A theory on the bad warp core design

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-27 06:43am

Looks like the stardrive of a galaxy class to me, do we have canon evidence of Ambassadors having saucer seperation? although it still doesnt look like an Ambassador to me.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-27 06:47am

I just took a look at an Ambassador here http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/artic ... op-box.jpg and as you can see the stardrive section is rounded at the back, the ship we see here (in the caps I posted) is clearly squared off.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-10-27 06:49am

hmmm looks a bit like a gcs without saucer but isn't that thing just exploding?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-27 07:08am

No its on fire but it isnt exploding (not undergoing a warp core breech is the point here) we see the ship for a good 3 or 4 seconds and theres just the constant glow from the fires.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-10-27 07:11am

Well there's still the possibility (considering it's separated and on fire) that the core had already been ejected.
Or it's like mike said that they became safer and less powerful at DS 9.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-27 07:17am

Well while looking for caps of the galaxy I did some reading on the War Galaxy (Alyeska seems to be the man to talk to about such things since most of the threads were started by him or had major imput from him) and it seemed that a War Galaxy class destryoed a Galor class in one phaser shot - that isnt exactly a power down.

Its simply possible that the Feds fixed what seemed to be a GCS problem only in the war Galaxy upgrades.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-10-27 07:33am

Simply being able to fin a few examples of a GCS NOT exploding upon being tapped does not mean they have fixed the problem. If 747's had as bad a record as the GCS would you travel on one?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-27 07:38am

How many examples do we have of Galaxy class starships going warp core critical and what caused them?

The fact that we have examples where they take damage and dont explode either shows that A)They were never 100% unstable like we thought (we have 2 or 3 warp core breaches on GCS's right?) B)The ship we saw got very very luckly C)They fixed or reduced the problem.

I actually interested in looking at the examples of warp core failure on a GCS to see if I cant remember any, someone want to indulge me?

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-10-27 07:45am

I don't know Darkling still looks like an Ambassador. The nacelles seem to give it away. Too damn pixelated to be sure, but we can't even see the back from that angle.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-27 10:35am

Doesnt look like one to my eyes but i've seen it in motion where we get to see it from a slightly altered angel - however if you look its flat along the back edge and not a V like the Ambassador.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-10-27 10:59am

Agreed.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-10-27 11:21am

TheDarkling wrote:How many examples do we have of Galaxy class starships going warp core critical and what caused them?

The fact that we have examples where they take damage and dont explode either shows that A)They were never 100% unstable like we thought (we have 2 or 3 warp core breaches on GCS's right?) B)The ship we saw got very very luckly C)They fixed or reduced the problem.

I actually interested in looking at the examples of warp core failure on a GCS to see if I cant remember any, someone want to indulge me?

They still explode in a big ball of flames at least roughly 50% of the time.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-27 11:27am

The only ship class we have seen breach from a tapis the GCS now if we have seen GCS's that dont explode from a tap htem its possible they have fixed it.

As for the other ships - w see other ship classes take helllish beating and they dont go up so the unstable warp core is/was only a GCS problem applying it to other ships is by and large a fallacy.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-10-27 11:38am

TheDarkling wrote:Well while looking for caps of the galaxy I did some reading on the War Galaxy (Alyeska seems to be the man to talk to about such things since most of the threads were started by him or had major imput from him) and it seemed that a War Galaxy class destryoed a Galor class in one phaser shot - that isnt exactly a power down.

Its simply possible that the Feds fixed what seemed to be a GCS problem only in the war Galaxy upgrades.

Heh, thanks. I have taken an interest in the War GCS. I rather like the ship, especially the Venture variant.

However, IIRC there was never an example of a GCS destroying a Galor outright in a single hit. Rather we saw two GCSs with rapid fire phasers cripple a Galor in 6 shots, and these are with the Dominion upgraded Galor's. So thats a fair amount of firepower. Its even remotely possible the GCS phasers had enough power that they were causing significant damage through the Galor's shields since it was taking damage almost instantly.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-10-27 11:44am

NecronLord wrote:Simply being able to fin a few examples of a GCS NOT exploding upon being tapped does not mean they have fixed the problem. If 747's had as bad a record as the GCS would you travel on one?

Ok, we have three Galaxy class ships with a known problem. The Enterprise had warp core problems quite often. The most noteable examples were the time loop episode and Generations. Although to be fair, the E-D did take moderate levels of damage and had high levels of hull scorring on its stardrive section. The second example is the Yamato, which was actually killed by a computer virus that breached the containment system on the ship, so its not an exceptionally good example either. The last example is the Oddessy when it exploded violently after being impacted by a Jem'Hadar attackship.

So we have a minor core history with the E-D, a virus with the Yamato, and a collision with the Oddessy. It would seem the class does indeed have some issues. When looking at other ships you can see the other Fed ships using GCS parts have not had this history.

After those three GCSs, we have not scene a single one with this problem. The unnamed GCS at the second battle of Chin'Toka was a floating hulk, the USS Galaxy took major damage to its engineering section but continued fighting. We saw plenty of GCSs operating in the thick of battle yet were not showing signs of battle damage (last two scenes from Sacrafice Angels).

Then we have the canon examples of the Armored Spine GCS and the Enlarged Shuttlebay GCS. It seems that Starfleet is fielding newer versions of the GCS, and with the level of modifications they have on the outside, why would they not fix the warpcore problem on the inside?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-10-27 11:55am

No evidence to say that they have fixed the problems

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-10-27 12:16pm

NecronLord wrote:No evidence to say that they have fixed the problems

We have a consistant problem with the E-D (almost like clockwork) and an example with the Oddessy. Then we see GCSs taking massive damage and no problems. We have known examples of GCS modifications. On the contrary, there is plenty of logical evidence that they did indeed fix the problem, just no direct statments.

I find it interesting how some people here place a great deal of emphasis on visual information to make their interpretations, but the moment a visual goes against what they claim they want statements of fact instead.

We have visual information indicating a GCS problem. Then we have visual information indicating said problem no longer exists. Do the math.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-10-27 12:24pm

E-D working almost like a clockwork?

geez.... you can't be serious about that, there were many instances where the ship was near a core breach and only saved by character shields or technobabble cop out.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-27 12:25pm

The warp core problem was like clockwork

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-10-27 12:28pm

D'OH!
got that wrong....

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-10-27 12:30pm

Alyeska wrote:
NecronLord wrote:No evidence to say that they have fixed the problems
We have a consistant problem with the E-D (almost like clockwork) and an example with the Oddessy. Then we see GCSs taking massive damage and no problems. We have known examples of GCS modifications. On the contrary, there is plenty of logical evidence that they did indeed fix the problem, just no direct statments.

I find it interesting how some people here place a great deal of emphasis on visual information to make their interpretations, but the moment a visual goes against what they claim they want statements of fact instead.

We have visual information indicating a GCS problem. Then we have visual information indicating said problem no longer exists. Do the math.

No-one has claimed that it goes off 100% of the time, however thare is a huge pile of evidence that says the ting was heinously designed.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-10-27 12:51pm

NecronLord wrote:No-one has claimed that it goes off 100% of the time, however thare is a huge pile of evidence that says the ting was heinously designed.

You have several examples from a single ship, and a single example from another ship. Then suddenly all of those problems cease to be a problem and we never see a GCS with said problem again. We have seen GCSs with modifications, and it is not hard to see the logical possibility that the warp core design problem was fixed as well.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-10-27 01:17pm

Alyeska wrote:
NecronLord wrote:No-one has claimed that it goes off 100% of the time, however thare is a huge pile of evidence that says the ting was heinously designed.
You have several examples from a single ship, and a single example from another ship. Then suddenly all of those problems cease to be a problem and we never see a GCS with said problem again. We have seen GCSs with modifications, and it is not hard to see the logical possibility that the warp core design problem was fixed as well.

But wait, we also have examples on voyager. though not as many from the Defiant. However the fact remains that while a possibility there is no evidence to support your supposition.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-27 01:25pm

NecronLord wrote:But wait, we also have examples on voyager. though not as many from the Defiant. However the fact remains that while a possibility there is no evidence to support your supposition.

The Defiant being intended to go into combat would place survivability over sheer performance. It's a matter of priorities on this one.

Voyager did indeed have problems, probably because it was designed on with the same priority's as the GCS.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-10-27 02:01pm

NecronLord wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
NecronLord wrote:No-one has claimed that it goes off 100% of the time, however thare is a huge pile of evidence that says the ting was heinously designed.
You have several examples from a single ship, and a single example from another ship. Then suddenly all of those problems cease to be a problem and we never see a GCS with said problem again. We have seen GCSs with modifications, and it is not hard to see the logical possibility that the warp core design problem was fixed as well.
But wait, we also have examples on voyager. though not as many from the Defiant. However the fact remains that while a possibility there is no evidence to support your supposition.

We have fewer Voyager examples, and we have the Year of Hell example as to how much damage the ship can take.