Some simple rules for G2k/Darkstar's board

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Post by Darth Wong »

tjhairball wrote:It takes a lot of work to run a forum, particularly when a large population of invaders from another site consistently refuse to acknowledge forum rules or policies.
Oh really? You think I wouldn't know about that? Are you honestly this fucking stupid?
It also takes 24/7 monitoring to keep an active forum behaving within ordinary constraints of "all audience appropriate" behavior - i.e., no porn, spam, etc, which in turn requires more than one person on staff.
Wow, tell us something we don't know.
Given the behavior of some of this site's members, which would get them deleted and/or banned in a hurry back on my home turf for reasons having nothing to do with "dissent," I think this forum has a solid reason to hang its head in collective shame.
The anal-retentive behaviour of some other webboard on the Internet is totally irrelevant. Their behaviour would not have gotten them banned on this board, and Darkstar himself did far more than that before finally being banned from here, yet he spent the last two years using his banning as proof of my personal moral bankruptcy. The only person who needs to hang his head in shame here is the crowning champion hypocrite of the hour, Darkstar himself. And you, for being an idiot.
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Post by Ghost Rider »

tjhairball wrote:It takes a lot of work to run a forum, particularly when a large population of invaders from another site consistently refuse to acknowledge forum rules or policies.
Right because we've never had invaders, troll, or people creating dissent here.
It also takes 24/7 monitoring to keep an active forum behaving within ordinary constraints of "all audience appropriate" behavior - i.e., no porn, spam, etc, which in turn requires more than one person on staff.
His fault not creating said positions and what did he expect it all to be roses?
Given the behavior of some of this site's members, which would get them deleted and/or banned in a hurry back on my home turf for reasons having nothing to do with "dissent," I think this forum has a solid reason to hang its head in collective shame.
I'd like to hear the reason of banning Shep.

I have no love for the man, but to ban him because of past incident...and that doesn't strike as draconian in the least?

Let alone the other violations.
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Post by Anarchist Bunny »

It's obvious why he made all those stupid rules and the "PG setting", as an out, so that if he closed the board, being decimated in Vs wouldn't be the only plausable reason.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Anarchist Bunny wrote:It's obvious why he made all those stupid rules and the "PG setting", as an out, so that if he closed the board, being decimated in Vs wouldn't be the only plausable reason.
He has always been one for believing he could make up all sorts of rules which he would never accept if someone else was enforcing them upon him. He has simply demonstrated this in spectacular fashion over the past two days.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

tjhairball wrote:It takes a lot of work to run a forum, particularly when a large population of invaders from another site consistently refuse to acknowledge forum rules or policies.
Duh. We've had similar situations, here.
It also takes 24/7 monitoring to keep an active forum behaving within ordinary constraints of "all audience appropriate" behavior - i.e., no porn, spam, etc, which in turn requires more than one person on staff.
Right, which is part of why the administrative policies of DarkStar's forum were flawed from the start.

DarkStar's other main failure was an unwillingness to clearly define what was and was not out of bounds on his forum. For example, I don't think very many people (if any) found jmac's images to be objectionable. I don't think they found the sig pictures people put up to be objectionable. He also failed to define flaming on his board in an appropriate manner.
Given the behavior of some of this site's members, which would get them deleted and/or banned in a hurry back on my home turf
Those standards were obviously not the same ones used here or there. DarkStar only banned one member (for a more-or-less totally irrelevant reason), and he deleted some threads seemingly haphazardly. BTW, THAT's the home turf you keep crowing about? :lol:
for reasons having nothing to do with "dissent," I think this forum has a solid reason to hang its head in collective shame.
Why? We didn't do anything wrong. No one advocated an invasion of the board. We cannot be held collectively responsible for the actions of our members.
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Post by Oddity »

tjhairball wrote:It takes a lot of work to run a forum, particularly when a large population of invaders from another site consistently refuse to acknowledge forum rules or policies.
Where did any of us refuse to follow forum rules or policies? We even adhered to RSA's silly canon policy.
tjhairball wrote:It also takes 24/7 monitoring to keep an active forum behaving within ordinary constraints of "all audience appropriate" behavior - i.e., no porn, spam, etc, which in turn requires more than one person on staff.
Then why didn't he appoint moderators? He don't need to do all of it himself.
tjhairball wrote:Given the behavior of some of this site's members, which would get them deleted and/or banned in a hurry back on my home turf for reasons having nothing to do with "dissent," I think this forum has a solid reason to hang its head in collective shame.
What behavior? And what you think is hardly relevant.
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Post by Montcalm »

Deleted my Rabid Sci-Fi Fan Poll,and it was all in good fun but i guess he has Vulcan blood running in his veine,plus i was poking fun at all major sci-fi franchise from Trek to Wars including my fave B5. :roll:
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Post by tjhairball »

Since so many of you take issue with what I've said, I'll just list my points again and defend them.
tjhairball wrote:It takes a lot of work to run a forum, particularly when a large population of invaders from another site consistently refuse to acknowledge forum rules or policies.
Yes, I assume you should be aware of this.

As a matter of fact, many apparent SD.netters did not follow board policy re: what goes in canon and noncanon.

tjhairball wrote:It also takes 24/7 monitoring to keep an active forum behaving within ordinary constraints of "all audience appropriate" behavior - i.e., no porn, spam, etc, which in turn requires more than one person on staff.
Also something I assume at least some of you should be aware of. I agree Darkstar made a mistake in not distributing responsibility fast enough to deal with the amount of site traffic that did occur.
tjhairball wrote:Given the behavior of some of this site's members, which would get them deleted and/or banned in a hurry back on my home turf for reasons having nothing to do with "dissent," I think this forum has a solid reason to hang its head in collective shame.
NationStates is hardly "anal retentive." However, we don't put up with crap over there. Persistently ignoring board policy will get you banned or deleted - and yes, I'm proud of my home turf. It's a lot busier than here, and in my humble opinion, more smoothly run. Imagine running a board that usually has over a hundred thousand registered users and goes through - every few months - a number of posts equal to this forum's entire posting history.

I regularly saw apparent SD.net posters flaming (in violation of stated board policy) as well as the frequent violations of the board canon policy (if you disagreed, there was a place to debate why, which few SD.net posters used, and a place to engage in debate using sources not considered "canon" by the site policy) and, of course, the now infamous "inappropriate posts." I also saw folks advocating invading and trashing his board in here, so there's no need to deny it. Wong posting "Rules for posting in Darkstar's board" up in here hardly gives me the impression that those in authority on these boards have been anything but encouraging with respect to a hostile invasion.

Is it the case here, that one may persist in violating board policy without consequences? I have trouble believing this.
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Post by Ghost Rider »

Glad to see somone use blanket examples as proof to one's accusations.
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Post by Oddity »

tjhairball wrote:Since so many of you take issue with what I've said, I'll just list my points again and defend them.
tjhairball wrote:It takes a lot of work to run a forum, particularly when a large population of invaders from another site consistently refuse to acknowledge forum rules or policies.
Yes, I assume you should be aware of this.

As a matter of fact, many apparent SD.netters did not follow board policy re: what goes in canon and noncanon.
Could you perhaps provide a link?
tjhairball wrote:(Snip!)
tjhairball wrote:
tjhairball wrote:Given the behavior of some of this site's members, which would get them deleted and/or banned in a hurry back on my home turf for reasons having nothing to do with "dissent," I think this forum has a solid reason to hang its head in collective shame.
(Snip!)

I regularly saw apparent SD.net posters flaming (in violation of stated board policy)
RSA never properly defined 'faming', so you can accuse virtualy anyone you want of that.
tjhairball wrote:as well as the frequent violations of the board canon policy (if you disagreed, there was a place to debate why, which few SD.net posters used, and a place to engage in debate using sources not considered "canon" by the site policy)
Again, can you provide a link to prove this?
tjhairball wrote:and, of course, the now infamous "inappropriate posts." I also saw folks advocating invading and trashing his board in here, so there's no need to deny it.
Please point out where any of us advocated invading the board, especialy since we have a no-invasions policy!
tjhairball wrote:Wong posting "Rules for posting in Darkstar's board" up in here hardly gives me the impression that those in authority on these boards have been anything but encouraging with respect to a hostile invasion.
A lie:
Darth Wong wrote:Note that this is not a formal "call for invasion". This is a list of rules which people should try to keep in mind if they do go over there.
tjhairball wrote:(Snip!)
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Post by Darth Wong »

tjhairball wrote:As a matter of fact, many apparent SD.netters did not follow board policy re: what goes in canon and noncanon.
RSA decided that he would nullify debate on his biggest points of vulnerability by simply declaring them to be "board policy". After the shit he pulled here, this was hypocrisy of the highest order, and we called him on it. Boo hoo.
Also something I assume at least some of you should be aware of. I agree Darkstar made a mistake in not distributing responsibility fast enough to deal with the amount of site traffic that did occur.
Missing the point again, I see. The problem was not traffic; the problem was the fact that he wanted a discord-free discussion of a subject which invariably produces discord: something he of all people would know all too well.
NationStates is hardly "anal retentive." However, we don't put up with crap over there. Persistently ignoring board policy will get you banned or deleted - and yes, I'm proud of my home turf. It's a lot busier than here, and in my humble opinion, more smoothly run. Imagine running a board that usually has over a hundred thousand registered users and goes through - every few months - a number of posts equal to this forum's entire posting history.
Wow, so a high posting volume proves that NationStates is not anal-retentive? :roll: There are plenty of huge boards on the Internet; their size does not vindicate their policies.
I regularly saw apparent SD.net posters flaming (in violation of stated board policy) as well as the frequent violations of the board canon policy (if you disagreed, there was a place to debate why, which few SD.net posters used, and a place to engage in debate using sources not considered "canon" by the site policy) and, of course, the now infamous "inappropriate posts."
Rules set by someone who made no effort to observe such decorum when he himself posted elsewhere on the Internet. Excuse me while I get a tissue for him to cry in.
I also saw folks advocating invading and trashing his board in here, so there's no need to deny it.
If we had really gone in there en masse with the sole intent of trolling, you would know it. Almost all of the posts we made were on-topic; we just treated him the way he treated us.
Wong posting "Rules for posting in Darkstar's board" up in here hardly gives me the impression that those in authority on these boards have been anything but encouraging with respect to a hostile invasion.
I condoned people from here going there, but did not call for it. That is not a "hostile invasion"; if we had decided to initiate a hostile invasion (of the sort that we have suffered on numerous occasions), it would have been pretty damned obvious.
Is it the case here, that one may persist in violating board policy without consequences? I have trouble believing this.
Board policy here is not anal-retentive, and most importantly, I do not hypocritically run around on the Internet breaking all manner of rules which I expect people to follow on my own board.

PS. If you prefer anal-retentive moderating policies, you are free to get the fuck out and take your whiny holier-than-thou bullshit with you. So far you have provided not a single example of genuine misdeeds, and have contented yourself with wide-cast generalizations and sanctimonious declarations of moral outrage because we treated Darkstar the same way he treats others and laughed when he demonstrated his hypocrisy by treating it as a crime. Excuse us while we don't give a shit.
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Post by tjhairball »

I was about to provide a whole list of topics in which canon policy violations (within the section for "Versus," where the canon policy is applied) and flaming were applied, but I accidentally closed the window. You'll have to put up with the short version:

From what I'm currently seeing in the forum, explicitly obvious and intentional* policy violation occurred in the following threads:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/board/viewtopic.php?t=45
http://www.st-v-sw.net/board/viewtopic.php?t=59
http://www.st-v-sw.net/board/viewtopic.php?t=19
http://www.st-v-sw.net/board/viewtopic.php?t=21
http://www.st-v-sw.net/board/viewtopic.php?t=18
http://www.st-v-sw.net/board/viewtopic.php?t=11

Six threads out of twenty is a reasonable chunk, particularly considering the non-serious or little-replied-to nature of most threads not on the above list. This also discounts any threads that Darkstar may have already thrown out of the section due to not conforming to board policy.

*Intention, ignorance, and idiocy are all possible explanations, to be honest.
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Post by Darth Wong »

tjhairball wrote:I was about to provide a whole list of topics in which canon policy violations (within the section for "Versus," where the canon policy is applied) and flaming were applied,
Of course we broke his rule on canon, fucktard! That was rule #1 in this thread! How does this change the fact that his rules were designed to shield his "vs" arguments from criticism on one of their most fundamental weaknesses?

Find me one other board on the Internet outside of religious sites which declares that you cannot hold a certain opinion for the purpose of discussion as a matter of board policy. And explain why you think we should be ashamed of treating Darkstar the way he treats others.
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Post by SirNitram »

tjhairball wrote:I was about to provide a whole list of topics in which canon policy violations (within the section for "Versus," where the canon policy is applied) and flaming were applied, but I accidentally closed the window. You'll have to put up with the short version:
Convenience abounds when Darkstar's sycopants are abroad. So, your only real substantiated complaints is that people dared to challenge his abuse of the phrases 'Canon policy' for his own ends. And what is his reply that you are defending?

He threw a tantrum and took his toys away.

Boo-Fucking-Hoo. He's a hypocrit and a liar.
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Post by tjhairball »

Darth Wong wrote:RSA decided that he would nullify debate on his biggest points of vulnerability by simply declaring them to be "board policy". After the shit he pulled here, this was hypocrisy of the highest order, and we called him on it. Boo hoo.
As a matter of fact, there was an entire section open for you to argue about that in detail. You should be aware, you posted there.

Missing the point again, I see. The problem was not traffic; the problem was the fact that he wanted a discord-free discussion of a subject which invariably produces discord: something he of all people would know all too well.
Actually, dealing with several points at once. I firmly believe a civil discussion of any matter so trivial as this one is quite possible.
Wow, so a high posting volume proves that NationStates is not anal-retentive? :roll: There are plenty of huge boards on the Internet; their size does not vindicate their policies.
Again, I'm addressing several points here. NationStates.net is host to what may well be the widest political diversity of any website on Earth. I could be wrong, but we probably come close. I recommend familiarizing yourself with our policies before talking about them.
Rules set by someone who made no effort to observe such decorum when he himself posted elsewhere on the Internet. Excuse me while I get a tissue for him to cry in.
Here, let me pass you one of mine.
If we had really gone in there en masse with the sole intent of trolling, you would know it. Almost all of the posts we made were on-topic; we just treated him the way he treated us.
I have no way of knowing what posters were and were not SD.netters with certainty, with a few exceptions, but a great deal of off topic posting occurred. "US Marines Vs. Redshirts" ? Two topics? Please. B5 comparisons? And anal sex has what to do with SW vs ST?
I condoned people from here going there, but did not call for it. That is not a "hostile invasion"; if we had decided to initiate a hostile invasion (of the sort that we have suffered on numerous occasions), it would have been pretty damned obvious.
It looked pretty obviously hostile to me, and it also looked (fairly obviously) like an invasion. Ergo, hostile invasion. I'm also aware of how much impact a site admin condoning but not explicitly calling for something can have on eager forum members.
Board policy here is not anal-retentive, and most importantly, I do not hypocritically run around on the Internet breaking all manner of rules which I expect people to follow on my own board.
I assume you're sniping at Darkstar here rather than really talking about the issue at hand. Perhaps I should start making redundant topics, but that would be silly of me. I don't really have anything I need to say here.
PS. If you prefer anal-retentive moderating policies, you are free to get the fuck out and take your whiny holier-than-thou bullshit with you. So far you have provided not a single example of genuine misdeeds, and have contented yourself with wide-cast generalizations and sanctimonious declarations of moral outrage because we treated Darkstar the same way he treats others and laughed when he demonstrated his hypocrisy by treating it as a crime. Excuse us while we don't give a shit.
I have currently given examples. There are, incidentally, a surprising amount more I could run through, considering how few posts the board had when it was locked. You are free, of course, to ban me from this site if you like, for the crime of being holier than thou. However, please do not sacrifice goats to me, however holy you may consider me. I don't approve of animal sacrifice, thank you very much.
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Post by Soontir C'boath »

It looked pretty obviously hostile to me, and it also looked (fairly obviously) like an invasion. Ergo, hostile invasion. I'm also aware of how much impact a site admin condoning but not explicitly calling for something can have on eager forum members.
Yes, because I didn't come out of my own freewill with curiousity but charging forth with sharp bayonets ready to slit your throats. :roll:
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Post by aerius »

tjhairball wrote:It looked pretty obviously hostile to me, and it also looked (fairly obviously) like an invasion. Ergo, hostile invasion. I'm also aware of how much impact a site admin condoning but not explicitly calling for something can have on eager forum members.
It was a friendly visit complete with a hippy sit-in where we gathered 'round and sang Kumbaya, hardly hostile at all. If it was hostile his board would've been buried with hardcore anal sex porn within 20 minutes and there would be a hell of a lot more cussing and insulting going on.
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Post by tjhairball »

Darth Wong wrote: Of course we broke his rule on canon, fucktard! That was rule #1 in this thread! How does this change the fact that his rules were designed to shield his "vs" arguments from criticism on one of their most fundamental weaknesses?

Find me one other board on the Internet outside of religious sites which declares that you cannot hold a certain opinion for the purpose of discussion as a matter of board policy. And explain why you think we should be ashamed of treating Darkstar the way he treats others.
I have not seen Darkstar take a forum engaged in largely civil discussion and turn it into a flaming mass of people who could be readily described as plugging their fingers in their ears and shouting at each other. I must admit being "new to the scene," but I have my strong doubts about anyone engaging in immature, rude, or stupid behavior and justifying it by saying "HE DID IT FIRST!"

Actually, the specific policy didn't ask for an opinion; it asked for debate to be limited to a specific set of sources for citation for a single forum section. Alternative venues for less limited debate and debate on what sources should be used for citation purposes were also provided.

Curiously enough, now I feel I should point out other violations of other board policies. Darkstar clearly stated flaming was against board policy, and discussion was to be civil.

Yet we hear such phrases as "festering bowl of dog shit" applied to people. Incivility and flames readily present. The canon policy was not the only policy violated when the SD.net populace began showing up in large numbers. Not by all SD.netters, but mostly by such.
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Post by Darth Wong »

The Darkstar Hall of Hypocrisy

From his website, his accusations against me:
Those he does not like get posts edited and their personal information altered, and threads which refer to anything contrary to his views get closed, after he says something about not having time to update the site.
Never mind the fact that I actually allowed him to post more than seven hundred times despite these bullshit claims, Darkstar threads were generally allowed to balloon to hundreds of posts, and his refusal to accept our interpretation of canon while debating on our board was never considered a rules violation.

So what does he do when he creates his own board? He creates a board policy saying that anyone who refers to any canon policy contrary to his own is in violation of board policy, he closes threads which violate said "policy", and says something about not having enough time to deal with this. If you can't see the hypocrisy in this, you're either blind, stupid, or too busy sucking RSA's cock to notice.
Last edited by Darth Wong on 2004-06-26 10:22pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Darth Wong »

tjhairball wrote:I have not seen Darkstar take a forum engaged in largely civil discussion and turn it into a flaming mass of people who could be readily described as plugging their fingers in their ears and shouting at each other. I must admit being "new to the scene," but I have my strong doubts about anyone engaging in immature, rude, or stupid behavior and justifying it by saying "HE DID IT FIRST!"
How is it "immature, rude, or stupid" to ignore a board policy which defines a particular opinion as a violation of board rules? Your entire argument seems to be "he made rules, and it doesn't matter how unreasonable they were or how inconsistent they were with his own behaviour when he was here; you were morally deficient for not obeying them".
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tjhairball
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Post by tjhairball »

Darth Wong wrote:If you can't see the hypocrisy in this, you're either blind, stupid, or too busy sucking RSA's cock to notice.
Ow! My EYES! :shock:

Frankly, there is another interpretation readily apparent from your telling of the tale:

Darkstar feels very strongly about what is canon. After banging his head against a wall of people who don't even agree on the same canon policy as he does - which would seem essential to a well ordered debate - he decides to start a board where people can debate based on what is, as far as he is concerned, the real canon, without dealing with the constant interjections of examples from the Starfleet Academy series, the Star Wars Christmas Special, E2ICS, almost all the novels, etc. Does this sound hypocritical to you? We can simply call it serving a niche that your boards do not - "strictly canon discussion" based on Darkstar's standards.

Is it hypocritical of you to deny Darkstar forcing his ideal of canon on your boards, then attempt to force your ideas of canon down his throat on his?

If you both are hypocritical, why does this make either of you any better than the other?
tjhairball
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Post by tjhairball »

Darth Wong wrote:How is it "immature, rude, or stupid" to ignore a board policy which defines a particular opinion as a violation of board rules? Your entire argument seems to be "he made rules, and it doesn't matter how unreasonable they were or how inconsistent they were with his own behaviour when he was here; you were morally deficient for not obeying them".
Please actually read my post. If you still believe this is what I have said, you and I have communications issues between the two of us.
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Post by Ghost Rider »

tjhairball wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:If you can't see the hypocrisy in this, you're either blind, stupid, or too busy sucking RSA's cock to notice.
Ow! My EYES! :shock:

Frankly, there is another interpretation readily apparent from your telling of the tale:

Darkstar feels very strongly about what is canon. After banging his head against a wall of people who don't even agree on the same canon policy as he does - which would seem essential to a well ordered debate - he decides to start a board where people can debate based on what is, as far as he is concerned, the real canon, without dealing with the constant interjections of examples from the Starfleet Academy series, the Star Wars Christmas Special, E2ICS, almost all the novels, etc. Does this sound hypocritical to you? We can simply call it serving a niche that your boards do not - "strictly canon discussion" based on Darkstar's standards.

Is it hypocritical of you to deny Darkstar forcing his ideal of canon on your boards, then attempt to force your ideas of canon down his throat on his?

If you both are hypocritical, why does this make either of you any better than the other?
Let's see...one board follows canon as dictated by the two companies that can dictate canon.

Another board makes his own canon as he sees fit because he disagrees with the companies that can dictate canon.

So who's being illogical here.
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Post by Darth Wong »

tjhairball wrote:Frankly, there is another interpretation readily apparent from your telling of the tale:

Darkstar feels very strongly about what is canon. After banging his head against a wall of people who don't even agree on the same canon policy as he does - which would seem essential to a well ordered debate - he decides to start a board where people can debate based on what is, as far as he is concerned, the real canon, without dealing with the constant interjections of examples from the Starfleet Academy series, the Star Wars Christmas Special, E2ICS, almost all the novels, etc. Does this sound hypocritical to you?
So he goes to someone else's board and says "fuck your canon policy, I'm going to use my own." And when he makes his own board, he says "it's only reasonable to force visitors to my board to observe my canon policy". YOU ARE HONESTLY TOO FUCKING STUPID TO SEE THE HYPOCRISY HERE?
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
tjhairball
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Post by tjhairball »

Ghost Rider wrote:Let's see...one board follows canon as dictated by the two companies that can dictate canon.
Another board makes his own canon as he sees fit because he disagrees with the companies that can dictate canon.
So who's being illogical here.
Both sites bring up some of the very valid reasons for disputes in what is and is not canon, both claim to settle on canon policies that are correct beyond any and all doubt. Darkstar lays claim that his canon policy is consistent with Lucas/Paramount policy, Wong says that isn't the case. Logic dictates the best route of any analyst is to prepare for both cases and have arguments that work in both paradigms.
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