Don't know how to take this (Enterprise related)

[Alyeska]

Well Mike, thank you for this valuable information. Gives me more ammo that I can use when dealing with people who think anything from Gene that wasn't onscreen can be invalidated by Paramount claims (even then Paramount is using ENT to invalidate TOS). Much appreciated.

[Chris OFarrell]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the problem here that dumb and dumber (B&B) were given the authority and licences by Rodenbery himself? Its not like he was long dead THEN they started to make TNG sometime after and it can be decided that as he had no knowledge of it, it can be shown that his work is still supperior....but he started TNG and the post TOS era and then as he fell ill gave full authority over to B&B to contine the ST franchise?

OT: It makes you wonder what ST would have been like if B&B had not gotten their hands around it and GR had kept on going with it...Early TNG sure as hell had a different style to it then later TNG.

[Coyote]

You know, for a long time when I first started lurking this board, I thought "B&B" references were "Beavis & Butthead". I can see now that I was pretty much on the money.

(The next Trek series-- the Captain: a vegetarian trasngendered HIV-positive Black lesbian daughter of a Muslim father/Jewish mother navigates the aisles of the completely unarmed 'Enterprise-H' in her wheelchair while contemplating the difficulties of single parenthood after the death of her half-Vulcan/half-Klingon domestic partner in a transporter malfunction... )

[EmperorMing]

You know, for a long time when I first started lurking this board, I thought "B&B" references were "Beavis & Butthead". I can see now that I was pretty much on the money.

(The next Trek series-- the Captain: a vegetarian trasngendered HIV-positive Black lesbian daughter of a Muslim father/Jewish mother navigates the aisles of the completely unarmed 'Enterprise-H' in her wheelchair while contemplating the difficulties of single parenthood after the death of her half-Vulcan/half-Klingon domestic partner in a transporter malfunction... )

ROTFLMAOPIMP!!!!!!

Soooo B&B; pc and all.

[Parallax]

Bwa ha ha ha!
Someone give Coyote a reward for that one!

[The Yosemite Bear]

I second that notion.

[Stormbringer]

You know, for a long time when I first started lurking this board, I thought "B&B" references were "Beavis & Butthead". I can see now that I was pretty much on the money.

(The next Trek series-- the Captain: a vegetarian trasngendered HIV-positive Black lesbian daughter of a Muslim father/Jewish mother navigates the aisles of the completely unarmed 'Enterprise-H' in her wheelchair while contemplating the difficulties of single parenthood after the death of her half-Vulcan/half-Klingon domestic partner in a transporter malfunction... )

Don't them ideas dammit. That seems like exactly the kind of idea that they'd love.

Of course some trekkie would probably assasinate them for it but they'd probably try it.

[TOWNMNBS]

Too bad Enterprise IS cannon. B&B have said so and thus it is. I think what people fail to see is that TOS was bastardized from the orignal concept that Gene had. And because of network and cristain groups inrterfance, it turned out to be the worst.

Gene left Star Trek with the people that are best equiped to handle it future development that way fe and his wife would have wanted.


TJ

[Stormbringer]

Too bad Enterprise IS cannon. B&B have said so and thus it is. I think what people fail to see is that TOS was bastardized from the orignal concept that Gene had. And because of network and cristain groups inrterfance, it turned out to be the worst.

Gene left Star Trek with the people that are best equiped to handle it future development that way fe and his wife would have wanted.

We all know Enterprise is canon. (not cannon which is a big gun). We only wish it wasn't.

And I agree with you that TOS isn't really what Gene would have created had he been given a free hand. I think it would have turned out much more like the opening seasons of TNG.

Gene would bitchslap B&B for the fucked bastardization that they've done to his vision. Whether he left them in charge or not, they murdered his vision and are in the process of pissing all over it's grave.

[Slartibartfast]

And I agree with you that TOS isn't really what Gene would have created had he been given a free hand. I think it would have turned out much more like the opening seasons of TNG.

Would this be one of those rare instances where studio executives make decisions that actually make a show _better_ than the original concept? I mean Gene's original idea was crappy in a TNG way (he would have removed all weapons and stuff... in fact I think it was Paramount who forcefully inserted the Klingons there as a plot device for conflict. Gene would have had absolutely zero conflict in TOS)

[Cpt_Frank]

And I agree with you that TOS isn't really what Gene would have created had he been given a free hand. I think it would have turned out much more like the opening seasons of TNG.

Would this be one of those rare instances where studio executives make decisions that actually make a show _better_ than the original concept? I mean Gene's original idea was crappy in a TNG way (he would have removed all weapons and stuff... in fact I think it was Paramount who forcefully inserted the Klingons there as a plot device for conflict. Gene would have had absolutely zero conflict in TOS)

Yes. TOS was a great series, and the elements which Rodenberry didn't like there were forced in there by the producers etc, and those contributed a great deal to make the show good.
TNG was his original vision, like he also says in that interview in the DVD set of season 1. His vision sucked.

[Stormbringer]

And I agree with you that TOS isn't really what Gene would have created had he been given a free hand. I think it would have turned out much more like the opening seasons of TNG.

Would this be one of those rare instances where studio executives make decisions that actually make a show _better_ than the original concept? I mean Gene's original idea was crappy in a TNG way (he would have removed all weapons and stuff... in fact I think it was Paramount who forcefully inserted the Klingons there as a plot device for conflict. Gene would have had absolutely zero conflict in TOS)

I think this would indeed by one of those rare cases. Although back then the suits were often closer to the creative process themselves so they understood the show better. And that's the problem with utopian societies, they're boring as hell.

[Alyeska]

ENT might be canon, but TOS and early-mid TNG has greater standing then ENT because Gene was in control or helped guide it.

[Stormbringer]

ENT might be canon, but TOS and early-mid TNG has greater standing then ENT because Gene was in control or helped guide it.

Oh shit, here it comes.

I think at this point they would all be considered equally canon. Since Gene Rodenberry left the control to B&B then they now have the moral rights.

[Darth Wong]

ENT might be canon, but TOS and early-mid TNG has greater standing then ENT because Gene was in control or helped guide it.

Oh shit, here it comes.

I think at this point they would all be considered equally canon. Since Gene Rodenberry left the control to B&B then they now have the moral rights.

Yes and no. They would have moral rights over DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise. They would not have moral rights over TOS and TNG. So what we have is (drum roll please) ... two separate canon universes. The TOS/TNG Star Trek (Gene's Star Trek) and the DS9/Voyager/Enterprise Star Trek (B&B's Star Trek). Fans could either try to merge them into one (pretty much impossible after B&B's hack job), regard them as separate, or regard one as subordinate to the other.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

[dream]If that was true..... Perhaps they'd even bring ST back to life.... ST like it was before TNG....
Perhaps a pre-TOS series with these ships which have that ball head and whose name I always forget, or one about the Romulan-Earth war (even earlier).[/dream]

Daedalus. That wouldn't be a bad idea, but it'll never fly after the shit B&B have perpetrated. No one would watch, no matter how good it was. Not even the premiere.

[Evil Jerk]

[dream]If that was true..... Perhaps they'd even bring ST back to life.... ST like it was before TNG....
Perhaps a pre-TOS series with these ships which have that ball head and whose name I always forget, or one about the Romulan-Earth war (even earlier).[/dream]

Daedalus. That wouldn't be a bad idea, but it'll never fly after the shit B&B have perpetrated. No one would watch, no matter how good it was. Not even the premiere.

First they'd need to cancel Enterprise (preferably burning everything related to it.. including B&B ) and give ST something like a 10 year hiatus, then I think it'd work.
ST needs to rest and rise again, not be constantley flogged at us by B&B who don't know when to quit leeching it.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

[dream]If that was true..... Perhaps they'd even bring ST back to life.... ST like it was before TNG....
Perhaps a pre-TOS series with these ships which have that ball head and whose name I always forget, or one about the Romulan-Earth war (even earlier).[/dream]

Daedalus. That wouldn't be a bad idea, but it'll never fly after the shit B&B have perpetrated. No one would watch, no matter how good it was. Not even the premiere.

First they'd need to cancel Enterprise (preferably burning everything related to it.. including B&B ) and give ST something like a 10 year hiatus, then I think it'd work.
ST needs to rest and rise again, not be constantley flogged at us by B&B who don't know when to quit leeching it.

Assuming that happened... do you think, based on the writing I have on this site (in the Fanfics forum) that I could do a decent job of creating a project like Star Trek: Daedalus ?

[Darth Wong]

Assuming that happened... do you think, based on the writing I have on this site (in the Fanfics forum) that I could do a decent job of creating a project like Star Trek: Daedalus ?

Compared to B&B's Cavalcade of Idiots, my dog Fuzzy could do a decent job of writing the next Star Trek. And he doesn't even have opposable thumbs!

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Assuming that happened... do you think, based on the writing I have on this site (in the Fanfics forum) that I could do a decent job of creating a project like Star Trek: Daedalus ?

Compared to B&B's Cavalcade of Idiots, my dog Fuzzy could do a decent job of writing the next Star Trek. And he doesn't even have opposable thumbs!

That wasn't exactly the answer I was looking for, but oh well...

[Alyeska]

ENT might be canon, but TOS and early-mid TNG has greater standing then ENT because Gene was in control or helped guide it.

Oh shit, here it comes.

I think at this point they would all be considered equally canon. Since Gene Rodenberry left the control to B&B then they now have the moral rights.

Yes and no. They would have moral rights over DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise. They would not have moral rights over TOS and TNG. So what we have is (drum roll please) ... two separate canon universes. The TOS/TNG Star Trek (Gene's Star Trek) and the DS9/Voyager/Enterprise Star Trek (B&B's Star Trek). Fans could either try to merge them into one (pretty much impossible after B&B's hack job), regard them as separate, or regard one as subordinate to the other.

There is however one little thing complicating the two seperate universe rule.

"Based on Star Trek by Gene Roddenberry"

That kinda says they want a direct link to Gene, and since Gene has the moral rights to ST, ENT can't over right anything from TOS or TNG.

[Darth Wong]

There is however one little thing complicating the two seperate universe rule.

"Based on Star Trek by Gene Roddenberry"

That kinda says they want a direct link to Gene, and since Gene has the moral rights to ST, ENT can't over right anything from TOS or TNG.

Righto. We should also remember that the phrase "based on" inherently indicates subordinate status. The film "Black Hawk Down" is based on the actual Mogadishu raid, but it does not define that raid. In the event of any contradiction between the actual facts of that raid and the film, the film obviously loses.

Similarly, the phrase "Based on Star Trek by Gene Roddenberry" says to me that the new series is an adaptation of the original Star Trek, and clearly has no power to supersede its events. In the event of intractable contradictions, it loses.

[Alyeska]

There is however one little thing complicating the two seperate universe rule.

"Based on Star Trek by Gene Roddenberry"

That kinda says they want a direct link to Gene, and since Gene has the moral rights to ST, ENT can't over right anything from TOS or TNG.

Righto. We should also remember that the phrase "based on" inherently indicates subordinate status. The film "Black Hawk Down" is based on the actual Mogadishu raid, but it does not define that raid. In the event of any contradiction between the actual facts of that raid and the film, the film obviously loses.

Similarly, the phrase "Based on Star Trek by Gene Roddenberry" says to me that the new series is an adaptation of the original Star Trek, and clearly has no power to supersede its events. In the event of intractable contradictions, it loses.

So that leaves us with one question. Is it a seperate but similar universe, or do we try and work them together?

[Master of Ossus]

I think that its technology and events must be admitted to the debate. Although they horribly screw up continuity and frequently contradict what happened in previous series, I think that we should try to include it in our debates whenever possible. I don't like it, but it obviously is part of the Trek universe. Damn.

[Darth Wong]

So that leaves us with one question. Is it a seperate but similar universe, or do we try and work them together?

That's up to the individual fan, I guess. To continue the analogy with Black Hawk Down, if someone asks "what happened in the movie", you would answer by examining the movie, and you would disregard the actual raid. If someone asks "what happened during the actual raid", you might look at the movie but if you find that the event in question happened differently during the actual raid, you would defer to the actual raid.

Therefore, you could do it either way. But if you do try to merge them, all I'm saying is that Enterprise is clearly inferior to the original series in the event of any contradictions, and the phrase "based on" actually confirms that interpretation. Personally, I would say that because of GR's total lack of involvement, and B&B's ass-covering "based on" disclaimer, that it should be considered an independent canon, loosely connected with the original (much as Starship Troopers the movie was "based on" the novel but is generally considered a completely different universe).