Wolf 359 Fleet?

[Master of Ossus]

Perhaps they were trying to hold off the Borg cube with the Wolf 359 fleet and Earth defences while massing a fleet and bringing in reinforcements from other powers? Sounds stupid really when I think about it but it's a possibility that they just underestimated the ability of the borg to slice through their defences.

It sounds stupid for a reason. The fleet should have thrown any reinforcements into the battle immediately, and more importantly they were underestimating the Borg by bringing in their traditional enemies to assist them in the fight?

[Master of Ossus]

Likewise the Feddies, Romulans, and Klingons might have only 200 ships within striking distance of each other. Relying instead on fixed point defense and time to redeploy in the event of a threat. Remember both of these borders do have disarmament treaties limiting the location and numbers of defensive units.


I'm really not sure where you are going with this MoO, if they have fewer ships then that is just more shipbuilding capacity before the Dominion War, do you honestly think

Assuming that the Federation, Romulans, and Klingons have that many ships within striking distance of one another, then they should have had more ships at Wolf 359 and in Sector 001.

Incidentally, okay, their shipbuilding abilities are greater. So what? I'm trying to correct a misconception that was created, and either way this analysis makes our overall idea of what is going on with Federation numbers and fleet strength more accurate, aren't I?

[Master of Ossus]

Perhaps they were trying to hold off the Borg cube with the Wolf 359 fleet and Earth defences while massing a fleet and bringing in reinforcements from other powers? Sounds stupid really when I think about it but it's a possibility that they just underestimated the ability of the borg to slice through their defences.

My thinking was along this line. Its called defense in depth, they assembled all the ships that could make it to Wolf359 in time to intersept the borg cube in a attempt to stall the enemy while more ships assembled at a different point closer to the enemies target. A economy of force or at best a rear guard action to stall for time to assemble a larger more powerfull fleet to engage the enemy.

Dialogue with the Admiral clearly indicated that they were trying to destroy the cube. Besides, if they were trying to stall it, then we would not expect the concentration of wreckage we saw. We would, instead, expect to see the UFP's fleet spread out, with a smattering of debris around a large area of space.

[Alyeska]

Perhaps they were trying to hold off the Borg cube with the Wolf 359 fleet and Earth defences while massing a fleet and bringing in reinforcements from other powers? Sounds stupid really when I think about it but it's a possibility that they just underestimated the ability of the borg to slice through their defences.

My thinking was along this line. Its called defense in depth, they assembled all the ships that could make it to Wolf359 in time to intersept the borg cube in a attempt to stall the enemy while more ships assembled at a different point closer to the enemies target. A economy of force or at best a rear guard action to stall for time to assemble a larger more powerfull fleet to engage the enemy.

Dialogue with the Admiral clearly indicated that they were trying to destroy the cube. Besides, if they were trying to stall it, then we would not expect the concentration of wreckage we saw. We would, instead, expect to see the UFP's fleet spread out, with a smattering of debris around a large area of space.

UFP fleet was partially spread out. We saw no more then a dozen ships together when the E-D passed through. DS9 Emissary indicates that several of the ships were destroyed quickly and the Cube moved on.

[Master of Ossus]

UFP fleet was partially spread out. We saw no more then a dozen ships together when the E-D passed through. DS9 Emissary indicates that several of the ships were destroyed quickly and the Cube moved on.

Problem with that is that some of the wreckage was still burning. If it had been destroyed immediately by the cube, we would have expected to see it cooled at least a bit before the Enterprise arrived. Also, we heard about the fleet trying to regroup at a specific location (I believe it was referred to as the "rendezvous point," but I could easily be mistaken), and that they were trying to pull back. That is not consistent with a holding action. It is also not consistent with a holding action with many more ships on the way for the fleet to be prepared well in advance, and that NO ships were in Sector 001, except for those three small and crappy interceptors.

[Vympel]

The annoying thing about the UFP fleet is how it was made up of goddamn obsolete pieces of crap. That's like the sector fleet at Endor being made of up of Dreadnoughts, Carrack and Strike Cruisers, and Corellian Corvettes.

Here's an interesting question- if Locutus hadn't been in charge of the Borg would the Federation fleet have won?

[Alyeska]

UFP fleet was partially spread out. We saw no more then a dozen ships together when the E-D passed through. DS9 Emissary indicates that several of the ships were destroyed quickly and the Cube moved on.

Problem with that is that some of the wreckage was still burning. If it had been destroyed immediately by the cube, we would have expected to see it cooled at least a bit before the Enterprise arrived. Also, we heard about the fleet trying to regroup at a specific location (I believe it was referred to as the "rendezvous point," but I could easily be mistaken), and that they were trying to pull back. That is not consistent with a holding action. It is also not consistent with a holding action with many more ships on the way for the fleet to be prepared well in advance, and that NO ships were in Sector 001, except for those three small and crappy interceptors.

Given the nature of most of the ships spotted in Wolf 359, I have no doubt they yanked them out of Utopia Plantia. One of a kind designs and rare variations. Two nebulas were there (one protoype, one line version), a couple of Mirandas (multiple versions), a whole hell lot of Excelsior variations, an Ambassador, and a lot of Galaxy cousins were there. They most likely all came from Utopia Planitia.

Wolf 359 does indicate SF was smaller and less organized then in DS9, but it is not striking proof that SF was tiny. Either Wolf 359 is proof that SF was tiny and that they built a whole new fleet VERY quickly, or it was proof that SF was disorganized and slightly smaller due to it not beinb mobilized for war.

The Klingon incurrsion forced SF to start rebuilding. Combine that with constant Dominion problems, and then the Dominion being in the Alpha quadrant and you got a reason for the fleet being built up. I also believe that fully 1/3 of the SF fleet was former mothball ships that were taken from the boneyards and upgraded for war (explains the number of Excelsiors and Miranda's compared to the newer ship classes).

[Master of Ossus]

The annoying thing about the UFP fleet is how it was made up of goddamn obsolete pieces of crap. That's like the sector fleet at Endor being made of up of Dreadnoughts, Carrack and Strike Cruisers, and Corellian Corvettes.

Here's an interesting question- if Locutus hadn't been in charge of the Borg would the Federation fleet have won?

Probably not. The Borg cube still would have been more powerful than the UFP fleet was. In any case, Locutus may have actually harmed them, because he somehow was unable to predict the E-D's plan, and moved right into Riker's hands.

[Master of Ossus]

It seems that Wolf 359 was a demonstration of how small SF was, during those times. It is simply inconceivable that they would have had so few starships along the Romulan and Klingon borders, given that those Empires were the greatest threat to their government and way of life.

[Alyeska]

IMO Locutus is the reason the Borg ship took zero damage when facing the Fed fleet. Prior to that when Picard was on the E-D, they were able to do SOME damage to the Cube. But when they assimilated Picard, none of the weapons that Picard knew about worked any longer.

[Sabastian Tombs]

Let me get this straight.

First a Borg Cube wipes out 39 of 40 ships of a Federation fleet at Wolf 358.

Then, the Cube continues to Earth, where it is destroyed by the Enterprise.

Several years later, in the Delta Quadrant, the USS Voyager encounters members of Starfleet captured in the Battle of Wolf 358.

Am I the only person who sees a problem with this timeline

[Alyeska]

Let me get this straight.

First a Borg Cube wipes out 39 of 40 ships of a Federation fleet at Wolf 358.

Then, the Cube continues to Earth, where it is destroyed by the Enterprise.

Several years later, in the Delta Quadrant, the USS Voyager encounters members of Starfleet captured in the Battle of Wolf 358.

Am I the only person who sees a problem with this timeline

Nope. We also saw evidence of a Cube having fought Klingon ships. Its clear the the Borg ship met with another Borg ship before heading towards Earth. We already know the Borg had been prowling around the Romulan Federation neutral zone.

[Sabastian Tombs]

Sorry, replace all references to Wolf 358 with Wolf 359 in the previous post.

[Isolder74]

It seems that Wolf 359 was a demonstration of how small SF was, during those times. It is simply inconceivable that they would have had so few starships along the Romulan and Klingon borders, given that those Empires were the greatest threat to their government and way of life.

That and the Klingon Civil; war where Picarde is forced to use the Sutherland in the blockade. Note that the ship had several of its decks become flooded with radiation(enough for Data's "first officer" to throw a fit over it) when it powered up its Phasers for combat. This is a catistrophic problem and the ship should have never been used for such a operation! If the Federation is so deperat for ships that they have to use a ship clearly unfit for combat for so important an operation what does that tell us about Wolf 359?

[Stormbringer]

What it tells us is that the Federation has the ships available for big fleet actions but only at the cost of sacrificing some of it's lesser commitments. Most likely, the Federation has plenty of ships, they're simply scattered to the wind. With the slow transit times, it would make sense that they can't always get all they need, in time.

Once they sacrificed the scientific missions and put themselves on a war footing, they do better.

[Alyeska]

It seems that Wolf 359 was a demonstration of how small SF was, during those times. It is simply inconceivable that they would have had so few starships along the Romulan and Klingon borders, given that those Empires were the greatest threat to their government and way of life.

That and the Klingon Civil; war where Picarde is forced to use the Sutherland in the blockade. Note that the ship had several of its decks become flooded with radiation(enough for Data's "first officer" to throw a fit over it) when it powered up its Phasers for combat. This is a catistrophic problem and the ship should have never been used for such a operation! If the Federation is so deperat for ships that they have to use a ship clearly unfit for combat for so important an operation what does that tell us about Wolf 359?

That prior to the discovery of the Dominion, SF was woefully unprepared for war of any sort. Why do you think they sought peace with the Cardassians?

[Moonshadow]

"The answer is self evident: they did not have any additional ships of those classes."

well three of the Wolf359 ship classes are in production. There have been references to other Cheyene, New Orleans, and Freedom class ships. O'Brian's former ship was the Rutlage(spelling) which was a New Orleans class ship like the Kyushu.

[Isolder74]

"The answer is self evident: they did not have any additional ships of those classes."

well three of the Wolf359 ship classes are in production. There have been references to other Cheyene, New Orleans, and Freedom class ships. O'Brian's former ship was the Rutlage(spelling) which was a New Orleans class ship like the Kyushu.

That would seem to indicate that the ships on regitry can be easilily recognized mearly by their shapes. Of note is the Transwarp Drive Project ships; the fact they are present at all indicates that they are really strapped for ships. Surely these ships are in some sort of museum. They couldn't have possibly been intended for combat.

[Moonshadow]

they used the Proto-Excelcoirs as fill-ins more or less. The production staff of the show made some battle damaged ships for the close up ships and for the background ship that just used any model thay could find( Battle-damaged or not). The Cheyene-Class ship was clearly seen with no damage at all in the DVDs.( which brings up the Question. Was it even in the Fight? and If so, why was it spared?)

[Isolder74]

they used the Proto-Excelcoirs as fill-ins more or less. The production staff of the show made some battle damaged ships for the close up ships and for the background ship that just used any model thay could find( Battle-damaged or not). The Cheyene-Class ship was clearly seen with no damage at all in the DVDs.( which brings up the Question. Was it even in the Fight? and If so, why was it spared?)

Perhaps it was the 1 out of forty that "survived"

[Moonshadow]

even more weird was that there is evidence that a refit-Constitution class ship was in the fight . On the left of the scene where it shows an outside view of the Enterprise you see the bottom of a Secondary hull from an old refit Connie( its really close to the camera. you can see those big windows near the bottom of the shuttlebay). Also theres a half blown up saucer of a Connie floating around on the view screen. Its the rear section of the saucer(so that rules out it belonging to a Miranda)

[Patrick Degan]

IMO Locutus is the reason the Borg ship took zero damage when facing the Fed fleet. Prior to that when Picard was on the E-D, they were able to do SOME damage to the Cube. But when they assimilated Picard, none of the weapons that Picard knew about worked any longer.

Picard did not have detailed knowledge of the new weapons developed by Starfleet (just about none of which were in production, according to Cmdr. Shelby and Adm. Hanson). What Locutus drew upon was intimate knowledge of Starfleet battle strategy.

From what we see in "Peak Performance", Starfleet appears to adhere to a formalised sheaf of naval strategems; taught to officer cadets and implemented in the manner of chess manoeuvers (cf ref. the Kumeh Manoeuver and the Talupin Strategem as its counter). An enemy gaining the knowledge of these strategies would know how a Federation fleet would react under battle conditions, how their admirals would think. That enemy would know what to expect. Locutus knew, based upon the knowledge of Picard, and had the advantage of Borg analytical capabilities working on counters to each of these strategems. If Hanson acted true to form, he never stood a chance of winning.

It also did not help that Hanson stupidly sent his ships in on strafing runs in groups of ones and twos, and essentially set up his entire fleet to get knocked down like clay pigeons.

Wolf 359 was a combination of insufficent Federation firepower combined with Federation tactical rigidity. With those two elements combined, defeat was a foregone conclusion.

[Cpt_Frank]

even more weird was that there is evidence that a refit-Constitution class ship was in the fight . On the left of the scene where it shows an outside view of the Enterprise you see the bottom of a Secondary hull from an old refit Connie( its really close to the camera. you can see those big windows near the bottom of the shuttlebay). Also theres a half blown up saucer of a Connie floating around on the view screen. Its the rear section of the saucer(so that rules out it belonging to a Miranda)

That shows that they're still in service unlike someone said in the show (in DS9 IIRC).

[Crazy_Vasey]

I suppose if the Borg sliced and diced a Connie that stumps the uber connie people if nothing else.

[Vympel]

The Cult of the Connie are just like the Cult of Borg. No numbers, lots of vague assertions and hasty jumping to conclusions.