Naval Troopers v's Federation troops

[brianeyci]

Anyway,

[quote="TNG The Quality of Life"]

Data taps some commands into the control PADD, but this
time there are no corresponding flashes from the
exocomp -- it is completely unresponsive.

DATA
It is not accepting my commands.

Farallon takes the PADD from Data.

FARALLON
Maybe there's a malfunction in
its control processor. Let me
see if I can override it...

She begins to work the PADD. and the PADD OVERLOADS
in a surge of electricity. Startled, she drops the
PADD.

DATA
Doctor --

FARALLON
(quickly)
I'm all right. The control padd
just overloaded.
(beat)
What's the matter with this thing?

[brianeyci]

Whops, pressed space bar and accidently submitted before making my point. We know that padds, phasers, consoles overload, and TOS tricorders overload, so unless there's evidence otherwise, continuity and TNG tricorders can overload.

Not that it makes a difference, they won't use overloading tricorders.

Brian

[harbringer]

I am willing to try to make this as even as it can be. I presume these people are trained by anyone you want (since you think Riker is a bad choice...) as far as overloading things go they DO overload phasers on a regular basis, I only remeber a tricorder once though (but since im not a big fan of ST <shrugs> )

I am willing to let them make impromptu grenades since they will be facing grenades. However remember that comes out of their allocation of equipment - no lugging ten tricorders round now....

[brianeyci]

So you want me to wank huh. Okay. First, we don't use humans. We use Vulcans. These aren't good Vulcans. They're bad Vulcans from DW's fanfic, who are plotting to use the stone of gol to reunify Vulcan and Romulus. So they have no compulsions against doing what Feds normally consider abhorrent.

For some reason, Spock is among them. After all, Spock is the guy who actually had a tricorder overload on him. Also, Sloan survived Bashir's mind probe. With the brains of Section 31, they should be able to ignore everything the Feds normally do, which is fuck around and not do anything smart. Also, Sisko is there. Among other things, Sisko is the only one who inexplicably figured out that Jem'Hadar weapons have a fully automatic mode, and he's also the one who used widebeam on a phaser rifle and Type-II.

But, the head honcho is Roga Danar. He's killed eighty-four men, and for some reason he's back. He figured out the phaser overload in "The Hunted", and the only guy in Trek who could possibly have the intelligence to figure out that standing still and shooting is stupid. He's also smart enough to shoot and move at the same time. That's a big improvement over what the Feds normally do.

Not that I think such a group would ever work together if brought together. But you're the one that asked. The problem is we've never seen a "Federation Commando" or Federation special forces, so when you ask for one the answer is no, and you have to wank like this to get anything remotely close to acceptable.

Brian

[Howedar]

I believe Spock had his tricorder overload. You can argue TOS, but continuity is a bitch and unless we have a reason to believe otherwise the newer tricorders can overload as well. I can see if I can find an example in VOY of a tricorder overloading if you want.

Brian

Please do, since TOS tricorders in no way bear any resemblance to TNG+ tricorders. Indeed much TOS equipment seems to operate on different principles anyway, unless you think that dustbuster Type IIs can refuel a shuttle.

[harbringer]

Brian I wasn't looking for smart arse remarks I am being fair in that you have standard red shirts with standard kit who can be trained by ANYONE you want. I am not giving you insane Vulcans since they are not star fleet are they.

I am specifically allowing overloads on the limitation that they use their kit like that they lose it. That is you overload your tricorder (BTW the last thing I would blow up) you lose it.

This is as fair as the comparison gets, sorry you dont think they can win fine. I have altered this slightly to allow the best comparison possible. In the end all we get is "thats unfair" sorry if it is, it is talk to B&B about it or paramount.

All things said at least I didn't put 30 stormtroopers and 30 redshirts as that would be VERY one sided. To be honest I figured the feds might come close in this one.

[brianeyci]

Please do, since TOS tricorders in no way bear any resemblance to TNG+ tricorders. Indeed much TOS equipment seems to operate on different principles anyway, unless you think that dustbuster Type IIs can refuel a shuttle.

Phasers can overload, consoles can overload and more importantly a datapad can overload. The newer tricorders (ST:FC+) have an LCD screen similar to a datapad. Granted, that doesn't tell us anything about the yield, but at least we know that a tricorder is likely to overload, unless you think that SF discontinued its practise of using dangerous plasma screens on their tricorders despite continuing to use them on their consoles.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Brian I wasn't looking for smart arse remarks I am being fair in that you have standard red shirts with standard kit who can be trained by ANYONE you want. I am not giving you insane Vulcans since they are not star fleet are they.

From Kirk's era, Vulcans manned a connie. Plus, Riker had to contact the Vulcan defense ministry to call off their attack on Picard's ship. Although the Vulcans have a separate defense force, its hard to believe that it would be completely independent from SF, and if the Federation requested it they could get Vulcans.

I wasn't being smart arse, I was being semi-serious, trying to answer your question. Roga Danar was the guy who overloaded the phaser, and unless him (or someone like him, I don't know who else overloaded the phaser) trained the redshirts, they wouldn't figure out the tactic of overloading phasers and chucking them like grenades. Remember, Worf said "ingenius", which means that overloading a phaser is not standard SF training. You would need someone out of SF training them. Plus, Sisko is the only one I can think of right now who used widebeam on a Type-II in DS9 to blow through a rock face, and he figured out automatic on a Jem'Hadar rifle despite the Jemmies never figuring out themselves how to shoot on full auto. Plus Sisko fired a Type-III on widebeam. What's forgotten a lot I noticed is that protagonists have to act "in-character", and for SF to start chucking phasers like grenades is out-of-character, meaning if you want an in-universe answer you'll need someone out of SF who uses overloaded phasers on a consistent basis. Roga Danar is the only guy I can think of.

If you want, there was a discussion a while back about "Federation Marines". It was more a hypothetical scenario of how to improve SF ground combat without wanking or going out of character. I was in the middle of writing a fanfic, but frankly it never got anywhere beyond the first few posts and I realized that to do it without being an idiot I would have to do research, and I don't have time for research right now.

Type-II's should be awesome supression weapons. Think about it -- when turning a corner, stick your hand out and fire widebeam and knock everybody out. But the Feds never do this. They never move when they shoot. In all the firefights I've seen, they sit and hide behind a crate or a rock. The transporter should be a tactical advantage in most cases when they're not "jammed", and even if they are jammed SF should figure a way out to use those transporter poles to boost the transporter signal. Jamming usually comes from tricorders IIRC, and Klingons, Romulans and such rarely carry their own tricorders anyway, so the "transporter flanking" tactic should be used at least a few times in ST if SF was smart. For example in "Way of the Warrior", Klingons were able to use transporters to board so SF could have had their own redshirts to transport right beside/behind Klingons and shoot/stab them or something. It is never used. Not to mention no body armor, which would be extremely useful against all the NDF using opponents of the AQ. The Feds could use their weapons better and actually have better combined arms than the naval troopers in this vs, but they don't and it would be out-of-character for them to suddenly... uh become smart.

Brian

[harbringer]

Brian you explicitly mentioned Vulcans on a Jihad/Crusade. Such persons may have been star fleet but could not possibly be now. You want SF vulcans sure you can have them. They still only get slightly modified standard training. After all you are not going up against commando's here and only elite troops if you go the Death Star troopers.

You keep mentioning widebeam but I have yet to see a single figure to give range for this. Assuming there isn't one what has been the maximum distance affected ?. What is the maimum range a phaser overload is effective to? can you give any numbers at all?.

[brianeyci]

You keep mentioning widebeam but I have yet to see a single figure to give range for this. Assuming there isn't one what has been the maximum distance affected ?. What is the maimum range a phaser overload is effective to? can you give any numbers at all?.

Sure I can. You're lucky I just uploaded a pic from phasers.net up to my webspace.



Note how the widebeam does not lose intensity. As well, "beam" Type-II's and Type-III's don't lose intensity over range IIRC.

If you want low-end (Thanks GR for clearing this up, hope I'm using the terms properly now) range of a widebeam, it would be as big as the largest room that widebeam was fired in. The bridge of Voyager, or that room in the above picture. Which would be 10 meters. The low-end range of a Type-II phaser would be slightly longer, lets say 15-20 meters (REF Picard and Riker shooting the SF Admiral from down a corridor.) High-end range, well since the widebeam/phaser shot doesn't lose intensity over distance, as long as the phaser's power pack lasts, although perhaps there is a set range in the phaser which doesn't let the phaser expend all its energy in one shot.

If you want to use low-ends, then use the low-end of a blaster pistol/blaster rifle, which would be the maximum that we've seen them fire on screen. If you want to use high-ends, then the maximum of a blaster rifle in whatever EU book you can conjure up -- SW RPG indicates how many range increments before you start losing accuracy?

I don't see how you can make the range argument given that we don't know that there is a limit on widebeam/phaser shot, and from Occam's Razor since the beam does not lose intensity over distance theoretically range could last as long as the phaser's power pack. If the Feds were being outranged by the Imps, they would simply tinker with their phasers as we've seen them do a lot to fire at a greater maximum range or expend more energy per shot. That's the best I can do with canon range, and probably the best you can do with canon range too.

Also the range argument is why it is so stupid using the isomagnetic distingrator.

The fact that Worf switched to a cumbersome shoulder fired weapon is yet another indicator that phasers are not meant for long-range use. This particular weapon appears to have some sort of eyepiece, and fairly accurate targeting, to hit So'na troops several hundred metres away. The obvious question is: "why aren't phasers any good at that range?" The beam doesn't dissipate, but we can surmise that its inherent accuracy is too low to be useful at such long range.

What isn't supposed is that the Feds are stupid to use the isomagnetic destingrator, rather than firing with a Type-II or a Type-III, and moving the beam to hit someone to correct for their inaccuracy. Given that we've never seen the Feds use phasers this way except at incredibly short ranges (REF when Yar and Data fire the Type-II's and move their beam, IIRC this is the ONLY time they use the obvious advantage of a continuous beam weapon), its not too hard to surmise that they wouldn't figure out to use phasers this way long range. Stupidity is the last resort argument, but I don't see how the technological limitation argument is any more valid than the stupidity argument given the stupid tactics we've seen Fed ground troops employ.

So, in the end, it all comes down to training anyway. Phasers could be used as accurate weapons, widebeam could be used for supression, but SF never ever has used them this way so supposing that they would act out-of-character is invalid. Which comes down to my argument of why you need... lets say someone from HAB from this board to knock some sense into the Feds .

Brian

[brianeyci]

If you want maximum range of a phaser overload, Worf seals off the entire deck, so however long that is. That's ridiculous though. If you want minimum range of a phaser overload, as close as Worf is to the overloading phaser, at least several meters. Note that explosives exist in the ST universe that are as small as an earring, and have a 20 m kill radius, so phasers probably have a smaller killzone than that.

Brian

[harbringer]

Ok assuming that wide beam is a discreate function and it may not have the same range 10m is the low end yes. Otherwise we could argue overall range. Clone troopers were using their blasters at some kilometers distance and scoring "kills".

Q: Is wide beam a seperate function if not (ie is just an adjustment not a change of mode...) then maximum range is maybe 25m or so for a hand phaser... maybe ten times that for the rifle.... I would have to get figures for those but they seem resonable. After all they are not the most intuitive weapons.

[brianeyci]

Ok assuming that wide beam is a discreate function and it may not have the same range 10m is the low end yes. Otherwise we could argue overall range. Clone troopers were using their blasters at some kilometers distance and scoring "kills".

You are assuming that phasers have some sort of upper limit, which there is no evidence for other than conjecture eg "They have isomagnetic destingrator therefore phasers can't fire that far" rather than SF stupidity and Worf stupidity, which is just as valid an argument

Q: Is wide beam a seperate function if not (ie is just an adjustment not a change of mode...) then maximum range is maybe 25m or so for a hand phaser... maybe ten times that for the rifle.... I would have to get figures for those but they seem resonable. After all they are not the most intuitive weapons.

It doesn't matter what is reasonable, or what is intuitive. The beam doesn't lose intensity over range, so by Occam's Razor the beam can fire as long as it wants as long as the power pack lasts. Why don't the Feds use phasers this way? Well why don't the Feds use the obvious tactic of correcting for their aim with a beam more often? Why don't the Feds use widebeam as supressing fire more often? Stupidity may be the last resort, but it flourishes in SF and there's no reason to suppose that the technological limitation argument is any more valid given we have no evidence for it other than conjecture.

Brian

[harbringer]

"intuitive" was more or less euphemistic, The whole design of a phaser is aimed at making you a bad shot (excuse the pun). The shape of it is as poorly designed as possible and shows no encouragment of marksmanship.

Blasters would be instantly recognised by even a musketman for what it is. It is inherently a more "orthodox" design, now wether a culture 250000 or so years old in a galaxy far away would find it so im not sure but for the purpose of the debate they do (ie. SW).

It is entirely possible that a phaser could be limited by factors of design that have nothing to do with the beam. A example would be the early development of automatic weapons and the vast increase in accuracy attributed to improvements in design (design of the stock had a lot to do with this).

As such I propose that until further evidence can be provided that the range of a phaser is the maximum seen on the show for each type..

[Howedar]

Please do, since TOS tricorders in no way bear any resemblance to TNG+ tricorders. Indeed much TOS equipment seems to operate on different principles anyway, unless you think that dustbuster Type IIs can refuel a shuttle.

Phasers can overload, consoles can overload and more importantly a datapad can overload. The newer tricorders (ST:FC+) have an LCD screen similar to a datapad. Granted, that doesn't tell us anything about the yield, but at least we know that a tricorder is likely to overload, unless you think that SF discontinued its practise of using dangerous plasma screens on their tricorders despite continuing to use them on their consoles.

Brian

In other words, you have zero evidence that a tricorder overload (if even possible) will be anything other than tactically useless.

[wautd]

This may have been asked before but if the a phaser on whide beam setting is so uber, than why don't they use it most of the time?

[brianeyci]

This may have been asked before but if the a phaser on whide beam setting is so uber, than why don't they use it most of the time?

Because they're stupid. They don't even use the obvious advantage of a continuous beam weapon very often, correcting for your aim by moving the beam. Or the tactical advantage of transporters. Or move and shoot.

Brian

[wautd]

This may have been asked before but if the a phaser on whide beam setting is so uber, than why don't they use it most of the time?

Because they're stupid. They don't even use the obvious advantage of a continuous beam weapon very often, correcting for your aim by moving the beam. Or the tactical advantage of transporters. Or move and shoot.

Brian

well that pretty much concludes to winner of this matchup than

[Stark]

Christ, Brian.

Brian, champion of the whiny 'you can't just say they're stupid, I've got this whacked out theory thats ... better' tactic, now claims that Feddies ARE just stupid, and that there couldn't POSSIBLY be a good reason why they don't do these things that he doesn't know about. Its like there's the Brian-Walperwhore and the Brian-Apologist. Its great.

[brianeyci]

Christ, Brian.

Brian, champion of the whiny 'you can't just say they're stupid, I've got this whacked out theory thats ... better' tactic, now claims that Feddies ARE just stupid,

It depends on the situation. There is absolutely no reason why someone using a continuous beam weapon would not move the beam to correct for his aim, this is the simplest tactic. Stupidity is the last resort, but in this case I don't see any possible way around it so I accept it.

and that there couldn't POSSIBLY be a good reason why they don't do these things that he doesn't know about.

Have you ever fired a continuous beam weapon and tried correcting for its aim? I think not. Its an obvious thing to do though.

Its like there's the Brian-Walperwhore and the Brian-Apologist. Its great.

Nitpick. Brian-Walperwhore only exists sometimes, in the end reason wins out (The Vorlons/Shadows won against the Borg). Also Brian-apologist was only a suggested archetype for the Riker thread, I never became Brian-apologist because I realized how stupid it was .

Brian

[wautd]

Have you ever fired a continuous beam weapon and tried correcting for its aim? I think not.

I have. Its called a laserpen. Granted, no the most deadly weapon except it hurts the eyes

[harbringer]

Brian ever heard of the term colateral damage SF take it VERY seriously therefore if the beam has "unlimited" range or even if it doesn't they probably only want to hit their target.

You might say its only a rock but who knows what consequences derive from blasting it?. Were the redshirts imperials or even a star wars power they wouldn't care so much (only the Naboo and the Jedi even start to care.....).

There are good reasons for everything if you look hard enough, greek style philosophy.

[Lord Poe]

Brian, Spock's tricorder overloading was against his will, and not something he made it do. The Gorns backtracked the tricorder's signal in "The Arena" and turned it into a bomb. The PADD in "Quality of Life" was similarly affected by outside forces (the Exocomps).

Imagine what happens to all those tricorder, or PADD- carrying redshirts if the NT get an R2 unit to do the same thing?

[Lord Poe]

As for overloaded phasers, in TOS, there seems to be different strengths. In "Spock's Brain", an overloaded phaser went off (again by outside forces, IIRC) with the equivalent visual power of a landmine. However in "The Conscience of the King" Kirk stated that if the phaser blew up it would have taken out "several decks"

In TNG's "The Hunted", Roga Danar set a phaser to overload in a Jeffries tube, and it did very little damage.

[brianeyci]

Imagine what happens to all those tricorder, or PADD- carrying redshirts if the NT get an R2 unit to do the same thing?

Feds are fucked, that's what happens. Especially if they can figure a way to disable phasers. Uh, more fucked than they already are, since they're fucked anyway lol.

The objection is that we've never seen an R2 unit do this, although it is possible the Imps wouldn't think at first that SF would have such a weakness in their technology and probably wouldn't try it. Plus the op doesn't mention an R2 unit, only naval troops .

Brian