Something I've noticed in my SW vs ST debates

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-11-14 04:30pm

The Imperiall remnant has so much internal fighting that the warlords have no time to think of building something like a DS. Eclipse SSDs (2 not 1), the Galaxy Gun and the World Devastators were build by forces loyal to the reborn Emperor.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-11-14 08:14pm

Kruk wrote:Some calcs are kt in range, some Tt.

This is exactly the problem with dumbshit Trekkies; they assume that if a "calc" has been successfully done, its premises must be valid, it can be analyzed in isolation, and there is no need for a consistent theory.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-11-14 08:34pm

Don't forget Centerpoint if one-off technologies are allowable, moving planets and supernovas, along with ftl death beams of fleet destroying doom.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2004-11-14 09:52pm

Weren't the Eclipses basically a DS-style superlaser shoehorned into a really big Star Destroyer? (I haven't read the comic books with them, so excuse me if I'm wrong

).

And with two Eclipses, that would create six superlasers built: the DS prototype, Deathstar 1, Deathstar 2, Darksaber, and the Eclipses. And Darksaber was built by what essentially amounts to the Galactic Mafia.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-11-14 10:19pm

The Dark wrote:Weren't the Eclipses basically a DS-style superlaser shoehorned into a really big Star Destroyer? (I haven't read the comic books with them, so excuse me if I'm wrong ).

And with two Eclipses, that would create six superlasers built: the DS prototype, Deathstar 1, Deathstar 2, Darksaber, and the Eclipses. And Darksaber was built by what essentially amounts to the Galactic Mafia.

You've forgotten a few.

The Tarkin, a stripped-down Death Star which was mostly just the cannon.

The four Sovereign-class Star Destroyers, the Eclipse's baby brother/escorts.

The Errant Venture apparently also mounts one. And these are just the confirmed, spelt out, said-it's-a-Superlaser ones.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-11-14 10:25pm

Pulsar Station didn't exist, but the NR took the possibility of its being built seriously, which means podunk Imp warlords had the potential capability

On a similar note, Starlancer didn't exit, but the YV were dumb enough to believe it could be built out of the resources at beseiged Borleias.

So not only are they easily built, they are easy enough to build that they are a credible intelligence ruse, in situations where the group suspected of building them would have minimal resources..

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-11-14 11:01pm

SirNitram wrote:
The Dark wrote:Weren't the Eclipses basically a DS-style superlaser shoehorned into a really big Star Destroyer? (I haven't read the comic books with them, so excuse me if I'm wrong ).

And with two Eclipses, that would create six superlasers built: the DS prototype, Deathstar 1, Deathstar 2, Darksaber, and the Eclipses. And Darksaber was built by what essentially amounts to the Galactic Mafia.
You've forgotten a few.

The Tarkin, a stripped-down Death Star which was mostly just the cannon.

The four Sovereign-class Star Destroyers, the Eclipse's baby brother/escorts.

The Errant Venture apparently also mounts one. And these are just the confirmed, spelt out, said-it's-a-Superlaser ones.

Errant Venture? Superlaser? You've gotta be kidding. How can a retired old pirate who couldn't even afford to paint his ship red afford a SUPERLASER?

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2004-11-14 11:35pm

Just a hologram nitpic:

Recreational holoemitters in SW are said to be visually almost real, evenly matching ST holograms in so far as that goes.

But SW holoemitters do not/cannot create a physical hologram. ST can, and in so far as that goes ST has superior hologram technology.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2004-11-14 11:38pm

SirNitram wrote:
The Dark wrote:Weren't the Eclipses basically a DS-style superlaser shoehorned into a really big Star Destroyer? (I haven't read the comic books with them, so excuse me if I'm wrong ).

And with two Eclipses, that would create six superlasers built: the DS prototype, Deathstar 1, Deathstar 2, Darksaber, and the Eclipses. And Darksaber was built by what essentially amounts to the Galactic Mafia.
You've forgotten a few.

The Tarkin, a stripped-down Death Star which was mostly just the cannon.

The four Sovereign-class Star Destroyers, the Eclipse's baby brother/escorts.

The Errant Venture apparently also mounts one. And these are just the confirmed, spelt out, said-it's-a-Superlaser ones.

Forgot about the Sovereigns, never heard of the Tarkin, and I assume the EV got its one sometime during the NJO, which I stopped reading when I realized how low quality the writing was

. OK, so we're up to an even dozen superlasers in about 20 years (rough estimate, I'm sure somebody knows a more precise amount of time). Not too shabby, especially considering these were under civil war conditions.

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » 2004-11-14 11:54pm

The Silence and I wrote:But SW holoemitters do not/cannot create a physical hologram. ST can, and in so far as that goes ST has superior hologram technology.

That can be easily mimied with aplication of force-field tech.

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » 2004-11-14 11:55pm

StormtrooperOfDeath wrote:
The Silence and I wrote:But SW holoemitters do not/cannot create a physical hologram. ST can, and in so far as that goes ST has superior hologram technology.
That can be easily mimied with aplication of force-field tech.

Edit: mimiced

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2004-11-15 12:12am

StormtrooperOfDeath wrote:
StormtrooperOfDeath wrote:
The Silence and I wrote:But SW holoemitters do not/cannot create a physical hologram. ST can, and in so far as that goes ST has superior hologram technology.
That can be easily mimied with aplication of force-field tech.
Edit: mimiced

And there is a good reason why they might not impliment force-fields (which, as we do know, can be manipulated to form many different conforming shapes), namely, because of the potential dangers to the children who would be in contact with this technology.

As for super-technology that has later been replicated, I seem to recall quite vividly that "Quantum Crystaline" armour technology (which made the Suncrusher virtually indestructable) was being used to help rebuild the Cathedral of Winds (it was in one of the NJO books).

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-11-15 12:34am

Praxis wrote:Errant Venture? Superlaser? You've gotta be kidding. How can a retired old pirate who couldn't even afford to paint his ship red afford a SUPERLASER?

New Jedi Order.

Ignore sense. Ignore reason. Embrace the wanking.

LORDDOOMMASTER · Post by **LORDDOOMMASTER** » 2004-11-15 12:58am

Wow, talk about an interesting group of people posting in my topic right away! I didn't expect so many regulars to post so much (well, I suppose after someone had to post some ST stuff without any backup it was bound to happen!).

I don't think I have to go over most of what Ghost Rider has already done, but it seems that Kruk is once again doing exactly what I mentioned in my first post. You have no hard evidence, you are just making claims of superior tech in ST without anything to back up your claims. So far the best you've managed to come up with, and Darth Wong has already pointed out, is that calculations have been done that show a wide range. Too bad a wide range doesn't necessarily mean anything if the high end of the calcution can be shown to be a one-time fluke or that the rest of the evidence doesn't correspond to it. I could easily take the TESB asteroid vaporization and calculate the high end for the turbolaser's energy capability and say that the turbolaser has to be 1 trillion megatons (of course, ignoring the Ep2 ICS, Saxton's calculations, and SD.net's calculations already available). I mean, there's a high calculation in the trillions of megatons range, and that's just a light turbolaser used! Now apply that to the heavy turbolaser and they have to be millions of trillions of megatons in power! See why this doesn't make sense?

How about some numbers on those Q weapons that you don't need to explain? I've actually seen that episode of Voyager (unfortunately, I might add, Voyager was the most awful shows I've seen in a long time). All we know from that episode is that the Q weapons can kill a member of the Q race, as well as the members of the Voyager crew. Since they appeared as nothing more than Civil War-era weapons, we really can't say what effect they would have against anything outside of their dimension/universe/whatever they were in. At this point, we know they can kill an unarmored human and a Q. I don't think I need to point out that while the Q might demonstrate some powers, that in this episode Q didn't even have the ability to impregnate Janeway without her full and willing consent. I love it how the claimed omnipotence of the Q points out all of the amazing things they have done, but always seems to fail to point out the things that they can't do (and that's probably for a different topic of discussion anyways).

If we want an argument of one-shot wonders like you are describing Kruk, you are going to need a lot more evidence than what you are claiming for superiority. You are making a lot of claims for small, one-shot items from ST, but you don't have any knowledge of the EU of SW, nor do you seem to have anything other than conjecture and speculation as to how powerful these one-shot might be. Then you go on to make ridiculous claims of SW limitations, despite your admitted lack of knowledge about SW.

Yavin to DS? Microjump in the heavy gravity of Yavin? Do you have ANY clue at all how hyperdrives work? When the DS jumped into the Yavin system and started around the planet to target to moon, it would be in range in less than 30 minutes. The fighters travel from the moon all the way to the Death Star in a matter of a few moments.

And as for the ROTJ battle, I don't think it would be very intelligent for a group of fighters to be flying at full speed in the middle of a large group of capital ships. It is far more important in a situation such as this to maintain manueverability, not go so fast that you fly into the side of a capital ship and destroy yourself.

Well, thank you again Kruk for proving my original point. I still haven't met a Trekkie that has any understanding how science works and still doesn't have a clue when it comes to a debate such as this. I doubt that I ever will.

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2004-11-15 01:08am

StormtrooperOfDeath wrote:
The Silence and I wrote:But SW holoemitters do not/cannot create a physical hologram. ST can, and in so far as that goes ST has superior hologram technology.
That can be easily mimied with aplication of force-field tech.

I have not heard of this. Is it so realistic tactile touch is more or less perfected?

(Picard was flabbergasted by the realism of his first kiss in the holodeck, and he is not one to express himself so excitedly, so I'm confident it was quite amazing. And control of the forcefields used to do this will only improve with time; that episode was 1st season TNG.)

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-11-15 01:31am

SirNitram wrote:
Praxis wrote:Errant Venture? Superlaser? You've gotta be kidding. How can a retired old pirate who couldn't even afford to paint his ship red afford a SUPERLASER?
New Jedi Order.

Ignore sense. Ignore reason. Embrace the wanking.

What's with the anti-NJO obsession some members seem to have?

I've read NJO, every single book, and there is not one reference to the Errant Venture having a superlaser.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-11-15 01:41am

In any case, in reference to the OP, most real-life engineers and scientists seem to gravitate to the same conclusions once they spend any time studying this topic because they are trained to employ similar methods. People who have no such training don't feel any particular compulsion to do things that way, no matter how much sense those methods may make. It doesn't help that a lot of these people harbour a certain level of resentment and hostility toward people who do know how to use such methods.

DarkSilver · Post by **DarkSilver** » 2004-11-15 02:08am

In my response to this, I have but not much to say except this...

It seems all of the Intellegent Star Trek fans (all 20 of us.....) , simply do not get primarily involved in these debates, we simply don't see much excercise in debating the ability of a war like civilization who has had 25 milliniia (please excuse any further mispellings) and controls a vast portion of a galaxy, over a space faring society who has had a fraction of that time to work on it's own tech, and controls a small portion of it's own galaxy.

Besides, a good point made by a friend of mines was this: "Star Trek is Sci-Fiction, Star Wars is Sci-Fantasy - you can't truly compare the two."

The only reason I began to even look into the debates (and note, I do not take them at all seriously, it is simply fun to watch...except when I see fellow lovers of Trek make the rest of us out to be retards.....[no offense to any true retards out there mind you

]) and I had begun a STvSW RPG on another msg board, and was looking for information.

now back to your regularly schedualed Posting....

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2004-11-15 03:23am

The Silence and I wrote:
StormtrooperOfDeath wrote:
The Silence and I wrote:But SW holoemitters do not/cannot create a physical hologram. ST can, and in so far as that goes ST has superior hologram technology.
That can be easily mimied with aplication of force-field tech.
I have not heard of this. Is it so realistic tactile touch is more or less perfected?

(Picard was flabbergasted by the realism of his first kiss in the holodeck, and he is not one to express himself so excitedly, so I'm confident it was quite amazing. And control of the forcefields used to do this will only improve with time; that episode was 1st season TNG.)

The book in question

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-11-15 01:41pm

VS debates by their very nature may simply favor attracting "fanboys."

After all, we're just saying "my dad can beat up your dad" right? ; )

Aquatain · Post by **Aquatain** » 2004-11-15 04:43pm

Mike Wong can kick Darkstars ass!!

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-11-15 04:54pm

Aquatain wrote:Mike Wong can kick Darkstars ass!!

He already did that several times.

I think he doesn't find it interesting any more to spar with DS.

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2004-11-16 02:19pm

Anyone, be they a Trekkie, a Warsie, or a fan of eating raw chicken, will, if educated in the field of physics, reach the same conclusions- that the Empire wins.

In fact, you don't need to be a super-whizz at science to figure out the simple logistical stuff- the Empire's bigger resources, better construction technology, faster FTL...

A lot of Star Trek fans and Star Wars fans simply don't care about the versus debate. They probably view the rest of us as being oddities- even as they stand around with their phasers and lightsabers

Post by **Kuja** » 2004-11-16 03:20pm

Praxis wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Praxis wrote:Errant Venture? Superlaser? You've gotta be kidding. How can a retired old pirate who couldn't even afford to paint his ship red afford a SUPERLASER?
New Jedi Order.

Ignore sense. Ignore reason. Embrace the wanking.
What's with the anti-NJO obsession some members seem to have?

I've read NJO, every single book, and there is not one reference to the Errant Venture having a superlaser.

NJO Sourcebook.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2004-11-16 04:14pm

SirNitram wrote:
Praxis wrote:Errant Venture? Superlaser? You've gotta be kidding. How can a retired old pirate who couldn't even afford to paint his ship red afford a SUPERLASER?
New Jedi Order.

Ignore sense. Ignore reason. Embrace the wanking.

It doesn't have one in the NJO. It gains many Turbolasers and Laser cannon from the dying Lusankya, but doesn't have a Superlaser!

It's an ISD for Christ Sake!!