Star Trek acceleration figures

[Darth Wong]

The point is phasers dont causes explosions nor are they a conventional weapon remmeber Q torps can harm neutronium but phasers cant.

Wrong. Q-torps were explicitly stated to be useless against a neutronium ground structure in DS9 (going after renegade Klingons; don't remember the episode name). In any case, the planet-killer was not neutronium anyway.

If you want phasers and disruptors to be conventional weapons I will take the TDiC calcs and go home .

You mean the ones where you try to figure out the energy requirement for making matter disappear into thin air? How do you perform the thermodynamic energy balance on that, Darkling? I must have missed that class when I took thermodynamics in university.

Besides, they didn't even hit it hard enough to produce luminous ejecta plumes. I wouldn't get too excited about TDiC, buddy.

Not only that but as has been stated attacking the machine head on was a bad idea and the gambit of overloading tyhe ships fusion reactors worked because the machine was distracted.

But shooting into it from a safe distance would have been impossible; I see. And it would have been easier for the machine to hit a photorp than a 400m long ship. Of course

We dont know what speed the Excelsior was going though - we do know that Stiles (right?) wasnt to bothered about catching them before they jumped to warp (in fact he was looking forward to the chance to use his transwarp drive).

Ah, so he was moving at low speed in order to deliberately let them go to warp? That's pathetic; he had orders to catch them, not to fuck around and play games with them.

Not to mention the Excelsior was closing on the Ent-nil even though they should technically be matched in impulse drives (according to Geordi the impulse drive has been of a static design for 200 years) and it was much later out of the gate than the Ent thus giving good evidence that the Ent-Nils impulse drive was sub par at that moment.

Closing marginally. If your figures for impulse speed are even within a couple of orders of magnitude of the correct ones, it should have been on top of it in a split-second.

[His Divine Shadow]

You mean the ones where you try to figure out the energy requirement for making matter disappear into thin air? How do you perform the thermodynamic energy balance on that, Darkling? I must have missed that class when I took thermodynamics in university.

Oh yeah, that class is only one lesson and it's pretty quick(and painfull), you get a kick in the groin and a warning that if you ever try to think about doing such a think they *will* find you and hunt you down like a dog.

A pre-emptive strike so to speak.

[Darth Wong]

WESLEY
Enterprise approaching the Terran
system, sir...

RIKER
Slow to impulse... time to
intercept...

WESLEY
Twenty-three minutes, fourteen
seconds, sir.

98 EXT. SPACE - THE ENTERPRISE (OPTICAL)

at impulse power moving by Saturn...

Sorry that warp jump idea doesnt fit.

Ah, but now that you've mentioned the exact scene, we can see that the scene itself does not indicate what you think it does. The time estimate is the time to intercept the cube, not the time to reach Earth. Therefore:

• If the cube increased its speed after this estimate, it would have taken much longer and farther to catch up.
• If Wesley fucked up and calculated a time to intercept based on the cube's position without accounting for its velocity (hardly inconceivable, given that he's a blithering idiot who has repeatedly endangered the safety of the entire ship), the time estimate would be grossly inaccurate even if the cube's velocity was constant.
• This is a time estimate before the fact, not a time elapsed statement after the fact. Wesley might have simply fucked up. Again, we're talking about a snot-nosed brat who isn't even qualified to sit in that damned chair.

Sorry, but you have dismissed an awful lot of possibilities in your zeal to (as usual) twist an incident to produce the highest possible numbers (ridiculous numbers in this case, since they imply FTL impulse drive).

[TheDarkling]

No Wong I dont count them as evidence of FTL impulse drive I simply discount them since its not reasnoable to do otherwise howewver nice character attack slipped in there - you truely are a master of your craft.

SHELBY
The Borg have dropped out of warp,
sir... Jupiter Outpost Nine-Two
reported visual contact at twelve
hundred hours, thirteen minutes...

RIKER
Planetary defenses?

SHELBY
Responding. No reports on
effectiveness... but I can't
believe that against the Borg...

RIKER
(interrupting)
Mister Crusher, at their current
speed, when will they reach Earth?

WESLEY
Twenty-seven minutes...

Is the quote most people thats 27 minutes from Jupiter to earth.
The quote I gave was for Saturn to Mars (which the Borg had already passed(and also assuming Wesley was an idiot and didnt factor in that the Borg were moving)).

Now I dont know the minium distance from Saturn to Mars that is possible but I know an approx distance is in the range of 8 AU (assuming an odd astral allignment heralds the Borgs attack on earth) over 23 minutes.

1 AU = 149,597,870.691 kilometers

So from that we get approx 865,869 km/s.

From Jupiter to Eath we get a distance of approx 5 AU over 27 minutes = 462,962 km/s.

C = approx 300,000 km/s.

These are just very rough calcs if you want to argue it further find out the minium possible seperation of the various planets involved (or possible get one of thos programs and find out the exact position on that day ) and then do you own calcs (mine may be way off be they are in the same range as the ones that appeared of Sb.com i believe).

I apologise if I got my figures or calcs wrong - its late here and I need sleep.

Of course we could conclude that the Feds just moved the planets closer together while they were bored one year (possible on the shakedown of the Ent-Nil) .

I would like a quote of the Q Torp being ineffectual since I dont know the episode you refer to, I do know an episode where the Defiants crew think about blowing up a ground structure with Jem Hadar in it if thats what you are talking about but I believe you will find that the episode states no such thing.

O'BRIEN
Wouldn't it be simpler to take out
the base from orbit? A few
quantum torpedoes should be enough
to level the entire area.


SISKO
Unfortunately, that's not an
option.

WEYOUN
The central structure is composed
of solid neutronium. Even a
direct hit from a quantum torpedo
wouldn't necessarily destroy our
objective.

A direct hit from A Q-Torp may not destroy the objective (the gateway) but it seems that destroying the building is within the range of a Q-Torp or three, therefore if this is the episode you spoke of then you misremembered (see no character attack - try to emulate).

The machine would see a photon torp as a threat but the ship was more or less inert until it got into the bell of the beast and cooked off meaning that the machine simply saw it in the food catergory instead of danger.

As for acceleration (which by the way I havent stated any figures to which I subscribe but never mind that carry on with your incorrect assertions), I have also shown that the Excelsior may not have been moving at full impulse now if you want to pile an assumption onto the heap that this thread seems to be based on go ahead.

[Darth Wong]

No Wong I dont count them as evidence of FTL impulse drive I simply discount them since its not reasnoable to do otherwise howewver nice character attack slipped in there - you truely are a master of your craft.

Aww, poor baby. You cite vague snippets of evidence and then wonder why people don't bow at your feet. Perhaps you would like some cheese with that whine?

OK, on what basis do you discount them? One of my above options (Wesley is incompetent) explains it perfectly.

Of course we could conclude that the Feds just moved the planets closer together while they were bored one year (possible on the shakedown of the Ent-Nil) .

Or that Wesley is an idiot.

WEYOUN
The central structure is composed
of solid neutronium. Even a
direct hit from a quantum torpedo
wouldn't necessarily destroy our
objective.

A direct hit from A Q-Torp may not destroy the objective (the gateway) but it seems that destroying the building is within the range of a Q-Torp or three, therefore if this is the episode you spoke of then you misremembered

Who said anything about "misremembered?" I said the Q-torps could not destroy a neutronium structure, and from the above quote, it looks like they can't. The central structure is composed of neutronium, therefore they can't blow it up. Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

(see no character attack - try to emulate).

Hey asshole, I attacked your argument methods. I did not mention your character, although from your current tactics, perhaps I should have. Stop trying to turn this into a debate over accusations of impropriety.

The machine would see a photon torp as a threat but the ship was more or less inert until it got into the bell of the beast and cooked off meaning that the machine simply saw it in the food catergory instead of danger.

Excuses, excuses. Now we rely upon astounding machine stupidity for our explanation; a warship flies into its maw and it doesn't occur to the machine that it might have anything volatile onboard. Yeah, sure. The fact is that "Doomsday Machine" destroys the uber-connie, and there's nothing you can do about it except for offering up feeble excuses like this.

As for acceleration (which by the way I havent stated any figures to which I subscribe but never mind that carry on with your incorrect assertions), I have also shown that the Excelsior may not have been moving at full impulse now if you want to pile an assumption onto the heap that this thread seems to be based on go ahead.

I like the way every paragraph contains some sort of criticism of me, more so than criticism of the points I was trying to make. Did you figure out how to use these oh-so-clever tactics all by yourself?

[TheDarkling]

Thats what I love about the good warsies excuses - when all else fails assume an incrediable level of stupididty from everyone ion the ship and move on.
While Wesley was an annoying creature he wasnt a complete moron, not to mention the fact that other people on the bridge should have twigged sicne I assume most of them have been in the Sol systems and thus should know the average travel time, so basically we are back to everyone in trek knowingless than you (they are all idiots and your corrrect) and I wont make that concession simlpy because forced to choose between ten people who have done the trip many times, have a computer to do the calc for them and know their rough average speed I will side with them instead of labeling them all idiots just to fit with your explanation.

The reason I discount them is simple - the writters made an error although I'm not actually sure if there is opposing evidence anywhere that states impulse is STL if there isnt them accepting the FTL impulse drive isnt really about choice - you got any quotes saying Impulse is STL? not that it really matters.

I cant read you say? hmm A Q Torp maynot be able tp destroy the gateway which is there target - he doesnt say the building will resist 10 Q-torps he also doesnt say it can ressit one only that 1 q torp may not destroy the gateway housed in side - I can read fine thanks and I actually did read the quote.

Ermm did the mchine allow the ship to enter its maw? could it have gone around it? could it have carved it up? the machines "stupidity" as you put it is exactly what it displayed, we also know the machine had specific status programming - as shown when the ship wasnt a threat it went back to eating (simply ignoring it as a none threat as it does later).

If you have a better explanation of why it allowed the ship into its maw if it was the brightest spark in the universe (which we already know it wasnt) then lets hear it.

[Darth Servo]

Thats what I love about the good warsies excuses - when all else fails assume an incrediable level of stupididty from everyone ion the ship and move on.

Its not an assumption. Its an observation.

While Wesley was an annoying creature he wasnt a complete moron

He understood Federation tech quite well, but outside the engineering section he was pretty helpless.

not to mention the fact that other people on the bridge should have twigged sicne I assume most of them have been in the Sol systems and thus should know the average travel time, so basically we are back to everyone in trek knowingless than you (they are all idiots and your corrrect) and I wont make that concession simlpy because forced to choose between ten people who have done the trip many times, have a computer to do the calc for them and know their rough average speed I will side with them instead of labeling them all idiots just to fit with your explanation.

They all have the same training, so its not unbelievable that they would make similar mistakes. Afterall, they repeatedly cite distances that are orders of magnitude greater than what we actually see from outside the ship.

The reason I discount them is simple - the writters made an error

Not an option in these debates. Remember suspension of disbelief?

although I'm not actually sure if there is opposing evidence anywhere that states impulse is STL if there isnt them accepting the FTL impulse drive isnt really about choice - you got any quotes saying Impulse is STL? not that it really matters.

The evidence is that everytime we actually SEE federation ships moving relative to something else allowing for speed calcs, except for TMP [where they were clearly using at least partial warp drive] they are NEVER anywhere near what you trekies want them to be. The only defense given so far is that Fed captains really are the idiots we've said they are.

I cant read you say? hmm A Q Torp maynot be able tp destroy the gateway which is there target - he doesnt say the building will resist 10 Q-torps he also doesnt say it can ressit one only that 1 q torp may not destroy the gateway housed in side - I can read fine thanks and I actually did read the quote.

You obviously skipped the part of the quote you yourself provided where Sisko declares that destruction is not an option and Weyoun goes on to explain that its because of neutronium. IF 10 q-torps would have done the job, either THEY WOULD HAVE USED THEM--or they're idiots.

Ermm did the mchine allow the ship to enter its maw? could it have gone around it? could it have carved it up? the machines "stupidity" as you put it is exactly what it displayed, we also know the machine had specific status programming - as shown when the ship wasnt a threat it went back to eating (simply ignoring it as a none threat as it does later).

They didn't ever TRY. After learning that the machine was vulnerable in its mouth, they didn't even THINK about shooting it. So you're Mr Spock. Shooting the thing's shell had no effect. Decker demonstrated that it could be damaged from the inside. Kirk wants to send in the Constelation set to explode. The Transporter isn't working properly. Shooting the thing in the mouth with your own weapons is a much better alternative than Kirk risking his life. As you said, the thing didn't attack unless attacked itslef. So why not play dead, slip up to the thing and then blast away into its mouth?!? Again, the only options are that thier weapons are NOT capable of exceeding that of the exploding impulse engines and/or they're idiots.

If you have a better explanation of why it allowed the ship into its maw if it was the brightest spark in the universe (which we already know it wasnt) then lets hear it.

The machine's poor AI is not the issue. If it didn't shoot a ship headed straight for its mouth, it probably wouldn't shoot a torp either.

[Darth Wong]

Thats what I love about the good warsies excuses - when all else fails assume an incrediable level of stupididty from everyone ion the ship and move on.

And that's worse than your approach where you simply "discount" that which does not make sense under your bizarre system of assuming people are infallible?

The people ARE stupid. They designed a warship with kids on board. They designed a power generation system which acts like a giant bomb. They have a saucer which can separate to take the kids away from battle, but they never use that feature because they need the saucer's fusion reactors. They think you can find a "fissure" in a mathematically defined radius, use sonic weapons in space, change mathematical laws (specifically, probability) through technological means, and launch untested devices toward populated colonies on their maiden voyage and hope everything goes well.

It is impossible to watch Star Trek and continue to deny that the people occupying their ships are stupid. If it weren't for the occasional intelligent person and all of the gift technology they received from the Vulcans, they would still be lurching drunkenly around Nevada playing "Doobie doobie".

[Darth Servo]

We dont know what speed the Excelsior was going though - we do know that Stiles (right?) wasnt to bothered about catching them before they jumped to warp (in fact he was looking forward to the chance to use his transwarp drive).

Ah, so he was moving at low speed in order to deliberately let them go to warp? That's pathetic; he had orders to catch them, not to fuck around and play games with them.

The speed excuses, the low yield excuses, the incompetant engineering excuses. I'm starting to wonder if the Federation has some sort of stupidity requirement for admitance to the academy.

Maybe something like this:
General order 13--All Starfleet personel are required to handicap themselves as much as possible.

[TheDarkling]

They let Kids on the ships - as you can see from the recent thread on this subject it isnt necessarily stupid just a bad judgement call.

The GCS warp core may not have had enough testing again not indictative of the sort of stupidity we would need to help your case.

The saucer idea is put into use and thus isnt redundant .

As for the event horrizon episode as much as it pains me to say it they were successful in doing it prving that their physical laws differ from ours.

I cant remember the Feds usnig sonic weapons in space.

They did change probability this isnt stupidity on the crews part just the writters but sinc eit actually worked theres no stupidity involved.

The solition wave (was it untested?) was an example of the Feds over reliance on their tech (the techno faith they have).

You havent shown stupidity on the crews part and certainly not on the level it would be required (are you going to tell me just because a car may have a problem with its wheels that a person cant understand the speedometer).

You require trained individuals to not know the approx time on a journey they have taken many many times or the capability of their vessel or that the kid in charge of the helm doesnt know how to use his station.

Basically eveyrthing you posted was a mixture of irrelevant red herrings (the designers of the ships are stupid and so are the writters - this has no relation to the crews intellect) and you trying to assert out physical laws over what they tell us are their physical laws, in short they know more about their universe than you do.

[Darth Wong]

They let Kids on the ships - as you can see from the recent thread on this subject it isnt necessarily stupid just a bad judgement call.

Interesting distinction. Tell me, what's the difference between stupidity and shitty judgement?

The GCS warp core may not have had enough testing again not indictative of the sort of stupidity we would need to help your case.

It was certified safe for civilian use without testing? Oh no, I'm afraid that is exactly the sort of stupidity we need to help my case.

The saucer idea is put into use and thus isnt redundant.

Very rarely, thus indicating even more stupidity. Either it makes sense to use it, or it doesn't. Either way, their inconsistent use indicates stupidity; they are not thinking before they act.

As for the event horrizon episode as much as it pains me to say it they were successful in doing it prving that their physical laws differ from ours.

No, it means they had no idea what they were talking about, and they obviously misinterpretd some physical phenomenon. The "sometimes you've just got to ram your way through" solution proved that beyond a doubt.

I cant remember the Feds usnig sonic weapons in space.

It's from TOS.

They did change probability this isnt stupidity on the crews part just the writters but sinc eit actually worked theres no stupidity involved.

Wrong yet again. They rationalized events which could have had other, less ridiculous explanations by leaping to the most inane, irrational explanation possible. This makes them no better than creationists; if in doubt, ignore fundamental principles of science and logic when trying to explain the unknown. Yes, they're stupid.

The solition wave (was it untested?) was an example of the Feds over reliance on their tech (the techno faith they have).

No, the decision to fire the untested device toward a populated colony was irredeemably stupid. Blind faith is stupid.

You havent shown stupidity on the crews part and certainly not on the level it would be required (are you going to tell me just because a car may have a problem with its wheels that a person cant understand the speedometer).

Mathematics are required in order to estimate an intercept time. That is hardly equivalent to reading a simple speedometer. It is entirely possible that Wesley plotted the distance to the cube, asked for an ETA, and forgot that the cube's current velocity would carry it far beyond that point before they actually intercepted it.

You require trained individuals to not know the approx time on a journey they have taken many many times or the capability of their vessel or that the kid in charge of the helm doesnt know how to use his station.

Thank you for proving my point. You have just confused "time to intercept a moving target" with "time to travel from fixed point A to fixed point B, which they've done before". That's the exact same mistake I'm accusing Wesley of.

Basically eveyrthing you posted was a mixture of irrelevant red herrings (the designers of the ships are stupid and so are the writters - this has no relation to the crews intellect) and you trying to assert out physical laws over what they tell us are their physical laws, in short they know more about their universe than you do.

In other words, their incredible stupidity can all be chalked up to unknowns, ie- appeal to ignorance. Is this really the best you can do?

[Slartibartfast]

They let Kids on the ships - as you can see from the recent thread on this subject it isnt necessarily stupid just a bad judgement call.

Interesting distinction. Tell me, what's the difference between stupidity and shitty judgement?

I believe that 'bad judgement call' would be the equivalent of technobabble for stupidity?

[Darth Servo]

They let Kids on the ships - as you can see from the recent thread on this subject it isnt necessarily stupid just a bad judgement call.

And just HOW do you differentiate between "a bad judgement call" and stupidity??? Puting children on a warship is STUPID. Most modern day militaries are very well aware of this.

The GCS warp core may not have had enough testing again not indictative of the sort of stupidity we would need to help your case.

This ship is the FLAGSHIP of your fleet. To not throughly test it is STUPID

The saucer idea is put into use and thus isnt redundant.

The whole idea of the separating saucer was to make the ship MORE combat effective and to get the kids away. But then we learn that it actually REDUCES the ships power proves that the designers are STUPID

As for the event horrizon episode as much as it pains me to say it they were successful in doing it prving that their physical laws differ from ours.

Or that they're STUPID and don't know what the hell they're talking about.

I cant remember the Feds usnig sonic weapons in space.

ep: A Taste of Armageddon. The people of Vendicar use them.

They did change probability this isnt stupidity on the crews part just the writters but sinc eit actually worked theres no stupidity involved.

Either that or it was something else at work. Once again you rely on your assumption of Infallible dialogue (TM).

The solition wave (was it untested?) was an example of the Feds over reliance on their tech (the techno faith they have).

JA'DAR: Twenty-three field coils, working in concert, will generate the soliton wave from this point on the planet surface. We will have the test ship towed to a position approximately two million kilometers from Bilana Three. If our theories are correct, the wave will envelop the ship and push it into warp.

No mention of prior tests, just theories. And they launch the thing directly at an inhabited colony. STUPID

You havent shown stupidity on the crews part and certainly not on the level it would be required (are you going to tell me just because a car may have a problem with its wheels that a person cant understand the speedometer).

If there is a problem with the wheels, the speedometer could easily be inaccurate.

You require trained individuals to not know the approx time on a journey they have taken many many times or the capability of their vessel or that the kid in charge of the helm doesnt know how to use his station.

And you require that said people are infalliable.

Basically eveyrthing you posted was a mixture of irrelevant red herrings (the designers of the ships are stupid and so are the writters - this has no relation to the crews intellect) and you trying to assert out physical laws over what they tell us are their physical laws, in short they know more about their universe than you do.

Assuming the characters are infalliable.

[Lord Poe]

Very quickly E7101:

The Deadly Years:

Those weren't the same weapons that the PROTOTYPE Romulan warbird was firing in Balance of Terror. You can tell by the exterior shots of the Enterprise getting hit, which looks exactly like Klingon torpedo hits from "Errand of Mercy"

The Balance of Terror wweapon didn't home in or maneuver, since the Enterprise didn't.

Roddenberry "rewrote" NOTHING. He changed a word or two to get CREDIT on the script for the MONEY. He did this every chance he could. Read "Inside Star Trek" written by the TOS producers. Roddenberry even added LYRICS to the TOS main theme so he could claim 50% of Alexander Courage's money.

And finally, Roddenberry did NOT write the TMP novelization. Alan Dean Foster did.

Oh, and since Trekkies never keep track of their corrections, no, Worf never said the phaser range was 300,000km in "Conundrum" either.

[Lord Poe]

In TNG BOBW PT2 they entered Sector 001 and left warp, they could make it from Saturn to Mars in 23 minutes...

Assuming the shortest possible distance between the two, thats FTL travel with impulse engines.

They'd have to, for the big U-turn. Since they were headed to Uranus instead of Earth. (Check where the light is reflecting on Saturn....)

[TheDarkling]

Wong you arent listening I have already shown that even if Wesley made the error you speak of the impulse engines are still ftl (and you just ignore this of course) he would require to be unable to do his job and that everyone else forgets how long the journey should take - you are trying to fit a square peg in a round whole.

A bad judgement call can be stupid but they stupidity you guys need is that no one knows the abilities of their ship of has a memory of the manytime sthey transit in and out of solart systems and Sol in particular (whihc most of them must have done a few times).

Im sure the ship was throughly tested but we all know the Feds over reliance on their tech.

The idea behind the Saucer is if the ship is going into dnager they can get the Kids away but yes it will reduce the ships power (to an unknown degree).

No they arent stpid and dont know what the hell they are talking abuot with reguards to the entire event horizion thing - they were correct same thing with the probability setup - square peg again, you are trying to force out physical laws on them at the expense of their intelligence and frankly it doesnt work.
Im not relying on infallible dialogue im simply saying they understand their universe better than us (yes even you Wong) and if they believe something is at work (and their theory pans out) then they are correct even if it does seem illogical.

If the wheels are broken that may effect the speedometer however that isnt what a ment and I should hope you realise that but go ahead and nitpick the example since you dont want to address it.

Im not assuming the characters are infalliable im simply assuming they have some idea of their top speed (im not about to tell you my car can go 800 mph because I know what its capable of (at least to a degree) and im also not going to tell you a journey of 20 miles will take me 3 minutes when I have done the Journey before and it takes around 20-25 approx) that level of stupidity/strange weird unexplainable memory loss seems very odd but by all means explain how this could happen (with a big huge theory adding lots of extra mechanisms since total memory loss or a sub 30 IQ isnt an option for everyone on the ship.

Yes a knew about the people of Vendicar but since they arent Federation my point stands - it was a complete red herring.

[Darth Wong]

Wong you arent listening I have already shown that even if Wesley made the error you speak of the impulse engines are still ftl (and you just ignore this of course) he would require to be unable to do his job and that everyone else forgets how long the journey should take - you are trying to fit a square peg in a round whole.

How? The 27-minute time to Earth? They were picked up by the Jupiter station at "1200 hours ..." which you assume to be the time of the scene in question and which you also assume to mean that the cube was just passing Jupiter, as if their sensor range was nil, so you figure they have FTL impulse drive instead of looking for a better explanation?

A bad judgement call can be stupid but they stupidity you guys need is that no one knows the abilities of their ship of has a memory of the manytime sthey transit in and out of solart systems and Sol in particular (whihc most of them must have done a few times).

Or commits the same mistake you did, assuming variables hastily.

Im sure the ship was throughly tested but we all know the Feds over reliance on their tech.

So you figure the ship was "thoroughly tested" even though it was deeply flawed, and then you decide that "over-reliance on their tech" is somehow different from incompetence? How?

Yes a knew about the people of Vendicar but since they arent Federation my point stands - it was a complete red herring.

No, because Spock decided that it was a sonic weapon, and then gave a ridiculous power figure for it which would have shattered the planet (something which obviously did not happen). This is clear scientific incompetence and technical incompetence, which you dismiss as a "red herring" because Spock's staggering incompetence lay in describing the weapons of someone other than the Federation. Any excuse to declare it inadmissible, eh?

[TheDarkling]

Anything to look like you are always right eh Wong?

use sonic weapons in space,

Thats what you said now you attempt to alter your position in order to avoid admitting you were wrong - no surprise here.

You say the Fed's are stupid for using a sonic weapon in space yet thy dont, Scotty calling it a sonic weapon is a different matter (also prove it isnt a sonic weapon of that power, once again you dont over-ride canon).

SHELBY
The Borg have dropped out of warp,
sir... Jupiter Outpost Nine-Two
reported visual contact at twelve
hundred hours, thirteen minutes...

RIKER
Planetary defenses?

SHELBY
Responding. No reports on
effectiveness... but I can't
believe that against the Borg...

RIKER
(interrupting)
Mister Crusher, at their current
speed, when will they reach Earth?

WESLEY
Twenty-seven minutes...

From this we know they have only just arrived at jupiter since the planetary defences have only just opened up their attack(they have also not had time to report effectiveness and are still firing meaning the Borg are close by) (we also get from this that the Borg have managed to cover saturn to jupiter in the time it took Riker to get to the bridge but we will have to guess he took a few minutes of R&R ) therefore it is still very close to jupiter and its going to cover Jupiter to Earth in 27 minutes.

On the issue on sensor range isnt visual contact usually up close and personal ( in the light seconds range) im sure you must have sniped it in your database (I rememeber something about it but cant be bothered top look).

WORF
It is confirmed... the Borg have
broken through the Mars defense
perimeter...

WESLEY
Enterprise approaching the Terran
system, sir...

RIKER
Slow to impulse... time to
intercept...

WESLEY
Twenty-three minutes, fourteen
seconds, sir.

98 EXT. SPACE - THE ENTERPRISE (OPTICAL)

at impulse power moving by Saturn...

Now here even if we take your example of Wesley (you are getting the incidents mixed up a feel thats why Im showing the quotes again) not accounting for the Borg moving this means the Ent-D covers the distance from Saturn to Mars in 23 mins 14 seconds (it sure sounds like hes being accurate).
We also assume here the Mars defence permitere is around mars but it could be slighty to either side.
I dont think Wesley would make such a mistake but even if he did we still have problems with the speed.
We also assume that no time passes between Wesley announcing their approach to the Terran system and the external visual (something we didnt do in the Borg example above to try and slow the Borg down).

You can continue to try and get that square peg to fir (you need a mallet?) or you can just admit that not all problems have a solution (or are you going to tell me Federation space is filled with matter thats why we hear sound in the battles?) - take into account thats this is a media that will sometimes have flaws and move on.

I dont really expect you t address any of my points since whatever you do victory (at least in popular opinion) is assured because of the quasi religious reguard the folks around here have for you.

Unless you bring up something of interest I must again refrain from mindless repetition and simply agree to disagree with you (I hold that its a Sci fi universe with its own laws and that the media presented to us can have flaws you hold that trained scientist familiar with their wn universal laws are idiots because it doesnt mesh with your opinion of their physical laws).

[Illuminatus Primus]

Federation sensors, just like SW sensors, probably feed audio feedback to the crew. That's how "sound" in space is explained in SW. A damn good explanation that probably applies to Trek too. Notice how "cloaked" ships in science fiction usually don't give the "woosh" sound as they pass by.

[TheDarkling]

Except when we see things in space (ie the camera is in space and not on the bridge) we still hear the sounds.

[Darth Wong]

I see you are now resorting to the "I can't win; Wong's an asshole and his followers will lynch me" sob story. Always focus on the man, eh Alyeska?

The fact is that you make certain assumptions and inferences (eg- they must be passing Jupiter even though we don't see it, because we hear vague dialogue about planetary defense, etc) and while they may seem reasonable in isolation, they are not guaranteed, and if they lead to the silly conclusion that impulse drive is FTL, then they are obviously wrong.

In essence, you are arguing that rationalization is completely impossible in this case, even though your analysis necessarily involves a few inferences and assumptions. You don't seem to get it; even if an assumption seems mildly reasonable in isolation, it should not be taken if it leads to conclusions which don't make any sense, and it IS still just an assumption.

As for the sonic weapons, I can't believe you're defending it. Spock called it a "sonic weapon". That was HIS incompetence, regardless of who fired this imaginary toy. The numbers (completely inconsistent with results) are also HIS incompetence. You cannot deny HIS incompetence by saying that he was talking about someone else's invention. The words still came out of HIS mouth. Get it now? Or must I repeat myself yet again?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Darkling: Don't be an idiot. We hear sounds from the omniscient perspective as humans hear them in movies. Why not as dogs do? Huh? The subjective point of view (ie, hear and see like human eyes and ears, sense and observe spacecraft as humans in other spacecraft would) You're being a dipshit. Please try again.

[TheDarkling]

I havent watched the episode in a while but wast it scotty or even ensign no name who said it was a sonic weapon and if it was then it was (rationalise it as differing terms if you like but thats that).

If you want to put forward a theory against it then put some calcs on the table I would like to see them for example what range must jupiters planetary defences have.
If you put forward some calcs (that dont have jupiters planetary defences reaching half way to Mars or the Mars defence permiter being closer to jupiter) then I will take a look and if they fit ok with what canon puts forth then thats fair enough.

Illuminatus Primus: Correct no brain thats my point the media we see isnt perfect (Wong likes to think of it as actual historic footage right down to spies going on convert missions to alter it (his explanation for the OT SE (ok not quite but you did say it was a forgery))).

That was my point its not my fault you cant grasp what we are talking about - go sit at the kiddies table and debate Han Solo Vs Worf and let the grown ups speak, theres a good boy.

[Darth Wong]

Darkling, why do you assume that planetary defenses must be guns mounted on one of Jupiter's moons, rather than fighters or drones? Why do you even assume that the planetary defenses in question were based on Jupiter and not Mars? They did not clearly specify Jupiter's planetary defenses. As I said, even a reasonable inference is still hardly a guarantee, yet you are treating it as such.

As for sounds in space, they can be the sounds heard inside each spacecraft, ie the TIE pilot hears his own guns, the X-wing pilot hears his own engines, etc. Sound transmission through vacuum is not necessary for our imaginary omniscient camera.

Rather than looking for answers, you are looking to create problems. What is the point? To argue that Trek is so shoddily produced that it cannot be analyzed in an objective manner? If so, then why do you try?

[Illuminatus Primus]

You think my insulting me you can excavate yourself from your pit of ignorance? Notice how ad hominiem replaces rebuttal for Darkling. Small minds, sad tactics.