Subspace Transporters?

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-05 04:52am

what exactly are you refering to now?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-05 05:00am

You mean with the missing from two feet thing?

If so then Greedo missing Han Solo because in the special edition New Hope Greedo shoots first and misses even though they are about a table from each other.

Aparently GL didnt like the original version where Han Solo shot first because it made him look ruthless.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-05 05:13am

Yeah. Maybe Greedo's a bad marksman. Maybe it was only a warning shot. And? I don't see your point.

IDMR · Post by **IDMR** » 2002-07-05 05:13am

TheDarkling wrote:According to the site blind transporting is possible but could land you inside a wall so transporting inside a ship wouldnt be possible with out a big risk unless precise layout was known which is unlikely since the level of detail would need to be the same as the death star plans stolen in episode 4.

However transporting into open space within a shield would work and so long range planetary bombardment is possible, im not sure on how much space exists between hull and shield on ships so cant judge effectiveness on that count and the added fact that the targets could move erratically adds more problems .

This site you spoke of, may we have a link to it?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-05 05:26am

Bad shot would be an under statement and if it was only a warning shot why put it in the film - GL stated the purpose was to offset Han's darkness but since it was really self defense anyway I cant see why it was necessary.

Also if Greedos a bad marksman he was probably in the wrong line of work.

IDMR : Transporters require very precise information about the transport site. Without accurate scans, a transported subject is likely to materialize partially inside another piece of matter (the ground on a planetary surface, or a bulkhead, wall, or door in a starship). This would be instantly fatal, so sensor-jamming can effectively block transporters even in the event of shield failure.

Its from Stardestroyer.net under special technology.

At first I thought sensor data was needed or transport could not occur however the above quote implies its possible but unwise.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-07-05 05:33am

Have you read the 'Capture crippled Star Destroyer' combat scenario on this site? It involves blind transporting.
And I agree that Credo's a bad marksman. And maybe George included this shot because he didn't want Han to appear ruthless.
But if Greedo's accuracy is bad and he wants to be a Bounty Hunter, and, as a result, gets toasted, then that's just bad luck for him isn't it?

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-05 05:45am

that was me.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-05 05:56am

I never said it wasnt Greedo's choice to set himself up as target pratice I just said it was very hard to believe anyone could miss from that range and that it was a bad move on GL's part to change it from how he originally did it - you cant improve on perfection after all.

The blind transporting in that scenario isnt complete because limited sensor scans are achieved due to the weakening of the ships armour.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-05 06:39am

Ok, Greedo's shot wasn't necessary. Oh well.

Right, the blind transporting wasn't complete.

Nonetheless, the usefulness of transporters in combat is zero.
They can't beam thru shields, and in the extremely unlikely event of a shield failure any Imperial vessel could easily escape with the hyperdrive.
The exotic subspace transportes will most likely be stopped by shields and jamming equipment.

Even IF they wouldn't be stopped by the shields and thejamming equipment, the jamming would prevent the Feds from getting clear scans, in conclusion they would have to do blind beaming.
And since the process of subspace beaming is very energy intensive, in the worst case for the imperials (ie imperial shielding and jamming does not affect subspace transporters), the Feds would only be able to destroy 1 or perhaps 2 vessels before the Imps would develop feasible countermeasures against it.
There must be something which stops subspace transports, because if it was unstoppable, they'd constantly use it on Trek.

As such, in the absolutely worst case, the Empire will lose 1 or 2 ships.

Conclusion: Subspace transport is not a feasible tactic to defeat the Empire in combat.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-05 06:58am

The reason they dont get constantly used on trek is because the writter the following week couldnt remember them or if you prefer an in universe idea it simply isnt necessary since regular transporters work fine for normal transports and beaming over crew during a battle means draining off reserve power (A stretch).

Im not sure how modifying would work to block them since its the trek engineers who can make a super weapon from spit and two short sticks and I have heard many trekies getting bashed for saying such things.

It is energy intensive but can be done from light years away so it would be the longest ranged attack I have heard of.

Also it isnt just combat it would be very useful in turning planets into rumble from long distance - its a lot harder to protect a sphere with a radius of several light years than it is to protect one with a 40,000 km radius.

Truthfully Imps arent great independant thinkers since doing anything other than what they are told gets you a force choke in return with the exception of the higher ranks and everyones favourite Chiss.

Would it win a war? no Imps speed advantage and industrial might is too great but if the plan worked a battle could be won and imps would have to tie up large numbers to defend just one planet.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-05 08:20am

Ok, lets make a few things clear.
1.
The scenario I constructed was a worst-case scenario to show that even if they had no defence against subspace transpot yet, the Empire would still win.
However, they do have a defense:
Imperial shielding and jamming will doubtless prevent transporting, regardless of wether it relies on some exotic subspace effect or not.
2.
The subspace transport MUST have a serious weakness.
Otherwise, the Enterprise would just beam explosives over on every ship they intend to destroy, using this subspace transport.
3.
Hoping to catch the Imps with their shields down from several light years away and beaming bombs over is also impossible, because their sensor range exceeds several light years.

Btw, the most extreme long range weapon still is the Galaxy Gun.
If you don't know what it is, just go to technology/ imperial special tech
on this site.

I hope that finally made clear that transporters won't be of any use when fighting the Empire.

Now the last point: Imp and ST engineers
Imperial engineers constructed such technological marvels as the Death Stars, Executor class command ships, Eclipse class command ships, Sun Crushers, and Galaxy Guns.
ST engineers constructed such technological marvels as unstable M/AM reactors that go off if you look at them the wrong way, crude transporting devices which kill a living being and reassemble an exact copy of it, etc.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-05 08:36am

Wookies Constructed the Death star and Geonosians designed it (or so it would appear).

No becausethey Enterprise doesnt strike first and as I said the power drani MAY affect shields or because it use sthe Sub space coils maybe it cant Warp while in use (However the only problem mentioned is power concerns).

According to trek nothing they can do can stop it yet you say Imp shields can block it - why?

Scanning isnt necessary if using blind beaming.

Since Shields may be ineffective it doesnt matter if the Imps have Shields up or not.

The galaxy gun was a one of every ship has the ability to use a subspace transporter.

Your Anti-Trek bias is showing im afraid.

If Star treks technology isnt allowed in Vs discusions its no wonder Trek cant win - Trek doesnt use brute force like the empire hey use problem solving and specialised tech to each situation.

The entire argument is biased towards Wars side if you play by your rules.
Since in wars ships duke it out but in almost every Trek batle it comes down to smoe special Gizmo etc to disallow all of those for no reason would be like saying laser weapony just doesnt affect Trek ships - which we know is false.

I simply came here and presented smoething I hadnt seen discussed before and your have instead tried toput down the theory without evidence simply because of your bias - I asked if it would work and at first peolpe said what about this, and I looked around and answered them with evidence.

I didnt just say your wrong end of story.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-05 09:08am

Ok. First of all:
You said yourself subspace shielding can stop it.
Subspace and Hyperspace seem to be related effects.
Conclusion:
Hyperspace jamming equipment will affect subspace.
Next point:
You spoke about the most extreme long range attack weapon.
This is the galaxy gun, regardless of wether it was unique or not.
Next:
It doesn't matter if the Enterprise strikes first or not.
If it's unstoppable, they could use it after their opponent has made the first strike.
But they don't. Why? Because it doesn't work.
And I think it's most likely Imperial shields will stop it, because they use powerful multi-stage shielding, which doesn't depend on frequency modulation and such.
The whole point of this discussion is:
If it is unstoppable, why don't they use it constantly?
The fact that it may drain the shields or other systems is unsatisfying since you would be able to defeat your foes immediately.
Another problem: In the show it's clearly quoted it's an unstable procedure.
It sounds more like an experimental device to me than something everyone with a starship and a conventional transporter sysem can deploy at will.
And again, I will say:
The empire actually has subspace sensors.
look at the tech page / imperial sensors
for that if you don't belive me.
And if they have subspace sensors, they in conclusion will have subspace jamming equipment.
You said yourself at the very beginning of the post that " a subspace shield or something like that" was a way stop the subspace transporter.
Since the empire has subspace jamming equipment, they will be able to block subspace transport.
And last but not least:
Right, the people of ST rely on fancy tricks to win.
But fancy tricks won't help you against an enemy who has so much raw power like the empire.

Btw, I did not intend to flame you.
And I'm biased towards SW, because, surprise, I'm a SW fan!

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-05 09:39am

Im a fan of both notable exception, Voyager - erwww.

The tech page says Subspace sensors are 25,000 years old so I doubt they are still in use.

Now you may say ifthe imp had those so long ago they will be able to interfere with subspace - now while you imp ships may have had subspace in the distant past (ok OR ships then) then probably will not use them now due to the extreme age.

The new jammers may not be as effective if at all against subspace signals etc an example of this would be Kevlar - its more modern than a suit of armour but a suit of armour is better against swords.

I have just rewatched the episode and the only way to stop the subspace transporter wasnt a shield as I thought (sorry I hadnt watched it in ages) it was infact to lock onto the person being beamed using a subspace transporter of your own - this only worker against snatching people from ships not beaming objects on against which there was no defence.

The Subspace transporter took less then 15 mins to rig up and the draw backs where it was Unstable and energy intensive - however the instability wasnt apparent during its use in the show meaning that it may be due to repeat exposure which wouldnt be a problem for bombs (Of course that is only theorising on my part).

On the galaxy gun issue - I meant mainstream weapon but I agree I was not clear on this point.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-05 09:42am

Subspace Sensors are still in use. Let me find the quote.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-05 09:55am

I found it :

The ludicrous nature of the Federation cultists' sensor claims is most apparent when one realized that their most advanced sensor technology is subspace-based (ref. TM). However, not only do we possess subspace technology (which we still use for inexpensive short-range communications gear) but subspace sensors were used in our galaxy during the time of Xim the Despot, before the dawn of the Old Republic 25,000 years ago, as described in Han Solo and the Lost Legacy:

However starfleet can use subspace jammers the enterprise Subspace field also had no effect on the transport however active jamming may enable the imps to stop the technology it just depends on how closley related comns are to transporters.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-05 09:57am

No starfleet cant use subspace jammers although comns can be blancketed it isnt jamming.

Thats what happens when you cut and paste in the middle of a sentence I guess.

IDMR · Post by **IDMR** » 2002-07-05 10:01am

TheDarkling wrote:<Snip>

IDMR : <Snip>

Its from Stardestroyer.net under special technology.

<Snip>

That would have sufficed, thank you very much.

::goes off to read it::

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-05 10:04am

Noted for future reference.

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-05 01:39pm

Does anyone find it interesting that the Imperials can put up jamming against subspace transporters? I suppose that kind of knowledge is similar to that which would allow Federation ships to set up hyperspace interdiction fields, yes?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-05 02:11pm

The federation couldnt set up Hyperspace interdiction fields because they dont understand Hyperspace tech or how it works.

Star wars have had Subspace tech in the past and so understand it.

However they do not understand transporter technology so setting up a jammer would be differcult since they are in the dark abit.

It may not be possible to Jam subspace transporters - the federation didnt know how and they are more well versed in subspace technology than the imps.

Surpose the imps get past these two road blocks and yes its possible and they manage to set up a properley configured Jammer there is no guarantee they would be able to do this on the fly - I doubt Imp ships block subspace since only short range personal comns units use it - no exactly that important to block those - especially ship to ship.

These comns units probably have a very low power output next to a transporter (this is infered in that they are very small and only used person to person) and thus jammers wouldnt be powerful enough to stop subspace transporters.

Assuming the Imps can skip all of these steps they would still take heavy hits the first time tyhe Feds used these tactic since I doubt they could figure out what was happening and how to stop it - Trek has scientists on the front line not the Imps.

Now if the Feds could use this effect to destroy all the ships in a fleet this ploy would work until someone altered HQ to the problem - then analysis and a solution would have to come down from on high.

So I think this tactic would work but it doesnt seem anyone else does, of course they may something I dont know.

John Clarke · Post by **John Clarke** » 2002-07-05 02:19pm

Yes, Darkling, they do know something you don't know, and here it is:

The Empire is superior in every way.

Their ships travel thousands of times faster than Federation ships (even though to do so requires precise navigational information which would be unavailable to them during their attempts at a first strike)

Their weaponry is far more powerful -- so much so that, with the proper calculation, one of their hand weapons can be determined to deliver nearly a kiloton of destructive energy.

They can instantly and effortlessly secure detailed military, commercial, political, astronomical and cultural information on entire quadrants of their target territory without first engaging in any activity that puts their personnel or plan at risk or alert any military or goverment personnel in any way whatsoever.

So you see, Darkling, you were actually wrong before you even stated an opinion or voiced a position.

Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » 2002-07-05 02:23pm

John Clarke wrote:Yes, Darkling, they do know something you don't know, and here it is:

The Empire is superior in every way.

Their ships travel thousands of times faster than Federation ships (even though to do so requires precise navigational information which would be unavailable to them during their attempts at a first strike)

Their weaponry is far more powerful -- so much so that, with the proper calculation, one of their hand weapons can be determined to deliver nearly a kiloton of destructive energy.

They can instantly and effortlessly secure detailed military, commercial, political, astronomical and cultural information on entire quadrants of their target territory without first engaging in any activity that puts their personnel or plan at risk or alert any military or goverment personnel in any way whatsoever.

So you see, Darkling, you were actually wrong before you even stated an opinion or voiced a position.

Grow up... Do you REALLY enjoy trolling all that much??

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-05 02:25pm

John Clarke wrote:Yes, Darkling, they do know something you don't know, and here it is:

The Empire is superior in every way.

Their ships travel thousands of times faster than Federation ships (even though to do so requires precise navigational information which would be unavailable to them during their attempts at a first strike)

Do you know how easy it would be to get a MAP?!

[q]Their weaponry is far more powerful -- so much so that, with the proper calculation, one of their hand weapons can be determined to deliver nearly a kiloton of destructive energy.[/q]

No one claimed that you fucking lier.

They can instantly and effortlessly secure detailed military, commercial, political, astronomical and cultural information on entire quadrants of their target territory without first engaging in any activity that puts their personnel or plan at risk or alert any military or goverment personnel in any way whatsoever.

So you see, Darkling, you were actually wrong before you even stated an opinion or voiced a position.

Getting the location of Federation worlds are easy. Then you can scout them out.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-05 02:28pm

I always did wonder about mapping since I always thought the trade routes in the star wars universe were there to facilitate moving without hitting a Grav well.

Whats the Sensor range on an Imp ship?
because the only range I can find says several light hours but that could just be very detailed scanning.