Empire Hated? Pah

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

We rewlly need an edit buton.

It was disabled in several forums to stop people from changing their argument completly.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Well, these may be irrelevant, but here's my opinion according to what I've seen in SW movie:

First:
If we take average Imperial citizen, like uncle Owen family in Tatooine, no one seems to mention their dislike to the Empire. Not even Luke. He just wanted to "go to the academy", not to "join the Rebellion". (Well, in the ANH script Biggs and Luke talked about joining the Rebels, but that part was abandoned from final movie. Are scripts considered canon?)

Second:
Why the Stormtroopers have to pretend to be Sandpeople when slaughtering the Jawas and Luke's family?
This may lead to another question:
Yes, the Emperor is a dictator, but what kind of dictatorship? Is the Empire a brutal dictatorship that slaughter its people on regular basis ala Idi Amin's Uganda or DuVailler's Haiti? Or maybe it's more like Malaysia (Yes.. Mahathir IS a dictator..), where AVERAGE people lives peaceful and content, and even prosper (as long as they don't opposse the government).
Now, back to the topic: If the Empire was hated and feared by its regular citizen, why should the Stormies bother to mimick the Sandpeople at all? Just slaughter them, and the neighbors will say: "Oh, the poor Owen family's got visited by Stormies... tommorow, who's next?"
Instead, the Stormtroopers slaughtered the Jawas and uncle Owen in covert operation, ala GOVERNMENT CONSPIRATORS in "X-Files" or "Enemy of the State".
(Note that if we believe in X-Files, then the US Government could be as bad as the Empire.)
In fact, if Luke had never been told by Obi-Wan, he may run to the nearest authority (in this case, Stormtroopers) and whine, "Sandpeople slaughtered my family!!! Help me!!!!" The Stormtroopers will respond kindly, but then take the droids and kill Luke in most covert manner ala X-Files ("Poor boy, his family just been slaughtered by the Sandpeople. He just couldn't take it, and committed suicide. If we just could stop him earlier...")

Now, I'm not even trying to prove that the Empire is NOT hated by its people. Some citizens may actually hate the Empire (ala Anwar Ibrahim's sympathizer in Malaysia).
I'm just asking questions: is the Empire really HATED as Darkling claimed? (The Empire is hated, the Federation is loved) Is the Empire a kind of "terror government" like the EU often mentioned? (NR Propaganda?) How about AVERAGE citizens? Regular people who go to work, have vacation, go clubbing at night, and such? Do they HATE the Empire?

How about people who don't care about politics and just want to live prosper, with a happy family? How about managers in Sienar Fleet System who think more about salary, bonuses, and office politics than Tarkin's Doctrine? How about students in Coruscant University who care less about Rebellion than their GPA? How about disgruntled worker in Kuat Drive Yard who hates his boss much more than the Emperor?
They are all regular citizen. Question: Do they have problem with the Empire?

Note: Yup, some people in Coruscant went crazy when the Emperor was killed (ROTJ Special Edition), but did they represent most of Coruscant population? Maybe other Coruscant citizen may have different political views than those shown in the movie?

Here's another question: If Han never meet Chewbacca, and thus never been "fired" from Imperial Navy, will he hate the Empire?

[Crazy_Vasey]

Here's another question: If Han never meet Chewbacca, and thus never been "fired" from Imperial Navy, will he hate the Empire?

I think something else would happened eventually to force him out. we know the imps perform unsavoury tasks from time to time and I don't think he would go along with it.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Note: Yup, some people in Coruscant went crazy when the Emperor was killed (ROTJ Special Edition), but did they represent most of Coruscant population? Maybe other Coruscant citizen may have different political views than those shown in the movie?

They were afterall a few thousand out of trillions on the planet.

Here's another question: If Han never meet Chewbacca, and thus never been "fired" from Imperial Navy, will he hate the Empire?

Nope.

[Smiling Bandit]

First:
If we take average Imperial citizen, like uncle Owen family in Tatooine, no one seems to mention their dislike to the Empire. Not even Luke. He just wanted to "go to the academy", not to "join the Rebellion". (Well, in the ANH script Biggs and Luke talked about joining the Rebels, but that part was abandoned from final movie. Are scripts considered canon?)

I quote here:
Luke:
Look, I don't like the Empire; I hate it!
endquote.

He didn't like the Empire. But the Empire didn't own the academy outright, I think. It was just the prime spot for training in many proffessions like piloting.

Second:
Why the Stormtroopers have to pretend to be Sandpeople when slaughtering the Jawas and Luke's family?

It isn't a good idea to go around murdering your subjects, even if you are a galaxy-spanning Emporer. That is exactly the kind of thing that leads to huge rebellions.

This may lead to another question:
Yes, the Emperor is a dictator, but what kind of dictatorship? Is the Empire a brutal dictatorship that slaughter its people on regular basis ala Idi Amin's Uganda or DuVailler's Haiti? Or maybe it's more like Malaysia (Yes.. Mahathir IS a dictator..), where AVERAGE people lives peaceful and content, and even prosper (as long as they don't opposse the government).
Now, back to the topic: If the Empire was hated and feared by its regular citizen, why should the Stormies bother to mimick the Sandpeople at all? Just slaughter them, and the neighbors will say: "Oh, the poor Owen family's got visited by Stormies... tommorow, who's next?"
Instead, the Stormtroopers slaughtered the Jawas and uncle Owen in covert operation, ala GOVERNMENT CONSPIRATORS in "X-Files" or "Enemy of the State".

I'd say that most people on most worlds would not be brutalized by Imperial forces. But you had better not be one of the ones chosen to get picked on. The Empire is hated probably because of a few nasty incidents. Yes, he keeps the peace, but the Emporer almost certainly engages in crulty and viscious behavior to retain his rule. The concept of loyal opposition is not something he appreciates.

In fact, if Luke had never been told by Obi-Wan, he may run to the nearest authority (in this case, Stormtroopers) and whine, "Sandpeople slaughtered my family!!! Help me!!!!" The Stormtroopers will respond kindly, but then take the droids and kill Luke in most covert manner ala X-Files ("Poor boy, his family just been slaughtered by the Sandpeople. He just couldn't take it, and committed suicide. If we just could stop him earlier...")

The STorms thought the droids were at the household. If Imperial stromtroopers walk up and demanded the droids, yes, the metal-men would have been theirs. But these guys were obviously going for a zero-knowledge deal. No-one was to know of what went on.

Now, I'm not even trying to prove that the Empire is NOT hated by its people. Some citizens may actually hate the Empire (ala Anwar Ibrahim's sympathizer in Malaysia).
I'm just asking questions: is the Empire really HATED as Darkling claimed? (The Empire is hated, the Federation is loved) Is the Empire a kind of "terror government" like the EU often mentioned? (NR Propaganda?) How about AVERAGE citizens? Regular people who go to work, have vacation, go clubbing at night, and such? Do they HATE the Empire?

How about people who don't care about politics and just want to live prosper, with a happy family? How about managers in Sienar Fleet System who think more about salary, bonuses, and office politics than Tarkin's Doctrine? How about students in Coruscant University who care less about Rebellion than their GPA? How about disgruntled worker in Kuat Drive Yard who hates his boss much more than the Emperor?
They are all regular citizen. Question: Do they have problem with the Empire?

[Smiling Bandit]

Note that I am not saying people should like the Federation: everything seems too smooth and plastic and artificial for me. Just saying that Star Wars is an ancient Republic which was then turnded into a fascist dictatorship overnight. Unlike Germany, there was not only a hitsory, but a proud tradition of Demokratoi.

[Romulan_nemesis]

Hate the Empire?

We all love the Empire!

Speak for yourself hehe

Rommie

[Master of Ossus]

Note that I am not saying people should like the Federation: everything seems too smooth and plastic and artificial for me. Just saying that Star Wars is an ancient Republic which was then turnded into a fascist dictatorship overnight. Unlike Germany, there was not only a hitsory, but a proud tradition of Demokratoi.

Actually, Germany also turned into a dictatorship more or less overnight, when Hitler was installed as Fuhrer. Germany also had something of a history of being democratic, and Hitler had to be voted into office before he even thought about seizing control of the entire country.

[Darth_Shinji]

We rewlly need an edit buton.

It was disabled in several forums to stop people from changing their argument completly.

I can see the reasoning. But it still sucks.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

We rewlly need an edit buton.

It was disabled in several forums to stop people from changing their argument completly.

I can see the reasoning. But it still sucks.

Ask me to fix it. I will..sometimes

[Master of Ossus]

Yeah, if you want something changed, it should be up to the moderators to find out if it would alter anything, or if you're just trying to add another point or fix some typos. But you shouldn't be allowed to post something and then change your argument so no one can attack you.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

First:
If we take average Imperial citizen, like uncle Owen family in Tatooine, no one seems to mention their dislike to the Empire. Not even Luke. He just wanted to "go to the academy", not to "join the Rebellion". (Well, in the ANH script Biggs and Luke talked about joining the Rebels, but that part was abandoned from final movie. Are scripts considered canon?)
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I quote here:
Luke:
Look, I don't like the Empire; I hate it!
endquote.

He didn't like the Empire. But the Empire didn't own the academy outright, I think. It was just the prime spot for training in many proffessions like piloting.

I remember that line now:

BEN: I need your help, Luke. She needs your help. I'm getting too old
for this sort of thing.

LUKE: I can't get involved! I've got work to do! It's not that I like
the Empire. I hate it! But there's nothing I can do about it right
now. It's such a long way from here.


But Luke's word about hating the Empire happened after this conversation:

LUKE: How did my father die?

BEN: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he
turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi
Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all
but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force.


There can be various reason of Luke's hatred to the Empire, and two of them are:
1. Because people in the Empire are generally terrorized and oppressed by the government (the Empire). Therefore, average people like Luke *hate* the Empire.
2. Because the Empire hunted down and destroyed Jedi Knights, while his father was one of them. Also, it is possible that Luke often talked with Obi-Wan before (thus he was told "how bad the Empire is" repeatedly).

Unfortunately we cannot prove which reason dominates Luke's motivation for his hatred against the Empire. Anyone?

He didn't like the Empire. But the Empire didn't own the academy outright, I think. It was just the prime spot for training in many proffessions like piloting.

No one saying that the Empire own the academy. My point is that an average citizen like Luke is more concerned with his own business (in this case, going to the academy) than hating the Empire. "Going to the academy" is not the same as "become a TIE Fighter Pilot".

The STorms thought the droids were at the household. If Imperial stromtroopers walk up and demanded the droids, yes, the metal-men would have been theirs. But these guys were obviously going for a zero-knowledge deal. No-one was to know of what went on.

"But these guys were obviously going for a zero-knowledge deal." Same case with the NSA agents in "Enemy of the State". They never walk up and demand the videotape either. I think this kind of government conspirator-style murder is *not* an indication of terror government. In fact, why bother covering your civilian-slaughtering operation if you are already a terror government?

I'd say that most people on most worlds would not be brutalized by Imperial forces. But you had better not be one of the ones chosen to get picked on. The Empire is hated probably because of a few nasty incidents. Yes, he keeps the peace, but the Emporer almost certainly engages in crulty and viscious behavior to retain his rule. The concept of loyal opposition is not something he appreciates.

"The Empire is hated probably because of a few nasty incidents." I agree with that. I don't think the Empire is hated by most of its population because it terrorizes its people on regular basis (ala Idi Amin's Uganda). IMHO, the Empire is hated only by some people who stands on its way (Rebels, corrupted senators, smugglers, son of a Jedi Knight, etc).

"The concept of loyal opposition is not something he appreciates." Agreed. We all know that the Emperor *is* a dictator. The question is: does every dictatorship government automatically synonymous with terror government?

So I think the Empire is not hated by the majority of the population. It is not a terror government, either. I think the Empire is more akin to Malaysia or South Korea (during Chun Do Hwan era) than Uganda or Haiti.

[TheDarkling]

Did Luke know his father was a Jedi knight?

I seem to remember him saying his father wasnt involved in the Clone wars and that he was a navigator on a spice ship.

[Master of Ossus]

Did Luke know his father was a Jedi knight?

I seem to remember him saying his father wasnt involved in the Clone wars and that he was a navigator on a spice ship.

That was what he thought, before Obi-Wan (or, Ben, at the time) corrected him by telling him part of his family's history.

[TheDarkling]

Yeah exactly thus that can be ruled out as a reason for his dislike of the empire.

[Master of Ossus]

No, when he said that it wasn't that he liked the Empire, he hated it, but there was nothing he could do about it, he had ALREADY lost his family to stormtroopers, had seen the results of their slaughter of the Jawas, AND had been straightened out about part of the story of his father by Obi-Wan. Those are all events that could have rapidly changed one's opinion of the Empire, in fact, Kyle Katarn did so almost immediately for very similar reasons (ref. Rebel Agent, Soldier for the Empire).

[TheDarkling]

First off Kyle Katarn is worth ten Luke Skywalkers and Im offended that you dared compare them.

The Jawa deaths and his families deaths happened after he declared his dislike of the empire.

He was also very interested in the Rebellion when 3PO mentioned it.

[Master of Ossus]

He was interested in the Rebellion because he lives on Tatooine and he hasn't seen or experienced anything like that, before. It would be like a little kid watching his first airplane fly by during WWI and knowing that it was off to fight the Germans.

[TheDarkling]

Concession accepted.

The Germans were viewed as the bad guys thus Luke views the Empire as the bad guys.

[TheDarkling]

OK I admit that was a cheap shot.

[Master of Ossus]

You're right, bad analogy. A better one would have been the interest paid by Soviet citizens to the early Nazi troops who were "liberating" them from Stalin.

[TheDarkling]

Peoples opinion of the empire probably varies dependant upon the person.

Species - Well I dont need to explain this.
Location - The people on the Rim may be happy that the empire has brought some Law, on the other hand hte people in the core may not be happy to have lost their freedom(troops on the street).

We really need to see episode 3 to get more info on his final coup but the fact that the Rebellion was liked in the senate proves that the empire wasnt loved by all.

[Darth Wong]

Actually, Germany also turned into a dictatorship more or less overnight, when Hitler was installed as Fuhrer. Germany also had something of a history of being democratic, and Hitler had to be voted into office before he even thought about seizing control of the entire country.

Not to get off on a tangent, but Germany's dissolution started well before Hitler actually gained all those extra powers. The vote itself was a sham; the opposition was systematically brutalized into submission, and people could not vote against him for fear of their lives. His thugs imposed his will long before his totalitarian power was written into law.

Ultimately, the German people allowed this to happen. They wanted strict totalitarian leadership which would hurt their perceived enemies. They turned a blind eye to the brutality because they figured it was being aimed at others. I've actually spoken to an ex-Nazi youth who said that they basically had carte blanche to do whatever they wanted. He and his buddies grabbed a schoolteacher they didn't like, gang-raped and beat her, and made no attempt to hide themselves because they knew that no one would do anything about it.

That was the sort of environment in which Hitler gained his extra powers, and that's rather unlike the situation with Palpatine.

[Cpt_Frank]

Palp made himself Emperor.
Hitler was made 'Emperor'.[/i]

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

We really need to see episode 3 to get more info on his final coup but the fact that the Rebellion was liked in the senate proves that the empire wasnt loved by all.

More than that, the rebellion was supported by the Senate. Why should it prove that the Empire wasn't loved by all? Do the people love the Senate? Based on eps I and II, I doubt it. If the people love the Senate, Palpatine would never rise to the throne at all.[/quote]