Xindi Sphere > Death Star

[Lord Revan]

Well. There's always the hope that the DS's loss to power and shields is permanent, and that they can't power the hangar doors to open to let out the TIE's .

Brian

the only problem would as far as we know the DS doesn't have hangar doors (I know ISD have, but still) and if it doesn't have door a power loss would only shut down the atmosferic shields (which is no problem for TIE pilot as have sealded suit anyway).

[Batman]

AQ shields, which are apparently vulnerable against NDF effects.

Borg shields are vulnerable to Fed phasers as well, and races all over the galaxy use phasers. Apparently there is a technology pinnacle where phasers become the first choice. The usual comment is that the Fed are stupid for not using DET weapons, but I don't see why it has to be stupidity rather than a technological peak where one reaches. 29th Century Feds appear to still use phasers.

And that means what, exactly?

Because that makes it the next best thing to impossible to determine how they affect any target they have not been canoninally seen fired on?

Maybe. Or maybe if you see chain-reaction weapons fire enough, you can find out how it works, like phasers. Chain-reaction doesn't have to be all that bad, it makes for cool special effects

Because we're lucky in that there's enough phaser examples around, and their performance is consistant enough, for us to form a working theory. If the mechanism was known, we wouldn't have to. Furthermore, what about weaons we don't have a shitload of working examples of?
From a debating POV, a defined mechanism is easier to work with.

Try 1-10TW. 30-40PW is against AQ shields, which are vulnerable to NDF effects. No reason to assume Wars shields are, too. Since it's actual effects seem to be sub-kiloton...

DW accepts the 30k-40k TW figure as probable against Imperial shields as well.

He also accepted the 64 MT torpedo figure, and almost certainly for the same reason- because it doesn't matter and he was being generous to Trek.. As phasers are canonically NOT equally effective against all shields, there's no reason to assume they will be against Wars ones. Not that they matter in this silly scenario.

[Batman]

Engines to ten percent. Ram the fucker. DS wins.

What engines? Remember, you've got no power

[SirNitram]

Engines to ten percent. Ram the fucker. DS wins.

What engines? Remember, you've got no power

Vent atmosphere. Accelerate. Ram the fucker.

Being between hundreds of thousands and millions of times bigger and massively more dense than the opposition allows for unorthodox methods of obliterating everything in your path.

[Wild Karrde]

What engines? Remember, you've got no power

the Death Star has temporarily lost the power to fire weapons and power it's shields...

No mention of lost engine power.

[brianeyci]

And that means what, exactly?

That means your point that phasers are only effective against only AQ shields is wrong.

Because we're lucky in that there's enough phaser examples around, and their performance is consistant enough, for us to form a working theory. If the mechanism was known, we wouldn't have to. Furthermore, what about weaons we don't have a shitload of working examples of? From a debating POV, a defined mechanism is easier to work with.

Fine, you have more experience than me with this anyway.

He also accepted the 64 MT torpedo figure, and almost certainly for the same reason- because it doesn't matter and he was being generous to Trek.. As phasers are canonically NOT equally effective against all shields, there's no reason to assume they will be against Wars ones. Not that they matter in this silly scenario.

DW wouldn't accept the 30k-40k TW figure "just to be nice". I don't even have an accurate torpedo yield figure, do you? 64 MT is obviously false, as is the 32 MT. Riker's comment could be wrong, so 0.1 MT doesn't cut it. 0.625 KT is not a good figure to use because it involved interaction between shields, and you can play with the numbers to get whatever figure you want as Silence and I demonstrated in another thread. ST:V is not a good number to use because it is TOS and they might have turned down the yield because of Capt. Kirk's proximity to the blast.

What are we left with? Nothing. If you know a good hard yield for photon torpedoes, I would like to know. 32 MT torpedo is obviously based on conjecture that photon torpedoes are useful, and more powerful than phasres or obviously they would not be used at all. That is what DW uses, not this generous bullshit.

One thing I want to see is somebody do the calcs to the first Borg cube incident in TNG. We know Borg cube is 97% - 98% empty space, take iron, and scale the holes and figure out the yield of phasers/photons from that. This would be a nice, hard, indisputable figure.

Brian

[SirNitram]

Brian, as much as you tout that 'It wouldn't be done to be nice' and continue to bleat onwards, you're really very annoying on this subject. It's been repeatedly stated by Mike himself that that page is horribly out of date, and falling back to 'Mike wouldn't just be nice..' is an Appeal To Authority fallacy anyway.

[brianeyci]

Brian, as much as you tout that 'It wouldn't be done to be nice' and continue to bleat onwards, you're really very annoying on this subject. It's been repeatedly stated by Mike himself that that page is horribly out of date, and falling back to 'Mike wouldn't just be nice..' is an Appeal To Authority fallacy anyway.

I haven't been around long enough to see that. Know how many posts you need to sift through to get to the meat? Finding MoS' analysis of Nemesis torpedoes took forever.

Out of curiousity, what are up-to-date figures for phasers and photon torpedoes? Is nobody really keeping track anymore?

Brian

[Batman]

And that means what, exactly?

That means your point that phasers are only effective against only AQ shields is wrong.

No it doesn't. It simply means that Trek races don't have the means to get phaser firepower out of DET weapons. If 40PW is beyond your power generation capabilities using a weapon which will at least sometimes nets you 40PW worth of results is damn good sense. Doesn't say beans about their effect on shields they never encountered.

He also accepted the 64 MT torpedo figure, and almost certainly for the same reason- because it doesn't matter and he was being generous to Trek.. As phasers are canonically NOT equally effective against all shields, there's no reason to assume they will be against Wars ones. Not that they matter in this silly scenario.

DW wouldn't accept the 30k-40k TW figure "just to be nice".

really. He seems to have done it with the 64MT figure...

I don't even have an accurate torpedo yield figure, do you? 64 MT is obviously false, as is the 32 MT.

Because that is hopelessly beyond observed effects.

Riker's comment could be wrong, so 0.1 MT doesn't cut it.

0.1 to 0.45 does until you have better evidence.

ST:V is not a good number to use because it is TOS and they might have turned down the yield because of Capt. Kirk's proximity to the blast.

It's better then 'yield X would make them seem useful', because unlike your speculative yiled, it's evidence.

What are we left with? Nothing. If you know a good hard yield for photon torpedoes, I would like to know.

I have an uncontested in-universe statement from a Starfleet officer.

32 MT torpedo is obviously based on conjecture that photon torpedoes are useful, and more powerful than phasres or obviously they would not be used at all.

32MT is based on the totally non-canon TNG tech manual, not any 'usefulness' conjecture. Furthermore, it flies in the face of every photon torpedo incident in history.

That is what DW uses, not this generous bullshit.

Because that's what the then-sorta canon TM said. Usefulness has nothing to do with it.

One thing I want to see is somebody do the calcs to the first Borg cube incident in TNG. We know Borg cube is 97% - 98% empty space, take iron, and scale the holes and figure out the yield of phasers/photons from that. This would be a nice, hard, indisputable figure.
Brian

No it wouldn't unless you can show the damage didn't include secondary explosions.Furthermore, we don't know what happened to the affected material (it might simply have fallen a few decks-they DO have gravity in the cube), wether or not iron can be NDF'd and to what degree is uncertain (does obviously not apply to the photorps), and as you're ASSUMING iron it is hardly indisputable. It WOULD, however, be a nice ballpark figure.

[brianeyci]

No it doesn't. It simply means that Trek races don't have the means to get phaser firepower out of DET weapons. If 40PW is beyond your power generation capabilities using a weapon which will at least sometimes nets you 40PW worth of results is damn good sense. Doesn't say beans about their effect on shields they never encountered.

Don't move the goalposts. You mentioned only AQ shields, I was informing you that phasers are effective against DQ, GQ and probably even BQ shields given the technological pinnacle that everybody seems to reach (phasers). I admit, effectiveness against Imperial shields is still up in the air.

I have an uncontested in-universe statement from a Starfleet officer.

You know as well as I do that if this was something else that Riker said, like "phasers could blow up the moon!", you would say that this was hyperbole. Riker could be wrong, that's why its hard to accept his figure.

32MT is based on the totally non-canon TNG tech manual, not any 'usefulness' conjecture. Furthermore, it flies in the face of every photon torpedo incident in history.

Not if we use the cannonball theory, that the antimatter is used up trying to penetrate shields.

No it wouldn't unless you can show the damage didn't include secondary explosions.Furthermore, we don't know what happened to the affected material (it might simply have fallen a few decks-they DO have gravity in the cube), wether or not iron can be NDF'd and to what degree is uncertain (does obviously not apply to the photorps), and as you're ASSUMING iron it is hardly indisputable. It WOULD, however, be a nice ballpark figure.

Yes, a nice ballpark figure, but better than all the above estimates of photons. Unless you have a better idea, I'll pull out an image of the holes on the cube and see if anybody bites. Secondary explosions, IIRC the phaser/photons blew holes in the hull directly, there was no pause like transphasic torpedoes.

Brian

[SirNitram]

Brian, as much as you tout that 'It wouldn't be done to be nice' and continue to bleat onwards, you're really very annoying on this subject. It's been repeatedly stated by Mike himself that that page is horribly out of date, and falling back to 'Mike wouldn't just be nice..' is an Appeal To Authority fallacy anyway.

I haven't been around long enough to see that. Know how many posts you need to sift through to get to the meat? Finding MoS' analysis of Nemesis torpedoes took forever.

Out of curiousity, what are up-to-date figures for phasers and photon torpedoes? Is nobody really keeping track anymore?

Brian

Photons are rated in the low kt range from Pegasus; Quantums are considered to be low-mid kt, and phasers a little weaker than photons.

[Batman]

Don't move the goalposts. You mentioned only AQ shields, I was informing you that phasers are effective against DQ, GQ and probably even BQ shields given the technological pinnacle that everybody seems to reach (phasers). I admit, effectiveness against Imperial shields is still up in the air.

You know what, you're right. Damn. I somehow interpreted your claim to mean that they would therefore be effective against Wars shields, which you never said. I think I misunderstood your statement that phasers apparently are the pinnacle of Trek weapon evolution to mean that therefore they'd affect everybody's shields. which you also never said.
Point conceeded.

I have an uncontested in-universe statement from a Starfleet officer.

You know as well as I do that if this was something else that Riker said, like "phasers could blow up the moon!", you would say that this was hyperbole.

Because we never see PTs do that. It isn't automatically hyperbole just because a Trek character says it. Is it hyperbole if Riker says ' I can drink a glass of milk in 10 seconds' just because he says it? The problem arises when we see them state thinks that are totally unfounded.

Riker could be wrong, that's why its hard to accept his figure.

He could. Unlike with other assumptions presented on the show, there's no reason to assume he is.

32MT is based on the totally non-canon TNG tech manual, not any 'usefulness' conjecture. Furthermore, it flies in the face of every photon torpedo incident in history.

Not if we use the cannonball theory, that the antimatter is used up trying to penetrate shields.

In which manner exactly?

Yes, a nice ballpark figure, but better than all the above estimates of photons. Unless you have a better idea, I'll pull out an image of the holes on the cube and see if anybody bites. Secondary explosions, IIRC the phaser/photons blew holes in the hull directly, there was no pause like transphasic torpedoes.
Brian

I dimly recall there being but it's been quite a while since I saw it. Anybody have a video of the sequence?

[brianeyci]

Because we never see PTs do that. It isn't automatically hyperbole just because a Trek character says it. Is it hyperbole if Riker says ' I can drink a glass of milk in 10 seconds' just because he says it? The problem arises when we see them state thinks that are totally unfounded.

So, because it gives a low yield to Trek weapons, it is not totally unfounded? Give me a break. Any visual evidence of photon torpedoes at all is superior to Pegasus, even the lower-yield ST:VI torpedo is superior because we actually see the torpedo fire and not some dialogue.

How many torpedoes had the Ent-D used up to then? Maybe they only had 100 torpedoes left, or 50 torpedoes left before going back to Starbase.

Not if we use the cannonball theory, that the antimatter is used up trying to penetrate shields.

In which manner exactly?

From Brandon Bray,

Federation Photon Torpedoes are used as kinetic impactors in close-range combat. The matter/antimatter in the PhoTorp is used more to generate the energy field around the PhoTorps, but in long-range and warp speed combat can be used as multi-megaton warheads. Reasons impactor mode is used in short/medium-range combat is to avoid damaging one’s own ship and inflicting casualties and other friendly vessels... which is logical given the flying-wall formations used in Federation fleet actions during the Dominion War.

So, the possibility of photon torpedoes being multi-megaton is unlikely against a shielded vessel, but against a non-shielded vessel and non-fleet engagements it is possible. An example is ST:VI where Chekov states that one torpedo hit from the D-7 would destroy the Enterprise (or if you want to play semantics render the Enterprise unable to respond) which we haven't seen with any other kinds of photon torpedoes. The cannonball theory unifies all the different yields and seeming contradictions of torpedo yield, which is why it is superior.

Brian

[Batman]

Because we never see PTs do that. It isn't automatically hyperbole just because a Trek character says it. Is it hyperbole if Riker says ' I can drink a glass of milk in 10 seconds' just because he says it? The problem arises when we see them state thinks that are totally unfounded.

So, because it gives a low yield to Trek weapons, it is not totally unfounded? Give me a break. Any visual evidence of photon torpedoes at all is superior to Pegasus, even the lower-yield ST:VI torpedo is superior because we actually see the torpedo fire and not some dialogue.

Are you practising being dense today, Ryan? It is not totally unfounded because it's low, it is because it's not way out of line with observed yields. I agree visually observed yields are by far preferable. Pray tell me of one that exceeds .45MT.

How many torpedoes had the Ent-D used up to then? Maybe they only had 100 torpedoes left, or 50 torpedoes left before going back to Starbase.

You would prefer the yields that were visually observed, then? Like the ST:V one?

Not if we use the cannonball theory, that the antimatter is used up trying to penetrate shields.

In which manner exactly?

From Brandon Bray,

Federation Photon Torpedoes are used as kinetic impactors in close-range combat. The matter/antimatter in the PhoTorp is used more to generate the energy field around the PhoTorps, but in long-range and warp speed combat can be used as multi-megaton warheads. Reasons impactor mode is used in short/medium-range combat is to avoid damaging one’s own ship and inflicting casualties and other friendly vessels... which is logical given the flying-wall formations used in Federation fleet actions during the Dominion War.

So, the possibility of photon torpedoes being multi-megaton is unlikely against a shielded vessel, but against a non-shielded vessel and non-fleet engagements it is possible. An example is STVI where Chekov states that one torpedo hit from the D-7 would destroy the Enterprise (or if you want to play semantics render the Enterprise unable to respond) which we haven't seen with any other kinds of photon torpedoes. The cannonball theory unifies all the different yields and seeming contradictions of torpedo yield, which is why it is superior.
Brian

Except for the little bit where that theory doesn't work in long-range engagements against shielded ships. If they NEED their energy to penetrate shields they're not going to be MT. They're still going to be the pathetical kinetic penetrators of STVI. If they CAN be MT level weapons against those DESPITE needing their energy to penetrate shields, that means they deliberately dial down the yield in short-range engagements. IOW, PTs are typically KT level weapons.
Nevertheless thanks for the link.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

The Death Star runs away. The end. This is a fucking stupid senario, what's next, T-72 vs M1, only the M1 has no ammo?

[Jon]

LOL, it is, I won't disagree. I just wondered if anything had previously been said about this 'Xindi Sphere' and it's primary weapon- given how obviously the DS could deal with it the severe disadvantage was necessary just so I didnt get 'Super Laser switch on' responses. Anyhoo, it inspired some interesting replies.

[Darth Wong]

And in related news, if Lennox Lewis has both his hands tied behind his back and a blindfold strapped on him, I can beat him in a boxing match.