Sith Lord rises to power over... the Federation?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-12-30 01:41pm

brianeyci wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Onto the other points. Let's see...how he would he enforce his edicts. Let's think...he knows he has to BUILD a power base. What he's not going to try to actually and make an enemy for the Federation given they ramped up pretty quickly for war. He has little to no real opposition since he doesn't have to hide his actions because no Jedi. He just has to be shrewd to where he makes the Federation goes.
I'm not saying its impossible. I'm saying that Palpatine would have to be even more careful than he was in the SW verse. The power base is not already there for him to take over in the ST verse, unlike in the SW verse. He has to create the equivalent of stormtroopers or a ground force to take and hold planets and has to ramp up the Federation military for when he reveals his true colours.

How so?

There are no Jedi, and he's dealing with a culture that knows war but dislikes it. The Republic needed an enemy on their doorstep prepared to rip them apart before they gave him power.

And funding a military if he creates a similar situation would garner the same result given the Federation ramped up to wartime production the instant they found an enemey that was kicking their asses and coming after them.

No, just that Palpatine would have to be more careful than he was in the SW verse. He doesn't have to make a DS2 in the ST verse, if he has Starfleet that is enough to threaten planets he doesn't like since there are no such things as planetary shields that can withstand the firepower of a fleet.

Why threaten planetary destruction?

He didn't do so until he was so firmly that more then 90% of the galaxy was rooting for him.

He's not stupid, he sees the Federation probably the same as he saw the Republic, a bunch of people who want peace and if pushed will go to extreme efforts if possible.

Again, clouding minds and influencing people is not the same as mind control. Billions would follow Palpatine, but saying that there would be no dissenting opinions at all throughout the entire Federation's 150 member worlds is absurd, especially if Palpatine goes on a power trip and disbands the Federation Council or orders a General Order 24 somewhere. It can be done, but Palpatine would just have to be really careful.

Once again...when did he show this until he firmly ensconed?

While Supreme Chancellor he played them until he practically had the Republic kissing his ass every other second.

He only dissolved the Senate when he had the Galaxy under his control, where has he shown that he goes power trippy until he has the power to do so?

There is a ST equivalent of this. There was a story arc in TNG where mind controlling aliens started maneuvering people into certain positions in Starfleet. Individual Starfleet Captains rebelled, and I don't see why this wouldn't happen to Palpatine if he was not extremely careful. That would also be not in character of Palpatine. He is a dictator and like all dictators like seeing massive armies march in front of him while he is standing on a balcony. He doesn't like dissenting opinions and would disband the Federation Council once he maneuvered the pieces into position. If you say that he would just secretly take out the lifeforce of Federation citizens while appearing to be a benign man, that is not in character with Palpatine. After Palpatine has his military might, he will act like a tyrant. If one world rebelled, he would send his equivalent of stormtroopers to that world, or if they are unavailable he would order a General Order 24. That would generate sympathy towards the rebellion cause just like it did in SW.

Rebellions would happen if Palpatine did the same thing he did in SW. Overtaxing colony worlds (in ST's case it would be asking for too many resources), disbanding the Federation Council, and being a tyrant. It won't happen right away when he is elected Fed Pres obviously. I don't see how you can draw the conclusion that just because there are no Jedi in the ST verse, that Palpatine would have a cakewalk. He would have to be just as careful, if not more because he would have to build up certain institutions from scratch like his Imperial Guard and his stormtroopers.

Also, you can't have it both ways. If Palpatine was transported to the ST verse with his force powers intact, then there is an energy field in the ST verse al la The Force, and The Force will seek to balance itself out with a virgin birth just like in SW and a few decades later we would see a lightsaber duel between whoever Palpatine chose to be his deciple. And if that guy loses, more "The One's" will be born later to balance the Force. It might be awhile, but Palpatine will eventually be defeated.

It intriguing that this said being didn't display dictorial powers until he was firmly in place...like every other smart dictator. And what rebellions are going to matter if he pulls off the same scenario with the Federation. A couple rogue captains? Maybe three or four systems?

When he makes himself known, he'll do it when he has more 99% of them so in line with his policies they believe he's the second coming of James Tiberius Kirk.

And the Force saught balance how...oh wait...that's a prophecy made by people with as much validity as saying Armageddon will happen accordin to the bible.

So don't pull out, he's bad...someone will rise against him because that would be the same as claiming George Duyba was born to defeat Saddam Hussien.

Obviously that is not what I am claiming. I am claiming that Palpatine would have to be more careful. For example I noted that there are no stormtroopers or even close equivalents, people able to take and hold ground, in ST. Nor does the Fed Pres have the powers that the Chancellor does. Nor is the Fed Fleet like the Republic's fleet -- if even a few worlds rebelled they could pose a serious threat to Palpatine's power base given that the one planet the Dominion had worried SF that it would have enough resources to construct a fleet powerful enough to challenge the Federation.

Brian

Gee...because he had to be reckless and a dumbass to guide the Republic into the Clone Wars...because there was that snag with a bunch of precognitive warriors that would crush him and his order as an ant if they suspected ANYTHING

.

Damn he would have to slowly build a fleet and ground troops and create a situation that would make the Federation believe Dominion War part 2 is coming down there throats.

Gee, he did the same with a society that was less inclined to go to war then the Federation.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-12-30 01:51pm

There is a ST equivalent of this. There was a story arc in TNG where mind controlling aliens started maneuvering people into certain positions in Starfleet. Individual Starfleet Captains rebelled, and I don't see why this wouldn't happen to Palpatine if he was not extremely careful. That would also be not in character of Palpatine. He is a dictator and like all dictators like seeing massive armies march in front of him while he is standing on a balcony. He doesn't like dissenting opinions and would disband the Federation Council once he maneuvered the pieces into position. If you say that he would just secretly take out the lifeforce of Federation citizens while appearing to be a benign man, that is not in character with Palpatine. After Palpatine has his military might, he will act like a tyrant. If one world rebelled, he would send his equivalent of stormtroopers to that world, or if they are unavailable he would order a General Order 24. That would generate sympathy towards the rebellion cause just like it did in SW.

Rebellions would happen if Palpatine did the same thing he did in SW. Overtaxing colony worlds (in ST's case it would be asking for too many resources), disbanding the Federation Council, and being a tyrant. It won't happen right away when he is elected Fed Pres obviously. I don't see how you can draw the conclusion that just because there are no Jedi in the ST verse, that Palpatine would have a cakewalk. He would have to be just as careful, if not more because he would have to build up certain institutions from scratch like his Imperial Guard and his stormtroopers.

Also, you can't have it both ways. If Palpatine was transported to the ST verse with his force powers intact, then there is an energy field in the ST verse al la The Force, and The Force will seek to balance itself out with a virgin birth just like in SW and a few decades later we would see a lightsaber duel between whoever Palpatine chose to be his deciple. And if that guy loses, more "The One's" will be born later to balance the Force. It might be awhile, but Palpatine will eventually be defeated.

This is not exactly correct. Palpatine didn't throw out the imperial council until he had ALREADY seized complete control.

If Palpatine is in control, he'll REMOVE the people who would defy his orders (like Picard). And even if he didn't, do you remember ST2? Trek ships have override codes. He'd have those codes. Therefore, he could disable any rebel ships on sight.

Palpatine again didn't tax colony worlds until he had complete control, and the problem was that there were TOO MANY of them to keep under control. There are only 150 worlds in the Federation, it's going to be a LOT easier.

Obviously that is not what I am claiming. I am claiming that Palpatine would have to be more careful. For example I noted that there are no stormtroopers or even close equivalents, people able to take and hold ground, in ST. Nor does the Fed Pres have the powers that the Chancellor does.

What are you talking about? The Chancellor never had overwhelming power. He was about equivilant to the Fed President. The only reason Palpatine got powers is that he convinced the entire council to vote him EMERGENCY POWERS and declared martial law. Guess what? The Federation President is capable of this. Did you forget Paradise Lost? One Starfleet Admiral nearly took over the Federation...

Nor is the Fed Fleet like the Republic's fleet -- if even a few worlds rebelled they could pose a serious threat to Palpatine's power base given that the one planet the Dominion had worried SF that it would have enough resources to construct a fleet powerful enough to challenge the Federation.

PLEASE. That was a special case. That world had a bunch of Ketracel white, and the Dominion would die off if they didn't have it. The Federation thought that it wouldn't matter if the Dominion got that world until suddenly Bashir said, "Hey, they can mine white there!" and they all said, "Oh no, they can keep their troops alive and rebuild and kill us!"

After he disbanded the Federation Council and ordered a couple of General Order 24's, Federation colonies and rim planets would start to seriously consider rebelling.

By the time he disbanded the Federation Council, he'd already have public opinion on his side. General Order 24's? Why is he going to have planets razed? Because he's an evil bugger? I don't think so. You're saying he's just going to march around destroying planets, so people will rebel. YEAH RIGHT. Palpatine never ordered BDZ's or Death Stars until the people were ALREADY rebelling. Circular logic on your part.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-30 02:03pm

Ghost Rider wrote:How so?

There are no Jedi, and he's dealing with a culture that knows war but dislikes it. The Republic needed an enemy on their doorstep prepared to rip them apart before they gave him power.

And funding a military if he creates a similar situation would garner the same result given the Federation ramped up to wartime production the instant they found an enemey that was kicking their asses and coming after them.

The Federation dragged its heels for a hundred years until the Borg came along and ramped up military production, if it wasn't for Q the Federation would never have been prepared for the Dominion. Earth was never properly fortified despite V'Ger, Whale Probe, Borg Cube 1 and Borg Cube 2. Ramping up military production instantly would be difficult in the Federation, there is every indication that the pacifist fuckers would resist military expansion at every turn. Palpatine would have to create an external threat, just like he did in SW with Dooku, to convince member worlds to commit resources to ramp up the military. And even then the Federation Council would drag its heels. Its not until individual member worlds were threatened by the Dominion that they agreed to create anything other than a few hundred ships.

Why threaten planetary destruction?

He didn't do so until he was so firmly that more then 90% of the galaxy was rooting for him.

He's not stupid, he sees the Federation probably the same as he saw the Republic, a bunch of people who want peace and if pushed will go to extreme efforts if possible.

I am not saying that Palpatine would threaten planetary destruction before he had his pieces in place. I am saying that Palpatine will threaten planetary destructions when he does have his pieces in place, like he did in Star Wars. This has obvious ramifications towards sympathetizers for a rebellion.

Once again...when did he show this until he firmly ensconed?

While Supreme Chancellor he played them until he practically had the Republic kissing his ass every other second.

He only dissolved the Senate when he had the Galaxy under his control, where has he shown that he goes power trippy until he has the power to do so?

Again I am not claiming that Palpatine would be stupid and dissolve the Federation Council before having the military to deal with dissenting worlds. I am saying that Palpatine would, after he had the military, disband the Federation Council. And this would create sympathy for a rebellion, or at least incense certain "outer rim" worlds who no longer have a representative or any voice to leave the Federation. Then, as he does in Sw in-character, Palpatine would either occupy that world or give a General Order 24 to terrorize everybody, creating sympathy for a rebellion.

It intriguing that this said being didn't display dictorial powers until he was firmly in place...like every other smart dictator. And what rebellions are going to matter if he pulls off the same scenario with the Federation. A couple rogue captains? Maybe three or four systems?

I have already given an example that a single world under the control of the Dominion has the resources to create a credible threat to the Federation. If he pulls off the same scenario as with the Federation, there will be a rebellion. I am not arguing for the effectiveness of such a rebellion (yet), just that there will be a rebellion. If Palpatine acts in-character, he will act like a tyrant once he has his pieces in place just like in SW.

When he makes himself known, he'll do it when he has more 99% of them so in line with his policies they believe he's the second coming of James Tiberius Kirk.

Sure. But there will be that 1%, just like in the SW galaxy, and it will be a problem for Palpatine who has to deal with redshirts and ships that take forever to go anywhere as his goons. It is not impossible, just that Palpatine has to be careful to develop the institutions that he wants to eventually take over.

And the Force saught balance how...oh wait...that's a prophecy made by people with as much validity as saying Armageddon will happen accordin to the bible.

So don't pull out, he's bad...someone will rise against him because that would be the same as claiming George Duyba was born to defeat Saddam Hussien.

Except we know that Anakin was created to bring balance to the Force, and in our universe there is no such thing as The Force so Duyba and Saddam don't count. Palpatine will technically be defeated, if it be 50 or a 100 years down his reign, by The One chosen to bring balance to the Force.

Gee...because he had to be reckless and a dumbass to guide the Republic into the Clone Wars...because there was that snag with a bunch of precognitive warriors that would crush him and his order as an ant if they suspected ANYTHING .

Damn he would have to slowly build a fleet and ground troops and create a situation that would make the Federation believe Dominion War part 2 is coming down there throats.

Gee, he did the same with a society that was less inclined to go to war then the Federation.

Sure, I'm not claiming it is impossible, rather that Palpatine would have to be really careful. There is no underestimating the incompetence of the Federation, and creating a competent military to enforce his future rule would take time. He would have to create stormtroopers from scratch, and a large enough military not just to deal with external threats but internal threats. Federation ground troops have never numbered in any more than the tens of thousands, and if Palpatine is to put his foot on the necks of any possible dissenters he will have to have a ground force numbering in the hundreds of millions to hold ground.

Brian

Bellator · Post by **Bellator** » 2004-12-30 02:09pm

Did you forget Paradise Lost? One Starfleet Admiral nearly took over the Federation...

And it was stated the people of the Federation / a number of member worlds would not stand for this and would oppose it.

one questions: what about all the telepathic races running around in the UFP? Some are obviously more more telepathic than jedi...would they be able to see through the "shroud of the dark side"? In other words, does the Shroud also work on non-force-sensitive telepaths?

and won't some member worlds try to break away from the UFP, once it becomes too centralised with Palpy in command? The UFP seems a very loose federation, with most member worlds particullary valueing their own independence.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-30 02:14pm

Praxis wrote:This is not exactly correct. Palpatine didn't throw out the imperial council until he had ALREADY seized complete control.

Yep. He will throw out the Federation Council once he has seized complete control of Starfleet. Guess what, once member worlds realize they don't have a voice at the Federation Council, especially worlds near the borders who don't feel a historic attachment to the Federation, they would try and leave the Federation. And Palpatine wouldn't like it. He wouldn't like it one bit, and would deploy his "stormtroopers" aka redshirts to take over the planet, or do a General Order 24 to make an example of them. Guess what, that creates a rebellion once border worlds realize Palpatine would go to such extraordinary lengths, or at the very least sympathy for those who are actively resisting the new "Empire".

If Palpatine is in control, he'll REMOVE the people who would defy his orders (like Picard). And even if he didn't, do you remember ST2? Trek ships have override codes. He'd have those codes. Therefore, he could disable any rebel ships on sight.

What a load of crock. Troi says that command codes would be changed as soon as they were compromised after Riker gets captured by Baran. Any rebelling Captain would change his command codes. Also removing people who would defy his orders is harder than you think. When the mind controlling aliens in Star Trek tried to slowly maneuver their men into important positions, four or five Starfleet Captains started noticing the irregular redeployments to the point they met secretly with Picard to discuss the problem.

Palpatine again didn't tax colony worlds until he had complete control, and the problem was that there were TOO MANY of them to keep under control. There are only 150 worlds in the Federation, it's going to be a LOT easier.

Not if you have the SF military as your goons. You have less worlds to keep under control, but you have less military to control those worlds with. I don't see what's your point.

What are you talking about? The Chancellor never had overwhelming power. He was about equivilant to the Fed President. The only reason Palpatine got powers is that he convinced the entire council to vote him EMERGENCY POWERS and declared martial law. Guess what? The Federation President is capable of this. Did you forget Paradise Lost? One Starfleet Admiral nearly took over the Federation...

Exactly. The Fed President had no powers to override the Federation Admirals at all, so a Fed President would have to ramp up his own legitimate power before attempting to take over the Federation, or at the v ery least have the Starfleet Admiralty under his thumb. The Fed President couldn't even dissolve the emergency powers declared by t he Fed Admiral in Paradise Lost. And one Starfleet Admiral did not nearly take over the Federation, one Starfleet Admiral nearly took over Earth. Earth is not the Federation.

PLEASE. That was a special case. That world had a bunch of Ketracel white, and the Dominion would die off if they didn't have it. The Federation thought that it wouldn't matter if the Dominion got that world until suddenly Bashir said, "Hey, they can mine white there!" and they all said, "Oh no, they can keep their troops alive and rebuild and kill us!"

Exactly proving my point. One world in the Federation, if so inclined and given the appropriate time, has enough resources to challenge the entire Federation. A few star systems rebelling against Palpatine would be a credible threat.

By the time he disbanded the Federation Council, he'd already have public opinion on his side. General Order 24's? Why is he going to have planets razed? Because he's an evil bugger? I don't think so. You're saying he's just going to march around destroying planets, so people will rebel. YEAH RIGHT. Palpatine never ordered BDZ's or Death Stars until the people were ALREADY rebelling. Circular logic on your part.

When worlds realize that they no longer have a representative on the Federation Council and therefore no longer have a voice in the Federation, they will leave the Federation, simple as that. Then Palpatine will act in-character and either send stormtroopers aka redshirts to occupy the planet, or order a General Order 24. Palpatine can't stand dissenters, and that's what's going to happen.

Brian

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-12-30 02:15pm

brianeyci wrote:Sure, I'm not claiming it is impossible, rather that Palpatine would have to be really careful. There is no underestimating the incompetence of the Federation, and creating a competent military to enforce his future rule would take time. He would have to create stormtroopers from scratch, and a large enough military not just to deal with external threats but internal threats. Federation ground troops have never numbered in any more than the tens of thousands, and if Palpatine is to put his foot on the necks of any possible dissenters he will have to have a ground force numbering in the hundreds of millions to hold ground.

Brian

the Republic had no Army what so ever after the last sith war (1,000 Before the battle of Naboo at least it's possible there had been no army since Revan's time (4,000 before the battle of Naboo)) that longer then the Federation had existed (the federation was formed 2160 and nemesis was in 2379 so the federation is only 219 years old)

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-30 02:22pm

Lord Revan wrote:the Republic had no Army what so ever after the last sith war (1,000 Before the battle of Naboo at least it's possible there had been no army since Revan's time (4,000 before the battle of Naboo)) that longer then the Federation had existed (the federation was formed 2160 and nemesis was in 2379 so the federation is only 219 years old)

Yeah, but Palpatine did create said army to enforce his rule in the guise of the Kamodians (sp?). So in the ST verse, he would have to create such an army. The Republic may have had no army, but they had Sector Defense forces and their naval troops are obviously not as stupid as redshirts to have used weapons that don't have ironsights. The Federation is starting way, way below where the Republic started, and Palpatine would have to dissolve the mentality of using cool looking banana phasers and conscript millions of men, which would be difficult to convince the Federation fuckers to do. Even during the Dominion war, the Federation had no dedicated ground force or ground transports and used naval officers and conscripts as an army, evidenced by the fact that the so-called Federation ground forces have the same ranks, uniforms, training and equipment as Federation ship's crew.

Brian

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-12-30 02:36pm

brianeyci wrote:
Praxis wrote:This is not exactly correct. Palpatine didn't throw out the imperial council until he had ALREADY seized complete control.
Yep. He will throw out the Federation Council once he has seized complete control of Starfleet. Guess what, once member worlds realize they don't have a voice at the Federation Council, especially worlds near the borders who don't feel a historic attachment to the Federation, they would try and leave the Federation. And Palpatine wouldn't like it. He wouldn't like it one bit, and would deploy his "stormtroopers" aka redshirts to take over the planet, or do a General Order 24 to make an example of them. Guess what, that creates a rebellion once border worlds realize Palpatine would go to such extraordinary lengths, or at the very least sympathy for those who are actively resisting the new "Empire".

You can't be absolutely sure of that.
1) If necessary, he can keep the council as a figurehead, just like he kept the Imperial council even though they had no actual say.
2) I didn't see a bunch of worlds in the republic trying to break away like you say the Fed worlds would, did you?

If Palpatine is in control, he'll REMOVE the people who would defy his orders (like Picard). And even if he didn't, do you remember ST2? Trek ships have override codes. He'd have those codes. Therefore, he could disable any rebel ships on sight.
What a load of crock. Troi says that command codes would be changed as soon as they were compromised after Riker gets captured by Baran. Any rebelling Captain would change his command codes. Also removing people who would defy his orders is harder than you think. When the mind controlling aliens in Star Trek tried to slowly maneuver their men into important positions, four or five Starfleet Captains started noticing the irregular redeployments to the point they met secretly with Picard to discuss the problem.

But the mind controlling aliens weren't telepathic

Palpatine again didn't tax colony worlds until he had complete control, and the problem was that there were TOO MANY of them to keep under control. There are only 150 worlds in the Federation, it's going to be a LOT easier.
Not if you have the SF military as your goons. You have less worlds to keep under control, but you have less military to control those worlds with. I don't see what's your point.

But it's a lot easier to keep tabs on 150 worlds than it is to keep tabs on millions of them

What are you talking about? The Chancellor never had overwhelming power. He was about equivilant to the Fed President. The only reason Palpatine got powers is that he convinced the entire council to vote him EMERGENCY POWERS and declared martial law. Guess what? The Federation President is capable of this. Did you forget Paradise Lost? One Starfleet Admiral nearly took over the Federation...
Exactly. The Fed President had no powers to override the Federation Admirals at all, so a Fed President would have to ramp up his own legitimate power before attempting to take over the Federation, or at the v ery least have the Starfleet Admiralty under his thumb. The Fed President couldn't even dissolve the emergency powers declared by t he Fed Admiral in Paradise Lost. And one Starfleet Admiral did not nearly take over the Federation, one Starfleet Admiral nearly took over Earth. Earth is not the Federation.

What are you talking about? The Fed President DOES have powers to override the Federation admirals. The guy was going behind his back. And the Fed President AGREED to the declaration of martial law. Did you forget that episode?

PLEASE. That was a special case. That world had a bunch of Ketracel white, and the Dominion would die off if they didn't have it. The Federation thought that it wouldn't matter if the Dominion got that world until suddenly Bashir said, "Hey, they can mine white there!" and they all said, "Oh no, they can keep their troops alive and rebuild and kill us!"
Exactly proving my point. One world in the Federation, if so inclined and given the appropriate time, has enough resources to challenge the entire Federation. A few star systems rebelling against Palpatine would be a credible threat.

Huh? Where are you getting this?
The Dominion needed the ketracel white on that world so they wouldn't DIE OFF. They'd still have half the entire CARDASSIAN UNION under their control. It's not one world the Federation was worrying about, it was the ENTIRE DOMINION.

By the time he disbanded the Federation Council, he'd already have public opinion on his side. General Order 24's? Why is he going to have planets razed? Because he's an evil bugger? I don't think so. You're saying he's just going to march around destroying planets, so people will rebel. YEAH RIGHT. Palpatine never ordered BDZ's or Death Stars until the people were ALREADY rebelling. Circular logic on your part.
When worlds realize that they no longer have a representative on the Federation Council and therefore no longer have a voice in the Federation, they will leave the Federation, simple as that. Then Palpatine will act in-character and either send stormtroopers aka redshirts to occupy the planet, or order a General Order 24. Palpatine can't stand dissenters, and that's what's going to happen.

Brian

Just like the Republic worlds did, right?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-12-30 02:38pm

brianeyci wrote:Yeah, but Palpatine did create said army to enforce his rule in the guise of the Kamodians (sp?). So in the ST verse, he would have to create such an army. The Republic may have had no army, but they had Sector Defense forces and their naval troops are obviously not as stupid as redshirts to have used weapons that don't have ironsights. The Federation is starting way, way below where the Republic started, and Palpatine would have to dissolve the mentality of using cool looking banana phasers and conscript millions of men, which would be difficult to convince the Federation fuckers to do. Even during the Dominion war, the Federation had no dedicated ground force or ground transports and used naval officers and conscripts as an army, evidenced by the fact that the so-called Federation ground forces have the same ranks, uniforms, training and equipment as Federation ship's crew.

Brian

the sectorial forces irrelevant, as they are not under the direct control of the senate. the Federation has good weapons also (the ST:FC rifles). Also the Kaminoans were way get army when he needed it, his didn't depend on them.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-30 03:25pm

Praxis wrote:You can't be absolutely sure of that.
1) If necessary, he can keep the council as a figurehead, just like he kept the Imperial council even though they had no actual say.
2) I didn't see a bunch of worlds in the republic trying to break away like you say the Fed worlds would, did you?

Except he doesn't keep the Republic Senate as a figurehead. Darth Sidious would disband the Federation Council because it is not just a body where Sidious can appoint whoever he wants, it is a body that has representatives from each of the Federation members, just like the Republic Senate (I believe).

But the mind controlling aliens weren't telepathic

So you admit your command codes idea wouldn't work. Also the telepathic thing doesn't hold weight. Sidious can't be everywhere all the time, and if he could read minds over thousands of light years he would have read the minds of rebel leaders and Vader wouldn't have had to send probes out to find the Rebel's base on Hoth. There are different levels of "mind control".

But it's a lot easier to keep tabs on 150 worlds than it is to keep tabs on millions of them

Sure, but he still has to deal with ships that move incredibly slow and goons that are way more incompetent than stormtroopers.

What are you talking about? The Fed President DOES have powers to override the Federation admirals. The guy was going behind his back. And the Fed President AGREED to the declaration of martial law. Did you forget that episode?

In theory, not in practise. Federation Admirals have the muscle, the Fed president's authority is diminished.

Huh? Where are you getting this?
The Dominion needed the ketracel white on that world so they wouldn't DIE OFF. They'd still have half the entire CARDASSIAN UNION under their control. It's not one world the Federation was worrying about, it was the ENTIRE DOMINION.

Mike Wong disagrees that this was a special case,

Main Site wrote:Size and Scope: the aforementioned superpowers are referred to as "worlds", which suggests that most of their power is concentrated around a single homeworld. This is certainly the case in the Federation, which puts all its proverbial eggs in the basket that is our solar system, and it appears to be the case for the others as well.

Ted Collins points out that in DS9, the allied forces were worried about letting the Dominion regroup at Cardassia Prime at the end of the Dominion War, which meant that they were actually afraid of an empire that was reduced to a single planet!

Single planet rebellions, say nothing of a few planets forming a coalition, would provide a credible threat to Palpatine's power base in ST.

Just like the Republic worlds did, right?

We do not see whether they rebel or not, but given that SW planetary shields are powerful enough to withstand indefinite bombardment and they had to create the Death Star, you would consider any planet who isloated itself from the Empire and raised its planetary shields to "rebel", or any planet that covertly helped the rebellion to be "rebelling", like Alderean. There is a precedent for this in ST -- the Marquis, despite decades of being hunted by Starfleet and Cardassia, were covertly equipped by Starfleet officers and planets friendly to the Marquis cause. A rebellion would happen the same way, with individual planetary governments not wanting to incur the wrath of a General Order 24, but leaning towards supplying and supporting the freedom fighters if Sidious acted in-character and started occupying planets that disobeyed his edicts.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-30 03:36pm

Lord Revan wrote:the sectorial forces irrelevant, as they are not under the direct control of the senate. the Federation has good weapons also (the ST:FC rifles). Also the Kaminoans were way get army when he needed it, his didn't depend on them.

I'm showing that Palpatine would have a more difficult time in ST creating his stormtrooper minions than in SW. The Federation having good weapons is not the only thing wrong with them, read the main site, the Federation ground forces couldn't hold ground if their life depended on it (literally). Palpatine needs a competent ground force to hold ground, and therefore he has a lot of work to do if he wants to convert redshirts to stormtroopers, or if he wants to clone a stormtrooper army totally loyal to him. Palpatine wants maddeningly loyal shock troops to hold ground wherever he so desires, and would have a hard time cloning/converting people to do this in the Federation.

Brian

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-12-30 04:56pm

brianeyci wrote:
Praxis wrote:You can't be absolutely sure of that.
1) If necessary, he can keep the council as a figurehead, just like he kept the Imperial council even though they had no actual say.
2) I didn't see a bunch of worlds in the republic trying to break away like you say the Fed worlds would, did you?
Except he doesn't keep the Republic Senate as a figurehead. Darth Sidious would disband the Federation Council because it is not just a body where Sidious can appoint whoever he wants, it is a body that has representatives from each of the Federation members, just like the Republic Senate (I believe).

Uh...he did. Didn't you watch ANH? When Darth Vader announces that the Emperor has just disbanded the Imperial Senate?

But the mind controlling aliens weren't telepathic
So you admit your command codes idea wouldn't work. Also the telepathic thing doesn't hold weight. Sidious can't be everywhere all the time, and if he could read minds over thousands of light years he would have read the minds of rebel leaders and Vader wouldn't have had to send probes out to find the Rebel's base on Hoth. There are different levels of "mind control".

He'd be able to directly read the minds of all the Admirals at SF, preventing anything large scale.

But it's a lot easier to keep tabs on 150 worlds than it is to keep tabs on millions of them
Sure, but he still has to deal with ships that move incredibly slow and goons that are way more incompetent than stormtroopers.

So? He can have forces on each world that report to him the status. It's a LOT easier to maintain control over 150 worlds.

What are you talking about? The Fed President DOES have powers to override the Federation admirals. The guy was going behind his back. And the Fed President AGREED to the declaration of martial law. Did you forget that episode?
In theory, not in practise. Federation Admirals have the muscle, the Fed president's authority is diminished.

Not at all. The reason the presidents authority was diminished is because he was a WUSS and the Admiral wanted to get rid of him, but if he declares martial law he can basicly do whatever he wants.

Huh? Where are you getting this?
The Dominion needed the ketracel white on that world so they wouldn't DIE OFF. They'd still have half the entire CARDASSIAN UNION under their control. It's not one world the Federation was worrying about, it was the ENTIRE DOMINION.
Mike Wong disagrees that this was a special case,

Main Site wrote:Size and Scope: the aforementioned superpowers are referred to as "worlds", which suggests that most of their power is concentrated around a single homeworld. This is certainly the case in the Federation, which puts all its proverbial eggs in the basket that is our solar system, and it appears to be the case for the others as well.

Ted Collins points out that in DS9, the allied forces were worried about letting the Dominion regroup at Cardassia Prime at the end of the Dominion War, which meant that they were actually afraid of an empire that was reduced to a single planet!
Single planet rebellions, say nothing of a few planets forming a coalition, would provide a credible threat to Palpatine's power base in ST.

Ahh, you're referring to Cardassian Prime. But Cardassia Prime is not an ordinary world, there are billions of people there. We're not talking about a colony world here.

Just like the Republic worlds did, right?
We do not see whether they rebel or not, but given that SW planetary shields are powerful enough to withstand indefinite bombardment and they had to create the Death Star, you would consider any planet who isloated itself from the Empire and raised its planetary shields to "rebel", or any planet that covertly helped the rebellion to be "rebelling", like Alderean. There is a precedent for this in ST -- the Marquis, despite decades of being hunted by Starfleet and Cardassia, were covertly equipped by Starfleet officers and planets friendly to the Marquis cause. A rebellion would happen the same way, with individual planetary governments not wanting to incur the wrath of a General Order 24, but leaning towards supplying and supporting the freedom fighters if Sidious acted in-character and started occupying planets that disobeyed his edicts.

There was no open rebellion by any worlds in the Empire until around the time of ROTJ, because they KNEW the Emperor would punish them. Some showed support, donated supplies and ships, but they never outright supported a rebellion.

Furthermore, he doesn't always BDZ worlds, you know. Look at Tanaab. He punished the people, but didn't kill them.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-12-30 06:10pm

Just to clarify Palpatine's mind-control powers, in HTTE, Jorus Caboath (sp) was able to control over 70,000 minds at once. Ex. When he attacked Ukio, he went into every person's mind aboard the ISDs (I think there were two, possibly three or four ISDs) to make sure everything went perfectly when their cloaks were up. He was not even close to being as powerful as the Emperor.

Also, someone mentioend the aircraft and DC example, Palpatine was able to get an Executor class ship under Coruscant without questions from the locals; albeit I don't recall the specifics of all that.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2004-12-30 06:40pm

It would be a lot easier for Palpatine to get control over the Federation, than it had been with the Old Republic.

Things are easier because:

- means of transport (ships) and communication are already controlled by the government,

- he would only have to convince 150 council-members, that he is a nice guy - not one million,

- the Federation already has outside enemies, so he doesn´t have to create any,

- Palpatine just needs to put somebody like Jellico, Layton or Pressman in command over StarFleet and use them to change SF-doctrine (same for the UFP-policy with the council),

- in ST mature clones can be created in a matter of days (without the need for Ysalamiri). Palpatine could task Section31 or the Orion-Syndicate to build up a labour-force and a military-force in a remote ore-rich-system. After one or two decades he would have a large army and fleet available to take military control of the Federation.

Really, why should he have any problems?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-30 08:29pm

Praxis wrote:Uh...he did. Didn't you watch ANH? When Darth Vader announces that the Emperor has just disbanded the Imperial Senate?

Uh I don't know what you're trying to say. So we're in agreement, that the Emperor would disband the Federation Council the same as the Imperial Senate? If you are arguing that Palpatine would disband the Federation Council after he had "his pieces ready", then we are already in agreement. Once Palpatine has Starfleet under his control, and perhaps developed a competent equivalent of stormtroopers, he will "rule by fear" like Tarkin said, but rather than threaten them with a Death Star he will threaten them with General Order 24 or occupation of their planet with the redstormies.

He'd be able to directly read the minds of all the Admirals at SF, preventing anything large scale.

Okay. But the rebellion doesn't have to start at Starfleet Command, and wouldn't start at Starfleet Command. When Leyton takes over Earth, Sisko comments that it would be the outlying Federation assets that would rebel, not that Starfleet would be in an uproar about Leyton.

So? He can have forces on each world that report to him the status. It's a LOT easier to maintain control over 150 worlds.

Palpatine would have to create these forces to hold ground from scratch, which was my initial point.

Not at all. The reason the presidents authority was diminished is because he was a WUSS and the Admiral wanted to get rid of him, but if he declares martial law he can basicly do whatever he wants.

Because the President was a WUSS he didn't order Starfleet to stand down? Come on that is a stretch. If the President had any real authority over Starfleet he would have used it. Palpatine would have to build up the authority of the President somehow, probably through appealing to the masses and starting a "democratization" program, something he didn't need to do in SW.

Ahh, you're referring to Cardassian Prime. But Cardassia Prime is not an ordinary world, there are billions of people there. We're not talking about a colony world here.

And I'm not talking about a colony world either.

Main Site wrote:A strict interpretation of this quote would be that the Federation has a sum total of roughly 150 planets under its direct control, including each and every insignificant outpost or low-population colony in its entire territory. However, this is doubtful. It is more likely that Picard is referring only to major planets. We know that the Federation is replete with systems that contain only a few hundred or few thousand colonists, and it is highly doubtful that Picard was including all of those insignificant systems when he stated his figure of 150 planets. We can conclude that the Federation probably has hundreds or perhaps even thousands of small colonies and outposts scattered throughout its territory, with roughly 150 planets that have populations numbering in the billions.

So 150 planets with populations in the billions. Plus Starfleet has been said to have two billion personnel total, and the entire Federation has a lower limit of 1 trillion total population with a reasonable estimate being two trillion population. If one or two or three or five or twenty or fifty of these worlds left the Federation (and why the hell wouldn't they after Palpatine disbanded the Federation Council), they would pose a problem for Palpatine if they covertly started building a fleet. There is also nothing special about Cardassia Prime, if anything Cardassia Prime is a shithole with little resources which fueled the Cardassian war with the Federation decades earlier. And saying that "Oh, Palpatine would be smart enough to realize not to do this until he had all the pieces in place"... come on, how many pieces can he have in place, once he has Starfleet under his control and perhaps a competent ground force he will show his true colours just like he did in SW and deal ruthlessly with those who dissent. And there is a lot of dissent in the Federation -- it took a direct threat to their worlds for the Federation council to approve increasing military resources during the Dominion war, and Earth was never fortified despite humans having a supposed special status in the Federation and Earth being attacked by every badass in the galaxy.

There was no open rebellion by any worlds in the Empire until around the time of ROTJ, because they KNEW the Emperor would punish them. Some showed support, donated supplies and ships, but they never outright supported a rebellion.

Furthermore, he doesn't always BDZ worlds, you know. Look at Tanaab. He punished the people, but didn't kill them.

That is fucking semantics. If worlds support a movement to overthrow Palpatine, then they are part of the Rebellion. Open Rebellion is stupid, even ST ships in a fleet can destroy all life on a planet and you wouldn't want to incur the wrath of a General Order 24 or occupation by redstormies. Rebellion would happen, obviously covertly at first.

I'm not saying that Palpatine would General Order 24 every single world. I'm saying that Palpatine would act in character and order the burning of one world, to bring others in line with fear. Other worlds that rebelled openly (if they dared) would probably be occupied by redstormies.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-30 08:43pm

FTeik wrote:It would be a lot easier for Palpatine to get control over the Federation, than it had been with the Old Republic.

Things are easier because:

- means of transport (ships) and communication are already controlled by the government,

No, the means of communication around Earth are controlled by Starfleet. And we have an example of a planet possessing a planetary defense force separate from Starfleet, the Vulcans (Riker had to phone the Vulcans to tell them not to shoot down a ship Picard was in). Also more examples with Bajor's fleet and military, although it was not a full member of the Federation at the time.

he would only have to convince 150 council-members, that he is a nice guy - not one million

Agreed. However, once he disbanded the Federation Council, he would have problems as worlds would leave the Federation in droves once they had no say in how the Federation was run.

- the Federation already has outside enemies, so he doesn´t have to create any,

Sure he does. For a hundred years Starfleet dragged its heels and had a fleet numbering in the mere hundreds despite Klingons and Romulans. Only when the Dominion came did the Federation ramp up spending, and then only when each individual member world was directly threatened by the Dominion. Even the Borg didn't give the Federation Council enough incentive to fortify Earth properly -- after all, its only the fucking humans why should the aliens care. That would be the attitudes of most aliens towards any increase in military, especially now that the Dominion is defeated in the AQ and the Borg can be dealt with easily by transphasic weapons.

- Palpatine just needs to put somebody like Jellico, Layton or Pressman in command over StarFleet and use them to change SF-doctrine (same for the UFP-policy with the council),

No argument here.

- in ST mature clones can be created in a matter of days (without the need for Ysalamiri). Palpatine could task Section31 or the Orion-Syndicate to build up a labour-force and a military-force in a remote ore-rich-system. After one or two decades he would have a large army and fleet available to take military control of the Federation.

Mature clones can be created in a matter of days, but there is the problem of replicant fading. If it was a matter of just always "using the original" and not making a clone of a clone, well then the world in TNG should not have had any problems, they would just always use minute samples of the original DNA rather than the clone DNA. Except they don't. So replicant fading must involve another problem, unique to cloning that the Federation hasn't solved.

Really, why should he have any problems?

He shouldn't have had any problems in the SW verse either. Palpatine would take over the Federation just as easily as he took over the Republic, but a rebellion would spring up. It might start small, but it would start, and would be a major headache for Palpatine given that single worlds have the resources to produce ships threatening to the entire Federation if so inclined.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-30 08:57pm

To bring the debate back into focus, here is what I see the claim is so far.

1. Palpatine would have no problem taking over the Federation, because the Federation is controlled and centralized anyway.

2. Palpatine wouldn't have to BDZ or occupy any planets, because he could just covertly suck the life force out of everybody and they would die happy.

3. Palpatine would have it easier than in SW, because in SW there was the Jedi Council and there are no Jedi in ST.

Responses,

1. Palpatine would have no problem taking over Starfleet, but taking over the Federation is a different matter. Once he went on his power trip and disbanded the Federation Council, worlds would no longer have a voice in the Federation and why stay in the Federation or remain sympathetic to it if you had no say in how it was run? And Palpatine would disband the Federation Council -- he did it in SW and it is in-character for him to do so in the ST verse.

2. Palpatine would do General Order 24's and occupy planets with redstormies. Why would he do that if he could just mind control everybody and manipulate people behind the scenes? Because it is in-character for him to do so. As Tarkin mentioned, the Empire planned to "rule by fear", and Palpatine would rule by fear as well. Any attempt to say he would not and just covertly suck the life force out of everybody is retarded given that in-character Palpatine is a power hungry egomaniac and wouldn't tolerate dissent. We talk about Palpatine we talk about ruling by fear.

3. News flash, the Jedi were ineffective in preventing Palpatine's plans from coming to fruition. Just because there are no Jedi in the ST verse it does not mean that Palpatine would have it any easier. Have you ever considered that Palpatine just effortlessly caught all the Jedi Masters with their pants down? Or that Palpatine spent miniscule effort, or no effort at all in tricking Yoda and the entire Jedi Council? I know people don't like to think of good old Yoda being a retard and like to say that Palpatine was spending tremendous effort concealing himself, but why should that be the case? Palpatine tricked the Jedi Council totally, and unless you are able to quantify how powerful the Jedi Council was relative to Palpatine in a way that says Palpatine expended a lot of effort concealing himself, the Jedi Council or the lack of one in the ST verse is a non sequitur.

Brian

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-12-30 09:04pm

Actually, without Jedi or equivalent, any reasonable rebellion doesn't have a white flag on a patch of green. or translated into english: hope

You have to kill him. You have to kill all of his clones. You have to kill anyone in the immediate area that he might be able to possess. You have to do this dsespite the fact that he can create events that are probably in the vicinity of 1E28 joules(rough guess on the energy needed to kill an Eclipse), and can corrupt worlds like Risa so they amp his personal energies.

Then there's the fact that no one in ST has ever even approached his capabilities at political scheming. Just reprogram all of the replicators to introduce happy drugs into the food supplies before you start the policy changes, and the rebellion never even gets off the ground.

You could also change the prefix codes on ships to give yourself master override, while allowing the captain to think that his prefix code is the final authority.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-30 09:12pm

consequences wrote:Actually, without Jedi or equivalent, any reasonable rebellion doesn't have a white flag on a patch of green. or translated into english: hope

You have to kill him. You have to kill all of his clones. You have to kill anyone in the immediate area that he might be able to possess. You have to do this dsespite the fact that he can create events that are probably in the vicinity of 1E28 joules(rough guess on the energy needed to kill an Eclipse), and can corrupt worlds like Risa so they amp his personal energies.

See my points about balance in the Force. You can't have it both ways, if Palpatine has his force powers then there is The Force in the ST verse and The Force will attempt to balance itself out and create one or many people with enough skill to eventually defeat Palpatine.

Then there's the fact that no one in ST has ever even approached his capabilities at political scheming. Just reprogram all of the replicators to introduce happy drugs into the food supplies before you start the policy changes, and the rebellion never even gets off the ground.

On every single world? Two trillion people? And a lot of people eat non-replicator food, probably the majority of the Federation. Political "Scheming" is a soft skill that is hard to quantify, it is not necessarily true that since Palpatine can manipulate the Galactic Senate that he would be way better in the Federation.

You could also change the prefix codes on ships to give yourself master override, while allowing the captain to think that his prefix code is the final authority.

I've already responded to this point, look up or use F5 and search for Troi you'll find my rebuttal.

Brian

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-12-30 09:20pm

Brian...who the fuck is going to train your uber jedi again?

Please I gotta see where this line of bullshit logic is going because without training any supposed wannabe is a giant target, nothing more.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-30 09:25pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Brian...who the fuck is going to train your uber jedi again?

Please I gotta see where this line of bullshit logic is going because without training any supposed wannabe is a giant target, nothing more.

Nobody will train him, you're right. The rebellion would have a hard time succeeding because of that. But The Force would continue creating people to balance Palpatine out, and if The Force exists in the ST verse perhaps there is a race out there that has discovered lightsabers and how to manipulate The Force. That's the best I can do.

But so far I think I've argued successfully that there will be a rebellion, and that Palpatine won't necessarily be able to do anything less than what he did in the SW verse to gain control.

Brian

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-12-30 09:26pm

1. Palpatine would have no problem taking over Starfleet, but taking over the Federation is a different matter. Once he went on his power trip and disbanded the Federation Council, worlds would no longer have a voice in the Federation and why stay in the Federation or remain sympathetic to it if you had no say in how it was run? And Palpatine would disband the Federation Council -- he did it in SW and it is in-character for him to do so in the ST verse.

Yeah...and your evidence is?

Oh wait THIRTY YEARS DOWN THE road.

It's amazing this small FACT still escapes your bullshit logic train. He didn't go trippy until he had the entire Republic practically in his hand...ONE MILLION SYSTEMS.

2. Palpatine would do General Order 24's and occupy planets with redstormies. Why would he do that if he could just mind control everybody and manipulate people behind the scenes? Because it is in-character for him to do so. As Tarkin mentioned, the Empire planned to "rule by fear", and Palpatine would rule by fear as well. Any attempt to say he would not and just covertly suck the life force out of everybody is retarded given that in-character Palpatine is a power hungry egomaniac and wouldn't tolerate dissent. We talk about Palpatine we talk about ruling by fear.

Thirty years later dumbfuck. Thank you for grasping that little fact that he institude that doctrine when he had firmly ensconed himself in power.

But hey, it would make you look like a fucktard to admit that Palpatine didn't go until he had literally a navy, and an army under his direct command and then when all is sadi and done he went, fuck the little people.

3. News flash, the Jedi were ineffective in preventing Palpatine's plans from coming to fruition. Just because there are no Jedi in the ST verse it does not mean that Palpatine would have it any easier. Have you ever considered that Palpatine just effortlessly caught all the Jedi Masters with their pants down? Or that Palpatine spent miniscule effort, or no effort at all in tricking Yoda and the entire Jedi Council? I know people don't like to think of good old Yoda being a retard and like to say that Palpatine was spending tremendous effort concealing himself, but why should that be the case? Palpatine tricked the Jedi Council totally, and unless you are able to quantify how powerful the Jedi Council was relative to Palpatine in a way that says Palpatine expended a lot of effort concealing himself, the Jedi Council or the lack of one in the ST verse is a non sequitur.

Why was he sneaky again?

Because an Order of over 10,000+ pre cognitive aware super warriors would've stamped like a bug.

Gee, anything in the Federation he has to worry about on that scale?

No, guess he won't have to worry about throwing more of his FORCE powers then he did in the Republic.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-30 09:31pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Yeah...and your evidence is?

Oh wait THIRTY YEARS DOWN THE road.

It's amazing this small FACT still escapes your bullshit logic train. He didn't go trippy until he had the entire Republic practically in his hand...ONE MILLION SYSTEMS.

Man why do you keep strawmanning me. I do not deny that Palpatine would wait until the right moment to do his thing. I am saying that once he does his thing, planets will feel incensed and rebel. I am not saying that Palpatine would disband the Federation Council right after taking it over, nor that he would disband it before he had Starfleet firmly in his grip and all the right pieces in the right places. But I do not see how you can argue that planets will not be incensed if they no longer have any say in how the Federation is run.

Thirty years later dumbfuck. Thank you for grasping that little fact that he institude that doctrine when he had firmly ensconed himself in power.

But hey, it would make you look like a fucktard to admit that Palpatine didn't go until he had literally a navy, and an army under his direct command and then when all is sadi and done he went, fuck the little people.

Again I do not deny that he would wait until all the pieces are in place.

Why was he sneaky again?

Because an Order of over 10,000+ pre cognitive aware super warriors would've stamped like a bug.

Gee, anything in the Federation he has to worry about on that scale?

No, guess he won't have to worry about throwing more of his FORCE powers then he did in the Republic.

No matter how powerful Palpatine is, he needs his stormtrooper force to be able to hold ground and to be fanatically loyal to him, and he needs to maneuver the right people into the right places. What are you trying to say with this point, that Palpatine would not wait until he had all the pieces in place to move? That contradicting what you said earlier.

Brian

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-12-30 09:32pm

brianeyci wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Brian...who the fuck is going to train your uber jedi again?

Please I gotta see where this line of bullshit logic is going because without training any supposed wannabe is a giant target, nothing more.
Nobody will train him, you're right. The rebellion would have a hard time succeeding because of that. But The Force would continue creating people to balance Palpatine out, and if The Force exists in the ST verse perhaps there is a race out there that has discovered lightsabers and how to manipulate The Force. That's the best I can do.

Great, so you have nothing and are making assumption that come straight from your ass.

I mean while we're at it...suddenly they will make this leap of discovery, because obviously you must presume the Force will balance itself. And while we're at it...in ten thousand years later a race will develop the teachings of the Jedi along with the powers that accompany it.

But so far I think I've argued successfully that there will be a rebellion, and that Palpatine won't necessarily be able to do anything less than what he did in the SW verse to gain control.

Brian

No, you've kept using circular logic by saying there will be a rebellion because he'll go pwower mad.

You've yet to show how they will do so this beyond the possiblity of a couple captains, but you know what.

30 years later, and he could very well replace the ENTIRE STARFLEET with his men, personally picked because he pretty made them from the ground up.

He only has to worry about what...at most 10,000 starfleet captains?

Yeah, small number compared to what he had to deal with the Republic.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-12-30 09:36pm

brianeyci wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Yeah...and your evidence is?

Oh wait THIRTY YEARS DOWN THE road.

It's amazing this small FACT still escapes your bullshit logic train. He didn't go trippy until he had the entire Republic practically in his hand...ONE MILLION SYSTEMS.
Man why do you keep strawmanning me. I do not deny that Palpatine would wait until the right moment to do his thing. I am saying that once he does his thing, planets will feel incensed and rebel. I am not saying that Palpatine would disband the Federation Council right after taking it over, nor that he would disband it before he had Starfleet firmly in his grip and all the right pieces in the right places. But I do not see how you can argue that planets will not be incensed if they no longer have any say in how the Federation is run.

Nice to see you and reading are still missing the train.

Thrity years later dumbfuck.

He took thrity years before proclaiming the New Order. It's amazing you are saying Rebellion yet your examples are within weeks and we have seen that Federation doctrine can change in a matter of a few years of their wants.

So far you're going "when he goes power mad there will be brave men to stand against him........because there always is."

Do you even see how bad a piece of circular logic this is?

Why was he sneaky again?

Because an Order of over 10,000+ pre cognitive aware super warriors would've stamped like a bug.

Gee, anything in the Federation he has to worry about on that scale?

No, guess he won't have to worry about throwing more of his FORCE powers then he did in the Republic.
No matter how powerful Palpatine is, he needs his stormtrooper force to be able to hold ground and to be fanatically loyal to him, and he needs to maneuver the right people into the right places. What are you trying to say with this point, that Palpatine would not wait until he had all the pieces in place to move? That contradicting what you said earlier.

Brian

Gee, he waited before...and he only has to worry about 150 planets this time. He has shown the patience to form an army from nothing.

And no...but no Jedi allows him a lot more ease to fuck with the higher level ups mind to go along with some of his more readical changes without the worry of Yoda showing up and telling him he's there to kick his ass back to Korriban.