Star Trek Ground Forces

[Techno_Union]

No, you are thiking of gigatons, not gigajoules. See my post above.

OK . That's slightly more encouraging. Those walkers are still pretty darn tough though. My guess would be the best bet would be to try what they did in ESB: trip them up. It's a good things the Imps build easily trip-able walkers instead of proper tanks. An ESB walker with treads instead... that is a nightmare not be contemplated .

The Empire does have actual tanks with treads; it's just that the ATATs are more prominent in the Empire.

[Ghost Rider]

Yep...and in EP3 we get to see one on the screen. They call it a Juggernaut Tank. Big wheeled monster.

[Lord Zentei]

No, you are thiking of gigatons, not gigajoules. See my post above.

OK . That's slightly more encouraging. Those walkers are still pretty darn tough though. My guess would be the best bet would be to try what they did in ESB: trip them up. It's a good things the Imps build easily trip-able walkers instead of proper tanks. An ESB walker with treads instead... that is a nightmare not be contemplated .

The Feds would have to reinvent cruise missiles. That could possibly be sufficient, if SW point defence fire can be avoided somehow (high speed or high numbers). Not exactly a cheap solution, but beats being overrun any day.

[Junghalli]

The Feds would have to reinvent cruise missiles. That could possibly be sufficient, if SW point defence fire can be avoided somehow (high speed or high numbers). Not exactly a cheap solution, but beats being overrun any day.

This estimate from the main SDN site (www.stardestroyer.net) Federation ship mounted phaser cannons have an effectiveness of 1-10 TW against dense armor. It doesn't seem unreasonable that they could manage a TJ equivalent (accounting for funky NDF effect) burst. If an Impie walker can take GJ's of energy then this should be enough to kill it. We know the Feds field fusion reactors up to 720 TW, so I would think they could probably have big stationary artillery cannons as or more powerful than their ship mounted phasers.
But nobody's taking out a walker with a panzerschrek, that's for sure.

[Ghost Rider]

The Feds would have to reinvent cruise missiles. That could possibly be sufficient, if SW point defence fire can be avoided somehow (high speed or high numbers). Not exactly a cheap solution, but beats being overrun any day.

This estimate from the main SDN site (www.stardestroyer.net) Federation ship mounted phaser cannons have an effectiveness of 1-10 TW against dense armor. It doesn't seem unreasonable that they could manage a TJ equivalent (accounting for funky NDF effect) burst. If an Impie walker can take GJ's of energy then this should be enough to kill it. We know the Feds field fusion reactors up to 720 TW, so I would think they could probably have big stationary artillery cannons as or more powerful than their ship mounted phasers.
But nobody's taking out a walker with a panzerschrek, that's for sure.

Ummm...that TJ weapon has what size of powersource attached to it?

That's like going, what if the US made a hand held portable 50MT Nukes.

It's ridiculous to even assume a culture can put on of their heavier shipborne weapons as a small ground platform, given the amount of energy these weapons consume with their other cousins. There are even other problems with the phasers.

Thus unless they make said cannon in ground borne but sitting in one place like a defensive turrent is the best that's going to happen.

[Lord Zentei]

This estimate from the main SDN site (www.stardestroyer.net) Federation ship mounted phaser cannons have an effectiveness of 1-10 TW against dense armor. It doesn't seem unreasonable that they could manage a TJ equivalent (accounting for funky NDF effect) burst. If an Impie walker can take GJ's of energy then this should be enough to kill it. We know the Feds field fusion reactors up to 720 TW, so I would think they could probably have big stationary artillery cannons as or more powerful than their ship mounted phasers.
But nobody's taking out a walker with a panzerschrek, that's for sure.

Ummm...that TJ weapon has what size of powersource attached to it?

That's like going, what if the US made a hand held portable 50MT Nukes.

It's ridiculous to even assume a culture can put on of their heavier shipborne weapons as a small ground platform, given the amount of energy these weapons consume with their other cousins. There are even other problems with the phasers.

Thus unless they make said cannon in ground borne but sitting in one place like a defensive turrent is the best that's going to happen.

Uh, I think that's what he had in mind, GR.

[Ghost Rider]

This estimate from the main SDN site (www.stardestroyer.net) Federation ship mounted phaser cannons have an effectiveness of 1-10 TW against dense armor. It doesn't seem unreasonable that they could manage a TJ equivalent (accounting for funky NDF effect) burst. If an Impie walker can take GJ's of energy then this should be enough to kill it. We know the Feds field fusion reactors up to 720 TW, so I would think they could probably have big stationary artillery cannons as or more powerful than their ship mounted phasers.
But nobody's taking out a walker with a panzerschrek, that's for sure.

Ummm...that TJ weapon has what size of powersource attached to it?

That's like going, what if the US made a hand held portable 50MT Nukes.

It's ridiculous to even assume a culture can put on of their heavier shipborne weapons as a small ground platform, given the amount of energy these weapons consume with their other cousins. There are even other problems with the phasers.

Thus unless they make said cannon in ground borne but sitting in one place like a defensive turrent is the best that's going to happen.

Uh, I think that's what he had in mind, GR.

While I correct myself...I offer even this as the proposal. Can this be pointed at a battlefield with any accuracy?

This falls under even the use of the Nuke. Big guns don't exactly fall under anything of accuracy especially against objects that aren't much bigger then a couple shuttlecraft.

And then this ignores everything for effect to hit AT-ATs, which then brings us to the problem of Federation ground Forces.

And before someone goes "They would sweep the field!!" Don't because that level of studpity is mind numbing.

So you have this ground bound phaser that's using Ship board engines to power it and it's standing on what and let's not forgets, this only assumes pure ground Forces, and all this would begin to hits is possibly the juggernaut tanks and AT-AT.

Says nothing about if the Empire decides to use Bio or any variety of weapon and their handheld weapons are easily MJ level...with E-WEBS being near GJ weapons(probably higher since they are ship threatening)

[Lord Zentei]

While I correct myself...I offer even this as the proposal. Can this be pointed at a battlefield with any accuracy?

This falls under even the use of the Nuke. Big guns don't exactly fall under anything of accuracy especially against objects that aren't much bigger then a couple shuttlecraft.

Depends on their accuracy in hitting shuttle size targets in space. The usefulnes of these defence turrets would depend on their line of fire, but presumably the defense installation's design would take that into account. In any case, I definately can't see these things hitting anything smaller than a walker.

And then this ignores everything for effect to hit AT-ATs, which then brings us to the problem of Federation ground Forces.

They'd get creamed without a more versatile force.

And before someone goes "They would sweep the field!!" Don't because that level of studpity is mind numbing.

Yup.

So you have this ground bound phaser that's using Ship board engines to power it and it's standing on what and let's not forgets, this only assumes pure ground Forces, and all this would begin to hits is possibly the juggernaut tanks and AT-AT.

Yup.

Says nothing about if the Empire decides to use Bio or any variety of weapon and their handheld weapons are easily MJ level...with E-WEBS being near GJ weapons(probably higher since they are ship threatening)

Not to mention that these defense turrets are pure "what ifs": they don't exist in Trek canon.

[Ghost Rider]

Says nothing about if the Empire decides to use Bio or any variety of weapon and their handheld weapons are easily MJ level...with E-WEBS being near GJ weapons(probably higher since they are ship threatening)

Not to mention that these defense turrets are pure "what ifs": they don't exist in Trek canon.

Which is why I'm entertaining the thought.

Canon wise...Trek has best is a mortar and something that is held like a launcher. Not exactly good in any terms

[Lord Zentei]

Says nothing about if the Empire decides to use Bio or any variety of weapon and their handheld weapons are easily MJ level...with E-WEBS being near GJ weapons(probably higher since they are ship threatening)

Not to mention that these defense turrets are pure "what ifs": they don't exist in Trek canon.

Which is why I'm entertaining the thought.

Canon wise...Trek has best is a mortar and something that is held like a launcher. Not exactly good in any terms

Yeah. It would be nice to see a breakdown on the stuff in the games though. Not that it is likely to make a difference, but we'd see which units the GE would have to deploy and such.

[Lord Revan]

BTW do AT-AT resist fire from the guns of starfighter (about 1 kt)

[brianeyci]

We know the Feds have detpacks, and if a Bajoran earring can have a 20 m blast radius, the detpacks which are much larger should have at least this. But detpacks are not standard redshirt gear, and were probably specifically crafted for that episode. Anyway, with replicators and a pattern for detpacks (unless they contain some exotic materials), they should be able to replicate a lot of them.

And before someone jumps on me and says they never use these detpacks, well we haven't seen them use ground vehicles from video games either, it is just a possibility.

Brian

[Crazedwraith]

BTW do AT-AT resist fire from the guns of starfighter (about 1 kt)

No, X-Wing can slag T-ATs in a couple of strafing runs (ref: Isard's Revenge)

[brianeyci]

Oh and for the accuracy and array thing... we know that Federation archaeological outposts are defended by two phaser arrays and perhaps photon torpedoes. Unless the arrays are pointed to space (a strong possibility), these could be used against ground targets. Even if they are, unless the phasers are ball/turret mounted, an "array" strongly hints to something like a Galaxy-Class phaser strip rather than a fixed ball/turrent mounted weapon which is TOS. And photon torpedoes can be used as battlefield artillery.

Of course, all of these fixed defenses would be destroyed from orbit long before ground forces advanced. The Feds best bet is to plant shitloads of detpacks everywhere like mines, and engage in street-to-street house-to-house fighting (assuming the Imps don't bust the city from orbit, but why should they, urban fighting is what stormies are good at).

But in the end it doesn't matter. Only the Marquis have shown any kind of balls at all, and Picard's "They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back" just shows that the Feds don't have balls. Borg drones should easily be dispatched by hand-to-hand fighting with things like swords, and we know that Federation troops are issued knives, and they could always replicate one of those Klingon knives like Worf used to slash the drone. But the Feds don't want to get dirty, so they "fall back". Pussies.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Hell, they should be even able to replicate a "Phase Pistol" of a couple centuries earlier, which can be overloaded to fire 10 megajoules of energy, enough to go through a Borg drone's shields. But they don't, and we have to accept that the Feds are retards.

Oh, why do writers have to ignore continuity. Fuck.

Brian

[NecronLord]

They can shrug of GJ worth of energy. You had better show such laucher can do such or you're just blithering.

They're gonna have to start buying weapons from the Breen.

[Ghost Rider]

They can shrug of GJ worth of energy. You had better show such laucher can do such or you're just blithering.

They're gonna have to start buying weapons from the Breen.

LMAO...yeah.

[brianeyci]

They're gonna have to start buying weapons from the Breen.

Or replicating them. TR-116 is based on Breen Disruptor Rifle chassis. Breen Disruptor Rifle also proves that a powered up NDF effect can be effective against armor (I believe six to fifteen inches they said). We know this already from phasers against ship hulls, but what we didn't know is whether something handheld could generate the energy required to cut through armor with a phaser. Unless Breen power generation on their disruptor rifles is far more advanced than the Federation, there's no reason to suppose that the Federation could not mass produce such weapons.

Federation phasers are probably powered down so much so they output the minimal amount of NDF particles necessary to kill a man. This would explain why we see so little phazorizations.

The Breen Disruptor Rifle though is exactly what a mercenary would use, something way overpowered (for Trek at least since nobody wears armor anyway), sort of how Han carries a Heavy Blaster Pistol which is comparable to Stormtrooper blasters (based on Han being able to shoot through Stormie armor with it).

Not that it matters. Like DW mentioned, it took the Dominion War for the Feds to introduce an assault rifle. What I could see though is the gurellia war using Breen Disruptor Rifles or TR-116's, although by then the Federation would have been defeated.

Brian

[Junghalli]

While I correct myself...I offer even this as the proposal. Can this be pointed at a battlefield with any accuracy?

I would think that it's accuracy can't be any worse than a Fed ship phaser. Besides, those walkers may be tough but they aint exactly fast-moving targets . They shouldn't be that hard to hit.

And then this ignores everything for effect to hit AT-ATs, which then brings us to the problem of Federation ground Forces.

Big heavy artillery phasers would be a reasonable precaution against the ground forces of other Trek powers like the Dominion, Romulans etc. IMO. As for effect, I didn't get the impression that Impie walkers need nuclear level detonations to take them out. My point about ground mounted ship phasers was that the Feds could easily build stationary ground artillery that could take out walkers.

Not to mention that these defense turrets are pure "what ifs": they don't exist in Trek canon.

If we go by Trek cannon the Federation's army is entirely composed of spare naval personel and marines and their heaviest weapon is a mortar . If that was actually the case they should have been conquered long ago.

Oh and for the accuracy and array thing... we know that Federation archaeological outposts are defended by two phaser arrays and perhaps photon torpedoes.

But those are quite likely planetary defense systems designed to protect against enemy ships. They may not be able to hit targets on the ground (and even if they could they might be so powerful they'd be just as dangerous to the operators as the targets-remember a photon torp is equivalent to a 50 megaton bomb).

[Ghost Rider]

While I correct myself...I offer even this as the proposal. Can this be pointed at a battlefield with any accuracy?

I would think that it's accuracy can't be any worse than a Fed ship phaser. Besides, those walkers may be tough but they aint exactly fast-moving targets . They shouldn't be that hard to hit.

Given their accuracy with Ships of hundreds of meters, I would contend they would be rather hard for Federation personnel to hit with such a large weapon.

And then this ignores everything for effect to hit AT-ATs, which then brings us to the problem of Federation ground Forces.

Big heavy artillery phasers would be a reasonable precaution against the ground forces of other Trek powers like the Dominion, Romulans etc. IMO. As for effect, I didn't get the impression that Impie walkers need nuclear level detonations to take them out. My point about ground mounted ship phasers was that the Feds could easily build stationary ground artillery that could take out walkers.

Given they can take KT level hits...they do need a rather small nuke to destroy.

And the problem is still accuracy and hitting said targets.

Not to mention that these defense turrets are pure "what ifs": they don't exist in Trek canon.

If we go by Trek cannon the Federation's army is entirely composed of spare naval personel and marines and their heaviest weapon is a mortar . If that was actually the case they should have been conquered long ago.

Red Herring, given they like their counterparts have shown the ability not to be countered.

So they have some way of maintaining dominacne on the battlefield within THEIR universe. Means nothing when comparing to others.

[Lord Revan]

BTW do AT-AT resist fire from the guns of starfighter (about 1 kt)

No, X-Wing can slag T-ATs in a couple of strafing runs (ref: Isard's Revenge)

so AT-AT can't resist mid kt range forepower (X-wing has four guns and probaly shot more one per gun on one run (Also the 1 kt number is for the Delta-7 interceptor so X-wing's gun may have a higher yield)). That pretty vague, but can considered an upper limit (if we could know just how many shot's were used and what is firepower of one shot we'd get better limit for AT-AT resistance).

[Junghalli]

But in the end it doesn't matter. Only the Marquis have shown any kind of balls at all, and Picard's "They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back" just shows that the Feds don't have balls. Borg drones should easily be dispatched by hand-to-hand fighting with things like swords, and we know that Federation troops are issued knives, and they could always replicate one of those Klingon knives like Worf used to slash the drone. But the Feds don't want to get dirty, so they "fall back". Pussies.
Brian

Yeah, but that might have been the real TNG Borg instead of the wussified FC/Voyager Borg. I have a theory that at some point between TNG and VOY the Borg assimilated a vast number of utter morons, with devastating effects to the collective. It was probably all those Fed planets that Picard mentioned in the above . The Borg assimilated the Fed's stupidity and they may never recover .
Guess the Borg found out too late that you really are what you assimilate .

[Darth Wong]

They're gonna have to start buying weapons from the Breen.

Or replicating them. TR-116 is based on Breen Disruptor Rifle chassis. Breen Disruptor Rifle also proves that a powered up NDF effect can be effective against armor (I believe six to fifteen inches they said). We know this already from phasers against ship hulls, but what we didn't know is whether something handheld could generate the energy required to cut through armor with a phaser. Unless Breen power generation on their disruptor rifles is far more advanced than the Federation, there's no reason to suppose that the Federation could not mass produce such weapons.

Federation phasers are probably powered down so much so they output the minimal amount of NDF particles necessary to kill a man. This would explain why we see so little phazorizations.

The Breen Disruptor Rifle though is exactly what a mercenary would use, something way overpowered (for Trek at least since nobody wears armor anyway), sort of how Han carries a Heavy Blaster Pistol which is comparable to Stormtrooper blasters (based on Han being able to shoot through Stormie armor with it).

Not that it matters. Like DW mentioned, it took the Dominion War for the Feds to introduce an assault rifle. What I could see though is the gurellia war using Breen Disruptor Rifles or TR-116's, although by then the Federation would have been defeated.

Brian

Overpowered weapons are not necessarily better; for any fixed amount of battery storage, you must trade off between power and ammunition. The more energy you expend per shot, the fewer shots you can fire.

[NecronLord]

Err. No. Attacking drones with knives will just get you beamed up into the cube in orbit and placed in a small room where they can pacify you by beaming the knife away, then send in two drones to jab you. This was likely the assimiliation MO seen in Dark Frontier.

EDIT: While you can repel bording actions and so on, assaulting a planet in the process of assimilation with what are essentially, gold shirted pikemen would be suicidal.

[Lord Revan]

Well the biggest problem (IIRC) we never seen the Federation use any close air support, but do know that both the rebels and the Empire use CAS, so fixed weapons battery is a bad choice and I don't remember Feds ever having any powerfull mobile weapon platforms (in games or in canon).