A new idea: Clark Kent in the ST/SWverse.

[Praxis]

I think he would help the rebels, but there is no telling how much he would help. Again, an Imperial walker may be too heavy for him to throw and too armoured to punch through. Though he could stop the foot troopers just by speeding by and stealing their guns. Now Vader is a whole different story. The Force may kill him just as easily as Captian Needa.

An Imperial Walker being too heavy for Superman to throw? What, did they totally pussify Superman in Smallville? The idea is crazy to me.

Also, about your phasorized/vaporize. One's a real word the other isn't.

No, he hasn't been pussified at all, but so far we haven't seen any maximum limits. The biggest thing he's lifted is a car (with complete ease). I don't want to fall for a 'no limits' fallacy and claim he can knock over a walker when I haven't seen any maximums.

If he can lift an AT-AT-level object in the comics/cartoons, then...woah, he'll do even better on Hoth than I thought

[Praxis]

I've been wondering this myself. He's never been in space in Smallville, and I never watched any of the Superman cartoons or read the comics.

Does anyone who has know if Superman can survive in space?

Which Superman?

Smallville? Unknown.

Cartoon. Yes

Comic. Yes.

Which comicverse? IIRC post-crisis Superman couldn't survive in space for very long time, because he still needs oxygen to breathe. For example, in The Kingdom he and Wonder Woman wore a breathing mask when they were having a conversation on an asteroid.

I never watch Smallville, though. Dunno', never like TV-series, non-cartoon superhero themes. How vulnerable Smallville Supes is? Is he more like John Byrne "not-that-invulnerable" post-crisis Supes, or the "totally invulnerable" Silver Age one?

He's almost completely invulnerable by the third season (he grows stronger through the series, as he's not an adult yet). Bullets have almost no effect on him, and the only things that can even remotely hurt him are:
a) Anything made from Kryptonite
b) Someone with similar strength as him.

But he hasn't been shown to take MT-level blasts like the comic book version of Superman, so in that way, he's probably weaker. I suspect he could *probably* take an AT-AT blast, but I can't be 100% sure. He could definitely take blaster hits though, so no lucky shots from troopers).

I'd say the only way they could take him out would be orbital bombardment or Darth Vader.

You did...must have missed where you noted that speed was in terms of 100m/s or 1 KM/s or 10 KM/s

I must have missed something. What do you mean?

You made the argument. Not my place to go into you doing your work.

Since we've never seen anyone rip off the hatch of an AT-AT, there's no way to really estimate, but come on. This is SUPERMAN we're talking about. He rips through steel walls. He could *probably* LIFT the AT-AT. How could he not be able to rip off the hatch, go inside, and wipe out all troops on the inside?

That's why they hit individual troops near the end and destroyed most speeders at will.

While they were eventually able to take out the speeders, they didn't have an easy time doing it. Clark would be a lot smaller and I suspect faster, and therefore, very, very hard to hit with the big AT-AT weapons.

Like I said...like that you make your assertions yet provide no math.

Want to keep yup the thought of not providing Burden of Proof as you're the one going "He'll own the Empire at HOTH!!!" in the Smallville scenario, and you're now making the assertion he'll own the Empire because they can't hit his size of object....because why again?

I believe you misread my previous post.

I said in the Smallville scenario, he'll have no problem taking out the ground troops and AT-ST's, but wouldn't be able to do much to the AT-AT's.

I said in the COMICS scenario, which YOU said that he could survive "hundreds of megatons", he would own the Empire, because I certianly have not seen hundred-megaton yields from AT-AT cannons

[ANGELUS]

Does anyone who has know if Superman can survive in space?

The Comics Superman can survive for about two hours in space with the air in his lungs from a single breath.
I don't remember exactly the comic I read this on, but I'll search for it and let you know. (Gotta check that old box of comics in the atic )

[gamesguy]

Heres a low end estimate of SM supes speed.

In that one episode where the russian guy that can control probability comes in. Clark was the quarterback playing a game, a guy was about to tackle him. He ran more than 200 meters at the minimum(halfway across the field, through the doorway, down the hallway, into a room, and BACK) to knock the russian guy. No one noticed, not even a flicker, everyone was in the EXACT same position as they were when Clark left.

Lets say the dude that was tackling him was moving at 1m/s, pretty reasonable. Since he moves so little that we cant tell the difference, lets say he moved 1 mm during all this time.

so in 1/1000th of a second, Clark was able to run over 200 meters and disarm a guy, with no apparent effort at all. Thats 200,000 meters/second, or over 200 km/sec, at the bare minimum.

Consiering that the AT-ATs had trouble hitting snowspeeders traveling at 1% of that speed, somehow I doubt they can hit supes.

[gamesguy]

For survival in space, SM supes was able to fly to about 30k feet or so, with no apparent breathing problems(granted he was stronger at the time).

[Superman]

In DKR (or was it KC), Superman survived a nuke. I seriously doubt you're going to vaporize him with a phaser.

[Superman]

Don't forget that phaser's don't work like normal weapons. Their vapourization system isn't about normal energy output.

Then what is it about?

it depends on just how organic Superman really is

He's 100% organic. He's not a machine.

he is probably made of molecules unlike what we've seen phasers affect.

Look, the only difference between Krtyptonians and humans is that the former can process solar energy. That's it. Other than that, they are identical in every way to humans.

[Ghost Rider]

Look, the only difference between Krtyptonians and humans is that the former can process solar energy. That's it. Other than that, they are identical in every way to humans.

Though, how does that account for his powers? Just being able to take the about 1 kilowatt per square metre of solar power doesn't account for his feats.

But, if he is identical to humans, than he can be vapourized. Phasers work be a quasi-magical (for lack of a better word) effect, analyzed here on the main site. They chain-reaction the matter into practical nonexistence. And they have consistantly been very effective on humans.

Actually there likely immense difference between the two. Being that his skin maintains an invulnerability even when he's dead as a dodo.

Also...a phaser would have to go through his TK field which has shown to take at the upper limit at least 1-2GT.

And yes, he has a TK field or there is no way of accounting for the fact of 99% of his super strength as well as it explains his supposed aura.

[Ghost Rider]

Heres a low end estimate of SM supes speed.

In that one episode where the russian guy that can control probability comes in. Clark was the quarterback playing a game, a guy was about to tackle him. He ran more than 200 meters at the minimum(halfway across the field, through the doorway, down the hallway, into a room, and BACK) to knock the russian guy. No one noticed, not even a flicker, everyone was in the EXACT same position as they were when Clark left.

Lets say the dude that was tackling him was moving at 1m/s, pretty reasonable. Since he moves so little that we cant tell the difference, lets say he moved 1 mm during all this time.

so in 1/1000th of a second, Clark was able to run over 200 meters and disarm a guy, with no apparent effort at all. Thats 200,000 meters/second, or over 200 km/sec, at the bare minimum.

Consiering that the AT-ATs had trouble hitting snowspeeders traveling at 1% of that speed, somehow I doubt they can hit supes.

And how did the people miss the sonic boom ?

[Stravo]

If Clark were Force sensitive he would be an unstoppable Jedi: Precog + Superspeed equals untouchable.

[Ghost Rider]

If Clark were Force sensitive he would be an unstoppable Jedi: Precog + Superspeed equals untouchable.

\

Fuck that...flight...ranged beam weapon...already enhanced stregth.......added with a Jedi abilites.

Hell the Emporer would be cumming in his pants at the thought of turning something like that to the Dark Side.

[Batman]

Heres a low end estimate of SM supes speed.
In that one episode where the russian guy that can control probability comes in. Clark was the quarterback playing a game, a guy was about to tackle him. He ran more than 200 meters at the minimum(halfway across the field, through the doorway, down the hallway, into a room, and BACK) to knock the russian guy. No one noticed, not even a flicker, everyone was in the EXACT same position as they were when Clark left.
Lets say the dude that was tackling him was moving at 1m/s, pretty reasonable. Since he moves so little that we cant tell the difference, lets say he moved 1 mm during all this time.
so in 1/1000th of a second, Clark was able to run over 200 meters and disarm a guy, with no apparent effort at all. Thats 200,000 meters/second, or over 200 km/sec, at the bare minimum.
Consiering that the AT-ATs had trouble hitting snowspeeders traveling at 1% of that speed, somehow I doubt they can hit supes.

And how did the people miss the sonic boom ?

Screw the sonic boom. 200 kps? How about the bow wave of ionized air?
Nevertheless, unless gamesguy's estimates are of by 3 or more orders of magnitude, he has a point. Furthermore, as SM Clark going superspeed NEVER evidences the side effects that SHOULD come with it, him going hypersoinc without anybody noticing is moderately believable. Maybe he can pull a Flash and tap into the Speed Force to avoid having to face the consequences?
As for involving canon Superman, I'd rather we didn't. The guy's back up to moving planets around all by his lonesome, and quite simply ignores kiloton level firepower. Hoth would be a pushover.
@Clark: DKR is in no way shape or form canon.

[Ghost Rider]

Heres a low end estimate of SM supes speed.
In that one episode where the russian guy that can control probability comes in. Clark was the quarterback playing a game, a guy was about to tackle him. He ran more than 200 meters at the minimum(halfway across the field, through the doorway, down the hallway, into a room, and BACK) to knock the russian guy. No one noticed, not even a flicker, everyone was in the EXACT same position as they were when Clark left.
Lets say the dude that was tackling him was moving at 1m/s, pretty reasonable. Since he moves so little that we cant tell the difference, lets say he moved 1 mm during all this time.
so in 1/1000th of a second, Clark was able to run over 200 meters and disarm a guy, with no apparent effort at all. Thats 200,000 meters/second, or over 200 km/sec, at the bare minimum.
Consiering that the AT-ATs had trouble hitting snowspeeders traveling at 1% of that speed, somehow I doubt they can hit supes.

And how did the people miss the sonic boom ?

Screw the sonic boom. 200 kps? How about the bow wave of ionized air?
Nevertheless, unless gamesguy's estimates are of by 3 or more orders of magnitude, he has a point. Furthermore, as SM Clark going superspeed NEVER evidences the side effects that SHOULD come with it, him going hypersoinc without anybody noticing is moderately believable. Maybe he can pull a Flash and tap into the Speed Force to avoid having to face the consequences?
As for involving canon Superman, I'd rather we didn't. The guy's back up to moving planets around all by his lonesome, and quite simply ignores kiloton level firepower. Hoth would be a pushover.
@Clark: DKR is in no way shape or form canon.

Oh there's the whole what happens with the atmosphere. And you could give a surmise of the Speed Force, though he attributes none of the other abilities at all.

But beyond that...I have yet to see proof of Smaville Clark having magnitude order strength of ripping through feet of Durasteel.

As for Superman at hoth....LOL...I want to hear someone tell me he would assrape the ground forces. Spacewise...he gets hurt. Groundpounding...sorry, That's not a battle. He survives easily MT level blasts.

[Praxis]

Heres a low end estimate of SM supes speed.

In that one episode where the russian guy that can control probability comes in. Clark was the quarterback playing a game, a guy was about to tackle him. He ran more than 200 meters at the minimum(halfway across the field, through the doorway, down the hallway, into a room, and BACK) to knock the russian guy. No one noticed, not even a flicker, everyone was in the EXACT same position as they were when Clark left.

Lets say the dude that was tackling him was moving at 1m/s, pretty reasonable. Since he moves so little that we cant tell the difference, lets say he moved 1 mm during all this time.

so in 1/1000th of a second, Clark was able to run over 200 meters and disarm a guy, with no apparent effort at all. Thats 200,000 meters/second, or over 200 km/sec, at the bare minimum.

Consiering that the AT-ATs had trouble hitting snowspeeders traveling at 1% of that speed, somehow I doubt they can hit supes.

And how did the people miss the sonic boom ?

Probably for the same reason a 'sonic weapon' was able to affect the Enterprise. The writers don't know much about physics

[Ghost Rider]

Heres a low end estimate of SM supes speed.

In that one episode where the russian guy that can control probability comes in. Clark was the quarterback playing a game, a guy was about to tackle him. He ran more than 200 meters at the minimum(halfway across the field, through the doorway, down the hallway, into a room, and BACK) to knock the russian guy. No one noticed, not even a flicker, everyone was in the EXACT same position as they were when Clark left.

Lets say the dude that was tackling him was moving at 1m/s, pretty reasonable. Since he moves so little that we cant tell the difference, lets say he moved 1 mm during all this time.

so in 1/1000th of a second, Clark was able to run over 200 meters and disarm a guy, with no apparent effort at all. Thats 200,000 meters/second, or over 200 km/sec, at the bare minimum.

Consiering that the AT-ATs had trouble hitting snowspeeders traveling at 1% of that speed, somehow I doubt they can hit supes.

And how did the people miss the sonic boom ?

Probably for the same reason a 'sonic weapon' was able to affect the Enterprise. The writers don't know much about physics

Sadly...out of the whole debate bit...I will give you that. The shit writers pull without a physic affect is fucking hilarious.

[Batman]

Oh there's the whole what happens with the atmosphere. And you could give a surmise of the Speed Force, though he attributes none of the other abilities at all.

Oh, I quite agree. It's just that gamesguy's estimates would have to be off by an incredibly large margin, and SM Clark never produced anything beyond a mild breeze when using superspeed (at least IIRC). Whatever it is, it shields his surroundings from what ought to be the effects of his fast movement. The Speed Force was merely a convenient in-universe (sort of) fall guy.

But beyond that...I have yet to see proof of Smaville Clark having magnitude order strength of ripping through feet of Durasteel.

Absolutely.

[Stravo]

If we don't have the speed force for Clark (which would be a nice way of explaining away these pesky physics issues for Superspeed) how about very limited time travel? He can somehow bring himself out of synch with localized time making him very fast and everyone else slow like we saw in that Star Trek Epidode Wink of an Eye? Yes...I like to reach.

[Praxis]

As for Superman at hoth....LOL...I want to hear someone tell me he would assrape the ground forces. Spacewise...he gets hurt. Groundpounding...sorry, That's not a battle. He survives easily MT level blasts.

He wouldn't have to. The shield protects from space. On ground, he moves so fast that he can take out the ground troops with almost zero effort (one punch will kill any trooper, he can superspeed around slaughtering people), and shouldn't have any problems with AT-ST's having watched Endor (two logs crushed the scout walker- in Talisman, the episode ABC played yesterday, Clark swung a Endor-sized log around and slammed another person with similar powers with enough of an impact to shatter the log. With that kind of stength, a body slam at full speed should take out any AT-ST).

AT-AT's would be the only problem. He'd probably find some kind of solution (say, pounding with his superstrength on the cockpit's window, or getting under the AT-AT's leg and unbalancing it, or trying to rip off the exit hatch if it's not too thick).

As for the ships in orbit, that's what the SHIELD was for, remember? All he has to do is take out the ground forces, and the shield can hold the Imperial fleet back long enough for the Rebels to evacuate without losing almost any material.

And while it'd be unnecessary, I imagine he could probably fly into the hangar of the Star Destroyer that got hit with the ion cannon and gut it from the inside.

But he'd have no chance of even slowing the Executer down. At best he'd be able to get the Rebels a clean evacuation and completely wipe out the ground forces.

But beyond that...I have yet to see proof of Smaville Clark having magnitude order strength of ripping through feet of Durasteel.

OFF, not through. He only has to tear the hatch off, not rip straight through it.

[Praxis]

Heres a low end estimate of SM supes speed.
In that one episode where the russian guy that can control probability comes in. Clark was the quarterback playing a game, a guy was about to tackle him. He ran more than 200 meters at the minimum(halfway across the field, through the doorway, down the hallway, into a room, and BACK) to knock the russian guy. No one noticed, not even a flicker, everyone was in the EXACT same position as they were when Clark left.
Lets say the dude that was tackling him was moving at 1m/s, pretty reasonable. Since he moves so little that we cant tell the difference, lets say he moved 1 mm during all this time.
so in 1/1000th of a second, Clark was able to run over 200 meters and disarm a guy, with no apparent effort at all. Thats 200,000 meters/second, or over 200 km/sec, at the bare minimum.
Consiering that the AT-ATs had trouble hitting snowspeeders traveling at 1% of that speed, somehow I doubt they can hit supes.

And how did the people miss the sonic boom ?

Screw the sonic boom. 200 kps? How about the bow wave of ionized air?
Nevertheless, unless gamesguy's estimates are of by 3 or more orders of magnitude, he has a point. Furthermore, as SM Clark going superspeed NEVER evidences the side effects that SHOULD come with it, him going hypersoinc without anybody noticing is moderately believable. Maybe he can pull a Flash and tap into the Speed Force to avoid having to face the consequences?
As for involving canon Superman, I'd rather we didn't. The guy's back up to moving planets around all by his lonesome, and quite simply ignores kiloton level firepower. Hoth would be a pushover.
@Clark: DKR is in no way shape or form canon.

It's not just Clark, either. In the new episode that aired last night on WB, Unsafe, Clark (under red kryptonite) took Alicia (an obsessive krypto-freak) in his arms and superspeeded halfway across Las Vegas.

You'd think the sudden stop would snap her neck, if not rip it clean off (and good riddance, too!).

From what we've seen of Clark's superspeed, it seems that around him time slows down and he moves at normal speed. Perhaps that explains why there are no affects on HIM, but the things around him should still be affected. *shrug* oh well.

[Ghost Rider]

As for Superman at hoth....LOL...I want to hear someone tell me he would assrape the ground forces. Spacewise...he gets hurt. Groundpounding...sorry, That's not a battle. He survives easily MT level blasts.

He wouldn't have to. The shield protects from space. On ground, he moves so fast that he can take out the ground troops with almost zero effort (one punch will kill any trooper, he can superspeed around slaughtering people), and shouldn't have any problems with AT-ST's having watched Endor (two logs crushed the scout walker- in Talisman, the episode ABC played yesterday, Clark swung a Endor-sized log around and slammed another person with similar powers with enough of an impact to shatter the log. With that kind of stength, a body slam at full speed should take out any AT-ST).

AT-AT's would be the only problem. He'd probably find some kind of solution (say, pounding with his superstrength on the cockpit's window, or getting under the AT-AT's leg and unbalancing it, or trying to rip off the exit hatch if it's not too thick).

As for the ships in orbit, that's what the SHIELD was for, remember? All he has to do is take out the ground forces, and the shield can hold the Imperial fleet back long enough for the Rebels to evacuate without losing almost any material.

And while it'd be unnecessary, I imagine he could probably fly into the hangar of the Star Destroyer that got hit with the ion cannon and gut it from the inside.

But he'd have no chance of even slowing the Executer down. At best he'd be able to get the Rebels a clean evacuation and completely wipe out the ground forces.

Then you read my second aprt a bit off and took my misinterpretated first part.

I said...he can survive MT blast, and it's not a battle.

Or I missed an "N'T" where Would is.

But beyond that...I have yet to see proof of Smaville Clark having magnitude order strength of ripping through feet of Durasteel.

OFF, not through. He only has to tear the hatch off, not rip straight through it.

You do understand what stress it takes to tear right?

The difference in pressure is across a larger filed then simply applying force into a small hole. The vectors alone aren't in your favor.

[Batman]

If we don't have the speed force for Clark (which would be a nice way of explaining away these pesky physics issues for Superspeed) how about very limited time travel? He can somehow bring himself out of synch with localized time making him very fast and everyone else slow like we saw in that Star Trek Epidode Wink of an Eye? Yes...I like to reach.

I'm not certain that would work. Either this affects a reasonably large area around him, which doesn't solve the problem- he's STILL moving hideously fast WRT the matter surrounding him. Same damn effect. OR it affects only the people in this area, in which case they wouldn't notice but clocks would (which actually works, at least for periods of only a few seconds). Or it affects BOTH people AND clocks, but not the air surrounding him etc. Which is getting mightily complicated. NOW let's introduce video cameras...

[Ghost Rider]

As for his Superspeed...we could give him a the TK application with a some extra unknown that would be harder to explain. The Speed Force is more, but he could have the Flash's biggest and best power of somehow his TK field allows for things in a small localized area to not get affected when he moves at superspeeds.

There is more to think about how the fuck Supes moves that way.

[Praxis]

Ahh I see, I did misread your post.

So we're in agreement that he would mop the floor with the ground forces, but have no chance against space forces (excepting maybe the disabled Star Destroyer, simply because it can't shoot him and has no shields )?

How do you think he would do vs TIEs, btw? TIE fighters generally shoot for larger targets. On the one hand, Clark is smaller than their normal targets. ON THE OTHER HAND, Corran Horn (remember, force powers + Rogue Squadron training, not an ordinary pilot) managed to shoot down an incoming proton torpedo. However, it took him several shots to hit it and it was moving in a straight line at him.

TIE's are unshielded (Clark would be completely ineffective vs an X-wing), so he might be able to damage it by slamming the viewport or the exposed fuel tank (according to those *shiver* Young Jedi Knights book, it's a small weak point on TIEs).

So the two questions are:
A) Can they hit Clark? Clark is about the size of a proton torp, and while they have a hard time hitting those, a good pilot can do it. So, does Clark or the Proton torp move faster?
2) Can they actually hurt him? TIE cannons are kiloton range, aren't they? The bombers are even more powerful, but Clark should be able to avoid missles better than laser cannons. So would kiloton-range lasers hurt him?

Clark wouldn't do anything against an ISD, but might he be useful covering escaping transports from TIE strafting runs?

[Ghost Rider]

TIEs...it would honestly depending on swarming. His strength will be his best assest, but the biggest problem he'd be good with X-Wings, not just duking out alone.

If the Bombers come out and swarm him he can get fucked because it they use anything even close to the Seismic mine, he gets whacked. Mostly I can see him basically handling a here there lone TIE versus the thought of multi squads of fighters.

His strength is enough with his speed to start killing them slowly but if they go after their objective and ignore him...he'll be very hard pressed to do much more.

[Batman]

A) Can they hit Clark? Clark is about the size of a proton torp,

Brrr.Come again? They manage to put six of those torps into the poitively tiny launchers of an X-Wing. Last time I checked, Clark was rather bulky for a human. Of which one fits into an X-Wing. Namely, in the cockpit.

and while they have a hard time hitting those, a good pilot can do it. So, does Clark or the Proton torp move faster?

Canon Clark, straight line, time to accellerate:Maybe Clark. Short time, having to maneuver? Protorp by a landslide,

2) Can they actually hurt him? TIE cannons are kiloton range, aren't they? The bombers are even more powerful, but Clark should be able to avoid missles better than laser cannons. So would kiloton-range lasers hurt him?

I claimed he is invulnerable to those, and GR granted him MT-to low GT durability several times. Do you have a reading comprehension problem?