Federation Strategy for Defeating the Empire

[Darth Wong]

(A) Install phase cloak on the largest ship in Starfleet (probably a Soveriegn but I'm not sure).

So ... redevelop a device whose only prototype was lost and whose entire research team was killed? And do this (plus testing, prototyping, and installation, assuming everything goes perfectly on the first try) in less time than it takes for the Empire to get ships to Earth once they're already in our galaxy? That's your plan?

(B) In case phase cloaks are unavailable. Have the bomb delivery ship escorted by Starfleet, in its entirety (if this doesn't work it won't matter anyway).

Presuming that this wormhole (assuming that this is how they get here) happens to be located within a few hundred light years of Earth? Or do you figure the Empire will sit around and wait for months or years doing nothing?

From what I've read about wormholes when a wormhole collapses it releases a fuckload of energy.

Bullshit. Real wormholes are theorized to open and then spontaneously collapse without leaving any traces. Where did you read this?

Why do you presume that any plan could salvage this situation? Why do you think most Trekkies end up resorting to the time-travel bullshit argument, totally disregarding all of the wars in which this tactic was never used (even the Q's civil war)? This is like asking how US armoured division could stop the entire Red Army from taking West Germany during the Cold War. There is simply no plan that will do the job.

[Sarevok]

The Federation is doomed if the wormhole isnt destroyed fast. With an Imperial fleet guarding the other side of the wormholes the Rebels cant come and help the Federation. Best option would be not to try anything foolish and surrender the entire Federation to the Empire. It would save a lot of lives.

[Solauren]

Unless you find a way to bypass Imperial Shields and Armor, there is no way to defeat them in military combat.

WIthout being able to do that, your only hope is to wait a generation, have as many people get into the Imperial navy as possible, and them try to take over ships from within

As for bypassing the shields and armor, several ideas have been discussed using existing or 'abandoned' Star Trek technology, but the full extent of there capacities and limitations are not known, so they are questionable at best, even if pre-developed and deployed

[Stark]

I ask again - how can any long-term insurrection survive in a population used to strong government, who probably never interact with the Imperials (if they even know of their existence) and the majority of whom will never witness or hear about any negative actions?

By the time they're in the Imperial fleet, I seriously doubt they'll want to reinstate the Federation.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

It depends whether or not I knew that the Empire was coming, and how long I had.

I think it makes sense to break it down into time periods.

100 years,

I'd be dead when the Empire arrives so the best thing I could do is telling my kids and grandchildren the Empire is much better so they will love the Empire and actually join them when they arrive.

50 years,

See above. Well, probably I'll be still alive but who gives a damn when you're lying on your deathbed?

25 years,

I'd be 54 when the Empire comes. Close to retirement. So the best thing to do is hoarding as much money as possible so when they come I would apply for Imperial citizenship and live a rich retirement on Naboo.

5 years,

I'll be 34. Either it would be a *very* early retirement or becoming an Imperial agent in StarFleet; or both.

On the other hand, if I could self-train myself to be a Dark Jedi in five years.....

6 months.

Well, probably I'll be the worst corruptor/looter in the Federation, using my position to loot and hoard as much money as I could, snatching a HUGE amount from Starfleet's bank account, turning my ship into privateering vessel, and presuading my crew that private sector is much better. Of course, Starfleet will surely hunt me down but six months later they won't exist anymore so who cares?

As well, lets assume that you have the technical readouts of the capabilities of the Empire, so you can convince rational minded people.

To surrender? Probably yes but if the top-brass up there decide to adpot Picard's "lasers-won't-even-penetrate-our-navigational-deflectors" attitude, I think the best way to survive is requesting an early retirement as soon as possible.

Call me an opportunist but frankly, the only thing worth defending of the Federation is the holodeck.

But of course, if I have no choice but defending the Federation from Imperial invasion, I think the Janeway - Lwaxanna Troi lesbian porn would still work.....

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Frankly, despite what the OP said, I couldn't see any plausible way to "defend" the Federation other than THIS:

[Trekdestroyer]

Incarcerate your citizens and then add cyber implants so they can be controled over long distance and then pitt the guys against trained stormtroopers. They are going to die anyway, so they might as well go out in a blaze of glory.

[Lord Revan]

(A) Install phase cloak on the largest ship in Starfleet (probably a Soveriegn but I'm not sure).

So ... redevelop a device whose only prototype was lost and whose entire research team was killed? And do this (plus testing, prototyping, and installation, assuming everything goes perfectly on the first try) in less time than it takes for the Empire to get ships to Earth once they're already in our galaxy? That's your plan?

IIRC the cloak prototype from Pegasus was recovered and installed successfully into the Enterprise (NCC-1701-D).

[brianeyci]

There may be one thing that people are forgetting.

Hyperspace requires maps and detailed data.

Downloading the maps from a Harry Mud or Quark type may not be enough. The Federation still hasn't charted all of its own space, and likely lacks the type of maps which will be necessary for hyperspace.

Do we have any canon evidence of how long say, a mapping expedition in the unknown regions of SW takes? This may buy the Federation time as the Empire maps the area for safe hyperspace routes. It may not be as simple as a single decapitation strike.

I could bring up numbers from SW RPG, but that's a game mechanic, I'd rather have quotations on the length of mapping expeditions.

Brian

[Darth Wong]

(A) Install phase cloak on the largest ship in Starfleet (probably a Soveriegn but I'm not sure).

So ... redevelop a device whose only prototype was lost and whose entire research team was killed? And do this (plus testing, prototyping, and installation, assuming everything goes perfectly on the first try) in less time than it takes for the Empire to get ships to Earth once they're already in our galaxy? That's your plan?

IIRC the cloak prototype from Pegasus was recovered and installed successfully into the Enterprise (NCC-1701-D).

And it was also declared illegal, hence presumably destroyed. It sure would have come in handy during the Dominion War, yet they never dragged it up. Not even Admiral Leyton could come up with it.

[Darth Wong]

There may be one thing that people are forgetting.

Hyperspace requires maps and detailed data.

Or a general map and a probe droid sent ahead of you to make sure the path is clear. Don't be a moron.

Downloading the maps from a Harry Mud or Quark type may not be enough. The Federation still hasn't charted all of its own space, and likely lacks the type of maps which will be necessary for hyperspace.

Do we have any canon evidence of how long say, a mapping expedition in the unknown regions of SW takes? This may buy the Federation time as the Empire maps the area for safe hyperspace routes. It may not be as simple as a single decapitation strike.

I could bring up numbers from SW RPG, but that's a game mechanic, I'd rather have quotations on the length of mapping expeditions.

Brian

As I said, don't be a moron.

[SirNitram]

Hyperspace requires maps and detailed data.

The magic device needed to handle this is called a telescope. Not to mention the ISD's sensors have a logical minimum range of 100LY in realtime(Based on the fact it can scan communications at such a range in realtime. Sensor tech and comm tech are always tightly linked..). So, ah, yea, your bleating of something that's been smacked down repeatedly in the last month is irrelevent.

[Striderteen]

This is like asking how US armoured division could stop the entire Red Army from taking West Germany during the Cold War. There is simply no plan that will do the job.

Except, of course, for the minor detail that a U.S. armored division is superior to the Red Army on a man-for-man, tank-for-tank basis, wheras the Federation is both quantitatively and qualitatively inferior to the Empire.

[Darth Wong]

This is like asking how US armoured division could stop the entire Red Army from taking West Germany during the Cold War. There is simply no plan that will do the job.

Except, of course, for the minor detail that a U.S. armored division is superior to the Red Army on a man-for-man, tank-for-tank basis, wheras the Federation is both quantitatively and qualitatively inferior to the Empire.

True, although the sheer hopelessness of the analogy still works

[brianeyci]

One question I have is... why Star Trek vs Star Wars? You do not have to do much research at all to compare the size of the DS2 to a Borg Cube, and compare the industrial capacity of the Federation to the industrial capacity of the Empire. Was there ever a point, ever, where there was a good argument for the Federation winning? Was it only Star Trek vs Star Wars because these are the two largest sci-fi franchises, or was there another reason why this started?

I do not see how you could not, after for example a day of number crunching or even a few hours of number crunching, or after First Contact and the 150 star systems vs millions of star systems, come to the inevitable conclusion that the Federation is not on par with the Empire and never was.

Brian

[Darth Wong]

One question I have is... why Star Trek vs Star Wars? You do not have to do much research at all to compare the size of the DS2 to a Borg Cube, and compare the industrial capacity of the Federation to the industrial capacity of the Empire. Was there ever a point, ever, where there was a good argument for the Federation winning?

No.

Was it only Star Trek vs Star Wars because these are the two largest sci-fi franchises, or was there another reason why this started?

Well, not to sound childish, but the Trekkies basically started it. And they still do; go to any webboard and when anyone asks who would win between SW and ST, guess what happens. That's right; the first response is almost ALWAYS from a Trekkie, spouting the same generic arguments we've exposed as fallacious bullshit countless times here.

I do not see how you could not, after for example a day of number crunching or even a few hours of number crunching, or after First Contact and the 150 star systems vs millions of star systems, come to the inevitable conclusion that the Federation is not on par with the Empire and never was.

Brian

It's easy; you just have to be a fan-whore.

[Junghalli]

and as Imperial technology opened the wormhole in the first place, it would not be a hugely difficult feat for the passage to be reopened; just another construction project for Sinear Fleet Systems to contract out for.

Why do you assume the wormhole was artificial? I would think it would be more likely that it would be a natural phenomenon, given that as far as I can remember the Empire has never displayed this capability.
You're right though, in that it was a strategy of desperation on my part (when fighting such a massively superior foe pretty much ANYTHING is grasping at straws).

[BabelHuber]

Since there is now way for the Federation to fight and win against the empire immediately, the only thing Starfleet personal could do is wait.

People who want to oppose would have to play the empire's game, as long as

- They can establish contact with the Rebel Alliance and get support. It will still take some time to train the former Starfleet crews, but it the end they could start performing hit-and-run-attacks and go on further from here.

- Imperial technology becomes widespread in the ST galaxy. Then they could get support from within the galaxy and start an uprise.

[Junghalli]

Would the Feds really care? They're used to a controlled, top-heavy society. They're used to doing what the military says. They're be a few days of odd transmissions coming in, some shuffling in the council, and then it'd be over and most civilians would never even have known there was a war on. Most Feddies would never even see an Imperial vessel and live. The remmants of Starfleet and minor fleet auxillaries would be enough to maintain control while they conquer the rest of the galaxy, and they're hardly going to set up fucking death camps or repossess all property are they?

Depends, are we talking about the TNG Fed or the TOS Fed? If it's the TNG Fed you're probably right (although IMO I would still rather live in the TNG Fed than in the Empire; at least they don't execute you when you piss the wrong guy off). But if we're talking TOS Fed were basically talking about something like the US getting taken over by something like Nazi Germany. There WILL be resistance, because life under the Empire will be horrible. And repossessing property and setting up death camps actually sounds very much in line with the Empire. I mean, they destroy WORLDS as theatrical gestures for fucks sake!
That said, cultures like the TOS Fed (not to be confused with communist TNG Fed) do have a habit of conquering the conquerors .

[Patrick Degan]

and as Imperial technology opened the wormhole in the first place, it would not be a hugely difficult feat for the passage to be reopened; just another construction project for Sinear Fleet Systems to contract out for.

Why do you assume the wormhole was artificial? I would think it would be more likely that it would be a natural phenomenon, given that as far as I can remember the Empire has never displayed this capability.

And a stable natural wormhole does not exist in the ST continuity at all. The Bajoran Wormhole doesn't count as it was an artefact constructed by the Prophets. An artificial wormhole would be an outgrowth of the Empire's existing hyperdrive technologies, and is the assumption behind the fanfic up on the main site.

[Junghalli]

One question I have is... why Star Trek vs Star Wars? You do not have to do much research at all to compare the size of the DS2 to a Borg Cube, and compare the industrial capacity of the Federation to the industrial capacity of the Empire. Was there ever a point, ever, where there was a good argument for the Federation winning? Was it only Star Trek vs Star Wars because these are the two largest sci-fi franchises, or was there another reason why this started?

I guess just cause they're the two biggest SF franchises. You're right, it's pathetic. Federation vs. Empire is like a small African tribe vs. the Roman Empire. What do you think would happen? It's pretty depressing. The whole galaxy gets steamrolled by a quasi-theocratic military dictatorship lead by a guy who consumes people's souls and is constantly building giant war machines to make up for his substandard pecker .
The only good thing that comes of it is that the contemptable men and women who ran the Federation into the ground will feel the full weight of the Empire's wrath . They do richly deserve it. Unfortunately, every Fed citizen will suffer with them.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

And a stable natural wormhole does not exist in the ST continuity at all. The Bajoran Wormhole doesn't count as it was an artefact constructed by the Prophets. An artificial wormhole would be an outgrowth of the Empire's existing hyperdrive technologies, and is the assumption behind the fanfic up on the main site.

The wormhole in the FanFic was natural. The Imperials just added some rings to it to hold it open and stable.

[Darth Wong]

And a stable natural wormhole does not exist in the ST continuity at all. The Bajoran Wormhole doesn't count as it was an artefact constructed by the Prophets. An artificial wormhole would be an outgrowth of the Empire's existing hyperdrive technologies, and is the assumption behind the fanfic up on the main site.

The wormhole in the FanFic was natural. The Imperials just added some rings to it to hold it open and stable.

Correct, because it would have wandered off eventually if they had not done that, just like any normal Trek wormhole.

[Myrmidon]

The only way to stop the Empire would be to deflect their interest.

Kill Palpantine and the Empire would withdraw to fight over which Grand Admiral takes over the whole enchalada. Of course that would only get them a breather and it would probably be harder than beating the Imperial Navy, since Palpy can tell when someone is after him.

Destroying anything the Empire was guarding would be probably be beyond Starfleet's reach. The Empire could simply put the intergalactic gate in the Delta Quadrant or half a galactic diameter outside the galaxy. Even if it was near Mars, the Federation would be screwed.

That being said, it would be overwhelmingly in earth's best interest to join the Empire. Earth only survived by luck so far in the Federation. There have been too many 'skin of their teeth' squeakers not to give joining the Empire very serious thought. There would be many benefits and almost no drawbacks.

Humans run the Empire and humans run the Federation. When bad guys come knocking, they don't go after the Vulcans or any other group. The plan is always 'go straight to Earth and get those pesky humans and the rest will collapse.' Imagine them running into an enormous Imperial fleet and a heavily shielded and fortified system instead of a joke like Starfleet Command.

Beyond military benefits, there is also the economy to consider. How many merchants would welcome a two-galaxy free market with open arms? The standard of living would go up enormously and the combative aliens that get in the way would be ruthlessly and quickly exterminated. I mean, does anyone really like Klingons anyway?

In a galaxy that contains all kinds of badhats, like the Borg for instance, it
is only natural that earth would want to join an unbeatable human-dominated power and crush all the hideous aliens into submission. Even if earth fights, the Empire will do it anyway. Everyone left will hate humans after that, so better to be the hammer than the nail.

Screw the Vulcans.

[Darth Fanboy]

1-Travel back in time a few hundred years, (prior to ww3), slingshot around the sun will do.

2-Boost technology of society by bringing back goodies.

3-wait until before Empire arrives

4-Repeat from step 1 until Gridfire is developed.