ok, just for sheer giggles

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-12-07 03:18pm

In other words, Good point!

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-12-07 03:28pm

Well taking into acount that Klingon "armor" won't protect you from anything short of bad breath. in anywhere but the klingon ship the ewoks would win and it's possible that ewoks would win in the ship also.

Bellator · Post by **Bellator** » 2004-12-07 03:46pm

Awww...I see the little person wants to go "It's obvious that since the Klingons wear armor...and it's metal = impentrable!!"

Only a Trektard would look at a largely cloth uniform with metal plates on the shoulders and conclude that the entire Klingon body is sheathed in impenetrable metal.

Shit, can't you people read? Klingon armor obviously doesn't cover the entire body. I have stated that more than once. Your president stated that reading is the new civil right. Exercise that right, it won't hurt you.

And of course metal isn't impentrable, but any of you have yet to show that a primitive wooden spear can penetrate metal plates. Even if the Ewoks manage to throw it with enough force, it's likely that the spear won't penetrate the metal, considering the relative dullness of the tip and the relative weakness of the wood.

And shit. We all know Klingons suck at combat and pretty much everything else...but to actually suggest that stone age teddy bears can take them in hand to hand combat is just to much fanboy wankery.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-12-07 04:00pm

Bellator wrote:
Awww...I see the little person wants to go "It's obvious that since the Klingons wear armor...and it's metal = impentrable!!"

Only a Trektard would look at a largely cloth uniform with metal plates on the shoulders and conclude that the entire Klingon body is sheathed in impenetrable metal.
Shit, can't you people read? Klingon armor obviously doesn't cover the entire body. I have stated that more than once. Your president stated that reading is the new civil right. Exercise that right, it won't hurt you.

AND THAT MEANS YOU CAN'T ASSUME KLINGONS WILL BE IMMUNE TO EWOK WEAPONS, YOU FUCKING MORON. If anyone needs to learn how to read around here, it's you, fucktard. The ONLY part which appears to have anything resembling armour is the shoulders, and I don't think the Ewoks will be aiming for the shoulders.

And of course metal isn't impentrable, but any of you have yet to show that a primitive wooden spear can penetrate metal plates.

Depending on the thickness of the plate, it can. This is a simple matter of mathematics, dipshit. And that's to say nothing of simply heaving rocks at the Klingons.

Even if the Ewoks manage to throw it with enough force, it's likely that the spear won't penetrate the metal, considering the relative dullness of the tip and the relative weakness of the wood.

It doesn't have to penetrate the metal, you blithering idiot. That was the whole point of reminding you for the umpteenth time that the only metal plates in their "armour" cover their shoulders: a target several feet above the point where Ewoks are likely to stab them.

And shit. We all know Klingons suck at combat and pretty much everything else...but to actually suggest that stone age teddy bears can take them in hand to hand combat is just to much fanboy wankery.

Why? Because you say so?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-12-07 04:06pm

well taking into acount that most of klingons body is covered either by cloth or leather not metal and that ewok spears do penetrate the ruber body glove of the Stormtroopers. I dout that Kligon uniforms will protect their bodies (unless the ewoks for some weird reason hit only shoulders of kligon warriors). While Kligon hve size (and probaly strength) advantance, only the Borg have poorer the tactical abilities.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-12-07 04:24pm

[quote="Bellator"]<snip Klingon fellatio and hand-waving>[quote]

Cry for me. The point is that the ewoks don't *have* to penetrate the goddamned armor, idiot. there's plenty of exposed flesh to pierce which would be more than sufficient to disable a Klingon attacker. The only points you've made is that their torso are armored and they're taller.

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2004-12-07 04:30pm

That fabulous example of small unit tactics also was a fabulous example of massive numerical superiority (not-applicable) and using traps. Which is why I gave the jungle to the Ewoks.

Klingon armor? My assessments are not counting on it. As many of us noticed right off the bat, it starts too high to be useful even if it IS completely impervious to spears.

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2004-12-07 04:32pm

Oh, and when I said the spears were wooden, I meant the haft. That's the part you would be breaking, not the tip. So no, I wasn't hallucinating away those stone spearheads.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2004-12-07 05:57pm

I still see no explanation for HOW the klingon will be breaking the hafts of the spears. In many years of watching Star Trek i can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times i've ever seen a Klingon duck, dorge or try and parry anything other than another Bat'leth. The people defending the Klingons also forget that we've seen Ewoks also use bows and arrows, hurled rocks the rocks on rope thingie the Ewoks used to strangle the stormies on Endor. The Ewoks have also demonstrated planned co-ordinated tatics where as our Klingon friends main tatic seems to be based on the Battle of the Somme.

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2004-12-07 06:12pm

First, on a technicality, the restrictions were 'no tecch above hand to hand'. Bows are a distinct technological improvement above immediate range weapons. SO, we can either choose to follow it very literally so the Ewoks are denied their bows and bolos just like the Klingons are denied their blasters, or we can allow the Klingons access to their own archaic ranged weaponry.

Second, really, how much combat with B'atleths do we SEE? I can count the instances on one hand, so seeing a comparable number of instances of parrying is really not that strong a statement.

OK, signing off for today...

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2004-12-07 06:23pm

drachefly wrote:Oh, and when I said the spears were wooden, I meant the haft. That's the part you would be breaking, not the tip. So no, I wasn't hallucinating away those stone spearheads.

I think remedial melee is in order here...

a) you dont let them catch your weapon edge on, you parry using the flat. and
b) spears allow very close ranks meaning as you try to parry spearman 1, spearman 2 stabs you because they are more tightly packed with more of them facing each individual attacker.

The ewoks good co-ordination and small size make b) exceedingly effective.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2004-12-07 06:24pm

So you say because we don't see much Bat'leth fighting the klingons must have skills we never saw them use? Did you miss the Dominion War episodes of DS9 or Way of the Warrior where a whole fucking fleets worth of Klingon's attack DS9? FFS Dukat was beating Klingons with their own weapons and while Dukat was Cardassian Military a Bat'let isn't his native weapon and it's extreemly unlikely he had more training with it than the dozens of Klingons he butchered.

As for the bows, don't be such a fucking nitpicker, next you'll say spears cannot be hurled becuase then it's a ranged weapon and not hand to hand.

I don't know whats worse, Klingons getting stomped by space teddybears or the Klingon apologists trying to make excuses for them.

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2004-12-07 06:37pm

(I'm back -- next train, I guess)

FFS Dukat was beating Klingons with their own weapons and while Dukat was Cardassian Military a Bat'let isn't his native weapon and it's extreemly unlikely he had more training with it than the dozens of Klingons he butchered.

I missed that. Pathetic. :

: That does remind me of another advantage that hasn't been dealt with terribly much:

Though the Klingons may have extensive experience with hand-hand, it is principally ceremonial and stylized. With that in mind, I guess that would nullify a lot of the basic parity of skill they would have. Prior to your note about Gul Dukat, I had assumed that most Klingons' combat experience would be, well, basically useful. But with that scene in mind I guess it's not.

I guess that decides it then.

As for the bows, don't be such a fucking nitpicker

Well, once you arbitrarily strip one side of its ranged weaponry because it's too advanced, that completely screws everything up. It would be like saying, "Federation against the Empire, only the Empire isn't allowed to use its spaceships because they're too powerful." which would be ridiculous. So nitpick or not, it's absolutely crucial. Or rather, it would have been, if the Klingons in question were basically competent.

Maybe if we were to take ancient klingons, before the advent of the blaster, so they were using the weaponry they were familiar with... but of course that's not the same battle at all...

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2004-12-07 06:41pm

also if you want to nitpick klingons use DISRUPTORS Star Wars armies use BLASTERS

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2004-12-07 06:47pm

but while I'm here, I'll still defend the points that stand, including the abilities of a competent Klingon combatant:

a) you dont let them catch your weapon edge on, you parry using the flat.

If you have a sword-breaker kind of weapon, the idea is to catch their weapon in the concavity, then twist your weapon to break theirs. Note the many concavities and even closed curves on a Bat'leth, which would make it suitable for this kind of work.

Attacking the weapon was popular in Greek and Roman times against spear-wielders. Heck, in renaissance times when the Spanish were (correctly or not) considered the greatest swordsmen around, they would send men up against pike with a small buckler and a sword. They would cut off one spearhead, parry the next with the buckler, and then they were inside the phalanx and could begin the slaughter. It was a skill-intensive operation, but it was far enough from suicide that it was done extensively.

And as for option B, well, you seem to be ignoring numeric parity or assuming the Klingons would split up and charge the groups individually. Well, that last one is a pretty good assumption.

OK, now I must go.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2004-12-07 06:56pm

Once again you display ignorance of Klingon tatics. There is no mass charge, Klingons think only of themselves and their own honour in battle. In the times ST has shown Klingons in action they've never charged en masse and neither have then shown the skills even close to a Spanish Swordsman.

Sorry man any way you cut it the Ewoks are smarter and get the win, although with heavy losses.

Winston Blake · Post by **Winston Blake** » 2004-12-08 12:02am

Lord Pounder wrote:As for the bows, don't be such a fucking nitpicker, next you'll say spears cannot be hurled becuase then it's a ranged weapon and not hand to hand.

I have to support drachefly here, bows and arrows are ranged weapons. A spear can be used as a pike or a javelin, and rocks can be used as clubs. Do ewoks use clubs or axes at all?

So basically what we've got on the Klingon ship and Iowa plains is the ewoks bunching up and forming a phalanx with their spears while the Klingons run at them, screaming and waving their batleths and bleed to death from wounds in unarmoured areas.

What if the Klingons throw their batleths/etc at the ewoks? I know we can't expect them to, based on the available evidence, but did ewoks actually throw spears in ROTJ?

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-12-08 01:03am

Winston Blake wrote:What if the Klingons throw their batleths/etc at the ewoks? I know we can't expect them to, based on the available evidence, but did ewoks actually throw spears in ROTJ?

You have to actually be able to throw the bat'leth, which do to it's shape, ain't that likely. Throwing knives takes practice, otherwise you end up quite likely to hit the target with the hilt of the knife. In any case, while the Klingons are doing that, the Ewoks are throwing rocks at you.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-12-08 06:39am

Winston Blake wrote:I have to support drachefly here, bows and arrows are ranged weapons. A spear can be used as a pike or a javelin, and rocks can be used as clubs. Do ewoks use clubs or axes at all?

You don't rememebr the royal beatdown of the poor storm trooper that had a rock dropped on him? Stick with a rock on it.

So basically what we've got on the Klingon ship and Iowa plains is the ewoks bunching up and forming a phalanx with their spears while the Klingons run at them, screaming and waving their batleths and bleed to death from wounds in unarmoured areas.

They don't necessarily have to be in a phalanx formation, even. Also, allow me to point out that were you to have a stone spear driven through, say...your crotch, for instance (A most likely wounding area), your combat effectiveness is probably reduced to something on the order of 10%. Additionally, the ewoks have shown that when the enemy is down they don't necessarily assume he's out (Which goes back to me beatdown example) so it is unlikely that they are just going to leave the crotch-skewered klingon to bleed to death. Nay, he will probably end up with a face full of ewok foot and knapped flint. ensuring his combat effectiveness is 0%.

What if the Klingons throw their batleths/etc at the ewoks? I know we can't expect them to, based on the available evidence, but did ewoks actually throw spears in ROTJ?

As a supplement to the unlikelihood of actually throwing a bat'leth (Unlikely, a klingon would die before giving up his sole means of obtaining GLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORYYYYYYYY AND HONOR™, and this is not to mention that...I mean, look at it...if you try to throw one of those things, you'd probably succeed brilliantly in fileting yourself.) I can count on no fingers the times I've seen klingons do such a thing. It is far more likely that they will pick up a packing crate of DOOM™ and hurl towards the ewoks. an option which only becomes available to Klingon crew member #3 on their ship, where crates are often placed in haphazard fashion in no particular order to provide cover for a firefight.

Winston Blake · Post by **Winston Blake** » 2004-12-08 06:51am

Yeah, batleths are pretty damn useless for throwing. Although i once saw a klingon throw some kind of dagger at a senile klingon in the middle of space battle (and Worf caught it in mid-flight, then knocked out the old guy), but i can't remember the episode.

Also, allow me to point out that were you to have a stone spear driven through, say...your crotch, for instance (A most likely wounding area), your combat effectiveness is probably reduced to something on the order of 10%.

Ah, but klingons have redundant organs, such as the extra 47 testicles where their brains should be (maybe that explains the ridges).

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-12-08 07:11am

Winston Blake wrote:Ah, but klingons have redundant organs, such as the extra 47 testicles where their brains should be (maybe that explains the ridges).

Touche'

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2004-12-08 07:31am

drachefly wrote:but while I'm here, I'll still defend the points that stand, including the abilities of a competent Klingon combatant:

a) you dont let them catch your weapon edge on, you parry using the flat.
If you have a sword-breaker kind of weapon, the idea is to catch their weapon in the concavity, then twist your weapon to break theirs. Note the many concavities and even closed curves on a Bat'leth, which would make it suitable for this kind of work.

Attacking the weapon was popular in Greek and Roman times against spear-wielders. Heck, in renaissance times when the Spanish were (correctly or not) considered the greatest swordsmen around, they would send men up against pike with a small buckler and a sword. They would cut off one spearhead, parry the next with the buckler, and then they were inside the phalanx and could begin the slaughter. It was a skill-intensive operation, but it was far enough from suicide that it was done extensively.

And as for option B, well, you seem to be ignoring numeric parity or assuming the Klingons would split up and charge the groups individually. Well, that last one is a pretty good assumption.

OK, now I must go.

Right, do you know why sword breakers were not usually a major battlefield weapon?

It's because they are actually fairly crap, your opponent does no simply let you catch and break their weapon, they try to avoid this. Have you any actual experience with using such weapons?

As for the number parity you nimrod I addressed that with the fact that the spearmen can fight more tightly grouped. That means that at any given spot there are more ewoks than klingons, while there may be more an equal number overall, only so many can be fighting at a given moment. It's tactical superiority...

Edit: I should also add the reason for such tactics working against pikes is because of the unwieldy nature of the weapon. That extra 6' makes a world of difference concerning the fine control you have over the point.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-12-08 07:46am

Do Klingon ships have arial shafts? Because if they do, I see those small Ewoks taking full advantage of that (can we say "Alien"?

)

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2004-12-08 08:27am

wautd wrote:Do Klingon ships have arial shafts? Because if they do, I see those small Ewoks taking full advantage of that (can we say "Alien"? )

Tribbles fuck Klingons up, what are bigger fuzzier things with spears gonna do to 'em?

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2004-12-08 01:18pm

Lord Pounder wrote:Once again you display ignorance of Klingon tatics. There is no mass charge, Klingons think only of themselves and their own honour in battle.

Look, idiot. Reread my post. I already explicitly stated that the Klingons would NOT use wise tactics. So do not say that I was stating they would.

As for the swordbreakers example, yes, things were different IRL on Earth. My whole point was that the basic idea of trapping the enemy's weapon and breaking it was not a bad one, which is what seemed to be the argument.

As for smallness of weapons, well, have you ever heard of a time-hit? In the highest level of Tai Chi, there are no parries. Instead, when someone punches or kicks at you, you attack their limb, disabling it, with the pleasant side effect that you are not hit. This would be the equivalent with weapons.

Especially considering the geometry of a Bat'leth, it looks like trapping a long pointy stick would be comparatively easy just by twisting.