Does Earth have a Planetary Shield?

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There was a Federation prison colony in TOS with a planetary shield. It was one that the E-nil was theoretically capable of bringing down but the likelihood of killing Kirk who was on the planet at the time was high.

But no references to planetary scale shielding in TNG on. It really wouldn't be hard to build a planetary shield, just use overlapping theatre shields. From the lack of San Francisco being reduced to a radioactive cinder, that may well be what was done. Or the Breen, in spite of their reputation as cold blooded killers (no pun intended), decided not to vaporize a whole crapload of Starfleet brass, the President and various council members with WMDs.

Also the 80+ Type XII phaser banks figure for Space Dock is from the Starship Spotter's Guide. Its accuracy, not unlike the DS9 Technical Manual and Star Trek: The Magazine, is easily disputed.

[Ma Deuce]

There was a Federation prison colony in TOS with a planetary shield. It was one that the E-nil was theoretically capable of bringing down but the likelihood of killing Kirk who was on the planet at the time was high.

I remember that episode, but not too well: Are you sure the shield covered the entire planet, or just the colony?

[brianeyci]

the federation period doesn't have planetary shields. it'd be surprising to see if they'd actually made a competent decision and put defense systems about the planet, but i don't recall ever seeing anything like that in the series.

Just because we don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. There are references to planetary shields in TOS. And take a look at this thread and what Silence and I says about TNG "Angel One" for an example of how Fed shields stack up against other Star Trek races.

PICARD
Calder Two isn't just another
archaeological site. There's a
Federation outpost there.

BARAN
(dismissive)
I don't see that as a problem.

PICARD
It's defended by Starfleet.
They're not going to just stand by
while we walk in and take whatever
we want.

BARAN
I'm aware of the tactical
situation.

VEKOR
(concerned)
What are their defenses?

BARAN
Nothing to worry about. They have
a type-four deflector shield
protecting the outpost and the
ruins.

PICARD
They'll also have a minimum of two
phaser banks... and possibly even
photon torpedoes. Is that enough
to worry about?

TALLERA
How do you know so much about this
outpost?

So the Federation fortifies archaeological sites with two phaser banks and possibly photon torpedoes, and theatre shielding. The big question is why wasn't Earth ever fortified. My idea is the expansion of the Federation Council from TOS in ST:IV where we see a few dozen people to DS9 where every shithole like Bajor has a representative on the Federation council, and the aliens holding back any real fortification of Earth.

Also, since nobody in ST has a ground army -- and in ground army I don't mean naval officers pressed into the role but a force dedicated to taking and holding ground -- planetary shielding wouldn't be necessary except in extreme circumstances like a prison planet. ST is not SW, ST can't do a BDZ, why not just shield the outpost/city/colony on the planet rather than the whole planet. Sure a case can be made for highly urbanized core planets like Earth, and maybe you should put shields around the whole planet to protect civilians, but militarily why not just have theatre shielding around core installations. You don't need planetary shielding to stop transporters either, just need transporter scramblers. The reason why you would need planetary shielding in ST is to protect the entire planet from a hostile force landing, like a prison breakout, or a ground army invasion (which doesn't seem to exist in ST), or planetary bombardment.

Also, people saying that the Federation (when I'm talking Federation I mean the Federation as a government, not pussy Picard) would surrender once a Super-Star Destroyer dropped out of Hyperspace in orbit around Earth and threatened to BDZ it... WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT. Sure the SSD can take on all of Starfleet, but does that matter? From what people say it sounds like you think the redshirts will mutiny once they hear of the awesome power of the SSD. Bridge crew would be the only people privy to the destructive power of the SSD, and they would for the most part follow orders from the top. Lack of Media means there wouldn't be massive civilian riots or anything. It would be the decision of Starfleet Admirals whether or not to surrender. And what is the precedent for this? Because the Federation likes diplomacy, somehow they would surrender to a hostile enemy? Did they ever consider surrender to the Borg? Did they ever consider surrender to the Dominion?

And lets not forget DS9 "Statistical..." where Bashir calculates that it would take 900 billion casualties for the Federation to even consider surrender to the Dominion. Sure, having the threat of Earth annihilated would be a big blackmail on the heads of the Federation, but what is the fucking precedent for the Federation as a government debating surrender EVER? Is it just something you pull out of your ass so that you can bash the Feds and say they are cowardly? And don't give the Cardy bullshit, the Feds negotiated the trade of a few planets because they were pussy, they didn't just roll over and die, and a few colony worlds that can be evacuated is a lot different than giving up the entire Federation. And also no Picard bullshit, for every Picard you find I can bring up a Sisko. And sure, they haven't faced an enemy like the Empire, but Federation Admirals are the only ones who could order a surrender because they would be the only ones with the big picture.

And the speed of an attack by the Empire -- taking over the entire Alpha Quadrant in a few days -- means that NOBODY would have the big picture, or maybe the Admirals with huge casualty reports flowing in. No, the Federation would fight to the death, and later individual captains, colonies, and such would surrender, but the Federation as a whole wouldn't issue a surrender order to the troops. It wouldn't have time to. The Empire might even decapitate Starfleet Command and therefore remove the only authority in the Federation that could issue the surrender order legitimately. So some would fight to the death, many would surrender, but the Federation as a whole wouldn't go to subspace and order its troops to stand down.

Brian

[brianeyci]

I remember that episode, but not too well: Are you sure the shield covered the entire planet, or just the colony?

Yes. In the linky in my above post, Teleguy points out that they said this,

The forcefield is weakest on the far side of the planet

Brian

[Praxis]

Wasn't their an episode that specificly stated that the Federation was years away from planetary shield technology?

[Darth Wong]

VEKOR
(concerned)
What are their defenses?

BARAN
Nothing to worry about. They have
a type-four deflector shield
protecting the outpost and the
ruins.

Thanks for posting a quote which disproves your own point: a single scout-class ship can easily overwhelm a type-4 deflector shield, and its captain considers this kind of defense nothing to worry about, until Picard mentions the following:

PICARD
They'll also have a minimum of two
phaser banks... and possibly even
photon torpedoes. Is that enough
to worry about?

In other words, Federation planetary defense strategy relies on being able to shoot down attackers, not ward off their weapons for any serious duration.

Also, people saying that the Federation (when I'm talking Federation I mean the Federation as a government, not pussy Picard) would surrender once a Super-Star Destroyer dropped out of Hyperspace in orbit around Earth and threatened to BDZ it... WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT.

You're a fucking moron. Name one civilization in human history that would refuse to surrender when given a choice and faced with the possibility of such mass-scale destruction. What are they supposed to do? Shoot down the SSD? With what? They couldn't even stop the Breen from trashing Starfleet HQ with a sneak attack, and an SSD would show up in low orbit with less warning than those Breen ships provided. Or do you figure they would say "ha, we be macho men and we don't care if you wipe out billions of people"?

And what is the precedent for this? Because the Federation likes diplomacy, somehow they would surrender to a hostile enemy? Did they ever consider surrender to the Borg? Did they ever consider surrender to the Dominion?

I can't believe what a moron you are; the Dominion was not in orbit over Earth with a proverbial gun on a hair-trigger pointed at the Federation's head.

And lets not forget DS9 "Statistical..." where Bashir calculates that it would take 900 billion casualties for the Federation to even consider surrender to the Dominion.

And how does he "calculate" this?

Sure, having the threat of Earth annihilated would be a big blackmail on the heads of the Federation, but what is the fucking precedent for the Federation as a government debating surrender EVER?

The whole fucking Klingon empire caved when Quo'nos' ozone layer was trashed, you idiot!

And the speed of an attack by the Empire -- taking over the entire Alpha Quadrant in a few days -- means that NOBODY would have the big picture, or maybe the Admirals with huge casualty reports flowing in. No, the Federation would fight to the death,

Oh great, another "they would fight to the death" idiot.

[Dillon]

And lets not forget DS9 "Statistical..." where Bashir calculates that it would take 900 billion casualties for the Federation to even consider surrender to the Dominion.

And how does he "calculate" this?

Actually, assuming I'm thinking of the same episode he is, you might be interested to know that it wasn't the number of casualties that it would take for the Federation to surrender, but simply a projection of the number of casualties the Feds would take in the war with the Dominion.

[Stark]

That TOS shield could hold off the E-Nils phasers on full during a brief bombardment; but they didn't stick at it, since collapsing the shield would (apparently) kill everyone, even if they shot at the opposite side of the planet. Can you tell that ep was on telly yesterday?

ST TNG planetary shields aren't good enough for siege tactics to emerge; their deflectors seem to simply be ground-based starship-scale systems able to hold off smaller ships for long enough for the local defences to kill them, and not strong enough to hide behind indefinately.

[Darth Wong]

And lets not forget DS9 "Statistical..." where Bashir calculates that it would take 900 billion casualties for the Federation to even consider surrender to the Dominion.

And how does he "calculate" this?

Actually, assuming I'm thinking of the same episode he is, you might be interested to know that it wasn't the number of casualties that it would take for the Federation to surrender, but simply a projection of the number of casualties the Feds would take in the war with the Dominion.

And it was more than an order of magnitude greater than the casualties taken by the mirror-universe Federation of "Yesterday's Enterprise" before they were teetering on the edge of defeat? I'd have to chalk that up to exaggeration on his part.

Besides, it's not just the number of kills; it's the effortlessness of it. That's why Japan surrendered before the atomic onslaught in 1945 even though it killed less people than firebombing.

[Dillon]

And it was more than an order of magnitude greater than the casualties taken by the mirror-universe Federation of "Yesterday's Enterprise" before they were teetering on the edge of defeat? I'd have to chalk that up to exaggeration on his part.

Yesterday's Enterprise is TOS, no? (I could very well be wrong about that, so correct me if I am) Perhaps during the time between the two series, about 80 years I believe, the population could have increased exponentially due to a lot of new planets joining the Federation?

Besides, it's not just the number of kills; it's the effortlessness of it. That's why Japan surrendered before the atomic onslaught in 1945 even though it killed less people than firebombing.

The main reason I pointed it out was because Brian appeared to be misunterpreting the quote, and using it as evidence against the idea of the Fed's surrendering, but that is true. And considering how easily the Dominion was ripping through the Federation's forces...

[Gandalf]

Yesterday's Enterprise is TOS, no? (I could very well be wrong about that, so correct me if I am) Perhaps during the time between the two series, about 80 years I believe, the population could have increased exponentially due to a lot of new planets joining the Federation?

Yesterday's Enterprise is TNG, season 3. Some 8 years before Bashir's business with the Jack Pack.

[brianeyci]

VEKOR
(concerned)
What are their defenses?

BARAN
Nothing to worry about. They have
a type-four deflector shield
protecting the outpost and the
ruins.

Thanks for posting a quote which disproves your own point: a single scout-class ship can easily overwhelm a type-4 deflector shield, and its captain considers this kind of defense nothing to worry about, until Picard mentions the following:

PICARD
They'll also have a minimum of two
phaser banks... and possibly even
photon torpedoes. Is that enough
to worry about?

In other words, Federation planetary defense strategy relies on being able to shoot down attackers, not ward off their weapons for any serious duration.

The point of listing that example was to show that the Federation had planetary defenses on even an archaeological outpost, not to show that the outpost had any kind of significant defenses. And Baran decided to use subterfuge and use Riker to get close to the outpost.

For a real Federation planetary defense, don't look at an archaeological outpost but TNG Angel One (which was discussed by Silence and I in the linky that I posted previous),

DATA
The border outpost reports a
contingent of seven Romulan
battlecruisers within sensor
range. The USS Berlin has
answered their distress call, and
is standing by. However, should
hostilities erupt, the outpost
and the starship will be
outgunned. It is felt that the
Enterprise's presence in the area
will be a vital show of force.

<snip>

DATA
To be precise, Commander, you
ordered me to reach the Neutral
Zone "before it is too late."
I have computed the length of time
the border outpost and USS Berlin
can safely withstand a Romulan
attack... deducted our time to
destination at maximum warp speed.
That leaves Doctor Crusher with
forty-eight more minutes to
complete her research and develop
an innoculant to the virus.

Here was my reply in that thread,

The Romulan "Battlecruiser" may have been the "old" Klingon D-7's. However, in DS9 we saw old D-7's still in service with the Klingons. The Romulans may have kept the old ships in service like you said, hiding the Warbird. Suffice it to say that the GCS is not 10x more powerful than an old D-7 given that three BOP's can destroy a GCS. Still powerful shields, even if they are using older battlecruisers.

Picard calls the attack "several Romulan Battlecruisers." Data uses plural when referring to the battlecruisers. So there is at least 2, and probably more given that Picard refers to them as several. So we have a low-end estimate of the shield being able to withstand the firepower of three old Klingon D-7's. Picard was also not worried about being outgunned by the D-7's. So, if 3 D-7's are as powerful as a GCS, a low-end estimate for the shield is that it is at least as powerful as a GCS shield.

The key here is the 48 minute figure. Given that a GCS's shields can be taken down in a few minutes from concentrated fire from 3 BOP, lasting "48 minutes" against 3 D-7's must mean that the outpost's shields are exponentially far more powerful than a GCS's shields.

You're a fucking moron. Name one civilization in human history that would refuse to surrender when given a choice and faced with the possibility of such mass-scale destruction. What are they supposed to do? Shoot down the SSD? With what? They couldn't even stop the Breen from trashing Starfleet HQ with a sneak attack, and an SSD would show up in low orbit with less warning than those Breen ships provided. Or do you figure they would say "ha, we be macho men and we don't care if you wipe out billions of people"?

That is part of the argument. SSD would annihilate SF Command so fast that there wouldn't be anybody left with the authority to issue a Federation-wide surrender order. The invasion would be so brutal, so fast, that they wouldn't have a chance to surrender. Individual ships would be unaware of the firepower of the Empire, and would likely open fire on Empire ISD's and be annihilated in a single shot. Civilians would not rebel, because there is no real mass media and SF controls the airwaves. Sure, its really impressive for a ship to appear out of nowhere and threaten to destroy your planet, but there's no reason the Feds should believe the Empire. The Empire would have to demonstrate their power by blowing up a city or something, give the Federation a chance to muse and debate, probably sit there while a Federation fleet pounds the SSD and figures out its shields are impervious, and then the Federation would surrender. In other words, the Empire would have to act out of character.

I can't believe what a moron you are; the Dominion was not in orbit over Earth with a proverbial gun on a hair-trigger pointed at the Federation's head.

And what, the Federation would just roll over and die? Please. Unless the SSD demonstrated their firepower, Starfleet Command would have no reason to believe them, if they even survived. Also, even if the SSD demonstrated their firepower by blowing up a continent, it would likely take at least one fleet engagement for the Federation to believe that the SSD's offense was as good as its defense. In other words, the Empire would have to do something out of character -- rather than using brutal force and taking out the Federation in one fell swoop, it would have to blow up a city (not San Francisco so the precious SF Admirals are safe), sit in orbit, wait for a huge Fed fleet to attack it, and then ask for surrender. The Empire wouldn't do that, they would just decapitate Starfleet Command, removing the only authority able to order a Federation-wide surrender. And if the Empire attacks all targets all at once, there would be no chance for individual colonies to break away and surrender either. It would be a bloodbath.

And lets not forget DS9 "Statistical..." where Bashir calculates that it would take 900 billion casualties for the Federation to even consider surrender to the Dominion.

And how does he "calculate" this?

This is what Bashir said,

BASHIR
If we fight, we'll take over nine
hundred billion casualties. If we
surrender, no one dies. Either
way we're in for five generations
of Dominion rule.
(the good news)
Eventually a rebellion will form,
centered on Earth. It'll start to
spread, and within another
generation, it'll succeed in
overthrowing the Dominion. The
Alpha Quadrant will unite in a
new, stronger Federation that'll
last thousands of years.
(beat)
Since we can't win, why not
surrender and save as many lives
as we can?

Bashir and his genetically engineered friends had access to classified Starfleet information -- locations of military installations, battle readiness, and so on. So the Federation would take 900 billion casualties before surrendering. Granted some of the "calculations" sound like a load of shit, especially when they say that their predictions "grow more accurate with time". But we shouldn't just totally discount their analysis since they had access to Federation strategy, Federation battle plans, maps of the Federation, etc.

Sure, having the threat of Earth annihilated would be a big blackmail on the heads of the Federation, but what is the fucking precedent for the Federation as a government debating surrender EVER?

The whole fucking Klingon empire caved when Quo'nos' ozone layer was trashed, you idiot!

The Klingon Empire did not cave. The Chancellor saw it as an opportunity to pursue his peace program. There were high ranking officials in the Klingon Empire who wanted to fight to the death and "take all by force what they propose to divide". In this case, the Chancellor had power over his/her generals.

In the Federation, the Admirals are the last word. Consider Neycheyv (sp), who was willing to commit genocide on the Borg to preserve the Federation. She would fight to the death against an enemy of the Federation, even if it meant billions of casualties. Sure, there is a difference between Federation casualties and Borg casualties, but when you decide that you would be willing to commit genocide on a race to win it is not a far stretch to say you would be willing to sacrifice billions to win (although obviously Fed could not win). And, lets not forget Admiral Satie, who was paranoid to the extreme and was court martialing Federation officers for what she percieved to be treasonous acts. What about Admiral Hansley, who fought at the front lines at Wolf 359 against the Borg. And of course there's Janeway, who has said she would rather blow up her own ship rather than surrender. This is what we see of Federation Admirals, and like it or not they have balls and in some cases wouldn't care about billions of civilian casualties. And part of the argument is that Federation Admirals wouldn't have time to absorb and take in all the information to realize the might of the Empire anyway, so there would be no Federation-wide surrender. There would just be fight, die, occupation.

Brian

[Ghost Rider]

Small problem with the whole thought Brian that the Feds wouldn't capitulate against the Empire.

The SSD appears in orbit...not a scratch it destroys the fleet around Earth, and then it tells Earth "Surrender or get slagged.".

You say they would fight red tooth and nail without thinking for half a fucking second. All the enemies they were against in their series were affected by their weaponry and are able through great strives able to be beaten.

This would be akin to facing the Klingon Battlecruiser off with 8th century tech...you can't hurt them, they can destroy you at will, and they are asking for one small thing or you die.

Sorry, you're going to have to show something a bit more objective then the Federation going "We won't die!" attitude against foes they can hurt.

[brianeyci]

Small problem with the whole thought Brian that the Feds wouldn't capitulate against the Empire.

The SSD appears in orbit...not a scratch it destroys the fleet around Earth, and then it tells Earth "Surrender or get slagged.".

You say they would fight red tooth and nail without thinking for half a fucking second. All the enemies they were against in their series were affected by their weaponry and are able through great strives able to be beaten.

Since an SSD's hull is impervious to Fed sensors, and SSD shields don't work like Fed shields and don't go down in percentages, the Feds would have no way of knowing that the SSD wasn't just about to have its shields fail and be destroyed. In other words, the attitude would be "Just one more Galaxy...". Meanwhile, the Empire is obliterating the Feds, and not giving them a chance to surrender at all.

Sorry, you're going to have to show something a bit more objective then the Federation going "We won't die!" attitude against foes they can hurt.

The problem is the Feds haven't faced an enemy they can't hurt. The only ones I remember are the Voth, and the Krenim timeship, and that was just Janeway and co. But, Janeway is a Fed Admiral, and wouldn't likely surrender to the Empire even after seeing the destruction it wrought (if she survives). You don't get much more impervious than a timeship that is immune to your weapons that can rewrite history, and Janeway didn't surrender and found a technobabble solution. Why wouldn't the Feds do what they normally do in-character -- try and find a technobabble solution? (Meanwhile they are getting killed, and more and more officers and Admirals who have the authority to issue the surrender are killed).

For the last resort -- the Empire allowing the Federation any time to absorb information and surrender anyway is out of character. They would beatdown, takeover the Federation in a matter of days, and that would be it. Sure, individual ships and maybe colonies would surrender, but a Federation-wide surrender order wouldn't happen. They just wouldn't have time, or they would probably be dead.

Brian

[Ghost Rider]

Why would the Empire care to slag every world of the Federation again?

Also when the Federation can detect no damage and the hull is unscathed...hell when the SSD plows through unaffected through ships...yes, The Federation will grasp what they are facing.

So far you've done some rather gross generalizations. The Federation is not compentent but even the dumbest foe knows when he is beaten. And the Empire isn't going to slag when they know their point is to conquer.

Also technobabble is a writer bullshit excuse, and if you're resorting to that then you might as claim you concede since you're sayin that they will have literally a writer fish their way out of it since that is what Technobabble is. A writer's back door.

[brianeyci]

Two points...one why would the Empire care?

Also when the Federation can detect no damage and the hull is unscathed...hell when the SSD plows through unaffected through ships...yes, The Federation will grasp what they are facing.

So far you've done some rather gross generalizations. The Federation is not compentent but even the dumbest foe knows when he is beaten. And the Empire isn't going to slag when they know their point is to conquer.

If the Empire does the invasion properly, SSD's and ISD's will drop out of hyperspace simultaneously and take over every Federation planet and colony there is. And, it would take someone with a grasp of the big picture to know when he was beaten. With the speed of the invasion, nobody would have the big picture, except maybe Federation Admirals. Individual Captains might surrender, but they don't have the authority to issue a Federation-wide surrender order. Many would fight to the death figuring out that the SSD was impervious, as you have said. Whoever is left would surrender, but there wouldn't be much left.

Also technobabble is a writer bullshit excuse, and if you're resorting to that then you might as claim you concede since you're sayin that they will have literally a writer fish their way out of it since that is what Technobabble is. A writer's back door.

It is a writer's excuse, but that's what we see the Feds do. Whenever they are up against insurmountable odds, they don't simply roll over and surrender. The Krenim Timeship was practically insurmountable (I don't remember how they eventually beat it, but it was through technobabble) and so was the Borg cube in ST:FC if it wasn't for Picard. Feds in character don't consider surrender as a first option, but only as a last option, and try to use their technology to overcome the odds. Sure it won't work this time, but that's what they'll try. Meanwhile, whole planets are being occupied by the Empire and those that have the authority to issue the surrender order are being killed.

Brian

[Ghost Rider]

So you're saying because of Janeway, the Federation is shown to want to take on insurmountable odds, and FC is proof they will never die.

Let's see...one is gross generalization.

The other...they were actually hurting the enemy.

Somehow you're going to have to provide proof instead of going "The TIME SHIP!!!" which revolved around one captain and all the other incidents?

Gee, they were against foes they actually could hurt and wound.

[brianeyci]

Gee, they were against foes they actually could hurt and wound.

I don't know what you want. Obviously the only evidence I can bring up are the actions of the individual ship Captains -- to my knowledge, the Federation as a whole has never faced an entity capable and intent on destroying it, except perhaps omnipotent beings which are isolated incidents anyway. If I brought up incidents of those, like you pointed out they would be isolated incidents.

At the least, I am claiming that the Federation would continue to do what it does in-character and not surrender, seek technobabble solutions, and so on, while those who are claiming that the Federation would surrender after seeing an omnipotent (to them) foe have no evidence or precedent to support them other than the generalization "they know when they're beaten". The key question is not whether they will know when they are beaten, but whether they will know when they are beaten in time. If the Empire occupies every significant Federation world before the Federation has a chance to surrender, then the Federation military does not surrender and "fights to the death" even if they didn't intend to.

Brian

[Ghost Rider]

Once again...against foes that are on the same level.

Everyone else has used what is basic human instinct when faced with a foe that can destroy them in an eyeblink.

So prove that the United States in 1800 would fare against the combined forces of the current world of the 2000 era?

At first...sure resistence would happen, but once they can't do dick against a tank...human instinct will override and any thought of resistence will only be in the ones who either have yet to face a tank or the simply insane.

Given that every foe shown in ST has been one they can wound, of course they would try. But the instant you attribute a foe you can't hurt, you better come up with some truly extraordinary evidence why they wouldn't run or surrender given, that's still human nature.

And so far you've provided none except your supposition since the one time they faced a foe they couldn't hurt...it was from a single captain. Unless you want to show me that Janeway is indicative of Starfleet, this is a very poor example.

[brianeyci]

And so far you've provided none except your supposition since the one time they faced a foe they couldn't hurt...it was from a single captain. Unless you want to show me that Janeway is indicative of Starfleet, this is a very poor example.

Part of the argument is that Janeway is a Federation Admiral, and only Federation Admirals would have the authority to issue a Federation-wide surrender order. Okay, so you will accept evidence of Federation having balls as long as I parade a large enough sample out?

There was a TNG episode where they were trapped by an omnipotent being (not Q) who was experimenting with the crew and causing them to die horrible slow deaths. Rather than let half his crew die, Picard opted to engage the autodestruct sequence.

Also, when facing the Whale Probe, they attempted to communicate, but I do not believe they ever uttered the words "We surrender" to the Whale Probe. The Fed President was there, the Fed Admiralty was able to make the decision, and there was no "We Surrender" ever sent out, only attempts to communicate with it. Sure they never figured out how to communicate with the Whale Probe, but maybe the Probe wasn't responding and understood English, so they should have sent out a "We Surrender".

The problem with the "Redshirts can see a tank therefore they would surrender" is that the redshirts literally can't see the tank. Only bridge crew would be privy, and only Federation Admirals would have the big picture and the authority to issue a Federation-wide surrender. That is why I parade out the actions of Federation Admirals, Necheyv (sp), Hasley, Satie, Janeway, etc., to show that they wouldn't as easily capitulate as some might believe. The Empire's attack would be brutal, in a matter of hours/days take over every Federation outpost, and wouldn't give them a chance to surrender. When an outdated transport can destroy Galaxies in a single shot, how does the information get out anyway that the Empire is so powerful? The distress signals coming out would be garbled, short, suddenly ending. It would be hard to put the big picture together.

Brian

[Cabwi Desco]

(YAY I started a Flamewar!)

First Contact was teh biggest load of crap in ST movies.

I believe Picard said something like "look for a variance in their shield harmonics" or some such technobable and then theres the whole idea of phasers 'changing frequency' or something..

When an SSD appears in orbit above earth it DOESNT MATTER IF THERES NO MASS MEDIA!
I mean can you honestly say noone would notice a 10km long starship in orbit? then if and when the SSD slagged a Federation base you think noone would notice?

One admiral you said was willing to commit genocide against the borg, you realize you mean Xenocide for one? For two if they declared genocide against the emprie how would know who would be federation human and Imperial Human other than what ships they are on?

Another thing, how would the federation surrender? we have no idea if the Communications systems of the Federation are compatible with Imperial Holonet or hypercomm transmissions. What are they going to do Project a Massive Holographic White flag on the planet? Would the ships shoot out probes that explode in a white flash signaling surrender?

And for another, a federation starship is like a flying bomb regardless, they would do more damage to the SSD if they flew into it, I imagine an Anti-Matter Explosion could damage an SSD, and the sheer mass of a Starship flying into the shields would easily equate to at least 30-40 proton torpedoes. Hell why not toss a warpcore at the SSD? oh yeah the subpace explosion would cause a massive damaging shockwave and possibly have innocent casualties.

Theres another thought the federation cannnot stand Innocent casualties, the empire does it practically for Fun (ex. Alderaan, New Oldtown, Pinnacle Moon).

[Batman]

There was a TNG episode where they were trapped by an omnipotent being (not Q) who was experimenting with the crew and causing them to die horrible slow deaths. Rather than let half his crew die, Picard opted to engage the autodestruct sequence.

And this is relevant how exactly?

Also, when facing the Whale Probe, they attempted to communicate, but I do not believe they ever uttered the words "We surrender" to the Whale Probe. The Fed President was there, the Fed Admiralty was able to make the decision, and there was no "We Surrender" ever sent out, only attempts to communicate with it. Sure they never figured out how to communicate with the Whale Probe, but maybe the Probe wasn't responding and understood English, so they should have sent out a "We Surrender".

as the Whale Probe never ASKED for a surrender, what would have been the point of sending one? Surrendering to an enemy who is going to anihilate you no matter what is sort of pointless, and that was the situation the Feds faced (what with no request of surrender being received.
Not comparable with the vs scenario, where there WILL be a request for surrender.

The Empire's attack would be brutal, in a matter of hours/days take over every Federation outpost, and wouldn't give them a chance to surrender.

Why the hell not?

When an outdated transport can destroy Galaxies in a single shot, how does the information get out anyway that the Empire is so powerful?

Because the Empire WANTS that information to get out? The Feds realizing the<'re outgunned thirteen trillion ways from sunday makes the Empire's job easier, thus they have no reason to delay the distribution of that data.

The distress signals coming out would be garbled, short, suddenly ending.

Garbage. As it is in the Empire's best interest to get the information out, there's no reason why they would hamper their own war efforts in this way.

[brianeyci]

First Contact was teh biggest load of crap in ST movies.

Don't like it too bad its canon.

I believe Picard said something like "look for a variance in their shield harmonics" or some such technobable and then theres the whole idea of phasers 'changing frequency' or something..

He said no such thing. He said "target these co-ordinates" to Data, and then said "trust me". He took advantage of a VWP (variable weak point), not a FWP (fixed weak point) of the Borg cube, because Picard needed to be there and needed to hear the Borg to tell where to shoot at it.

When an SSD appears in orbit above earth it DOESNT MATTER IF THERES NO MASS MEDIA! I mean can you honestly say noone would notice a 10km long starship in orbit? then if and when the SSD slagged a Federation base you think noone would notice?

So. Now you can see 10km long starships in orbit with the naked eye? What if you are on the other side of the continent? And what if Starfleet was controlling the airwaves as they did in "Paradise Lost" so you wouldn't know that the ship was hostile?

One admiral you said was willing to commit genocide against the borg, you realize you mean Xenocide for one? For two if they declared genocide against the emprie how would know who would be federation human and Imperial Human other than what ships they are on?

That was not to say that the Fed would declare genocide against the Empire (duh). That was to show to what extreme Neychev (sp), a Federation Admiral, would be willing to go to preserve the Federation, even sacrifice billions of innocent lives.

Another thing, how would the federation surrender? we have no idea if the Communications systems of the Federation are compatible with Imperial Holonet or hypercomm transmissions. What are they going to do Project a Massive Holographic White flag on the planet? Would the ships shoot out probes that explode in a white flash signaling surrender?

Duh. The Federation would not surrender. Or, at the least, they wouldn't surrender the way some are trying to say they would "OHHHHHHHHH SO BIG SHIP WE SUCK WE DIE".

Theres another thought the federation cannnot stand Innocent casualties, the empire does it practically for Fun (ex. Alderaan, New Oldtown, Pinnacle Moon).

Federation Captains individually cannot stand innocent casualties -- and even that doesn't hold up. Sisko was willing to let innocents die to settle his vendetta against Eddington (although in the end it was a ruse). Not everybody is a Picard, there are Siskos out there, and Neychevs (sp). And what about the Prime Directive? They let innocents die all the fucking time.

Brian

[brianeyci]

There was a TNG episode where they were trapped by an omnipotent being (not Q) who was experimenting with the crew and causing them to die horrible slow deaths. Rather than let half his crew die, Picard opted to engage the autodestruct sequence.

And this is relevant how exactly?

If Picard is representative of the qualities that Federation uses in putting people in the Captain's chair, then when faced with an omnipotent being Federation Captains might not roll over as easily as some think.

as the Whale Probe never ASKED for a surrender, what would have been the point of sending one? Surrendering to an enemy who is going to anihilate you no matter what is sort of pointless, and that was the situation the Feds faced (what with no request of surrender being received.
Not comparable with the vs scenario, where there WILL be a request for surrender.

Doesn't fucking matter, even if the Whale Probe never asked for a surrender. If the Feds are as pussy as some say they should have surrendered. The Whale Probe is as close as you are going to get to an omnipotent enemy in orbit around Earth. Any half-baked brain would conclude that perhaps the Whale Probe was going to destroy Earth and was attacking it, and that maybe surrender would be the only choice. And any half-baked brain would have realized that maybe the Whale Probe understood English but was choosing not to respond. Except the Federation didn't surrender, they didn't even try to. So they have balls.

What is the proof that there will be a request for surrender? Why would the Empire even need to factor enemy surrender into the equation given that one of their vessels can take on all of Starfleet? They take over everything all at once. Surrender would be a hassle more than anything.

Because the Empire WANTS that information to get out? The Feds realizing the<'re outgunned thirteen trillion ways from sunday makes the Empire's job easier, thus they have no reason to delay the distribution of that data.

Not when you so seriously outclass your opponent that you can lift a pinky finger and destroy them. Surrender would be a hassle, they can drop stormtroopers on every Federation planet and plow through Federation fleets, why would the Empire ask for surrender when they can just destroy the military just as easily and take everything over? You don't even need to worry about casualties on your side at all, and why would the Empire want to keep Federation ship assets alive since they are useless? Destroy them and you are saving the hassle of taking care of prisoners, so on. BDZing a planet is one matter, since they want to keep the resources and use the population, but keeping alive useless ships and enemy military forces who might start a rebellion?

Brian

[Praxis]

Bashir and his genetically engineered friends had access to classified Starfleet information -- locations of military installations, battle readiness, and so on. So the Federation would take 900 billion casualties before surrendering. Granted some of the "calculations" sound like a load of shit, especially when they say that their predictions "grow more accurate with time". But we shouldn't just totally discount their analysis since they had access to Federation strategy, Federation battle plans, maps of the Federation, etc.

You know, the funny thing is that you actually think this SUPPORTS your arguement.

Bashir was saying, "If we fight the Dominion, we'll take billions of casualties! We should surrender now, without fighting them!" And this was before the Dominion had even done any serious damage in the fight!

Now if the Dominion had 10,000 ships surrounding Earth and threatening to destroy it, do you think they would have surrendered? OBVIOUSLY.