Species 8472 vs The Galactic Empire

[Darth Servo]

Why hasn't this guy been given a 'custom' title yet?

[Anarchist Bunny]

He's just stupid, very stupid, but not annoying so he hasn't probly gotten any complaints about to the imms, so he's kept his head out of the guillotine.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

His stupidity is annoying enough for me.

[Anarchist Bunny]

Does anybody watch the show or do you all just take this web sites word for it?

Yes, we all have probly watched most of Voyager, but, you see, we are different from you in a way. We can think, and we know at the very least, common sense of science.

[Darth Servo]

He's just stupid, very stupid, but not annoying so he hasn't probly gotten any complaints about to the imms, so he's kept his head out of the guillotine.

What do you mean he's hot annoying? He just keeps posting snippets of info from various sites that don't prove anything and when people call him on it, he just says, "duh, what do you mean you want numbers?" He's clearly a 'name game' fanatic. I say its VI time. Or is there an equivalent to 'Fundi Moron' for rabid trekkies?

[Master of Ossus]

Why hasn't this guy been given a 'custom' title yet?

Before it was just a single thread. This is now another thread. You may start a poll, as always, if you wish. Alternatively, you can PM Darth Wong and present him with the evidence we have here.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

An 8472 Bio-Ship can range in size but the onse seen in Voyager were mostly 200+ meters. This gave them great maneuverability against ships several times bigger than them. There weapons are extremely powerful. They can damage a vessel or throw it off course even if they miss. We have seen them tear a borg ship apart even with its shields up. When nine Bio-Ships combine energy they can destroy planets.

Against the Empire we can believe that the Bio-Ship will out maneuver any Star Destroyer. Several blows into the shield generaters on a Star Destroyer will bring their shields down. Against the Death Star or Super Star Destroyer is pretty easy too. All They would do is combine nine ships and fire. If a Fleet protecting them stood in the Bio-Ships way, then they would just swarm all over. Species 8472 can also travel to any point in the universe when ever they want.

Assuming the Star Destroyers will sit still and play target without even bother to RETURN FIRE at all. Idiot.

Anyway, some Bioships may have significant firepower to destroy planet (assuming it was DET and **not** chain reaction), but is their **DEFENSIVE CAPABILITY** equal to their offensive capability? I mean, what's the point of having planet-busters if they could be easily destroyed? Remember that Death Star is a terrific weapon not only because its planet-destroying capability but because its enormous defense as well (gigantic size, millions of turbolasers, very powerful shields & armor, etc).

[Ender]

Does anybody watch the show or do you all just take this web sites word for it?

We watch it. We preform work based on what we observe. And we get figures and stats as a result.

You on the other hand seem to think random shit is more canon then the show.

[Anarchist Bunny]

5 days since Sov has tried to debate. What do you think the hold up is?

Personal issues(computer trouble, busy, sudden sanity streak)?

Trouble finding more covincing pictures?

Relized we're too smart for his trolling?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

He'll be back in about a week or two, doing the same thing with a different Trek organization.

Who wants to bet it'll be the Dominion?

[Darth Servo]

He'll be back in about a week or two, doing the same thing with a different Trek organization.

Who wants to bet it'll be the Dominion?

He did give us his email...

[Darth Balls]

he's gonna try to convince us that the vulcans can beat the empire by showing a picture of a vulcan ear.

[Master of Ossus]

He'll be back in about a week or two, doing the same thing with a different Trek organization.

Who wants to bet it'll be the Dominion?

He did give us his email...

Anybody who brings him back via e-mail will face consequences. Sorry, but if we're rid of him, then we're better off.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

he's gonna try to convince us that the vulcans can beat the empire by showing a picture of a vulcan ear.

or vulcan's balls.

[consequences]

Anybody who brings him back via e-mail will face consequences

Why do I have to face him, don't I have any say in this?

[Master of Ossus]

Anybody who brings him back via e-mail will face consequences

Why do I have to face him, don't I have any say in this?

No one on this board has the right to unilaterally and knowingly bring known trolls to the board. Not even Mike Wong himself would do that.

[Ender]

Does anybody watch the show or do you all just take this web sites word for it?

I watch the show. You apparantly just jerk off to DITL.

Now now, that's not quite fair.

He jerks off to furry sites, not DITL. Not only is he a moron, he's a moron and a sick fuck!

[seanrobertson]

Assuming the Star Destroyers will sit still and play target without even bother to RETURN FIRE at all. Idiot.

LOL

All anti-Imperial scenarios involve the Impstars sitting
around waiting to be hit, I've noticed.

Anyway, some Bioships may have significant firepower to destroy planet (assuming it was DET and **not** chain reaction), but is their **DEFENSIVE CAPABILITY** equal to their offensive capability?

Exactly.

And though there is some kind of chain-reaction involved in
their planet-busting, I will say that I think the bioships' initial shot
at the planet demonstrated significant direct energy transfer--
look how much the surface was heated (something other
chain-reaction weapons, like phasers, don't do to great degree).

But how long does it take to charge up for such an attack?
Perhaps more important, how much of a bioship's fuel does
that consume?

For all we know, the entire fuel loadout of 9 bioships or hours
of charging up might be required to do the initial level of
damage we saw (which, of course, was very impressive IMO--
firepower worthy of perhaps a starship-mounted superlaser?).

That could partly explain why the nine ships didn't then break
formation and run after the cube tractoring VGR. They simply
had no more juice and had to go home to refuel, or something
similar.

We DO know, however, that Borg weapons can damage
bioships. We're told one ship was damaged such that it
couldn't return home (the one attacked by the Hirogen in
"Prey"). And the very first one we saw had been hurt
badly enough that it powered down to regenerate from
a Borg disruptor hit.

It's possible that one ship had been nailed by repeated
hits from the 15 cube fleet VGR encountered, but we only
know of the one, hurtful disruptor blast. Like Dutch said
in "Predator," if it bleeds, we can kill it. Likewise, what
damages the ship's hull isn't a far cry from what will ultimately
kill it--that is, since the bioships are "said" to not use
conventional shielding.

I mean, what's the point of having planet-busters if they could be easily destroyed? Remember that Death Star is a terrific weapon not only because its planet-destroying capability but because its enormous defense as well (gigantic size, millions of turbolasers, very powerful shields & armor, etc).

Yep.

Bioships working in their star formation could destroy probably everything
up to Imperial cruisers with a solid hit. I don't think a split-second
contact would necessarily be enough to destroy a battlecruiser like Executor, though. Hard to say there, but...

It doesn't really matter, in any event, since any gun capable of
delivering several gigatons in a single hit (medium-type turbolasers?)
should blow a bioship out of the sky. Nothing the Eights have
has demonstrated the resilience to withstand hundreds of gigatons
or more, to be sure. And most Imperial warships have at least
gigaton-class weapons, even those far smaller than Imperators.
Those ships which lack gigaton to teraton energy weapons would
have neat toys like the Fetts' seismic charges or something similar/
better.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

So, do you think Sovereign will respond with a rebuttal anytime soon? Be a hypocrite and say that the bioships use DET while the DS needs an MCR? Do something truly worthy of a VI title?

Even if the bioships are powerful enough to take out an ISD, ISD weapons are powerful and accurate enough ot easily take out a bioship before it has a chance to fire.

[seanrobertson]

Even if the bioships are powerful enough to take out an ISD, ISD weapons are powerful and accurate enough ot easily take out a bioship before it has a chance to fire.

Exactly. Some bioships might have a chance to do some damage,
but all of that depends on one very, very big thing:

RESOLVE!

I can partly excuse the Eights'...pussiness in running out of
the Delta Quadrant. They were, after all, xenophobes, and
their fight with the Borg was supposedly their first war.

But...

That does not change the fact that, in *observed circumstances*,
the Eights showed themselves to be, for whatever reason,
downright cowardly. Very powerful cowards, to be sure, but
one wonders if they'd ever press a conflict with the Empire
when the first ISD they meet is able to stand firmly against
them.

THAT has to be determined before any fanboy invents
masturbatory fantasies in which the Eights are wiping out
ISDs on a regular basis, etc. And it's something that
can't be determined, not from what little information we
have of them.

[Ender]

Ughh...

Am I the only nontrekkie here who is sick of all the 8472 arguments coming down to "Their pusseys!"? Lets see if we can try refuting via calcs and logic folks. The basic assumptions should be they aren't going to back down, just as it is that the Feds won't cave then an ISD pulls into orbit, or that a Stormie won't run like hell from a xenomorph.

[seanrobertson]

Ughh...

Am I the only nontrekkie here who is sick of all the 8472 arguments coming down to "Their pusseys!"? Lets see if we can try refuting via calcs and logic folks. The basic assumptions should be they aren't going to back down, just as it is that the Feds won't cave then an ISD pulls into orbit, or that a Stormie won't run like hell from a xenomorph.

I know what you mean Ender. I've actually defended the Eights'
honor a time or two, LOL...

Though I think it's ultimately pointless to argue whether or not
their actions at the end of "Scorpion" are cowardly, I will say
that I can understand their reaction. They'd soundly
beaten the Borg for five months; then, suddenly, this little
ship--by all indications inferior to cubes and spheres--opens
up a sudden can of whupass on 'em. That's pretty scary...if
something so unexpected happened, I might pull my forces
in the immediate vicinity back, but that is not the action of
any competent military commander. I'd be more inclined to just
send more ships to destroy VGR...try, try again!

It's also possible that the Eights ordered a general retreat
because they feared the Borg would acquire knowledge of
the enhanced nanoprobes very quickly. The Eights did,
after all, think VGR and the Borg were pretty tight.

But...

Even *with* the nanoprobes, the Borg would still struggle
to win. Perhaps one cube could take several bioships instead
of the other way around (I'll give the Borg this: as the episode
wore on, they did seem able to take a few more hits from
Eight weaponry before blowing sky-high). But would that
be enough?

As Michael has said, all the nanoprobes would do is really
even the playing field for the conflict. It might seem to tip
things in favor of the Borg initially, but the Eights could
still destroy planets at will. The Borg might start to
win the war in deep space, but the Eights could still strike
them were it hurts most. Nanoprobes wouldn't protect
the Unicomplex or transwarp hubs from a barrage of heavy
fire.

As for actual figures, if we assume that the bioships' planetary
bombardment is initiatized by DET (in part to explain the visible
heating of the planet), where would we really start? The first
split second shattered the planet's crust convincingly and
melted it in large areas, but that's not a great point at
which to start a calculation.

Let's say they did actually melt the entire crust in, say,
a second of firing. That seems a bit goofy but just for
the sake of...

It'd take at least 4E28J to vaporize an Earth-like planetary
crust (from Michael's NDF Theory page, found by linking to
his Phaser/Fed beam weapon analysis page). To melt
it, very roughly speaking, we might be looking at an order
of magnitude less energy.

So again, just for the sake of argument, let's assume the Eights
could fire a maximum beam of 4E27W. That's with nine ships
working in their planet-killer op.

IMO, that would be enough to destroy a Star Destroyer outright.
I figure her shielding would be in the 2.5E24W range (based
on a total reactor output of 1E25W, which is unofficial
but generally accepted given the enormous size
differential between an ISD and the Acclamators.

Would it be enough to destroy a command ship? Probably;
I doubt the Executor has shields well over 1,000 times
stronger than an ISD's.

When you get to the truly monstrous Super cruisers, though,
anyone's guess is better than mine.

It would not seriously threaten a Death Star or most planetary
shields, however.

But the real question is, could the Eights ever pull such
an attack, let alone do it thousands of times over and over,
as would be required to gain any sort of ground against
the Imperials? (I'm generously assuming it IS possible when
that's really less of a given than anything else in the argument.)

IMO, no, definitely not. Even if the Eights could pop into realspace,
in formation, and blast ISDs, cruisers, and battleships consistently,
they'd still take tremendous losses--a lot more than the few
dozen or perhaps few hundred they took against the Borg.
(The latter figure is a pure guess, probably an overestimation.)
That alone would make them give up.

It also appears that such a tactic isn't feasible, at least that
we know of. The one time we saw them form up and shoot
at a planet, it took them around ten seconds to get in position,
charge up, and start shooting. And my God, they were shooting at a *planet*! There's a lot less precision required there than hitting a
mile-long ship that's got impressive straight-line acceleration.
*Finding* a planet is probably a lot easier than picking out
ships to slug it out with too.

But, if it was somehow feasible, and the Eights had a large
number of ships just waiting to pounce on lots of Imperial
fleets with no warning whatsoever, however dubious this
is, the Imperials have a rather simple solution:

Give all ships standing orders to operate under heavy fighter
escort. Once the Eights show up, the mothership will hyperjump,
and the fighters--armed with high-yield warheads--will tear
into the Eights. Better yet, simply automate some turbolaser
stations to fire into "quantum singularites" whenever they formed.
I don't think anyone would argue that a bioship could withstand
200 gigatons plus.

The Eights can't destroy what they can't hit, and if they had
a modicum of intelligence, they wouldn't waste time chasing
ships down for duels. Instead, they'd try to attack the Imperial
infrastructure, namely planets. When they find planetary shields
and numerous small but heavily armed craft (think patrol
ships armed with such things as seismic charges), not to mention
Imperial cruisers, they'd realize the whole futility of the thing.

That is, assuming they didn't give up immediately and all

[KhyronTheBackstabber]

Sovereign, you pathetic earth worm, you have angered Gir with your STUPID jpeg thingies,and baseless claimes!



http://www.siberkat.com/thewavszim2/stupid3g.wav

Click the link to hear what Gir thinks.

[Darth Servo]

They'd soundly
beaten the Borg for five months; then, suddenly, this little
ship--by all indications inferior to cubes and spheres--opens
up a sudden can of whupass on 'em.

You call the loss of 17 ships "a can of whupass"? Compare that to the loss of HUNDREDS of cubes. THAT'S whupass.

It's also possible that the Eights ordered a general retreat
because they feared the Borg would acquire knowledge of
the enhanced nanoprobes very quickly.

All the more reason for 8472 to press the attack NOW. They had telepathic info on Voyager's capabilities. They SHOULD have known that Voyager only had ONE high yield warhead. If they didn't then that just proves their own stupidity.

(I'll give the Borg this: as the episode wore on, they did seem able to take a few more hits from Eight weaponry before blowing sky-high).

Thats not what I remember from the episode. At the start of part one, we see two cubes get hit from 8472 weapons. The ships did NOT immediately explode demonstrating that the weapon did NOT have the energy to blow up the cube but rather the cubes detonated from either their power source exploding or the chain reaction nature of the weapon. The last time we see cube vs bioship combat is at the start of part two and there is one confirmed hit on the cube blasting a chunk out. The cube and the bioship then collide and destroy each other.

but the Eights could still destroy planets at will.

We see them destroy a planet at the end of part one and we are told later that a total of eight planets had been destroyed. Some trekkies argue that this was from one attack but there is no evidence either way. We don't know how long it takes to recharge after destroying a planet and we don't know how many of the special planet killer ships they have. So how do you argue that they can destroy planets "at will"?

As for actual figures, if we assume that the bioships' planetary
bombardment is initiatized by DET (in part to explain the visible
heating of the planet), where would we really start? The first
split second shattered the planet's crust convincingly and
melted it in large areas, but that's not a great point at
which to start a calculation.

Let's say they did actually melt the entire crust in, say,
a second of firing. That seems a bit goofy but just for
the sake of...

you can see the sequencefor yourself on Mikes canon database.

[Sovereign]

It's also possible that the Eights ordered a general retreat
because they feared the Borg would acquire knowledge of
the enhanced nanoprobes very quickly.

All the more reason for 8472 to press the attack NOW. They had telepathic info on Voyager's capabilities. They SHOULD have known that Voyager only had ONE high yield warhead. If they didn't then that just proves their own stupidity.



8472 had returned to their universe to rethink there plan. They ended up preparing to infiltrate Starfleet and then invade, full scale. Voyager also made peace with them and gave them the Nanoprobe weapon. You must know they only left to prepair the next move.

Info from...
http://www.startrek.com/library/voy_epi ... 103771.asp


Also, someone said that in five months, 8472 only destroyed 8 planets and assumed that they have a very slow recharge rate. If you pay a loser attention, the Borg reported...

"Species 8472 has penetrated Matrix 010 Grid 19. Eight planets destroyed. 312 vessels disabled. 4,600,021 Borg eliminated"

(you can hear this at... http://www.stinsv.com/TNg/borga.htm )

This meens that they have only just penetrated a new area of the Borg's Vast area of space, and they have just destroyed 8 Planets. There is no way of knowing how many total have been destroyed, but 7 of 9 estimated around the Hundreds.

Oh, and yes, I AM BACK!