Who won the Mike/RSA debate?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-24 01:19am

If that's the way you feel, I guess. A lot of sci-fi fans are REALLY hung up on the "correct" way of deciding what does and doesn't count (I've found that among casual fans, it's near-universal that Greedo shot first; they tend to throw up a collective "wha-?" if you mention "canon"). Me, I think it's more important to know how to analyze it logically and objectively once you've decided what it is that you want to analyze.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-24 01:23am

Commander LeoRo wrote:I voted for a tie. The only reason I voted for a tie was because Darth Wong flat out called the Special Editions "historical revistionism", which is not the way George Lucas views them. Other than that, Darkstar's defense of the MCR or the Superlaser Effect was not good enough to win an uphill battle against the classic theory.

You actually felt that this lone comment should be weighted equally against the entire mountain of bullshit that Darkstar built? Whatever ...

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2002-10-24 01:24am

It's clear Lucas agrees that the Special Editions are historical revisionism. Lucas says that if they release a DVD OT "Ultimate Edition" after the Prequels, that it won't include the original movie, because he views the Special Edition as the "completed movie" as opposed to his "abandoned" movie.

Still Greedo should've shot first. Uh...Greedo DID shoot first.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-10-24 01:28am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:It's clear Lucas agrees that the Special Editions are historical revisionism. Lucas says that if they release a DVD OT "Ultimate Edition" after the Prequels, that it won't include the original movie, because he views the Special Edition as the "completed movie" as opposed to his "abandoned" movie.

Still Greedo should've shot first. Uh...Greedo DID shoot first.

SO then it should be released after SW9?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-10-24 01:30am

Darth Wong wrote:
Commander LeoRo wrote:I voted for a tie. The only reason I voted for a tie was because Darth Wong flat out called the Special Editions "historical revistionism", which is not the way George Lucas views them. Other than that, Darkstar's defense of the MCR or the Superlaser Effect was not good enough to win an uphill battle against the classic theory.
You actually felt that this lone comment should be weighted equally against the entire mountain of bullshit that Darkstar built? Whatever ...

That one quote was in direct reference to what constituted the "real" story of Star Wars. Considering the fact that GL views the Special Editions as his definitive OT you can't blatantly argue the opposite reasonably. Like I said though, you had him beat with the MCR/Superlaser Effect portion. The EU argument was Darkstar's strongest area. It was a close debate, but I think he pulled off a victory in that one area. I'm biased though, I prefer the OT to the EU.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-24 02:06am

Commander LeoRo wrote:That one quote was in direct reference to what constituted the "real" story of Star Wars. Considering the fact that GL views the Special Editions as his definitive OT you can't blatantly argue the opposite reasonably. Like I said though, you had him beat with the MCR/Superlaser Effect portion. The EU argument was Darkstar's strongest area. It was a close debate, but I think he pulled off a victory in that one area. I'm biased though, I prefer the OT to the EU.

A lot of people do. But that has nothing to do with the "historical revisionism" comment re: Greedo's shot (which was classic vs SE, and was a single-paragraph sidebar to the "EU inclusion" issue).

Not to poke you for being as stupid as Darkstar (I can't imagine that anyone is), but how about some basic logic, ie- you can't prove A by proving B? Look up "red herring". You can't dump the EU by proving that the SE's overrule the originals. Even if they do, that has nothing to do with the EU, which is neither SE or original, and which is still quasi-canon.

Methinks you must really dislike the EU to use that sentence as an excuse to claim Darkstar won that entire portion of the debate.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » 2002-10-24 02:20am

I gave up after reading RSA's first post.

Turned away and never looked back on that debate.

All I know is that my head really hurt from reading it and just from the amount of radiation my head took cause of the length of RSA's posts.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-10-24 02:29am

I agree with Star and Wong crushed him we all lost our mind...but TIE?!

Honestly, Dumbass only stayed in existence because of the perpetual ignorance his power gives him...aside from that Wong destroyed him...I mean his last ones were basically these long winded BS drivel ridden things that like Stravo made me question was he sane ever.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-24 03:30am

While I lost interest after the 3 round of so (therefore I cant comment on who won) from the arguments and quotes put forward I would have to agre that the EU looks in doubt.

I wont launch into a full argument I will simply show what I think.

We know Canon is 100% valid info.
EU on the other hand is shown by a number of quotes that it contains grains or nuggets of truth.

Ther only way we can verify whats valid evidence is to use that confirmed by canon making the EU useless as evidence - instead the current thinking is to let in all evidence not contradicted by canon even though this will let in invalid data.

Doesnt really bother me though - just use the EU Verse in Vs debates.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2002-10-24 03:37am

Darth Wong wrote:
Akm72 wrote:As everyone expected RSA to loose, just remaining on his feet til the end is almost like a victory for him
He didn't remain on his feet. I chopped his arms and legs off in the first round! Unfortunately, he believes that he stayed on his feet till the end, and will tell everyone within earshot.

"Come back here, you yellow bastard! I'll bite off your head!"

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2002-10-24 03:40am

yes like this

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-10-24 04:07am

Darth Wong wrote:If that's the way you feel, I guess. A lot of sci-fi fans are REALLY hung up on the "correct" way of deciding what does and doesn't count (I've found that among casual fans, it's near-universal that Greedo shot first; they tend to throw up a collective "wha-?" if you mention "canon"). Me, I think it's more important to know how to analyze it logically and objectively once you've decided what it is that you want to analyze.

But if Greedo shot first, why did he shot first? What was his motive, if he was trying to collect a bounty and later Boba said repeatedly that he needed him alive. Did Han pull a gun under the table, then thought "ok, I have a plan. If he shoots first and for some lucky fuckup of destiny I'm not dead, then I'll shoot back!", and after all, Han was the one being bounty-hunted.

Other than that, there isn't really much relevance to SW debates if he shot first or not. It won't help state firepower values, or speed comparisons, etc. and it's a bit of a nitpick. On the other hand, I don't know if the original unedited footage showed Han shooting second. If it did, then it's entirely possible that it was accidentaly cut during the original edit. And well, it IS his show after all.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-10-24 04:11am

"No winners in war there are. Lose everybody does. Started have, the Clone Wars, er, is."

I did read the first round or two though. But the next ones were just repeats and repeats by Lardstar.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-24 08:04am

Argh. Careless typing. I meant to say that among casual fans, it's near-universal that Greedo did NOT shoot first.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-24 08:34am

Just because fans think that doesnt make it true though or else the Ent-D really is immune to all lasers and the Connie really could frag the Death star as it flew past going at a million C.

To my mind Greedo did shoot first but in truth it cant be used in these debates because personally rewritting of canon is only valid to ones self.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-24 08:35am

Dammit I did exaclty the same thing as Wong - to my mind Greedo didnt shoot first (or at all).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-24 08:55am

Who said anything about rewriting canon? The original version is out there. GL made a revised version, so now there are two SW canon trilogies. Fans are allowed to decide which version of the trilogy they want to talk about. Since when are fans disallowed from talking about the original version, except in Darkstar's over-polarized world where preferred approaches suddenly become Absolute Laws?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-24 09:24am

I agree but for the debates there has to be a hard and fast rule which is the SE suplant the original version otherwise we get people who choose to disallow the EU or disallow comics of disallow things by KJA of disallow the ICS and so on.

If you state that you are only allowing certain material fine but for official Vs debates the SE is the version that people look to, just as the EU is allowed but trek books arent - what if for example I want to allow a certain trek book into canon - it wont be allowed because its against Paramounts policy just as its Lucas' policy tht the SE is now canon and hte original version has been replaced.

Thats my point basically - personally as far as I am concerned Greedo didnt shoot but for a debating standpoint under the standards rules he did and when debating I have to accept that

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-24 09:36am

TheDarkling wrote:I agree but for the debates there has to be a hard and fast rule which is the SE suplant the original version otherwise we get people who choose to disallow the EU or disallow comics of disallow things by KJA of disallow the ICS and so on.

That already happens. We already have people who declare that they will only debate on the basis of canon, people who want to include the TM in ST debates, etc. I was willing to debate Gothmog with the TM until he decided he'd rather talk about "philosophical approaches". I don't see it as a huge problem, unless people try to include material for which no effort has been made at continuity whatsoever (eg- computer gameplay rules etc). After all, it's not as if the Empire loses regardless of which trilogy version you use, whether you include the EU, whether you include the TM, etc., so I'm willing to be flexible.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-24 09:44am

I personally consider the New Frontier books to be canon in my own view of the ST universe because they dont contradict anything and they are probably the 3rd greatest st "series", that being said I wouldnt start writting in a debate about how a SF offcier has a best friend who is a God and he could use that to his advantage (or that SF stilll has at least one Captain who knows the forgotten art of Kirk-fu), bringing up the Original version is fine aslong and the person who starts the debate (or in the case of a two person debate both) agree to it however in horror that was your Darkstar debate it wasnt stated at the start meaning official policy stands thus the original version isnt evidence (you did however agree to that EU provision of his before hand meaning that was valid).

Hmm paragraphs are my friend

.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-10-24 11:01am

Darth Wong wrote:
Commander LeoRo wrote:That one quote was in direct reference to what constituted the "real" story of Star Wars. Considering the fact that GL views the Special Editions as his definitive OT you can't blatantly argue the opposite reasonably. Like I said though, you had him beat with the MCR/Superlaser Effect portion. The EU argument was Darkstar's strongest area. It was a close debate, but I think he pulled off a victory in that one area. I'm biased though, I prefer the OT to the EU.
A lot of people do. But that has nothing to do with the "historical revisionism" comment re: Greedo's shot (which was classic vs SE, and was a single-paragraph sidebar to the "EU inclusion" issue).

Not to poke you for being as stupid as Darkstar (I can't imagine that anyone is), but how about some basic logic, ie- you can't prove A by proving B? Look up "red herring". You can't dump the EU by proving that the SE's overrule the originals. Even if they do, that has nothing to do with the EU, which is neither SE or original, and which is still quasi-canon.

Methinks you must really dislike the EU to use that sentence as an excuse to claim Darkstar won that entire portion of the debate.

I agree with you that the issue of historical revisionism cannot be used to dump the entire EU. I see your point on that matter. I should clarify what I meant then. I believe Darkstar provided enough evidence and argued well enough (even though he is very long winded) to prove his point that the EU is not part of the canon Star Wars universe, therefore, the EU should not be used in a debate between two different canon universes. The historical revisionism comment was the final straw that tipped the scales in Darkstar's favor on that portion of the debate alone. You are correct in point out my bias against the EU. That certainly affected my perception of that part of the debate. The reasons why I don't particulary like the EU is another discussion in itself. I enjoy select parts of the EU, but I don't like what has happened within it on a large scale.

As far as the MCR/Superlaser Effect is concerned, I have believed (and continue to believe) that the Death Star was powerful enough to destroy entire planets. There is no reason to invent another mechanism in order to explain the destruction. I think your defense of the classical theory was superb. That only problem that the classical theory is the "band" that encircles and expands from the planet. I'm not really sure what to make of that, but classical theory still makes more sense.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-10-24 11:51am

Commander LeoRo wrote:I'm biased though, I prefer the OT to the EU.

No, you are biased in anything that harms SW. Thats why you and your lacke are always piping up in the PSW forum about how the shields are flawed, the Imperials only have 1000 ships, ECM, etc...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-24 12:27pm

Oh well, I think the point here is that even Trekkies like Alyeska, TheDarkling, and LeoRo don't buy Darkstar's DeathStar bullshit, which was his prize jewel.

As for dumping the EU, they see what they want to see. If it's not enough for GL to say it intrudes on his world or for the SWE to say it's quasi-canon, nothing you or I say will sway them.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-10-24 12:31pm

Maybe we should make an EU thread- and decide the topic of how much the EU hurts the SW case, as opposed to how it helps.

Damn funny that there's plenty in the films alone to damn Trek totally anyway.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-10-24 01:21pm

Ender wrote:
Commander LeoRo wrote:I'm biased though, I prefer the OT to the EU.
No, you are biased in anything that harms SW. Thats why you and your lacke are always piping up in the PSW forum about how the shields are flawed, the Imperials only have 1000 ships, ECM, etc...

Actually, I have changed my mind about the Empire only having 1000 ships. I believe the Empire had to have several thousand ships in order to maintain control of the galaxy ( or at least most of it). How many Star Destroyers and other battleships do they have? I don't trust the WEG figure of 25,000 thousand. I still can't see why the Empire could have fallen at the end of ROTJ if they had enough Star Destroyers to maintain control of the core worlds (25,000 should be enough). There certainly would not have been people rejoicing in the streets and tossing stormtroopers like playthings if that were the case. In that sense, I don't like the EU because for many years the Empire was dead after ROTJ. Zahn came along in 95' or so and revived an Empire that had been defeated already.

This is what I meant by only liking select parts of the EU. I enjoyed Zahn's books for the most part, however, some elements of his stories went way off track from GL's original vision. That is why I view the EU as existing separately from GL's OT. In the "absolute canon" the Empire obviously died (as is portrayed at the end of ROTJ). In the EU (another parallel universe) the Empire was revived. I don't see why some people have a problem with that viewpoint. It doesn't hurt or help Star Wars in versus debates. It is just a personal preference.

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Who won the Mike/RSA debate?

Who won the debate?

Re: Who won the Mike/RSA debate?