How to defeat an ISD with Starfleet Resources

[DaveJB]

In the case of working transporters:
Beam the crew of the ISD out(I would beam them into vacuum of space, although I think the Federation would prefer holding cells) . I always thought it was funny when they beamed their own men in and not the crew of the hostile ships out.

Your scenario is dependant upon the following conditions being true:

• 1. Your ship being able to sneak up on the ISD without being shredded at the molecular level.
  2. The transporters being able to penetrate the shields and heavy armour.
  3. The ISD's crewmen not being bothered that their comrades are being transported off the ship.
  4. The whole operation being able to proceed uninterrupted for... well. An ISD's compliment is roughly 35,000. The transporters on a GCS can transport (IIRC) 6 people in 5 seconds, and there are (IIRC) three main transporter rooms on the ship, giving a figure of 18 people transported every 5 seconds (3.6 people per second on average). 35000/3.6 = 9722 seconds, giving us a grand total of 2.7 hours. Now, my figures are probably out somewhat (it's 1AM over here), but it should give you an idea of the timescale we're dealing with here.
  
  Better luck next time!

[Alyeska]

In the case of working transporters:
Beam the crew of the ISD out(I would beam them into vacuum of space, although I think the Federation would prefer holding cells) . I always thought it was funny when they beamed their own men in and not the crew of the hostile ships out.

Your scenario is dependant upon the following conditions being true:

• 1. Your ship being able to sneak up on the ISD without being shredded at the molecular level.
  2. The transporters being able to penetrate the shields and heavy armour.
  3. The ISD's crewmen not being bothered that their comrades are being transported off the ship.
  4. The whole operation being able to proceed uninterrupted for... well. An ISD's compliment is roughly 35,000. The transporters on a GCS can transport (IIRC) 6 people in 5 seconds, and there are (IIRC) three main transporter rooms on the ship, giving a figure of 18 people transported every 5 seconds (3.6 people per second on average). 35000/3.6 = 9722 seconds, giving us a grand total of 2.7 hours. Now, my figures are probably out somewhat (it's 1AM over here), but it should give you an idea of the timescale we're dealing with here.
  
  Better luck next time!

And then you factor in a thousand ships, or ships modified with more transporters...

[Robert Walper]

In the case of working transporters:
Beam the crew of the ISD out(I would beam them into vacuum of space, although I think the Federation would prefer holding cells) . I always thought it was funny when they beamed their own men in and not the crew of the hostile ships out.

Your scenario is dependant upon the following conditions being true:

1. Your ship being able to sneak up on the ISD without being shredded at the molecular level.

If even a tenth of the fleet can utilize cloaking devices, they may very well easily sneak up on this single ISD. Last time I checked, a lone ISD lacks the ability to detect cloaked vessels. And according to the OP, they have access to cloaking devices, although how many altogether is uncertain.

2. The transporters being able to penetrate the shields and heavy armour.

However, since these Federation ships are sneaking up on the ISD presumeably undetected, why does it have it's shields raised? And noteably, in STVOY "Think Tank", Voyager didn't have any trouble beaming Seven of Nine off the Think Tank vessel despite it's hull have a neutronium composite.

3. The ISD's crewmen not being bothered that their comrades are being transported off the ship.

They could very well not have enough time to react.

4. The whole operation being able to proceed uninterrupted for... well. An ISD's compliment is roughly 35,000. The transporters on a GCS can transport (IIRC) 6 people in 5 seconds, and there are (IIRC) three main transporter rooms on the ship, giving a figure of 18 people transported every 5 seconds (3.6 people per second on average). 35000/3.6 = 9722 seconds, giving us a grand total of 2.7 hours. Now, my figures are probably out somewhat (it's 1AM over here), but it should give you an idea of the timescale we're dealing with here.

Unfortunately, you figures rely upon a single starship, when the Federation side has been given a thousand. Even a tenth of that fleet would reduce that time scale by magnitudes.

[Robert Walper]

In the case of working transporters:
Beam the crew of the ISD out(I would beam them into vacuum of space, although I think the Federation would prefer holding cells) . I always thought it was funny when they beamed their own men in and not the crew of the hostile ships out.

Your scenario is dependant upon the following conditions being true:

• 1. Your ship being able to sneak up on the ISD without being shredded at the molecular level.
  2. The transporters being able to penetrate the shields and heavy armour.
  3. The ISD's crewmen not being bothered that their comrades are being transported off the ship.
  4. The whole operation being able to proceed uninterrupted for... well. An ISD's compliment is roughly 35,000. The transporters on a GCS can transport (IIRC) 6 people in 5 seconds, and there are (IIRC) three main transporter rooms on the ship, giving a figure of 18 people transported every 5 seconds (3.6 people per second on average). 35000/3.6 = 9722 seconds, giving us a grand total of 2.7 hours. Now, my figures are probably out somewhat (it's 1AM over here), but it should give you an idea of the timescale we're dealing with here.
  
  Better luck next time!

And then you factor in a thousand ships, or ships modified with more transporters...

We should note that a single rusty old Klingon Bird of Prey can transport 400 tons in a single beam. Obviously transporters can beam very large masses at once. The limited number of Starfleet personnel witnessed beaming at any one time could easily be attributed to safety reasons(ie: only so many people can be stored in the transporter buffer, etc). Since the safety of the Imperials will not be a concern, they may no longer have the limitation others are attempting to assert. Even if conceeding said limitation, there's still an entire fleet(a thousand) of Federation ships with transporters ready, not one.

[nightmare]

In the case of working transporters:
Beam the crew of the ISD out(I would beam them into vacuum of space, although I think the Federation would prefer holding cells) . I always thought it was funny when they beamed their own men in and not the crew of the hostile ships out.

There's a pretty good reason - they can't. Numerous times do we see that it is far easier to beam something in than it is to beam something out.

They have trouble locking onto any person without a combadge, or if the other ship isn't in friendly mode with the captain on the main viewer communicating. It's not impossible, but all such instances are treated as special occasions. Even on their own ship the kids had to give the Ferengi something to they could lock on to before they could transport the Ferengi intruders to the brig (I don't recall the ep name). Or when Riker was down on a planet, surveying it. Without his combadge, they had no idea where he was and couldn't get him out. I'm sure you can find plenty of other examples.

One might speculate if this is a restriction mainly when transporting people, for safety reasons. But then you have to assume that this is irrevocably built into the system since they aren't using it to beam out the enemy.

[nightmare]

Clarification: It's easier to beam something in than out as long as the target doesn't have something to lock on to. If they do, the situation seem to be reversed.

[Darth Wong]

We should note that a single rusty old Klingon Bird of Prey can transport 400 tons in a single beam.

A single contiguous block of material, not behind any kind of heavy-metal armour. Totally irrelevant to a mass human transport operation through ISD armour.

Obviously transporters can beam very large masses at once. The limited number of Starfleet personnel witnessed beaming at any one time could easily be attributed to safety reasons(ie: only so many people can be stored in the transporter buffer, etc). Since the safety of the Imperials will not be a concern, they may no longer have the limitation others are attempting to assert.

Why do you keep assuming it's a safety limitation? Hand phasers don't even work in the presence of extreme low-level radiation, remember? Or did you not watch ST4? It's quite obvious that any kind of subspace-related technology is not robust, and its function is quite easily disrupted. They never say it's a safety limitation; they just say they can't do it. And given the number of times they use transporters on heavily damaged ships with sparks shooting out of every console and rather obviously compromised system function, I'd say that you're pulling this "procedural safety concern" bullshit out of your ass.

Even if conceeding said limitation, there's still an entire fleet(a thousand) of Federation ships with transporters ready, not one.

A thousand transporters which can't get through the armour and/or interference are no more useful than one transporter which can't get through the armour and/or interference.

[Knife]

Why do you want to capture the ISD?

Do you want it to turn it into a Federation ISD?

Or

Do you want to analyse it to get some tech out of it?

Or

Both?

I really don't think there is much of a chance of (even if you capture it) crewing it to make it fight on your side. And even if you do, what will it do for you against its numerous other brethern?

If you just want to reverse engineer it, I think an out right snatch and grab mission might to be wastfull on men and resourses. You'd probably be better off trying to infiltrate some benign istallation some where and steal tech data via espionage.

[Ender]

You know, if they didn't have to capture the damn thing this would be far easier. I give good odds that over a prolonged war in any vs debate one side can kill at least one of the other sides ships through some combination of cunning, skill, and dumb luck.

[Rogue 9]

Yeah. Most likely a TIE fighter.

[Invader ZIm]

The most efficent resolution to the mission would be to have the crew of the ISD hand the ship over of their own free will.

Just to brainstorm some ideas - perhaps one of the following could be setup:

1. Use a WMD to threaten a civilian population under Imperial control and demand an ISD be handed over.

2. Get the ISD'd officer's to defect to the Federations' side.

3. Engineer a mutany on the ISD.

4. Release some contaminant that forces a full or partial evacuation.

Option 1 is risky. But it could work if the Feds could put the Empire in a position of giving up 1 ISD (1 of 250,000 or so) or something that is much more valuable to them. In that situation the Empire might just give up 1 ISD with the assumption that it's not going to do the Federation much good anyway. But ultimately there are too many variables that need to be worked out before such a plan could succeed. Can the Feds run an ISD? Will some Imperials be required to help? Just what is a skeleton crew on an ISD? Where do you take it once you have it? Can the Feds actually use the WMD if the Imperials call their bluf? ect, ect...

Option 2 and 3 are the best. If the ISD's officers or crew can be truned to the Fed's side then they will provide all the nessesary know-how to run the ship. How the Fed's get their sympathies is another question.

Option 4: Call this the "Hunt For Red October" solution. Dont ask me how it gets accomplished as there arent enough specifics given in the setup. I assume it would require that their is some danerous substance the Fed's could introduce on to the ISD and force an evacuation. Or perhaps the ISD has some toxic material it uses in some capacity that when released will trigger the crew to leave. Problem with this is it requires the Fed's to have detailed information about the ISD's workings and identify something they can exploit. This is true even if the Fed's introduce something like a virus, they need to know how to get it to spread in such a way as to make large parts of the ship unihabitable in a very short peiod of time. It seems to me you would need an very extensive amount of intelligence and mission planning to make this option work.

Back to the orginal question of the thread:
Note that none of these options depend on a fleet of starships but rather on human assets. If I was the Admiral in charge I would judge the risk of exposing an entire fleet of starships inorder to capture 1 ISD to be exessive. I would persue one or more of the above options.

[Ender]

Yeah. Most likely a TIE fighter.

Just for the record, am I the only one completely fed up with these cocky little kids who come bouncing in years after the debate is set to rest and talk shit like this? Seriously, aside from the fact that it shows zero respect for the opponents who, for the most part, deserve it, it shows a lack of understanding fo the technology, and a lack of in depth thinking, and zero appreciation for those of us who had to fight the good fight against people like Bobby, rabid fivers, Omnicron theta, etc.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

You're not the only one, Ender.

[Thunderfire]

Join the Rebellion if this is a valid answer. It can't be done without someone who is familiar with imperial technology.

[Sarevok]

Combining Rebel technology with Federation technology could produce some interesting hybrid weapons.

[NecronLord]

1. Use a WMD to threaten a civilian population under Imperial control and demand an ISD be handed over.

Are you brain dead?

The empire would say "fuckit" and use it as an excuse to launch a retaliatory Base Delta Zero on Earth.

[Rogue 9]

Yeah. Most likely a TIE fighter.

Just for the record, am I the only one completely fed up with these cocky little kids who come bouncing in years after the debate is set to rest and talk shit like this? Seriously, aside from the fact that it shows zero respect for the opponents who, for the most part, deserve it, it shows a lack of understanding fo the technology, and a lack of in depth thinking, and zero appreciation for those of us who had to fight the good fight against people like Bobby, rabid fivers, Omnicron theta, etc.

Okay, okay, I was over the line. I know the Federation's not that helpless. *Grumbles about how test just can't carry tone.*

[Patrick Degan]

The most efficent resolution to the mission would be to have the crew of the ISD hand the ship over of their own free will.

Just to brainstorm some ideas - perhaps one of the following could be setup:

1. Use a WMD to threaten a civilian population under Imperial control and demand an ISD be handed over.

Why should the Imperials care if Federationists devestate a Federation world under Imperial occupation? Furthermore, an ISD can devestate a Federation world without even having to employ the requisite firepower for a full BDZ op. A five minute bombardment with the heavy turbolasers would unleash sufficent energy to totally depopulate the target world, and the Imperials would do that upon receipt of a Federationist terror threat simply to make a point.

2. Get the ISD's officer's to defect to the Federation's side.

And exactly what do the fugitive remnants of a vanquished nation have to offer to an officer of the victorious conquering power to induce a defection?

3. Engineer a mutiny on the ISD.

Why should a highly disciplined, professional military force in a high state of morale and training entertain the idea of a mutiny? How do agitators get on board, infiltrate the crew, and avoid ship's security in the process to carry out this project?

4. Release some contaminant that forces a full or partial evacuation.

And how is this contaminant smuggled on board? And how does it violate the laws of physics or biology to achieve swift shipwide contamination? How does it defeat the ship's own compartmentalisation procedures which can act far faster than any biological, chemical, or radiological agent can possibly spread through such a large internal volume as contained in a stardestroyer? How does this affect Imperial squaddies wearing NBC-sealed body armour, nevermind wardroids?

[Rogue 9]

Edit to above post: *Grumbles about how text just can't carry tone.*

[Invader ZIm]

1. Use a WMD to threaten a civilian population under Imperial control and demand an ISD be handed over.

Are you brain dead?

The empire would say "fuckit" and use it as an excuse to launch a retaliatory Base Delta Zero on Earth.

No.

You will notice I used the word "threaten" and not the word "attack". Different verbs have different meanings.

The ultimate goal of that option was not to obliterate a Imperial civilians. Its an assuption that there is something the Empire values more highly than 1 ISD. Face it the Empire could replace 1 ISD and still have 249,999 of them left. A Imperial word would be another matter altogether.

Besides in the shape the Federation is in according to this thread - a BDZ of Earth seems likely to have already happened.

[Invader ZIm]

[Why should the Imperials care if Federationists devestate a Federation world under Imperial occupation? Furthermore, an ISD can devestate a Federation world without even having to employ the requisite firepower for a full BDZ op. A five minute bombardment with the heavy turbolasers would unleash sufficent energy to totally depopulate the target world, and the Imperials would do that upon receipt of a Federationist terror threat simply to make a point.

Is this a presupposition that there isnt anything of higher value to the Empire than a single ISD?

And exactly what do the fugitive remnants of a vanquished nation have to offer to an officer of the victorious conquering power to induce a defection?

I dont nessesarillay think that they will. But its a more productive approach that expending 1000 of the last Federation starships in a useless raid to capture a single ISD.

Why should a highly disciplined, professional military force in a high state of morale and training entertain the idea of a mutiny? How do agitators get on board, infiltrate the crew, and avoid ship's security in the process to carry out this project?

Again they might well not. But wouldnt this be more efficent than wasting the few resources you have under your command in a hopeless operation?

And how is this contaminant smuggled on board? And how does it violate the laws of physics or biology to achieve swift shipwide contamination? How does it defeat the ship's own compartmentalisation procedures which can act far faster than any biological, chemical, or radiological agent can possibly spread through such a large internal volume as contained in a stardestroyer? How does this affect Imperial squaddies wearing NBC-sealed body armour, nevermind wardroids?

If you are looking for a "bulletproof" method by which the Federation could capture a single ISD then look elsewhere. I outlined 4 options which in my opinion had a much higher success rate than throwing fleet assets into the fire.

If you do not agree - then by all means, you have the floor.

[Ghost Rider]

Why should the Imperials care if Federationists devestate a Federation world under Imperial occupation? Furthermore, an ISD can devestate a Federation world without even having to employ the requisite firepower for a full BDZ op. A five minute bombardment with the heavy turbolasers would unleash sufficent energy to totally depopulate the target world, and the Imperials would do that upon receipt of a Federationist terror threat simply to make a point.

Is this a presupposition that there isnt anything of higher value to the Empire than a single ISD?

Provide a reason to the contrary.

The Empire doesn't have top do shit for their conquered for, if they want to...they can let every single planet devolve to a state of total anarcy just for shits and giggles.

And exactly what do the fugitive remnants of a vanquished nation have to offer to an officer of the victorious conquering power to induce a defection?

I dont nessesarillay think that they will. But its a more productive approach that expending 1000 of the last Federation starships in a useless raid to capture a single ISD.

But what do they offer?

Sure it might be a better alternative if the situation was allowing such. But at this point the Federation if on it's last limbs, not at full capacity and certainly not a in a position to acquiese any possible rogue elements.

Why should a highly disciplined, professional military force in a high state of morale and training entertain the idea of a mutiny? How do agitators get on board, infiltrate the crew, and avoid ship's security in the process to carry out this project?

Again they might well not. But wouldnt this be more efficent than wasting the few resources you have under your command in a hopeless operation?

Only if you had something to convince them with.

I've defeated your country, all you have a is a scrapped together slapdashed army.

Why the fuck should I join you?

And how is this contaminant smuggled on board? And how does it violate the laws of physics or biology to achieve swift shipwide contamination? How does it defeat the ship's own compartmentalisation procedures which can act far faster than any biological, chemical, or radiological agent can possibly spread through such a large internal volume as contained in a stardestroyer? How does this affect Imperial squaddies wearing NBC-sealed body armour, nevermind wardroids?

If you are looking for a "bulletproof" method by which the Federation could capture a single ISD then look elsewhere. I outlined 4 options which in my opinion had a much higher success rate than throwing fleet assets into the fire.

If you do not agree - then by all means, you have the floor.

Two of them required you to be a superior position, the first required me(the Empire) to give a shit about my CONQUERED foe, and the last requires my men to sit there and take no heed of protocol.

[Invader ZIm]

Getting back to the point at hand:
The thread is to attempt to come up with options that a Federation Admiral could persue to capture and ISD. The task is hopeless with the fleet assests at hand. Being critical of the options is fine but this is the only option I can think of that does not end with the complete destruction of the remaining Fed assets.

If you can think of a course of action then lets hear it. Or is this thread pointless?

Two of them required you to be a superior position, the first required me(the Empire) to give a shit about my CONQUERED foe, and the last requires my men to sit there and take no heed of protocol.

As an aside:
Either the Empire is fighting a war of annilitation or one of conquest.
If the Empire didnt give a rat's-ass about the Federation then why bother to conquer then in the 1st place?

[Ghost Rider]

Two of them required you to be a superior position, the first required me(the Empire) to give a shit about my CONQUERED foe, and the last requires my men to sit there and take no heed of protocol.

As an aside:
Either the Empire is fighting a war of annilitation or one of conquest.
If the Empire didnt give a rat's-ass about the Federation then why bother to conquer then in the 1st place?

In the OP the Empire has destroyed more worlds then they have conquered.

So why should it bother them if the rogue elements of their opposition go "We're going to take down another!!!" ?

[Andras]

However, since these Federation ships are sneaking up on the ISD presumeably undetected, why does it have it's shields raised? And noteably, in STVOY "Think Tank", Voyager didn't have any trouble beaming Seven of Nine off the Think Tank vessel despite it's hull have a neutronium composite.

Particle shields are always on, energy shields are raised in combat. Given knowledge of the enemy having cloaking devices, I order my ships to have energy shields up 100% of the time and screw fuel consumption.