phasers and lightsabers

[brianeyci]

This means to actually use math to back up your fucking statements.

You want math? From the screenshot, Tuvok shoots about five people (more, but only five are visible in that shot and I don't remember how many people are usually on the VOY bridge exactly). So widebeam is equivalent at least to five phaser shots at once. Also, the bridge of VOY is a reasonable limit for widebeam range. So phasers would be effective up to 10 m (estimate from the picture, this is overly generous). Also, continuous beam can last at least a minute, since this is how long Geordi and Data talk while testing the Type-III (IIRC, its been a long time since I've seen this episode).

As well, from the picture of widebeams that I've posted (especially the picture with the phaser rifles on widebeam) since we know Sisko is 6' 1", widebeam has at least 6' 1" vertical height. We also know that widebeam is conical in shape, so an upper limit is maybe a 3' 1" diameter circle that the Jedi has to deflect with his lightsaber.

Good enough?

Brian

[brianeyci]

Whops, meant to say radius.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Too bad? Why is it too bad? I gave you an opportunity to get out of this by discussing something other than 'skill' (I have once again higlighted the appropriate text), and you have chosen to ignore it. Oh well, guess then the Jedi stands absolutely still while the redshit in question hits everything else in the room but him. Kinda funny. It is a rather simple and elegant solution asswipe. Thankyou for giving it to me.

I have discussed things other than skill. If you want numbers, fine. Look at my response to GR.

Too bad? Yes I suppose it is, that you cannot differentiate between beam weapons and kinetic energy weapons. I supose you will have a little difficulty in life, but if you stay away from things like - oh I don't know - technology. You should be fine. And I must conceed to you my little cocknob; you are right, you have been consistent ... consistently wrong that is. Details, details.

Phasers aren't pure energy weapons, they shoot out nadions. And this does not change the fact that widebeam would be able to down a Jedi/Sith given that Jedi/Sith have been downed by concentrated blaster fire.

So. This is about 'skill' remember. You choose to arbitrarily limit the skill of the Jedi, I chose to arbitrarily limit the skill of the redshirt. I hardly see how calling me 'rude names' you little cock stain, is going to change that.

I don't dispute that redshirts would not be able to kill Vader at his best, or Palpatine. My skill argument was not a limitation on Jedi skill, rather a response that not all Jedis are the same and it is hardly fair to judge Jedis as a whole based on Vader. I don't see how that is a bad argument. If you want numbers, see my last reply to GR.

Still on with the 'skill' tangent are we? Oh deary me ... Just a question for you, wonderless boy, when I say 'quantify' something 'other than skill', what exactly did you think I meant?

Fine, you win I should have quantified rather than expecting the obvious. See my response to GR.

Why? The continous beam shot is ... well I don't quite know how to put this ... but *continuous*! The Jedi has all the time in the world to adjust his rebound aim, unlike with SW blasters where he/she has a fraction of the second. Moron.

Fine, I'll withdraw the continuous beam argument.

And why shouldn't the Jedi have 'just as easy time with a widebeam or continuous shot'? Are you ever going to quantify that statement with something other than skill? Like, ever? No really I want to know. Please tell me, please!

Fine, you want quantification of the obvious, see my reply to GR. Respond to that if you want too. Blaster bolts are certainly smaller than the 4' radius of a phaser on widebeam.

Oh for fucks sake! I ask you for once, once to quantify something with hard, cold, unrefuteable numbers and you don't. You just repeat the same arguement again, as if this means anything to anyone anywhere in the world! Congratulations. You are a troll!

See my reply to GR. Hard, cold, unrefutable numbers that a phaser on widebeam would be more effective than a blaster bolt. Fine, I'll concede that its impossible to quantify the continuous beam argument, so I'll withdrew it. Widebeam though would still be effective on unarmored Jedi, unless you argue that a Jedi can deflect a 6' 1" diameter blaster bolt.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Also, if you want to argue that absence of proof does not mean proof of absence, and perhaps Jedi can deflect blaster bolts from large vehicles like AT-ST/AT-AT's and that we've just not seen it,

Q: Can a Jedi Deflect (attack) the bolt from a speeder bike? How about an AT-ST? An AT-AT? A starfighter? The turbolaser from a Star Destroyer? The blast from the Death Star? Just what is the upper limit for a Jedi's Deflect ability?

A: I think we might have been more clear about the limitations of deflection in the original core rulebook, but it's accepted that a Jedi cannot use Deflect against anything larger than personal weapons -- so starships and battle stations are out of the question. Still, we saw Qui-Gon Jinn use Deflect (defense) and Deflect (attack) against the STAPs in The Phantom Menace, so clearly vehicle weapons can be Deflected, as well.

So, unless something else contradicts this (IIRC we never see Luke deflecting a vehicle blaster bolt for example), this is canon. So the fattest blaster bolt that a Jedi can deflect is the fattest blaster bolt seen on screen as a "personal weapon". Needless to say, a phaser widebeam with a 4' radius is wider than this.

So, it all comes down to whether Jedi would be able to resist the stun setting on a phaser. Since you can't fucking quantify a Jedi's resistance to stun, widebeam taking down a Jedi/Sith hypothesis stands.

Brian

[Batman]

We saw Luke deflect Speeder Bike bolts in RotJ, so that one goes right out the window.
Oh, a phaser on widebeam doen't have a radius but a width. Because that wide beam is a completely planar effect.

[Gunhead]

Well the speeder bike blaster was IMO a personal level weapon, a SW equivalent to medium MG or GPMG.

-Gunhead

[brianeyci]

We saw Luke deflect Speeder Bike bolts in RotJ, so that one goes right out the window.

No. Just that speeder bolts are the maximum size that a Jedi can deflect. How big were these speeder bolts? About the size of regular blaster bolts I imagine? Are you going to quantify the size of a speeder blaster bolt?

Oh, a phaser on widebeam doen't have a radius but a width. Because that wide beam is a completely planar effect.

Yes, but we've also seen phaser beams fire conically. Reference Sisko burning a hole through rock. That planar effect in that screenshot was because Sisko/Kira were looking for a changeling I believe (I don't know where that screenshot comes from, but I think it comes from the episode when they modified their phasers for searching for a changeling on the Defiant). In general, widebeam Type-II wouldn't fire like that unless specifically modified, and would fire like Sisko's Type-II did against the rock wall. If you want to nitpick, then fine, a minimum conical radius for a Type-II would be the size of Sisko's head, or three inch diameter (guess based on my own head, I doubt Avery Brooks' head is much bigger or smaller since I'm the same height as he is). Given that the "cone" itself gets wider with distance, if someone was not standing a few feet in front of a rock face like our Sisko, the widebeam would probably become far larger.

Not that it matters. Jedi haven't deflected a planar 6' 1" blaster bolt anyway.

Brian

[Lord Revan]

We saw Luke deflect Speeder Bike bolts in RotJ, so that one goes right out the window.
Oh, a phaser on widebeam doen't have a radius but a width. Because that wide beam is a completely planar effect.

DS9 widebeam was a cone. But this ain't so relevant as you don't have to a jedi to resist phaser stun (the parasite hosts in that TNG episode (can't remember the name) and augments in ENT for example (both are more or less humans). Also in KOTOR jedi robes were ultra light armor and Count Dooku wears an blaster (and lightsaber) resistant cape.

[brianeyci]

DS9 widebeam was a cone. But this ain't so relevant as you don't have to a jedi to resist phaser stun (the parasite hosts in that TNG episode (can't remember the name) and augments in ENT for example (both are more or less humans).

Yes, but I believe in both cases it was not a widebeam stun, but rather a single shot stun. Widebeam stuns have never failed to work IIRC.

Also in KOTOR jedi robes were ultra light armor and Count Dooku wears an blaster (and lightsaber) resistant cape.

Sure, I don't dispute that Jedi with armor or special robes would be able to resist phaser widebeam stun. But without armor, widebeam stun should work. Also the KOTOR thing was a game mechanic, giving +4 deflection bonus does not necessarily mean that Jedi robes are somehow magically enchanted. Nor do the robes being classified as "light armor". And before you say that this argument renders the quote I gave above invalid, think about what your quote implies. Mine is a qualitative statement about blaster bolts (that above a certain size Jedi can't deflect), yours is a quantative statement (Jedi robes give +4 deflection bonus just like normal armor so they are armor), never trust game mechanics on quantative statements, the robes could simply give your character a "confidence" boost so he dodges blaster bolts more often or something.

Brian

[Lord Revan]

. But this ain't so relevant as you don't have to a jedi to resist phaser stun (the parasite hosts in that TNG episode (can't remember the name) and augments in ENT for example (both are more or less humans). Also in KOTOR jedi robes were ultra light armor and Count Dooku wears an blaster (and lightsaber) resistant cape.

the TNG episodes name was "Conspiracy" and the alien parasites made their hosts immune to phaser stun (kill did work though) by pumping them full of adrenaline (the flight or fight hormone (nothing unnatural)).

[Batman]

DS9 widebeam was a cone. But this ain't so relevant as you don't have to a jedi to resist phaser stun (the parasite hosts in that TNG episode (can't remember the name) and augments in ENT for example (both are more or less humans).

Yes, but I believe in both cases it was not a widebeam stun, but rather a single shot stun. Widebeam stuns have never failed to work IIRC.

You're right. It worked the one time it was ever used.
Why should we assume widebeam stun works any different from the standard setting?

[Trekdestroyer]

Darkstar thought and probably still thinks that a widebeam phaser could bring down a jedi. That is obviously incorrecet considering that by the time the guy pulls the trigger/presses the button, the guy will be sliced into sushi.

[brianeyci]

Why should we assume widebeam stun works any different from the standard setting?

Because widebeam uses far more energy than a single shot from a phaser rifle. Given that widebeam can knock out multiple opponents at once, widebeam has to have more power requirements than a normal shot. A hand phaser has 4.7 megajoule capacity in total (REF : Return to Grace), so if we use conjecture and say that a phaser can emit four or five widebeam shots before being emptied (supported by the Feds not using widebeam more often), this would be way more than the 0.05 megajoule shot of a single shot phaser rifle (REF : The Mind's Eye). In fact, a widebeam shot would then require an order of magnitude more energy than a widebeam shot. Data also mentions that energy usage is "within normal parameters" so we know that 0.05 megajoules is the normal energy usage by a Type-III. Lets say that a widebeam shot can target five enemies minimum based on that screenshot, so a widebeam shot already uses five times more energy than a normal shot if you want to use the minimum.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Darkstar thought and probably still thinks that a widebeam phaser could bring down a jedi.

Darkstar is a load of shit. He can't make the same argument as me with widebeam, because IIRC he doesn't accept NDF theory, so he can't make the argument that a widebeam shot would be able to take out a SW human just as easily as a ST human. Also it doesn't change the fact that the Empire would crush SF and Vader/Palpatine would never get into close range combat with a lowly redshirt.

That is obviously incorrecet considering that by the time the guy pulls the trigger/presses the button, the guy will be sliced into sushi.

That's not necessarily a given though. The Jedi do not use their incredible speed to their advantage all the time. Reference the arena in SW:ATOC. Also the argument that force users generate invisible "force fields" to restrict a Jedi works with the duel between Dooku and Obi-Wan, but what about droids, who don't have the force? In the end, with improved reflexes and precognition, a Jedi/Sith would be able to take out many many redshirts, but just like many blaster bolts can take down a Jedi/Sith, eventually there will be more volume of fire than he can handle. A 6' 1" diameter shot, or if you want to be nitpicky a 6" diameter shot, is something Jedi/Sith have never deflected, and from canon they can't.

Brian

[Lord Revan]

DS9 widebeam was a cone. But this ain't so relevant as you don't have to a jedi to resist phaser stun (the parasite hosts in that TNG episode (can't remember the name) and augments in ENT for example (both are more or less humans).

Yes, but I believe in both cases it was not a widebeam stun, but rather a single shot stun. Widebeam stuns have never failed to work IIRC.

for all we know the only difference between a wide shot and regural shot is the beam. You must prove that widebeam are any more different.

Darkstar thought and probably still thinks that a widebeam phaser could bring down a jedi. That is obviously incorrecet considering that by the time the guy pulls the trigger/presses the button, the guy will be sliced into sushi.

don't jedi wank (or least wank to female jedi). We have seen a mandalorian warrio shoot (and once even kill) several jedi before they were in melee range, so it not that a starfleet red/goldshirt could fire at a jedi (widebeam or regular) if they realise that the jedi is a threat

[brianeyci]

Yes, but I believe in both cases it was not a widebeam stun, but rather a single shot stun. Widebeam stuns have never failed to work IIRC.

for all we know the only difference between a wide shot and regural shot is the beam. You must prove that widebeam are any more different.[/quote]

I just did see my above post, widebeam is probably an order of magnitude more powerful than a standard phaser shot for the Feds sparse use of widebeam to make sense. If you want to argue Fed stupidity, then fine, widebeam is at least five times more energy consuming than a normal shot.

Brian

[Batman]

Not only is the energy usage completely irrelevant-what you need is the energy delivered, as the vast majority of a widebeam does quite simply NOT hit the target-, but as the stun effect, just as phaser function in general, is NOT a DET effect that matters why again?

[brianeyci]

Not only is the energy usage completely irrelevant-what you need is the energy delivered, as the vast majority of a widebeam does quite simply NOT hit the target-, but as the stun effect, just as phaser function in general, is NOT a DET effect that matters why again?

The "not DET effect" argument again. Phasers do emit energy, however small. A planar widebeam of 6' 1" would deliver all of its energy on target, and a conical widebeam would as well. If a phaser uses 0.05 MJ of energy on single shot, and a phaser uses 1 MJ of energy on widebeam shot (based on assumption that phasers drain their energy in five widebeam shots), we can reasonably assume that a phaser on widebeam would deliver more NDF punch to a target, meaning the argument that widebeam and normal shot is the same is void. I've already shown one difference, ammunition consumption, if widebeam consumes more ammunition it logically means that widebeam is more powerful.

Brian

[Lord Revan]

I just did see my above post, widebeam is probably an order of magnitude more powerful than a standard phaser shot for the Feds sparse use of widebeam to make sense. If you want to argue Fed stupidity, then fine, widebeam is at least five times more energy consuming than a normal shot.

Brian

as Batman said the energy per target can't be that much higher as it'still just a stun.

[brianeyci]

as Batman said the energy per target can't be that much higher as it'still just a stun.

At least five times higher based on that screenshot. I can pull another example with Voyager, with Seska threatening to widebeam everybody in the cafeteria. There were around ten people there, so at least ten times more powerful. Plus widebeam using an order of magnitude more energy than a normal shot makes sense given the Feds sparse use of widebeam -- why use a shot that will take up 1/5th of your ammunition when you can use a shot that can take up 1/94th of your ammunition? (Of course there are certain situations when widebeam would have been useful, but that's besides the point).

Brian

[brianeyci]

Plus Batman, NDF/DET is irrelevant. Tell me how the following does not make sense :

If a phaser uses more ammunition than usual, then there will be more NDF particles generated.

Brian

[Batman]

Not only is the energy usage completely irrelevant-what you need is the energy delivered, as the vast majority of a widebeam does quite simply NOT hit the target-, but as the stun effect, just as phaser function in general, is NOT a DET effect that matters why again?

The "not DET effect" argument again. Phasers do emit energy, however small. A planar widebeam of 6' 1" would deliver all of its energy on target, and a conical widebeam would as well.

No it would not, as the vast majority of the beam does not hit the target. The conical widebeam might depending on the diameter of the cone, the planar widebeam -IIRC the only of the two to show area stun effects- does canonically not.

If a phaser uses 0.05 MJ of energy on single shot, and a phaser uses 1 MJ of energy on widebeam shot (based on assumption that phasers drain their energy in five widebeam shots), we can reasonably assume that a phaser on widebeam would deliver more NDF punch to a target,

Err-no. As the area the phaser is affecting is MUCH larger the 'NDF punch' delivered to a given target within it may easily be lower than for a standard stun.

meaning the argument that widebeam and normal shot is the same is void.

The only thing void here is your reasoning.

I've already shown one difference, ammunition consumption, if widebeam consumes more ammunition it logically means that widebeam is more powerful.

Indeed, and affects a much larger area. Unless you can show that the energy consumption of widebeam is higher by a larger margin than the affected area is (assuming your 1MJ figure, that would require a factor of 20, giving a affected area of a squre foot or less), even if we assume that more energy delivered=higher effect (which is by no means a given for non-DET effects) widebeam is easily LESS effective than a standard beam.

[Lord Revan]

as Batman said the energy per target can't be that much higher as it'still just a stun.

At least five times higher based on that screenshot. I can pull another example with Voyager, with Seska threatening to widebeam everybody in the cafeteria. There were around ten people there, so at least ten times more powerful. Plus widebeam using an order of magnitude more energy than a normal shot makes sense given the Feds sparse use of widebeam -- why use a shot that will take up 1/5th of your ammunition when you can use a shot that can take up 1/94th of your ammunition? (Of course there are certain situations when widebeam would have been useful, but that's besides the point).

Brian

geometry my friend, unless you're close to your target a widebeam becomes much weaker then regular in the same range(so wide beam isn't that effective at longer ranges (min stun will work most target, so you use max stun (same power as regular) widebeam and still stun everybody in the room), also stunt blasts from phaser can be harmfull, so a too powerfull stunt shot can cause too much harm (or kill) the target (something starfleet don't want to do (very bad PR)).

[brianeyci]

Indeed, and affects a much larger area. Unless you can show that the energy consumption of widebeam is higher by a larger margin than the affected area is (assuming your 1MJ figure, that would require a factor of 20, giving a affected area of a squre foot or less)

Here is the crux of the problem. Actually using the upper limit of phaser range uses the lower limit of NDF particles delivered on target. If I use the lower limit of phaser widebeam range, then I use the upper limit of NDF particles delivered on target. The same argument about DET can be made that the stun resistance of those who were hit by single shot stun would have been knocked out with 0.0001 J more energy, how do we know that a few more NDF particles wouldn't have made a difference?

Also there is something that hasn't been addressed yet. Quantify your statements that because a Jedi can resist normal stun, he can resist NDF stun. In fact, I gave a canon quote earlier that shows that Jedi can be knocked out by stun settings in SW.

even if we assume that more energy delivered=higher effect (which is by no means a given for non-DET effects)

Of course it is not given. But you cannot deny that there is already a difference in ammunition consumption. Thus, "resisting stun on a single shot means they can resist stun on widebeam" is false because there is already a difference in NDF particles outputted. You are the one making the claim, so give evidence and quantification for the generalization that someone that resists one stun can resist all stuns, or a single shot stun can resist a widebeam stun. I've already shown that widebeam may consume an order of magnitude more energy based on conjecture, but you yourself have shown no figures for stun resistance.

widebeam is easily LESS effective than a standard beam.

Single shot is more efficient, not necessarily more effective in this case. Talking about effectiveness against a Jedi, widebeam would be the only recourse unless a Jedi was swarmed by a hundred continuous beam shots.

Brian

[Batman]

Brian, what particular part of 'the vast majority of a widebeam never hits the target in the first place' is beyond you?