Canon Database goes over 1000 entries!

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-10-11 04:22pm

Great! Good job, Mike! Your canon database is getting quite extensive. Keep up the good work!

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-10-11 05:46pm

Mike, remember when Lord Edam and Elim decided to write a rebuttal Canon Database to yours?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-11 09:48pm

Lord Poe wrote:Mike, remember when Lord Edam and Elim decided to write a rebuttal Canon Database to yours?

I only remember fragments of it, but I recall that most of their rebuttals were "laugh out loud" stupid.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-10-11 09:49pm

I also remember how it was confidential and only available to a few people...

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2004-10-12 12:24am

Yet again, we are reminded that Starfleet sits atop the hierarchy of all Federation society. Universities are obviously segregated into Starfleet and "non-Starfleet", and the best a Starfleet university can do is reach the top of a lower class.

Shouldn't that underlined part be "non-starfleet"?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-12 12:26am

Darth Servo wrote:
Yet again, we are reminded that Starfleet sits atop the hierarchy of all Federation society. Universities are obviously segregated into Starfleet and "non-Starfleet", and the best a Starfleet university can do is reach the top of a lower class.
Shouldn't that underlined part be "non-starfleet"?

Oops! Brain-fart. Thanks for the alert.

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2004-10-12 12:33am

The canon database is what first brought me to this site. A friend was sending me quotes over ICQ, and finally I asked him where he was getting them, so he sent me the link.

From there to the main page, which appealed to the Imperial loyalist in me... (I treasure the day when the treacherous admiral in Tie Fighter called me 'the Emperor's stool pigeon') and from there to these forums.

I still browse over the old material occasionally after I've gone through my usual list of bookmarks for the evening. It's still just as informative and funny now as it was the first time.

Thank you, Mr. Wong.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-12 01:15am

I would like to know, if by 'canon' you mean only ST scripts, Mosaic and that other one, and SW novelisations? Is any EU analysis available for submission?

Winston Blake · Post by **Winston Blake** » 2004-10-12 02:22am

Under the DS9 link:

Communications: Subspace "anti-lepton interference" can be used to jam Starfleet long-range subspace communications.
Leptons are a theoretical type of fundamental particle which only weakly interacts with other particles. Neutrinos are an example of a lepton, so anti-neutrino radiation would be an example of "anti-lepton interference".
This implies (interestingly enough) that Starfleet subspace communications technology is based on the transmission of leptons (probably neutrinos, since they're the only leptons which are routinely mentioned on the show) through subspace, and that leptons in subspace are more likely to interact with each other than leptons in realspace.

I hope i'm not being a patronizing little git, but I'm pretty sure that leptons aren't 'theoretical' since electrons are a type of lepton. AFAIK the leptons are the: electron, muon, tauon, electron neutrino, muon neutrino, tauon neutrino and all their antiparticles.

Neutrinos do 'only weakly interact' though (both in the sense of not interacting much and interacting only via the weak force), but charged leptons like electrons obviously don't fit either sense.

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned earlier. Maybe i'm going to get barbecued alive...

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-10-12 01:42pm

Master of Ossus wrote:Mike, you mention in your database this:

How can they have hull breaches if the shields are still at 57%? I know there's a history of ships taking damage before the shields collapse, but an outright hull breach is rather serious damage: more than we usually expect for this sort of thing.
Alyeska and I began forming a theory about this after our idle speculation discovered several instances of a ship suffering systems damage before the shields were knocked out, or even severely weakened. We suggested that ST shields operate in such a way that they can only redirect a certain amount of energy at a given time, and that the rest of it "bleeds through."

I would suggest that the ship's shield rating (ie. "Down to seventy-three percent!") is a measure of how well the shields are doing relative to their maximum effectiveness, and that repeatedly suffering hits drops the effectiveness of shielding.

It's not much of a theory, but having the ship damaged before the shields are remotely drained is by no means an isolated incident. It's happened in several episodes, as well.

Hmm, sort of like the common game mechanic that shields (in general sci fi) just "reduce damage" they don't actually stop it completely (except very very weak stuff)?

Might another possibility (not saying you're wrong) be that of the old "physical object holding up the shield" thing... you know, the armor on the outside is virtually unscathed but the thing inside takes the kinetic energy and getse hurt?

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2004-10-12 11:43pm

I like to think of Federation shields as a field of funky partices which are responsible for blocking incoming energy and matter. High-energy hits would scatter the shield material, possibly weakening in. As the shield takes more hits it is literally blasted away, and obviously looses its ability to screen the ship from incoming weapons fire.
I've yet to explain why frequencies would matter, but all in all I think it serves as an applicable analogy if nothing else.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-10-12 11:56pm

Kurgan wrote:Might another possibility (not saying you're wrong) be that of the old "physical object holding up the shield" thing... you know, the armor on the outside is virtually unscathed but the thing inside takes the kinetic energy and getse hurt?

I originally thought of that, but as Aly pointed out, hull breaches on multiple levels don't seem to be consistent with this model. There would be serious damage to the shield system before the hull failed, presumably.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-10-13 02:33pm

Something else to point out. Hull damage typicaly appears in incidents where hull hugging shields are being used. When spherical or rounded shape shields are used ship damage appears to be much lighter, if any at all.

So why use hull hugging shields at all? Its all mathmatetics really. Hull hugging shields take up less surface area and can provide greater endurance. So while your ship might take some damage while you have shields up, your still going to get overall better protection. Spherical shields provide better absolute protection, but in heavy combat they will be drained quickly.

Something else to consider. Starfleet appeared to use spherical shields through much of TNG and even shortly before the Dominion war broke out (reference Enterprise-E against the Borg). However durring the Dominion war hull hugging shields were the only shields being used. Even in Insurrection the Enterprise was using hull hugging shields rather then spherical ones.

In peace time when you want to protect your ships from damage and when heavy confrontations are not expected, spherical shields would be most logical. However in war time when keeping the ship alive as long as possible is more important, hull hugging shields would be more logical.

Just something to consider.

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2004-10-13 09:23pm

In the Canon database there is mention of "Gold" still being thought of as a valuable commodity, used as payment...refuting the "Replicators can make anything" belief.

Couldn't "Gold" just be short for "gold press latinum"?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-10-13 09:26pm

Enola Straight wrote:In the Canon database there is mention of "Gold" still being thought of as a valuable commodity, used as payment...refuting the "Replicators can make anything" belief.

Couldn't "Gold" just be short for "gold press latinum"?

Possibly, but usually they use the term "latinum" for that.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2004-10-14 12:37am

Alyeska wrote:Something else to point out. Hull damage typicaly appears in incidents where hull hugging shields are being used. When spherical or rounded shape shields are used ship damage appears to be much lighter, if any at all.

Good observation. Perhaps the most extensive bleedthrough we've seen occured in Trek VI, and the E-A's shields were definitely hull-huggers. (Interestingly enough, to further the point you made at the end of your post, Starfleet leaned more toward "militarized" circa TUC.)

So why use hull hugging shields at all? Its all mathmatetics really. Hull hugging shields take up less surface area and can provide greater endurance. So while your ship might take some damage while you have shields up, your still going to get overall better protection. Spherical shields provide better absolute protection, but in heavy combat they will be drained quickly.

I agree though I must add this sounds a bit off.

I don't mean what you've stated seems messed up; rather, that hull-huggers suffer more damage yet provide greater endurance is different from what I'd expect. If anything, with a bubble shield's vastly greater surface area, I'd look for a loss in stamina under fire and poorer protection against high-intensity energies.

Might the bubbles' superior momentary protection have something to do with the "stand-off"? For example, we might neatly assume a directed photorp yielding 10 kT pours its energy into ~4.2 m^2 shield area. Let's also assume that shield can dissipate 5 TJ per square meter; beyond that threshold, energy starts to get through.

So, we've got 5 kilotons that slips past the shield--a bubble shield that extends some 100 meters from the hull. In spite of the fact that the shield was quickly worn down, at the distance the torpedo was detonated, the hull must cope with "only" 167 MJ/m^2. Not cozy, but could be worse.

Contrast this to the same weapon hitting a more powerful hull-hugging shield w/ a 10m stand-off. The torpedo hits the same area, only this time the shields can dissipate 9 TJ/m^2, stopping all but ~1 kT.

However, since the hull-hugger is so close to the ship, the energy intensity on the hull rises to 3,300 MJ/m^2--almost twenty times the previous number.

(All of those numbers are purely for illustrative purposes and the concepts are a bit too "neat," but I see what you mean. Even my bad math bears it out

.)

*snip*
In peace time when you want to protect your ships from damage and when heavy confrontations are not expected, spherical shields would be most logical. However in war time when keeping the ship alive as long as possible is more important, hull hugging shields would be more logical.

Just something to consider.

Damn good thoughts.

Permit me to play devil's advocate for a moment. IIRC, the Klingons used hull-huggers in TOS/films, bubbles in TNG/"Generations," then went back to hull-huggers during DS9.

Okay: if bubble shields are a peacetime measure or are something used when you don't expect your ship will be in an extended fight, why would the Duras and Gowron loyalists not switch to hull-huggers during their civil war? They had the technology; we saw them using it as early as a hundred years earlier.

For that matter, martial as the Klingons are, why would they make any such change? Might "absolute shield protection" be better suited toward tactics of which we know the Klingons are fond? Might it favor certain types of ships over others?

I actually agree with you on this and understand the Klingon thing's changing the subject a bit. Still, I don't really know how to answer that question so I thought I'd ask

Jon · Post by **Jon** » 2004-10-14 06:55am

Enola Straight wrote:In the Canon database there is mention of "Gold" still being thought of as a valuable commodity, used as payment...refuting the "Replicators can make anything" belief.

Couldn't "Gold" just be short for "gold press latinum"?

Very likely, I would agree. There are many ways to 'refer' to precious materials now, no reason why 'Gold Pressed Latinum' wouldn't be contracted to 'Gold' if it was obvious to everyone that gold was worthless anyway, so they can only be referring to latinum when using it to describe value.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-14 12:35pm

Jon wrote:
Enola Straight wrote:In the Canon database there is mention of "Gold" still being thought of as a valuable commodity, used as payment...refuting the "Replicators can make anything" belief.

Couldn't "Gold" just be short for "gold press latinum"?
Very likely, I would agree. There are many ways to 'refer' to precious materials now, no reason why 'Gold Pressed Latinum' wouldn't be contracted to 'Gold' if it was obvious to everyone that gold was worthless anyway, so they can only be referring to latinum when using it to describe value.

Except for the small detail that they always contract it to "latinum", which is presumably much MORE valuable per unit mass than gold. This doesn't mean gold is actually worthless.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-10-14 01:02pm

Here is the reason why hull hugging shields allow more bleed through damage while spherical don't. When you strike hull hugging shields the bleed through imediately strikes one point of the hull causing damage. With spherical shields the energy hits, gets disrupted and over a distance of maybe 100 meters or more is dispersed doing less concentrated damage.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-10-14 01:04pm

Just something to think about. Just because they can replicate it doesn't mean its not valuable. Presumably replicators take up considerable energy and become valuable in being able to produce finished products easily. Just because they might be able to replicate gold doesn't mean its cost worthy to do that.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2004-10-14 02:01pm

Alyeska wrote:Just something to think about. Just because they can replicate it doesn't mean its not valuable. Presumably replicators take up considerable energy and become valuable in being able to produce finished products easily. Just because they might be able to replicate gold doesn't mean its cost worthy to do that.

I think I've asked this before... Are replicators cabable of elemental transmutation?

If they are not, gold would still be valuable because in order to replicate items made of gold you would need gold to use as a raw material. If they are, replicating a gold bar shouldn't take anymore energy then replicating anything with equal mass (unless there is some bizarre reason why replicating gold is vastly less efficient then replicating lead for example).

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-10-14 02:08pm

Sir Sirius wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Just something to think about. Just because they can replicate it doesn't mean its not valuable. Presumably replicators take up considerable energy and become valuable in being able to produce finished products easily. Just because they might be able to replicate gold doesn't mean its cost worthy to do that.
I think I've asked this before... Are replicators cabable of elemental transmutation?

If they are not, gold would still be valuable because in order to replicate items made of gold you would need gold to use as a raw material. If they are, replicating a gold bar shouldn't take anymore energy then replicating anything with equal mass (unless there is some bizarre reason why replicating gold is vastly less efficient then replicating lead for example).

it might be a possibility, but afaik replicators work by rearranging the molecular patterns of pre-existing matter. so they take raw materials and rearrange it to something that's pleasing. Given gold is a relatively simple element, it's likely something that can be created without too much difficulty by playing about with the electron/positron/neutron arrangement in materials that have a similar density.

in other cases, stuff like diamonds can be made from coal dust by rearranging the molecules, etc. my guess is that some stuff like gold pressed latinum is valuable because it has elements or aspects to it that simply cannot be synthesized in that type of a fashion. or if they are synthesized is 'imperfect' somehow.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-10-14 02:16pm

Darth_Zod wrote: it might be a possibility, but afaik replicators work by rearranging the molecular patterns of pre-existing matter. so they take raw materials and rearrange it to something that's pleasing. Given gold is a relatively simple element, it's likely something that can be created without too much difficulty by playing about with the electron/positron/neutron arrangement in materials that have a similar density.

Minor nitpik you mean Proton not positron.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-10-14 02:30pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote: it might be a possibility, but afaik replicators work by rearranging the molecular patterns of pre-existing matter. so they take raw materials and rearrange it to something that's pleasing. Given gold is a relatively simple element, it's likely something that can be created without too much difficulty by playing about with the electron/positron/neutron arrangement in materials that have a similar density.
Minor nitpik you mean Proton not positron.

whoops. yes, that's it. my bad.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-10-14 04:24pm

Sir Sirius wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Just something to think about. Just because they can replicate it doesn't mean its not valuable. Presumably replicators take up considerable energy and become valuable in being able to produce finished products easily. Just because they might be able to replicate gold doesn't mean its cost worthy to do that.
I think I've asked this before... Are replicators cabable of elemental transmutation?

If they are not, gold would still be valuable because in order to replicate items made of gold you would need gold to use as a raw material. If they are, replicating a gold bar shouldn't take anymore energy then replicating anything with equal mass (unless there is some bizarre reason why replicating gold is vastly less efficient then replicating lead for example).

I've seen two lines of thought on replicators. One, they manage to take energy and a convert anything into anything else. Usualy it has to do with taking waste (biological waste) and reconverting it into usable food. The other is the replicator has a source of raw material it uses (a slurry of sorts) to convert into anything needed for replication. There appears to be an element of elemental transmutation.