEN Vader uses the power that is exactally what it does to someone!

Please excuse the caps my shift key got stuck

Then how do they keep their hands around their necks? Shouldn't those hands fall once the spinal cord is severed? And the crunching sounds could be tracheal cartilage, which is consistent with the victim's sometimes prolonged suffering and the fact that they don't die instantly.

[Metrion Cascade]

How do we know the Borg have never done that,

Because the capability has never been demonstrated, and adaptation is canonically known to be at least partially based on frequencies.

We have seen some Borg shields (but not necessarily the drones' shields) adapt to pure energy. Which means they may make Vader's lightsaber totally ineffective, or only slightly less effective. Depending on the saber's output and the size of the "safety margin" afforded by the adaptation. And we don't know that the adaptation is based on frequencies. It's based on "modulations" which are not necessarily frequency modulations but possibly phase modulations. I have not once heard the term "frequency" in reference to Borg shields adapting to Starfleet phasers. Phaser beams are probably just that - phase modulated to pass through the shields in some phase where the shields aren't present, like Geordi through a bulkhead. The "adaptation" would then be a change in the shields' phase modulation, so they're in the way when the beam arrives. We know that Enterprise "phase cannon" are "phase modulated energy weapons." Do phasers work in similar fashion?

[Isolder74]

Can't believe I missed this. Borg don't have to breathe - remember First Contact? The drones outside the ship weren't even protected from space, and the Queen wasn't even connected to her body (assuming it has lungs) the whole time.

So DATA KILLED ONE BY SNAPPING HIS NECK AND FROM THE CRUNCHING SOUNDS WHEN Vader uses the power that is exactally what it does to someone!

Please excuse the caps my shift key got stuck

Then how do they keep their hands around their necks? Shouldn't those hands fall once the spinal cord is severed? And the crunching sounds could be tracheal cartilage, which is consistent with the victim's sometimes prolonged suffering and the fact that they don't die instantly.

Because Vader enjoys watching them die that way so he leaves that part for last, duh! They far to quick to be simple suffocation

[Howedar]

We have seen some Borg shields (but not necessarily the drones' shields) adapt to pure energy. Which means they may make Vader's lightsaber totally ineffective, or only slightly less effective. Depending on the saber's output and the size of the "safety margin" afforded by the adaptation.

As you say, we've never seen drone shields do this. In other words, you lose.

And we don't know that the adaptation is based on frequencies. It's based on "modulations" which are not necessarily frequency modulations but possibly phase modulations. I have not once heard the term "frequency" in reference to Borg shields adapting to Starfleet phasers.

I invoke Occam's Razor. We know that shields are modulated based on frequency, and that matching phasers to the shield frequency allows the phasers to pass through. The logical conclusion is that the modulation made to the phasers is that of frequency.

Phaser beams are probably just that - phase modulated to pass through the shields in some phase where the shields aren't present, like Geordi through a bulkhead.

Ah, so thats why phasers are invisible when they're phased, just like Geordi.

Oops, they aren't.


Aside from that, you do realize that "phase modulation" WRT an energy weapon would be changing the phase of the energy, and thereby its frequency. Right?

Or do you just like to throw words about with no idea as to what they mean?

The "adaptation" would then be a change in the shields' phase modulation, so they're in the way when the beam arrives.

We know that Enterprise "phase cannon" are "phase modulated energy weapons." Do phasers work in similar fashion?

They do not phase like Geordi. They probably are variable frequency.

[YT300000]

We have seen some Borg shields (but not necessarily the drones' shields) adapt to pure energy.

When? Where?

Lightsabres can cut through matter. Any matter. Even cortosis (it just takes forever, cause your sabre keeps turning off). They put out a tremendous amount of energy, and borg personal shields require frequency modulation to properly block something. Occams razor. Logically, a lightsabre should be able to slice and dice Borg. If you disagree, the burden of proof is on you.

[Metrion Cascade]

We have seen some Borg shields (but not necessarily the drones' shields) adapt to pure energy. Which means they may make Vader's lightsaber totally ineffective, or only slightly less effective. Depending on the saber's output and the size of the "safety margin" afforded by the adaptation.

As you say, we've never seen drone shields do this. In other words, you lose.

It hasn't been demonstrated that Borg ship and personnel shields use two different methods of adaptation. Both processes have been described in the same terms ("modulations" not specifically referred to as phase or frequency modulations). I'll assume they're the same until shown otherwise.

And we don't know that the adaptation is based on frequencies. It's based on "modulations" which are not necessarily frequency modulations but possibly phase modulations. I have not once heard the term "frequency" in reference to Borg shields adapting to Starfleet phasers.

I invoke Occam's Razor. We know that shields are modulated based on frequency, and that matching phasers to the shield frequency allows the phasers to pass through. The logical conclusion is that the modulation made to the phasers is that of frequency.

Phaser beams are probably just that - phase modulated to pass through the shields in some phase where the shields aren't present, like Geordi through a bulkhead.

Ah, so thats why phasers are invisible when they're phased, just like Geordi.

Oops, they aren't.

Occam's razor sure sounds nice, but phasers have demonstrated far too complex a range of behaviors. Did I say the entire beam had to be phased? No. If every component of the beams were phased, they'd never damage unphased matter. It's rather well demonstrated that to do all the things phasers do (or to have such inconsistent effectiveness - however you want to word it), they must have a multitude of properties and behave like a multitude of different weapons. Some targets explode, others are "disintegrated" - phased out of normal space-time.

Aside from that, you do realize that "phase modulation" WRT an energy weapon would be changing the phase of the energy, and thereby its frequency. Right?

Or do you just like to throw words about with no idea as to what they mean?

The "adaptation" would then be a change in the shields' phase modulation, so they're in the way when the beam arrives. We know that Enterprise "phase cannon" are "phase modulated energy weapons." Do phasers work in similar fashion?

They do not phase like Geordi. They probably are variable frequency.

Again, let's see the word "frequency" used in reference to phasers and Borg shields. Anywhere. There are none. Shield frequency in other cases, yes. Which may mean that phasers are both phase and frequency modulated, but that frequency modulation wasn't what they used against the Borg. I didn't say the frequency can't be changed. I said that Borg adaptation isn't dependent on frequency modulation. That doesn't mean it's not possible, only that it's pointless against Borg.

Assuming that when they change the phase they change the frequency (they might adjust it to match its pre-phasing frequency), this still doesn't mean it's the frequency that made the difference. Two separate effects have been created, and you're assuming it's the frequency change that makes the difference. This has never been stated.

[Metrion Cascade]

We have seen some Borg shields (but not necessarily the drones' shields) adapt to pure energy.

When? Where?

Lightsabres can cut through matter. Any matter. Even cortosis (it just takes forever, cause your sabre keeps turning off). They put out a tremendous amount of energy, and borg personal shields require frequency modulation to properly block something. Occams razor. Logically, a lightsabre should be able to slice and dice Borg. If you disagree, the burden of proof is on you.

I never said that lightsabres can't cut matter. So that's irrelevant. A better question. Where have you seen a lightsabre cut through any SW forcefield? And if you can find such an example, how do you compare a SW forcefield to a Borg one? "Tremendous" is not a number, and says nothing objective about the sabre's output relative to anything else. And no, it is not yet a given that Borg shields require frequency modulation. There are so many cases of "shield frequencies" being matched when that was the case. Why, then was the word "frequency" so meticulously avoided in reference to "modulating" the same weapons against Borg shields? Because they were not referring to frequency modulation. Hence the burden of proof is back on you to prove that it's frequency that makes the difference against Borg shields, since the people using the weapons refused to say so.

[Kuja]

It hasn't been demonstrated that Borg ship and personnel shields use two different methods of adaptation. Both processes have been described in the same terms ("modulations" not specifically referred to as phase or frequency modulations). I'll assume they're the same until shown otherwise.

Then the size of the power source makes no difference to you? A Cube's power source has a far greater output than an individual drone's, and thus will be capable of much more.

[Chardok]

What was the door on the Trade fed ship made of when qui-gon ass raped it with his sabre?

I still stick by my force lightning/TK argument. I say let her have her "Almighy Borg adaptation to be immune to anything short of a supernova" argument. you still haven't addressed the fact that Vader, absent a large metallic object vader could use borg bodies in the place of the LMO's. (Yeah, there are no large metallic objects Vader could rip out of a wall on a HUGE FUCKING CUBE THAT CAN TAKE MULTIPLE VOLLEYS OF PHASER/PHOTON TORP DAMAGE AND SURVIVE FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME IN THE VACUUM OF SPACE without it destroying the ship. to wit:

<snip>
The ship would probably fall apart even if he killed all the drones needed to maintain it.

Or did I misunderstand you?

<snip>And the spaces tend to be a bit cramped.

and as for cramped spaces...So Effing what? that's to Vader's advantage, not the Borg. less space around him he must defend once they begin mindlessly shuffling towards him at a blazing 1/2 meters per second to attack him.

Here's an alternate scenario:
Vader appears on the ship, is not percieved as a threat, so the borg leave him alone (They've done this before) he searches the force and feels a particularly strong disturbance from the Queen's chamber. Vader goes there. Tells the queen she must take the ship back to his galaxy, blah blah blah. She refuses, "Prepare to be assimilated" and all that horseshit, then, next thing you know, stir-fried queen on a laser spit.

(I concocted this scenario from just observed phenomena of the Borg....I can't quote episodes, just the fact that i've seen it. and I'm also thinking....there is a queen on each cube, right? if there isn't Replace the word Queen with whomever dictates orders from the collective to the other drones of the ship.)

[Metrion Cascade]

It hasn't been demonstrated that Borg ship and personnel shields use two different methods of adaptation. Both processes have been described in the same terms ("modulations" not specifically referred to as phase or frequency modulations). I'll assume they're the same until shown otherwise.

Then the size of the power source makes no difference to you? A Cube's power source has a far greater output than an individual drone's, and thus will be capable of much more.

Where did I even imply this? I said the methods are the same. Not the power outputs. "I'll assume they're the same until shown otherwise" meant "I'll assume the METHODS are the same until shown otherwise."

[Metrion Cascade]

What was the door on the Trade fed ship made of when qui-gon ass raped it with his sabre?

I still stick by my force lightning/TK argument. I say let her have her "Almighy Borg adaptation to be immune to anything short of a supernova" argument.

I didn't say they could withstand any amount of power from Vader's sabre. I said they could adapt to it, and (IF the sabre has a high enough output) still sustain damage from it.

And what does the Trade fed door have to do with forcefields?

you still haven't addressed the fact that Vader, absent a large metallic object vader could use borg bodies in the place of the LMO's. (Yeah, there are no large metallic objects Vader could rip out of a wall on a HUGE FUCKING CUBE THAT CAN TAKE MULTIPLE VOLLEYS OF PHASER/PHOTON TORP DAMAGE AND SURVIVE FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME IN THE VACUUM OF SPACE without it destroying the ship. to wit:

<snip>
The ship would probably fall apart even if he killed all the drones needed to maintain it.

Or did I misunderstand you?

I'll concede that some objects can be thrown around. Drones, at least, but woe is Vader if he rips open a plasma conduit or external hull plating. Wars ships don't have the patented "exploding console." Borg cubes do. And whether you misunderstood my statement about the ship "falling apart" depends on what you think I meant. Yes, a Borg cube did spontaneously explode when its drones were shut off. Maybe the antimatter containers failed, or the SIF. But the ship did go boom. Apparently, these ships require constant maintenance and control, and if this has changed since BOBW, it hasn't changed much (case in point, the cube on which the Borg children were found). My "fall apart" was both literal and figurative.

[Kuja]

Where did I even imply this? I said the methods are the same. Not the power outputs. "I'll assume they're the same until shown otherwise" meant "I'll assume the METHODS are the same until shown otherwise."

My point is that if a Cube managed to adapt to a beam of pure energy, a drone would not necessarily be able to duplicate that ability, unless the beam was orders of magnitude weaker.

I wonder what a phaser beam would have done to the DCS blast door in TPM, a door which would have resisted blasterfire. Considering that they can't even punch a hole on the Enterprise-Es bulkheads in NEM, I'd wager not much. A lightsaber, on the other hand, was able to burn through.

Lightsaber>drone shields.

[Darth Fanboy]

and what does the Trade fed door have to do with forcefields?

The lightsaber went thru the trade fed door, that was a heavy blast door. It would show how powerful the lightsaber is in that instance. Using that you can tell how much power the Borg field would have to handle in order to block.

Vader would butcher borg all day until he got tired, but since borg are retarded and never react until something becomes a threat then Vader could figure out his course of action before chopping heads.

Vader, being unrecognized as a threat, could proceed towards the Borg Queen or wherever his force sense leads him too, could then proceed to either send a signal to a nearby Imperial Ship or take a shuttle or shuttle-like craft if he can find it. he then proceeds to make his stand. Since the Borg do not adapt to Kinetic Weaponry, Vader merely uses Force push techniques on hapless borg.

a Lightsaber? Adapting to it? utter BS unless you have some evidence. Even giving the benefit of the doubt that the Energy part of the lightsaber is rendered useless the kinetic aspect of it still remains (its not like the blade is going to magically pass straight through the borg or spalsh around it), Vader could simply beat them to death with it like it was a louisville slugger, and with his force enhanced strength and fighting techniques he could crush a skull or cave in vital systems with but a swing.

As for the mind trick, there is not enough information for anyone to have a guarantted accurate speculation. It could work on an indivdual Borg, work on Every Borg at once, or fail miserably, unknown.

[Metrion Cascade]

Where did I even imply this? I said the methods are the same. Not the power outputs. "I'll assume they're the same until shown otherwise" meant "I'll assume the METHODS are the same until shown otherwise."

My point is that if a Cube managed to adapt to a beam of pure energy, a drone would not necessarily be able to duplicate that ability, unless the beam was orders of magnitude weaker.

Right. I'm saying that the methods are the same. But the cube has limits even after it adapts, and the drones also have limits (smaller ones, but never defeated by phasers).

I wonder what a phaser beam would have done to the DCS blast door in TPM, a door which would have resisted blasterfire. Considering that they can't even punch a hole on the Enterprise-Es bulkheads in NEM, I'd wager not much. A lightsaber, on the other hand, was able to burn through.

Lightsaber>drone shields.

You never saw the DCS door withstand blaster fire. So you don't know that it "would have." Nor is there any way to compare Trek bulkhead metals to Wars metals. And assuming every assumtion you state is true...we've never seen phasers work against drone shields once they were raised. Your argument:

Lightsabre or blaster>DCS door>Trek bulkhead>phasers>drone shields.

But one of these links is unprovable, and the other is completely false.
Lighsabre or blaster>DCS door~Trek bulkhead>phasers<drone shields.

[Kuja]

Right. I'm saying that the methods are the same. But the cube has limits even after it adapts, and the drones also have limits (smaller ones, but never defeated by phasers).

Of course it has limits. Raw power will always obliterate a target, provided that it is supplied in vast enough quantities.

You never saw the DCS door withstand blaster fire.

Yes I did. After the Jedi jumped out of the way, both Destroyer droids nailed it. There was zero visible damage to the other side except what had already been caused by Qui-Gon. Lightsaber>blasters.

So you don't know that it "would have."

See above.

Nor is there any way to compare Trek bulkhead metals to Wars metals.

Puh-leeze. We've seen the walls on the DS take blaster bolts with minimal damage, while the walls of Docking Bay 94 got torso-sized chunks blown out of them. No phaser, to my knowledge, has ever been able to blow a torso-sized hole in any material of any kind. Blaster bolts to the chest of a human send him flying into the nearest wall (Ep4 prison shootout). Phasers magically disintigrate a target, but have never shown that kind of raw power. Blasters>phasers.

And assuming every assumtion you state is true...we've never seen phasers work against drone shields once they were raised.

Because phasers do not have the raw power that blasters do. And since lightsabers are clearly more powerful than blasters, Lightsaber>phaser.

Your argument:

Lightsabre or blaster>DCS door>Trek bulkhead>phasers>drone shields.

But one of these links is unprovable, and the other is completely false.
Lighsabre or blaster>DCS door~Trek bulkhead>phasers<drone shields.

Here is my claim, as I have proved it:

Lightsaber>blaster>drone shield>phaser.

Never did I claim that a phaser was more powerful than a drone shield.


And I'm not even getting into what Vader could do to the drones with the Force. He could snap their necks, rip their mechanical attachments out of their bodies, smash them into the bulkheads, force them to fire inaccurately by seizing their gun arms and pushing them. The drones are utterly fucked.

[Metrion Cascade]

and what does the Trade fed door have to do with forcefields?

The lightsaber went thru the trade fed door, that was a heavy blast door. It would show how powerful the lightsaber is in that instance. Using that you can tell how much power the Borg field would have to handle in order to block.

No, it doesn't. "Heavy blast door" isn't a value. What does it take to get through that door in some actual unit of measure?

Vader would butcher borg all day until he got tired, but since borg are retarded and never react until something becomes a threat then Vader could figure out his course of action before chopping heads.

Vader, being unrecognized as a threat, could proceed towards the Borg Queen or wherever his force sense leads him too, could then proceed to either send a signal to a nearby Imperial Ship or take a shuttle or shuttle-like craft if he can find it. he then proceeds to make his stand. Since the Borg do not adapt to Kinetic Weaponry, Vader merely uses Force push techniques on hapless borg.

There is no queen on a run-of-the-mill cube. And I already conceded that individual drones could be tossed around. Too bad there are thousands of them.

a Lightsaber? Adapting to it? utter BS unless you have some evidence. Even giving the benefit of the doubt that the Energy part of the lightsaber is rendered useless the kinetic aspect of it still remains (its not like the blade is going to magically pass straight through the borg or spalsh around it), Vader could simply beat them to death with it like it was a louisville slugger, and with his force enhanced strength and fighting techniques he could crush a skull or cave in vital systems with but a swing.

The lightsabre is not a kinetic weapon. It's an energy weapon with a massless blade (canonically stated according to YT300000). Hence no momentum at all.

As for the mind trick, there is not enough information for anyone to have a guarantted accurate speculation. It could work on an indivdual Borg, work on Every Borg at once, or fail miserably, unknown.

The Borg may not even have what Vader would sense as a mind. I'll not even guess at this one.

[Alyeska]

Metrion Cascade, you have been called. You made the claim that Borg ships have adapted to pure energy on a non frequency basis. Prove this.

And here is a little FYI. Even with adaption, Borg ships are not invulnerable. It just makes their shielding much more effective. Drones have a limited endurance against enemy fire. We know in a theoretical sense they can withstand into the low MJ range. This is far and above most weapons. The question is, is this above the output of a light sabre?

Well do we have any examples we can use to gauge the power behind a light sabre? There have been no statements on power output nor longevity. We know the power cores do eventualy get used up and we've seen it happen at least one time. So just how much can a sabre put out?

Lets take a slightly different track. Most SW ships are designed to defend against energy bassed attacks. This is by and far the most common ship to ship weapon system. Shields and armor are both opimized against energy. This is why relatively low KT strikes on armor do considerably more damage. What this means is SW ships are optimized primarily for energy.

I bet you see where I'm going here. In the Thrawn Triology Luke used his sabre to carve through the hull of an Imperial Shuttle. We know Imperial Shuttles can take a fair beating from fighter level weapons which are rated in the KT range. This means that sabres can cut through armor in the KT rating. Whatever a sabre does, it has enough absolute power contained to defeat armor of a massive level.

Borg shields are going to be worthless against sabres. Their only hope would be to send a feedback loop into the sabre and we already know Borg shields opperate on a different level.

[Metrion Cascade]

Right. I'm saying that the methods are the same. But the cube has limits even after it adapts, and the drones also have limits (smaller ones, but never defeated by phasers).

Of course it has limits. Raw power will always obliterate a target, provided that it is supplied in vast enough quantities.

You never saw the DCS door withstand blaster fire.

Yes I did. After the Jedi jumped out of the way, both Destroyer droids nailed it. There was zero visible damage to the other side except what had already been caused by Qui-Gon. Lightsaber>blasters.

So you don't know that it "would have."

See above.

Nor is there any way to compare Trek bulkhead metals to Wars metals.

Puh-leeze. We've seen the walls on the DS take blaster bolts with minimal damage, while the walls of Docking Bay 94 got torso-sized chunks blown out of them. No phaser, to my knowledge, has ever been able to blow a torso-sized hole in any material of any kind. Blaster bolts to the chest of a human send him flying into the nearest wall (Ep4 prison shootout). Phasers magically disintigrate a target, but have never shown that kind of raw power. Blasters>phasers.

Conceded, but this doesn't help you.

And assuming every assumtion you state is true...we've never seen phasers work against drone shields once they were raised.

Because phasers do not have the raw power that blasters do. And since lightsabers are clearly more powerful than blasters, Lightsaber>phaser.

But you still can't find any example of what it takes to penetrate drone shields. No energy weapon has ever done this onscreen, so we can't establish an upper limit for them. We can assume they're less powerful than Borg cube shields, which were only felled by several days of combined fire from an undetermined number of ships.

Your argument:

Lightsabre or blaster>DCS door>Trek bulkhead>phasers>drone shields.

But one of these links is unprovable, and the other is completely false.
Lighsabre or blaster>DCS door~Trek bulkhead>phasers<drone shields.

Here is my claim, as I have proved it:

Lightsaber>blaster>drone shield>phaser.

You never proved that blasters are more powerful than drone shields. You never offered any comparison at all.

Never did I claim that a phaser was more powerful than a drone shield.


And I'm not even getting into what Vader could do to the drones with the Force. He could snap their necks, rip their mechanical attachments out of their bodies, smash them into the bulkheads, force them to fire inaccurately by seizing their gun arms and pushing them. The drones are utterly fucked.

Run of the mill drones have no distance weapons. Only brute strength and assimilation tubules.

As it stands, the only concrete thing we know about drone shields is that they are less powerful than cube shields.

Cube shields>drone shields. We can assume that shipmounted phasers and torpedoes will kill a drone, since they damage cubes. But no energy weapon has ever actually been shown penetrating drone shields.

[Darth Fanboy]

No, it doesn't. "Heavy blast door" isn't a value. What does it take to get through that door in some actual unit of measure?

If lightsaber can go through said HEavy Blast door, which stands up to blaster fire from Droidekas, which can be proven to defeat drone shields, then it stands to reason Lightsabers would be more effective than a shield

There is no queen on a run-of-the-mill cube. And I already conceded that individual drones could be tossed around. Too bad there are thousands of them.

I said "A queen or wherever Vader's force sense lead him, I was merely giving Vader some sort of Objective on the cube which has been undefined. As for there being THousands of borg, its not like those Borg can all crowd nto the same corridor at once, what you percieve as one large battle is actually a thousand smaller battles that Vader will win every time.

The lightsabre is not a kinetic weapon. It's an energy weapon with a massless blade (canonically stated according to YT300000). Hence no momentum at all.

then why is it when two lightsabers strike each other they act as actual swords, notices how when a lightsaber weilder uses the saber, and strikes a solid object, his reaction is as if he was using a metal blade. If a drone can adapt to the energy of a lightsbaer (which is probably impossible) then a saber strike is going to do something, since it cannot just simply pass through the borg or at the shield.

The Borg may not even have what Vader would sense as a mind. I'll not even guess at this one.

Isnt that the same sort of speculation I just put out? Get over yourself.

[Metrion Cascade]

Metrion Cascade, you have been called. You made the claim that Borg ships have adapted to pure energy on a non frequency basis. Prove this.

Want a chuckle? Not only do I think they adapt to pure energy, but I think it's the ONLY thing Borg have any defense against. Okay. Here's my argument for Borg adapting based on phase modulation instead of frequency modulation. It's made possible by the fact that the modulations the Borg were adapting to were never called frequencies.

Incoming transporters, weapons, and tractor beams matched to a ship's shield frequency are always made MORE effective by the match (ask the E-D or Captain Maxwell). Why would the same match in frequencies make phasers and torpedoes LESS effective against the Borg? It wouldn't. But a match in phase would.

And we still don't know if a lightsabre can be stopped by forcefields in the SW universe. If it can't be, and SW forcefields are stronger than drone forcefields, Vader can kill drones. He still can't survive, as the cube needs those drones simply to stay in one piece, but he would be able to destroy it.

And here is a little FYI. Even with adaption, Borg ships are not invulnerable. It just makes their shielding much more effective.

People have been throwing me this strawman all night. I never said adaptation makes Borg invulnerable. I said it gives them SOME protection which can then be overcome. Not only that, but Borg are so stupid that they don't even RAISE their shields until they've already sustained a hit. I'm saying the Borg won't defend against anything they haven't already been hit by. And even then the protection can be penetrated.

Drones have a limited endurance against enemy fire. We know in a theoretical sense they can withstand into the low MJ range. This is far and above most weapons. The question is, is this above the output of a light sabre?

Of course, drone shields must be limited. The problem is that the only upper limit we have yet is that they must be weaker than cube shields.

Well do we have any examples we can use to gauge the power behind a light sabre? There have been no statements on power output nor longevity. We know the power cores do eventualy get used up and we've seen it happen at least one time. So just how much can a sabre put out?

Lets take a slightly different track. Most SW ships are designed to defend against energy bassed attacks. This is by and far the most common ship to ship weapon system. Shields and armor are both opimized against energy. This is why relatively low KT strikes on armor do considerably more damage. What this means is SW ships are optimized primarily for energy.

I bet you see where I'm going here. In the Thrawn Triology Luke used his sabre to carve through the hull of an Imperial Shuttle. We know Imperial Shuttles can take a fair beating from fighter level weapons which are rated in the KT range. This means that sabres can cut through armor in the KT rating. Whatever a sabre does, it has enough absolute power contained to defeat armor of a massive level.

Borg shields are going to be worthless against sabres. Their only hope would be to send a feedback loop into the sabre and we already know Borg shields opperate on a different level.

But can Borg drones withstand KT level weapons? We've never seen them destroyed by energy weapons. Their cubes, yes. But the drones' shields wouldn't factor in at all in an explosion (they have no kinetic shields). So we still only have an upper limit of drone shields<cube shields.

And no feedback loops. It's technobabble, and the Borg aren't that innovative.

[Raven]

10 MJ phase pistol > Borg

[Howedar]

[quote="Metrion Cascade"]No, it doesn't. "Heavy blast door" isn't a value. What does it take to get through that door in some actual unit of measure?[quote]The Tradefed door was at least 1.5m deep to prevent the saber from poking through. The saber was in the door about 10 seconds. It heated the door (we'll assume iron to be conservative) up to being yellow, which makes it about 800 degrees C. The heated area was perhaps 70cm in diameter. This makes a change in temperature of about 780 degrees, through about 0.6 cubic meters of iron. About 4500kg worth. So, since we know the specific heat of iron, we can calculate that the saber put in a low-end of 1.6 GJ (recall that the iron is also giving off energy, so this is low-end). Over ten seconds, thats 0.16GW.

[Alyeska]

Want a chuckle? Not only do I think they adapt to pure energy, but I think it's the ONLY thing Borg have any defense against. Okay. Here's my argument for Borg adapting based on phase modulation instead of frequency modulation. It's made possible by the fact that the modulations the Borg were adapting to were never called frequencies.

Incoming transporters, weapons, and tractor beams matched to a ship's shield frequency are always made MORE effective by the match (ask the E-D or Captain Maxwell). Why would the same match in frequencies make phasers and torpedoes LESS effective against the Borg? It wouldn't. But a match in phase would.

And we still don't know if a lightsabre can be stopped by forcefields in the SW universe. If it can't be, and SW forcefields are stronger than drone forcefields, Vader can kill drones. He still can't survive, as the cube needs those drones simply to stay in one piece, but he would be able to destroy it.

Red herring. You are taking the exact wording out of context and basing your entire argument off of it.

And here is a little FYI. Even with adaption, Borg ships are not invulnerable. It just makes their shielding much more effective.

People have been throwing me this strawman all night. I never said adaptation makes Borg invulnerable. I said it gives them SOME protection which can then be overcome. Not only that, but Borg are so stupid that they don't even RAISE their shields until they've already sustained a hit. I'm saying the Borg won't defend against anything they haven't already been hit by. And even then the protection can be penetrated.

Of course, drone shields must be limited. The problem is that the only upper limit we have yet is that they must be weaker than cube shields.

Actually, no. Thanks to ENT we begin to gauge the level of firepower Drones can take. At 10 MJ it takes a considerable number of shots before they can eventualy adapt to the weapon. This is compared to the much lower numbers of the weaker weapons. This means any weapon that can put out singificantly higher then 10 MJ will break the theoretical threshold of a drone.

But can Borg drones withstand KT level weapons? We've never seen them destroyed by energy weapons. Their cubes, yes. But the drones' shields wouldn't factor in at all in an explosion (they have no kinetic shields). So we still only have an upper limit of drone shields<cube shields.

And no feedback loops. It's technobabble, and the Borg aren't that innovative.

Actually we have seen them destroyed by energy weapons. Phase pistols are very much energy weapons. 10 MJ shots did them in nicely. Can a drone survive KT level? No they can not. Logic tells us their shield capabilities are far below that of their ships. Infact we know that internal system failures are enough to kill drones and those are going to be much less powerful then even KT range in terms of firepower. Given the available knowledge it is logical to assume a Sabre has more then enough firepower to slice right through drone and shield.