"Boosted" Star Trek vs. Star Wars

[Kuja]

Invincible against fighter-level weapons maybe, but I seriously doubt it could survive a full-on turbolaser bombardment from the DS.

Didn't take quite a beating from Daala's Star Destroyers? And then survive accerating straight through one of them?[/quote]

It got hit with the point-defense guns IIRC and rammed through the bridge. This does not even begin to compare to what the DS can unleash.

[Dark Hellion]

Just a question Hyperion, why give ST the tech of TA without giving nanolathing, the one major technology that TA has. While Heavy Armour is good and DGuns absurd, both have major limitations. TAs thing was not that it had bigger guns, or better units, it simply has about 10,000,000,000 times as many as you. (TA canonically strip mined all but a few dozen planets of a galaxy for war production in under 4000 years. It considers constructing a planet in under a week to be a rudimentary task.)

[Crazedwraith]

Invincible against fighter-level weapons maybe, but I seriously doubt it could survive a full-on turbolaser bombardment from the DS.

Didn't take quite a beating from Daala's Star Destroyers? And then survive accerating straight through one of them?

That's equivalent to 1,250,000 200 gigaton minimum Turbolasers and one superlaser rated at 20 billion trillion megatons how again?

And the DS can bring all its weapons to bear on a fighter size craft how again?

[HyperionX]

Just a question Hyperion, why give ST the tech of TA without giving nanolathing, the one major technology that TA has. While Heavy Armour is good and DGuns absurd, both have major limitations. TAs thing was not that it had bigger guns, or better units, it simply has about 10,000,000,000 times as many as you. (TA canonically strip mined all but a few dozen planets of a galaxy for war production in under 4000 years. It considers constructing a planet in under a week to be a rudimentary task.)

But then wouldn't ST win easily?

[Eleas]

And the DS can bring all its weapons to bear on a fighter size craft how again?

It's not a question of "bringing to bear" so much as "saturating the whole god damn sector". If the Sun Crusher wishes to approach the DS in any way, and the DS pours on the fire, some ten thousand heavy turbolaser bolts should hit every few seconds.

[jawbertsc]

And the DS can bring all its weapons to bear on a fighter size craft how again?

It's not a question of "bringing to bear" so much as "saturating the whole god damn sector". If the Sun Crusher wishes to approach the DS in any way, and the DS pours on the fire, some ten thousand heavy turbolaser bolts should hit every few seconds.

That worked so well in Ep 4. My question is why does the suncrusher even approach the DS. All it has to do is blow up the star where the DS is and goodbye DS

[Manus Celer Dei]

Or just fire a resonanse torpedo at the death star. Assuming it's going against a completed DS here, it should work. In the books the reaction died out because the DS it was firing at was mostly framwork, allowing the reaction to die out quickly.

[Admiral Bravo]

Or just fire a resonanse torpedo at the death star. Assuming it's going against a completed DS here, it should work. In the books the reaction died out because the DS it was firing at was mostly framwork, allowing the reaction to die out quickly.

I belive that a certain book said that a suncrusher torpedo does only light damage to a starship. It was never meant to be used as a anti-starship weapon unless there are starships in a star system whose star went supernova.

[Chmee]

One issue I haven't seen brought up in these hypotheticals so far (and it probably has been somewhere else) is ethics or moral codes .... the Federation in particular is handicapped by some moral codes that don't encumber the Empire. But what if they cast them aside?

Without any moral restraints, then the Federation is just going to time-travel until they win, right? From the TOS era on, the Federation knows how to time-travel, but they generally choose not to in the precursor of the Temporal Prime Directive.

The Feds have nothing to match Dark Jedi .... unless they cast aside moral concerns, drag a bunch of people with high psi ratings to the edge of the galaxy, and push them through the energy barrier to produce a few new Gary Mitchells (and yes, I see some pitfalls in THIS particular plan!).

And if things get really down & dirty, isn't the Federation going to mass-produce androids with human minds based on what they learned from Harry Mudd's 'bots? Aren't they going to deploy shock-troops with hyper-accelerated (but short-lived) bodies using that drug the Scalosians showed them? Won't they lean on their buddies the Kelvans for some of those neat weapons that turn people into sugarcubes ... not to mention those personal body shields that stand up to full phaser fire?

There's a lot of problematic alien races for the Empire if you just stick to TOS, starting with the Organians ... I mean, they created too much of a problem for Trek to ever deal with again, having the power to freeze entire battle fleets in place across the galaxy.

That's part of the problem with TOS for this kind of hypothetical, it just threw in so many non-technical wild cards.

[Eleas]

That worked so well in Ep 4. My question is why does the suncrusher even approach the DS. All it has to do is blow up the star where the DS is and goodbye DS

You're right. It's painfully obvious that the Death Star will elect to sit still for the several hours it will take for the sun to explode. Congratulations; you have won your first argument.

Oops. Sorry. I must have somehow jacked into an alternative dimension where you're not a fucking tool.

As for your muddled attempt at rebuttign my point on the DS' turbolasers, the snubfighters were expected and considered unthreatening, and thus few cannons were brought to bear. The question was how the DS would be able to kill the Sun Crusher, not if its commander would want to or not.

Or just fire a resonanse torpedo at the death star. Assuming it's going against a completed DS here, it should work. In the books the reaction died out because the DS it was firing at was mostly framwork, allowing the reaction to die out quickly.

You are aware that the supernova torpedoes weren't DET weapons, right? And that the DS prototype was unshielded?

Christ, people. This has to be a goddamned joke. I can't accept that such blatantly stupid posts can occur twice in a row without causing a forum malfunction.

[Ghost Rider]

One issue I haven't seen brought up in these hypotheticals so far (and it probably has been somewhere else) is ethics or moral codes .... the Federation in particular is handicapped by some moral codes that don't encumber the Empire. But what if they cast them aside?

Without any moral restraints, then the Federation is just going to time-travel until they win, right? From the TOS era on, the Federation knows how to time-travel, but they generally choose not to in the precursor of the Temporal Prime Directive.

How would that make them win, they would have to travel further then ever have to even be on par with the firepower they are facing...10K in years.

Maybe more.

The Feds have nothing to match Dark Jedi .... unless they cast aside moral concerns, drag a bunch of people with high psi ratings to the edge of the galaxy, and push them through the energy barrier to produce a few new Gary Mitchells (and yes, I see some pitfalls in THIS particular plan!).

Prove that they can duplicate the effect.

And if things get really down & dirty, isn't the Federation going to mass-produce androids with human minds based on what they learned from Harry Mudd's 'bots? Aren't they going to deploy shock-troops with hyper-accelerated (but short-lived) bodies using that drug the Scalosians showed them? Won't they lean on their buddies the Kelvans for some of those neat weapons that turn people into sugarcubes ... not to mention those personal body shields that stand up to full phaser fire?

Prove they can.

Given DATA was unique...and they never did this in their own universe.

There's a lot of problematic alien races for the Empire if you just stick to TOS, starting with the Organians ... I mean, they created too much of a problem for Trek to ever deal with again, having the power to freeze entire battle fleets in place across the galaxy.

That's part of the problem with TOS for this kind of hypothetical, it just threw in so many non-technical wild cards.

And we throw in the Hyperspace aliens and it's no longer the Empire vs the Federation.

And just for the matter, you think you are honestly the first to come up with any of this inane shit?

[Chmee]

How would that make them win, they would have to travel further then ever have to even be on par with the firepower they are facing...10K in years.

If you're ready to just throw caution to the winds and not worry about destroying the whole universe with cumulative time paradoxes (desparate times call for desparate measures), time travel is a huge tactical advantage as long as you're the only side that has it. Every time you fight a battle and lose, you just go back in time and take what you've learned into the next battle and modify tactics accordingly. Yes, this involves a tremendous number of paradoxes and it's one reason why writing good time-travel fiction is a real pain in the ass, but TOS opened this can of worms, should I ignore their possession of the technology? It's a real differentiator between ST and SW science.

Prove they can.

Prove? I don't know, that has a fairly technical meaning to me. Should I call expert witnesses? Who'd you have in mind, Zephram Cochrane? Captain Pike? Maybe I should subpoena Spock? Nobody can 'prove' anything in this kind of discussion, all you can do is offer a point of view with supporting arguments.

And we throw in the Hyperspace aliens and it's no longer the Empire vs the Federation.

Yes, thanks, you have supported my point exactly ... there are many non-technical wild cards at play. Should I ignore their existence? I feel I would earn some well-justified criticism if I did.

And just for the matter, you think you are honestly the first to come up with any of this inane shit?

Well, since I never said that I thought I was, and in fact prefaced the whole statement with the possibility that I wasn't, then I guess your answer is no.

[Ghost Rider]

How would that make them win, they would have to travel further then ever have to even be on par with the firepower they are facing...10K in years.

If you're ready to just throw caution to the winds and not worry about destroying the whole universe with cumulative time paradoxes (desparate times call for desparate measures), time travel is a huge tactical advantage as long as you're the only side that has it. Every time you fight a battle and lose, you just go back in time and take what you've learned into the next battle and modify tactics accordingly. Yes, this involves a tremendous number of paradoxes and it's one reason why writing good time-travel fiction is a real pain in the ass, but TOS opened this can of worms, should I ignore their possession of the technology? It's a real differentiator between ST and SW science.

Prove it doesn't dissolve into multiple time line like TNG showed an innumberable time.

Time travel is a cop out because you have no effective predictors in the ST universe.

Prove they can.

Prove? I don't know, that has a fairly technical meaning to me. Should I call expert witnesses? Who'd you have in mind, Zephram Cochrane? Captain Pike? Maybe I should subpoena Spock? Nobody can 'prove' anything in this kind of discussion, all you can do is offer a point of view with supporting arguments.

Concession accepted.

Through all that drivel you couldn't prove a shadow of a doubt that you weren't pulling this from your ass from canon sources.

Y'know this entire site, or did that escape you?

And we throw in the Hyperspace aliens and it's no longer the Empire vs the Federation.

Yes, thanks, you have supported my point exactly ... there are many non-technical wild cards at play. Should I ignore their existence? I feel I would earn some well-justified criticism if I did.

Concession accepted, the battle is not about the resources of Star Trek universe vs the Star Wars universe.

Even in the boosted it was about different races on the Federation levels.

Gods vs Gods is purely subjective who fires first and anyone can play that game.

And just for the matter, you think you are honestly the first to come up with any of this inane shit?

Well, since I never said that I thought I was, and in fact prefaced the whole statement with the possibility that I wasn't, then I guess your answer is no.

Learn to use the Search button.

[Chmee]

Ghost, your whole post reminds me of a favorite Oscar Wilde quote:

"I am not young enough to know everything."

You don't want to discuss, you want to 'win', although there is no such thing as winning in a hypothetical discussion ... and so ultimately, you don't get any discussion at all, and you lose the only thing that was there to gain. Your loss.

[Eleas]

You don't want to discuss, you want to 'win', although there is no such thing as winning in a hypothetical discussion ... and so ultimately, you don't get any discussion at all, and you lose the only thing that was there to gain. Your loss.

Ah. You must be new.

[Chmee]

You don't want to discuss, you want to 'win', although there is no such thing as winning in a hypothetical discussion ... and so ultimately, you don't get any discussion at all, and you lose the only thing that was there to gain. Your loss.

Ah. You must be new.

Nah, you run into that attitude all over the place, from the junior high playground to half the forums on the 'Net. It's as new as two dogs fighting over a bone with no meat left on it.

[Ghost Rider]

Ghost, your whole post reminds me of a favorite Oscar Wilde quote:

"I am not young enough to know everything."

You don't want to discuss, you want to 'win', although there is no such thing as winning in a hypothetical discussion ... and so ultimately, you don't get any discussion at all, and you lose the only thing that was there to gain. Your loss.

Thank you for your pointless "I'm not gonna give you the satisfaction that I cannot counter any of your claims!"

Have a pleasent stay.

[Chmee]

Ghost, your whole post reminds me of a favorite Oscar Wilde quote:

"I am not young enough to know everything."

You don't want to discuss, you want to 'win', although there is no such thing as winning in a hypothetical discussion ... and so ultimately, you don't get any discussion at all, and you lose the only thing that was there to gain. Your loss.

Thank you for your pointless "I'm not gonna give you the satisfaction that I cannot counter any of your claims!"

Have a pleasent stay.

You don't want me to counter them, you're declaring some pyrrhic 'victory' after your self-congratulatory posts, whether there was any substance to them or not ... and if you're the kind of guy who's going to do that, then you're going to do it no matter what I say ... so what's the point of saying anything to you? Wasted electricity, isn't it? I could come back with the equally self-congratulatory 'prove it' when you say that multiple time-travel will inevitably lead to timeline dissolution, when the fact is that sometimes it has and sometimes it hasn't in different ST settings, so there's no way for us to prove, in any meaningful sense, whether it would or wouldn't. But you seem perfectly willing to congratulate yourself on 'proving' something that is entirely a personal opinion of yours and declare your 'victory'

So congratulations. Really. /bow

[Ghost Rider]

*snip trollish whining*

Like I said, have a pleasent stay.

Pointless pithy comments and "I've dealt with this behavior before!" has been done by those far more eloquent then yourself.

So you want to keep going so I shove this part into the Hall of Shame as you feel vindicated that you are getting the last word in?

[Eleas]

Nah, you run into that attitude all over the place, from the junior high playground to half the forums on the 'Net. It's as new as two dogs fighting over a bone with no meat left on it.

Then why the fuck are you here? It is, after all, the founding principle of SDnet. Aggressive debating interspersed with insults and mockery. Yet you only seem to have a problem with this behaviour when you're losing. I can't help but wonder what really sparked your sudden interest in civil behaviour.

[18-Till-I-Die]

To really even it out you'd need to have the coalition from the first post (Feds, Dominion, B5, etc) plus some tech from maybe TA and SW itself. It wouldnt be so lopsided if the Feds had better production tech (nanolathe) and at least Heavy Turbolaser tech. I dont know if they'd win but surely it be no longer as one-sided.

But to try and really own the Empire (ship to ship) it would help if they also had those Kerrim(?) Timeships from Voyager which could erase planets and ships from time-space. Thats an almost insurmountible advantage.

But i may be wrong, i'm not sure how they could really outright destroy the Empire but if i were to 'boost' Trek those would be my suggestions.

[Manus Celer Dei]

You are aware that the supernova torpedoes weren't DET weapons, right? And that the DS prototype was unshielded?

For some reason the fact that the completed death star was shielded completely escaped my mind. I apologise for is actually a very stupid post

[18-Till-I-Die]

Oh, i'm an idiot! I just thought of something--the Standard Templet Construct from WH40K.

600-GT torpedoes, weapons with BDZ capability, Warp tech, maybe even some pre-Dark Age of Technology Humans stuff, better shields, and surely better ship construction tech. Plus the Federation/Coalition could make far better use of it without being affraid of the 'machine spirits' or screwing with the Chaos Gods, and they'd get better warp drives which, since the ST universe is seemingly free of Warp Gods, would be much faster than in Warhammer 40K.

Now given about two decades to build up, that would seriously even things out quite a bit methinks.

[harbringer]

One has to ask in all this when does the federation become "not the federation" ie. when with all this tech and loss of morals and ethics does the federation cease to exist.

The feds believe that it is their guiding principals and laws coupled with respect and empathy for others that makes the federation. For proof of this there is John Luc's interminable whining about non-interference and the Doctor Bashir talking to the head of the federation dirty tricks department (which realises it would be itself illegal under federation law and solely exists becuase some hardliners feel tit for tat is all good). Despite putting someone favourable into the the leading council of the Romlulans Bashir rejected the methods because "there must be another way".

Simply put a lot of the things discussed concerning the federation allow the average captain too much leeway in ignoring moral perogatives. Having the technology demonstrated or possesing it does not automatically mean they will reproduce it (even if they could). There is some technology the federation WILL NOT use because they do not believe in it. Genisis torpedo's as a weapon, time travel as a weapon, Biological and other weapons of mass destruction or even just terror. The problem is that the moral restrictions make just the use of certain weapons forbidden and those same restrictions is what makes the federation who they are.

[Solauren]

Other possible help to the AQ

The Titan (Titan AE) just configure that thing to suck up Turbolaser fire.
Problem is, eventually the Empire will switch to Torpedoes...

How useful would stuff from Robotech (et all for the franchise) be?