Minimum Imperial force to destroy Borg Collective?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-01-12 07:29am

If the OP means 'kill every last borg', then its madness. Kill heaps of borg planets and ships, and just like in Scorpion, they'll keep coming. Against S8472, they sent available ships in piecemeal. I use this precedent to suggest that they'll do the same against an Imperial vessel, for the same reasons, ie, unique, powerful, threat etc.

Against S8472, did they pull hundreds or thousands of cubes to planets? Or did they march lemming-like into unwinnable battles? I imagine their inital attack was in some force (hundreds or thousands) but the smaller fleets used in the defensive battles suggests that was an unusual concentration.

Noones saying a single Imperial ship could destroy the whole collective in one battle; but a larger ship (Executor, Eclipse) could easily destroy smaller fleets and kill planets. Problem is, after destroying their most popuous planets and their Unimatrices, tracking the rest down would be a bastard... but their threat is gone.

Andras · Post by **Andras** » 2004-01-12 10:58am

1 World Devestator, modified to be able to build more WDs and also has the schematics for tactical superlasers

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-01-12 11:03am

Stark wrote:If the OP means 'kill every last borg', then its madness. Kill heaps of borg planets and ships, and just like in Scorpion, they'll keep coming. Against S8472, they sent available ships in piecemeal. I use this precedent to suggest that they'll do the same against an Imperial vessel, for the same reasons, ie, unique, powerful, threat etc.

Against S8472, did they pull hundreds or thousands of cubes to planets?

Yes. They mustered at least 312 cubes against Species 8472 to guard just eight planets. And this was at a point where the Borg considered themselves on the verge of defeat(so much so that they'd bargain with a Federation ship), which would easily suggest that their total fleet strength is heavily depleted.

Or did they march lemming-like into unwinnable battles?

No.

I imagine their inital attack was in some force (hundreds or thousands) but the smaller fleets used in the defensive battles suggests that was an unusual concentration.

Noones saying a single Imperial ship could destroy the whole collective in one battle; but a larger ship (Executor, Eclipse) could easily destroy smaller fleets and kill planets. Problem is, after destroying their most popuous planets and their Unimatrices, tracking the rest down would be a bastard... but their threat is gone.

A single Borg cube is a threat to the entire Federation. Two would undoubtedly conquer it relatively easily. By Imperial standards, the threat would be non existent, theoritically even before they fired one shot. So in order to say the threat is gone, one needs to define what constitutes a threat.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2004-01-12 07:26pm

Robert Walper wrote:No, she was shocked at seeing one, and her future self not telling her about it. How, exactly, are you interpreting her shock as evidence the Borg only control one hub?

I was unaware a person displaying "shock" can determine what a enemy has or is capable of.

It always seemed to me that she was shocked that the Borg have a hub. But as I put in the sentence right after, it might not be.

It is possible that she's shocked that there's a hub right where they are.
Obviously. And you're exaggerating her reaction. "Shock" is not the word I'd use to describe her reaction. Very worried and slightly awed would be a better description IMO.

Meh, I haven't seen the episode in a while.

At any rate, if the Borg could make hubs, why did they only build 6? Why not more?
Resources, time, recovering from a massive war with Species 8472. Don't you think those would be good reasons?

What's with this No Limits Fallacy, anyhow? If they "only" have 6, maybe they can't build any more. Or maybe they don't need anymore.

*Spanks forehead* Doh!!

This just occured to me. If the Borg had a track on that hub leading to Earth, why the hell didn't they use it? Why send 1 cube through sloww (relatively) transwarp when they can get dozens there in a few minutes, passing any defensive fleets, and catching the Feddies completely off-guard. There must be a reason. I mean, the Borg can't be that stupid. Can they?

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2004-01-12 07:49pm

Argument conceeded. I just found the script:

JANEWAY
What is it?
SEVEN
It's a Borg Transwarp Hub.

JANEWAY
Why didn't you tell us about them before?

SEVEN
There are only 6 in the entire Galaxy.
The odds of you coming across one was infinitesimal.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-01-12 08:00pm

YT300000 wrote:This just occured to me. If the Borg had a track on that hub leading to Earth, why the hell didn't they use it?

What makes you think it was always there? They could have recently created the conduit there, with the last cube having finished determining the best location for it.

This could be an indication the Borg were preparing for a much swifter assualt on Earth, one in which they'd have relatively little warning.

Why send 1 cube through sloww (relatively) transwarp when they can get dozens there in a few minutes, passing any defensive fleets, and catching the Feddies completely off-guard.

They in all likelyhood were preparing to do just that.

There must be a reason. I mean, the Borg can't be that stupid. Can they?

You're forgetting they were still recovering from a massive war with Species 8472 that cost them thousands of vessels and hundreds of worlds. Throw in Voyager's little pain in the ass "Borg revolt" involving Unimatrix Zero, and they could have been far too busy trying to rebuild and destroy the revolt.

Additionally, there's no reason to assume the conduit was there at all times. The best conclusion I've reached is that the cube in "First Contact" gathered enough information, combined with the information from the cube in "Best of Both Worlds", to give the Collective the right coodinates for creating said conduit.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2004-01-12 10:03pm

The best conclusion I've reached is that the cube in "First Contact" gathered enough information, combined with the information from the cube in "Best of Both Worlds", to give the Collective the right coodinates for creating said conduit.

That's silly. It's like sending a scout in a tank, not to mention the absurdity of sending a single cube that could penetrate Federation defenses all the way to Earth instead of two that would ensure success. They screwed up twice and decided to try it faster.

Worlds Spanner · Post by **Worlds Spanner** » 2004-01-12 11:12pm

You're looking for consistency between the glory days of NextGen and the pathetic ending of Voy. I know that this website is about trying to do that, but it's just not possible.

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-01-13 05:27am

Considering the several estrategical factors involved and that an Eclipse or another superweapon would be overkill and the purpose of this thread is effectively erasing the borg with as few forces as posible...
Two or three hundreds of Star Destroyers, probably.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2004-01-16 02:33pm

Soontir C'boath wrote:Earth years right?
365 days a year. Times 3 years is 1095 days. The Death Star has to take a whole day to recharge the superlaser*perhaps less due to shieldless planets* So that's 1095 planets destroyed in that span plus the countless installations and starships destroyed by TLs and planets slagged by BDZs that the DS can ensue on the Borg.~Jason

The original Death Star could do it far more rapidly if they simply use the HTLs on its surface to BDZ planets, rather than destroy them outright. No need to waste the superlaser for unshielded planets. And even if they are shielded, they surely aren't a match for the firepower of an entire DS covered with HTLs. I'm not even sure if a planetary shield would be a match for a single ISD. Since the Empire could bring down any SW planetary shield with a fleet of ISDs, but within a long time period (unless there is a torpedo sphere present), I don't think it would take the Empire too long to deal with Borg planetary shields, especially since the DS surely has more HTLs than a fleet of ISDs.

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2004-01-16 03:07pm

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:*snip*

Did you read my last sentence?~Jason

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2004-01-16 03:48pm

...d'oh! How did I miss that?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-01-17 08:19pm

Soontir C'boath wrote:Earth years right?
365 days a year. Times 3 years is 1095 days. The Death Star has to take a whole day to recharge the superlaser*perhaps less due to shieldless planets* So that's 1095 planets destroyed in that span plus the countless installations and starships destroyed by TLs and planets slagged by BDZs that the DS can ensue on the Borg.~Jason

1 day for a full power shot (at 1e38 joules, as per Alderaan's destruction.) This results in a "standard" output 1e33 watts, more than sufficient to destroy a single planet a hundred thousand times over.

Of course, I'm not sure whether or not this means they'd be able to refire the Death Star once per second (I dont think so, I think the lower limit was a few minutes for the lowest-powered discharged, which IIRC were enough to crack/shatter the crust of a planet - EGW&T I believe.) - not that that would neccesarily be an issue (with having to travel between systems and planets - besides there is absolutely no way in hell the Borg could conceivably stop the Death Star.)

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-01-17 08:24pm

YT300000 wrote:Remember, 1 ISD can do a full BDZ in an hour.

More like under 10-15 minutes, and thats going by half the armament of an Acclamator

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2004-01-17 08:51pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
YT300000 wrote:Remember, 1 ISD can do a full BDZ in an hour.
More like under 10-15 minutes, and thats going by half the armament of an Acclamator

Really? Can I get the source of that (calcs, quotes, etc.). I was under the impression that the ICS said 1 hour.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-01-19 05:18pm

I can not remeber what I was reading but I recall something about an ISD being able to kill a couple million people in 1-2 minutes using BDZ.

Lord Jax · Post by **Lord Jax** » 2004-01-25 06:25pm

A. Executor thing wouldnt work in the timeline
B. The Death Star either
C. If i wa sthe borg and worest came to worest it would take along time to kill me since i would be transwarping left and right and hyperspace is slower that a transwarp conduit

Lord Jax · Post by **Lord Jax** » 2004-01-25 06:26pm

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-01-25 06:27pm

Lord Jax wrote:A. Executor thing wouldnt work in the timeline
B. The Death Star either
C. If i wa sthe borg and worest came to worest it would take along time to kill me since i would be transwarping left and right and hyperspace is slower that a transwarp conduit

The Empire is smart enough to destroy the hubs right off the bat. And then the Borg are screwed, we all know borg ships would be destroyed by the overwhelming Imperial forces and they would not be able to run away(assuming the Borg would be smart enough to try and run).

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-01-25 06:33pm

Techno_Union wrote:I can not remeber what I was reading but I recall something about an ISD being able to kill a couple million people in 1-2 minutes using BDZ.

Well duh. Landing a turbolaser barrage in Manhattan would cause far more in a few seconds. Just have to find a concentrated population area.

Transwarp drives are faster than hyperspace? What?

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-01-25 07:19pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
Techno_Union wrote:I can not remeber what I was reading but I recall something about an ISD being able to kill a couple million people in 1-2 minutes using BDZ.
Well duh. Landing a turbolaser barrage in Manhattan would cause far more in a few seconds. Just have to find a concentrated population area.

Transwarp drives are faster than hyperspace? What?

Well if the people are concentrated then ya it would be easy. And Jax was saying that a transwarp conduit is faster then hyperspace, which I believe is correct, but regular transwarp drive is slower than hyperdrive.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2004-01-26 03:29pm

Techno_Union wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:
Techno_Union wrote:I can not remeber what I was reading but I recall something about an ISD being able to kill a couple million people in 1-2 minutes using BDZ.
Well duh. Landing a turbolaser barrage in Manhattan would cause far more in a few seconds. Just have to find a concentrated population area.

Transwarp drives are faster than hyperspace? What?
Well if the people are concentrated then ya it would be easy. And Jax was saying that a transwarp conduit is faster then hyperspace, which I believe is correct, but regular transwarp drive is slower than hyperdrive.

Uh... a transwarp conduit is normal transwarp. I believe you are referring to a transwarp hub, which has only one entrance point, and there are only 6 (5, as of Endgame) that the Borg control.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2004-01-26 03:38pm

Were I placed in charge of this I take three Task Force's out and go grid by grid working my way through Borg territory planet by planet

Were I the vindictive sort I would say Slag each and every planet in a Box called Borg Terrirtory(To be on the safe side)

Acutal scratch that, I'll add a fourth Task Force to do cleanups after BDZ a planet, Not to acutal cleanup but to make sure everything is good and gone

Each Task-Force should contain a minium of Three Star Destroyer's, each with at least a pair of Victory's escourting it plus a fifth SD that's been recon'ed to a Support ship
I could let the SD off without the Victory class escout or bump it down to Destroyer's or Frigit's but I don't want to lose and ships and I want BDZ to be carried out as fast as possible and the Victory's help speed up that proccess somewhat as well as being able to serve as dandy support ships(Cut em down to a single squadren and take out the Troops and jam the remainder with supplies)

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-01-26 04:34pm

YT300000 wrote:
Techno_Union wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote: Well duh. Landing a turbolaser barrage in Manhattan would cause far more in a few seconds. Just have to find a concentrated population area.

Transwarp drives are faster than hyperspace? What?
Well if the people are concentrated then ya it would be easy. And Jax was saying that a transwarp conduit is faster then hyperspace, which I believe is correct, but regular transwarp drive is slower than hyperdrive.
Uh... a transwarp conduit is normal transwarp. I believe you are referring to a transwarp hub, which has only one entrance point, and there are only 6 (5, as of Endgame) that the Borg control.

I meant the hubs but I did not know that regular conduits such as the one in "Decent", were just as fast as regular transwarp.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-01-31 10:03pm

YT300000 wrote:
Techno_Union wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote: Well duh. Landing a turbolaser barrage in Manhattan would cause far more in a few seconds. Just have to find a concentrated population area.

Transwarp drives are faster than hyperspace? What?
Well if the people are concentrated then ya it would be easy. And Jax was saying that a transwarp conduit is faster then hyperspace, which I believe is correct, but regular transwarp drive is slower than hyperdrive.
Uh... a transwarp conduit is normal transwarp. I believe you are referring to a transwarp hub, which has only one entrance point, and there are only 6 (5, as of Endgame) that the Borg control.

I just watched Decent and the Enterprise entered a transwarp conduit which propelled them 65 light years in a few seconds (possible a minute).