Stalemate Strategy for the Feds

[Tommy J]

And as for the SD-torn-apart reference, that was the Dark Empire comics (the only comics considered part of the continuity).

Actually, that's not true. The only Dark Horse SW comics not considered part of official continuity are the "Tales" short stories and the "Infinities" titles.

Hell, I think most of the Marvel comics are still considered official.

I'm glad it isn't actually because it seems ridilicous that a extra sensory power would allow even a powerful humanoid to rip apart a ship. We accept in ST with the Q etc. that such beings are not 'humans' and more God like. However in SW they're projected as gifted but do not have unlimited power.

Thus the force is a special gift that some possess and most others do not but not infiniately powerful.

[Mad]

I was thinking last night of a possible scenario after running into Insurrection while channel surfing yesterday. While it's obvious that the Federation is out numbered 1 million to 1 in any combat situation what if they were to try the following to get the Empire to stand down in a conflict:

Stand down? From what? To prevent expendables from being killed? You tell an Emperor that he can't have something, and he'll send more expendables out to die just to make sure that you're wrong. Remember, Emperor Palpatine isn't a very nice man.

Using Mike's Fanfic as the basis for discussion:

It's been a while, so I don't remember all the details of Conquest.

*A team from Section 31 as well as a garrison mans a cloaked ship and heads for the wormhole and Courscant after identifying the potential threat and before the Romulan action.

What do you mean by "potential threat"? It's completely out of character for the Federation to go and attack the leadership of every "potential threat" out there. They like to try peace talks first.

Further, how do they find Coruscant?

*Entering Empire space they proceed cloaked to Courscant

How long does this take? You said you want to assume it's a day away. Apparently, though, the wormhole in Conquest is on the outer rim. By the time the task force makes it to Coruscant, the Empire has been in control of Federation space for several decades.

*Several hundred ST Officers and Agents from Section 31 while cloaked transport to the planet and place cloaked mines at strategic command and control structures and large spcial weapons at key locations throughout the planet.

So they just transport through Coruscant's double shields, eh? And they magically know where all the "key locations" are without making contact with anyone? How do you know these cloaks won't be picked up by various sensors in the more secure locations? Personal cloaks can't fool pressure pads, for example.

*They enter the Imperial Senate cloaked and locate the Emperor's Throne room while simulateneously entering the Senate while in session

The one that was disbanded, right?

*About 50 Officers decloak while armed taking the Emperor hostage and negating his extra powers in sheer numbers.

He's not afraid of death. He has clone bodies ready for him to take over should his body die. He'd probably just play along, though, while using the Force to implant ideas into the Feds' minds. (He mind-controlled the Imperial Navy, as per the RotJ novelization and Heir to the Empire. Further, the Executor's sister-ship, Lusankya, was buried on Coruscant without anyone remembering it, likely by wiping the event from the minds of everyone that had seen it.) Meanwhile, the Imperial forces are preparing a way to free the Emperor (they don't know he has backup plans, so they'll be willing to die to retrieve him).

*200-300 Officers decloak in the Senate at the same time and take control of the building.

If they do exist at this time (which would put this before ANH, and thus diverge from Conquest), then they were gonna be dissolved anyway...

*A communication is sent to Empire forces on the otherside of the wormhole demanding that the Empire stand-down and cease and desist w/o any hositatlities against any Federation planet or interest.

The reply will be something along the lines of saying "Okay" then opening fire on several Federation planets of interest, then saying "Leave Coruscant, with the Emperor alive, or you won't have anyone to come home to." The Imperial in charge of the task force will have a back-up plan, as well: if the Emperor dies, he takes control of this new territory and becomes Emperor himself.

Congratulations, you just gave him more incentive to bully the Federation around.

*In doing so, they demonstrate their resolve by blowing up several civilian areas of Courscant and key command and control locations.

The Imperial reply will be much the same, just on several different planets. This is out of character for the Federation, however.

*The Emperor is held hostage awaiting and Imperial response in the Alpha Quadrant.

And everything proceeds exactly as he has forseen... (There's plenty of time to meditate in those comfortable quarters the Feds call a brig.) his task force in the Alpha Quadrant now has even more incentive to finish the conquest quickly.

While this scenario wouldn't necessarily win the war it may be an effective enough demonstration to the Empire that the Alpha Quadrant isn't worth the trouble.

You managed to speed up the Imperial conquest of the Federation...

[Spanky The Dolphin]

And as for the SD-torn-apart reference, that was the Dark Empire comics (the only comics considered part of the continuity).

Actually, that's not true. The only Dark Horse SW comics not considered part of official continuity are the "Tales" short stories and the "Infinities" titles.

Hell, I think most of the Marvel comics are still considered official.

I'm glad it isn't actually...

Did you even read what I said? I said that they WERE official.

[Tommy J]

Actually, that's not true. The only Dark Horse SW comics not considered part of official continuity are the "Tales" short stories and the "Infinities" titles.

Hell, I think most of the Marvel comics are still considered official.

I'm glad it isn't actually...

Did you even read what I said? I said that they WERE official.

Having never read the comics I assumed that he was pulling the example out of Tales or infinities which you said are not part of continunity. My apologies for misunderstanding.

[Tommy J]

What do you mean by "potential threat"? It's completely out of character for the Federation to go and attack the leadership of every "potential threat" out there. They like to try peace talks first.

At the beginning of this scenario I stated that it would be Federation garrison plus members of Section 31 acting completely differently than anything we've seen or heard from in the series.

Further, how do they find Coruscant?

To make this scenario plausable, I moved the worm hole within 1-days travelling distance for the Fed @ Warp 9 to Courscant on the Empire's side.

A planet with probably a trillion people all engaging in intersellar flight around it, probably wouldn't be hard to find based on the above assumption.

So they just transport through Coruscant's double shields, eh? And they magically know where all the "key locations" are without making contact with anyone? How do you know these cloaks won't be picked up by various sensors in the more secure locations? Personal cloaks can't fool pressure pads, for example.

Already stated that they'd presumably time their transports while cloaked as traffic enters and leaves the atmosphere of the planet.

The one that was disbanded, right?

I was under the impression that some sort of token governing body still convened on the planet.

He's not afraid of death. He has clone bodies ready for him to take over should his body die. He'd probably just play along, though, while using the Force to implant ideas into the Feds' minds. (He mind-controlled the Imperial Navy, as per the RotJ novelization and Heir to the Empire. Further, the Executor's sister-ship, Lusankya, was buried on Coruscant without anyone remembering it, likely by wiping the event from the minds of everyone that had seen it.) Meanwhile, the Imperial forces are preparing a way to free the Emperor (they don't know he has backup plans, so they'll be willing to die to retrieve him).

Your quoting a lot of the books/comics and other, while I'm using only the movies and Mike's fanfic for this conversation.

The reply will be something along the lines of saying "Okay" then opening fire on several Federation planets of interest, then saying "Leave Coruscant, with the Emperor alive, or you won't have anyone to come home to." The Imperial in charge of the task force will have a back-up plan, as well: if the Emperor dies, he takes control of this new territory and becomes Emperor himself.

Perhaps, and we have a Vice President who could do similar. I was just saying that it might be plausable that they'd stand down to save his life.

The Imperial reply will be much the same, just on several different planets. This is out of character for the Federation, however.

Already addressed this.



----------------------------

Et Al

*If we're going to give the Emperor God like powers e.g. the ability to destroy ships etc. then everyone is right the argument is pointless. He might as well be fighting the Q.

*For the point of this conversation and discussion I was focusing on the Fanfic as well as the movies. In the movies he's potrayed as a powerful controller of the Force....someone that can see in the future (sometimes)....can minipulate behavior.....can fool people....can move objects....can spew lightening from his fingers. However it was never presented as though he had unlimited power.

If we insist on making the assertion that he has the power to minipulate the minds of 100's of people at once even while unaware of their presence, Destory ships with a thought etc. than this conversation is pointless.

BTW if the above was true, the Rebellion as potrayed in Episodes 4,5,6 would have been impossible.

[Mad]

At the beginning of this scenario I stated that it would be Federation garrison plus members of Section 31 acting completely differently than anything we've seen or heard from in the series.

But that's not really plausable. The attitude/ideology of the Federation is as much a part of Star Trek as the technology is. Change either, and it's not really Star Trek going against Star Wars; it's Fan Trek.

To make this scenario plausable, I moved the worm hole within 1-days travelling distance for the Fed @ Warp 9 to Courscant on the Empire's side.

So if it's anywhere else, then the Feds are screwed. Considering the randomness of the wormhole, chances are very, very good that the Federation is screwed. If things don't line up just right for them, the plan falls apart.

A planet with probably a trillion people all engaging in intersellar flight around it, probably wouldn't be hard to find based on the above assumption.

What makes you think Coruscant will be the only one like that they will see? Further, why would the highest traffic be the safe assumption? There are American cities that are much more crowded than the Washington D.C. area.

Already stated that they'd presumably time their transports while cloaked as traffic enters and leaves the atmosphere of the planet.

You still ignored the point about trying to plant the bombs in high-security areas where there'd be various security methods in use.

I was under the impression that some sort of token governing body still convened on the planet.

Where is this from?

Your quoting a lot of the books/comics and other, while I'm using only the movies and Mike's fanfic for this conversation.

Oh, so let's not only change the Federation's mindset and make the wormhole appear in the convenient place for them, let's also take away known capabilities of the Emperor.

I'm not sure where the clone bodies thing was from, that might be comics. But everything else is from the books. The Emperor's mind-control is an established capability across several books, including the Return of the Jedi novelization.

Perhaps, and we have a Vice President who could do similar. I was just saying that it might be plausable that they'd stand down to save his life.

It's very, very doubtful. Like I said, if the Federation tried the stunt you describe, they will be conquered even more quickly. They'd just doom themselves. You haven't addressed that yet...

If we insist on making the assertion that he has the power to minipulate the minds of 100's of people at once even while unaware of their presence,

For the example I gave of the Lusankya, he was certainly prepared and knew of their presence. Much the same way he would be aware of the Federation's presence after he's captured by your plan. You'll notice I mentioned him biding his time in his cell, meditating. You didn't address that, either.

[Tommy J]

But that's not really plausable. The attitude/ideology of the Federation is as much a part of Star Trek as the technology is. Change either, and it's not really Star Trek going against Star Wars; it's Fan Trek.

Quasi Fan Trek. In my scenario I make a more evil and determined Section 31 who convinces other SF Officers that they must abandon every single one of their princples.

So if it's anywhere else, then the Feds are screwed. Considering the randomness of the wormhole, chances are very, very good that the Federation is screwed. If things don't line up just right for them, the plan falls apart.

Actually in Mike's fanfic, the Empire has stablized the worm hole on both ends. I'm just moving the Empire side closer to Courscant.

What makes you think Coruscant will be the only one like that they will see? Further, why would the highest traffic be the safe assumption? There are American cities that are much more crowded than the Washington D.C. area.

True, but a planet that is 100% city suffice to say has a lot of intersteller traffic. It's implied but not stated that it's the only one as such in the movies. Thus, if the Feds are looking for the most populated planet, it would be a logical assumption as such.

To use your example, if radar sweeps covered the US and our capital was in New York City, it would be easy to see the most likely location of the seat of power.

You still ignored the point about trying to plant the bombs in high-security areas where there'd be various security methods in use.

I'm assuming that because the Empire would be unfamiliar with personal cloaking technology as seen in ST Insurrection they wouldn't be scanning for it. Thus, the Fed's who beamed to the planet would plant explosives at key facilities obfiscating existing security.

The most apt anology would be if every nation was unfamiliar with Stealth technology of our planes, they wouldn't be looking for the clues that now are common knowledge.

Where is this from?

Just from memeory of Mike's fanfic, I could be wrong however.

Oh, so let's not only change the Federation's mindset and make the wormhole appear in the convenient place for them, let's also take away known capabilities of the Emperor.

See earlier post of giving the Emperor God like powers, which does make the conversation pointless. However, as stated, I walked out of ROTJ with the impression that he is knowledgeable and has a lot of power with the force, but not the ability to destory capital ships with a thought.

Well, to even have this conversation we have to move the worm hole.

I'm not sure where the clone bodies thing was from, that might be comics. But everything else is from the books. The Emperor's mind-control is an established capability across several books, including the Return of the Jedi novelization.

Don't know where the clones came from either.

It's very, very doubtful. Like I said, if the Federation tried the stunt you describe, they will be conquered even more quickly. They'd just doom themselves. You haven't addressed that yet...

As stated earlier in the thread, the whole hypothesis is based upon a group of Feddie's taking End Game Tactics, similar to Michaevillian approaches.

They'd be 'rolling the dice' in the hope that the Empire wouldn't want to go through the trouble after it's home world was attacked and their leader abducted.

It should be noted that Osama Bin Laden took a similar gamble. His gamble was that the American public so shaken after 9/11 would demand that the US pull out of the Middle East and become more isolationist. While he had no hope obviously of conquering us, the terrorism has a larger effect on the general population in achieving a specific agenda.

For the example I gave of the Lusankya, he was certainly prepared and knew of their presence. Much the same way he would be aware of the Federation's presence after he's captured by your plan. You'll notice I mentioned him biding his time in his cell, meditating. You didn't address that, either.

see above. Last time I'll say this, if you give the Emperor God like powers, than the conversation is over. I didn't get that impression however based on the movies.

[The Cleric]

They'd be 'rolling the dice' in the hope that the Empire wouldn't want to go through the trouble after it's home world was attacked and their leader abducted.

Let me tell you how that die WILL land. It will land on the "Imperial's shrug and BDZ the Alpha Quadrant."

[Spanky The Dolphin]

The Emperor's clones come from Dark Empire.

Concerning the "wouldn't be looking for cloaking" stuff, you're ignorent of the fact that standard Imperial sensors would be able to detect things that Federation cloaks don't mask.

[Tommy J]

The Emperor's clones come from Dark Empire.

Concerning the "wouldn't be looking for cloaking" stuff, you're ignorent of the fact that standard Imperial sensors would be able to detect things that Federation cloaks don't mask.

Based on? This is all conjecture either way. You say they'd be able to detect them and I say they wouldn't because of unfamilarity.

Put differently, If Osama bin Laden got cosmetic surgery over the past year to appear as an average causian American and was smuggled into Canada somehow. At the same time he secured a vile of Anthrax.

He'd cross the border at the Detroit/Windor bridge the most porus of our two nations borders. He'd then proceed to New York and open the vile of Anthrax on the at times square this would be the least likely of scenarios and probably one US law enforcement was suspecting based on the established pattern and currently suspected location, the mountains of Afghanastan.

ergo.

If the Federation attacked their home world w/o provacation using End Game tactics that the Empire doesn't suspect they will do since they have intelligence info from the Ferengi on the Fed according to Mike's fan fic, this approach would be completely inplausable and would take them by suprise.

[Techno_Union]

I know someone else brought up the point about the Emperor not being afraid to die, and the fact that he has clones... couldn't he just (if he doesn't kill the would be assasins) kill himself, go to Byss, take a new body, then come back? I mean, it's not like the rest of the Empire has to know that he just died and took another body, he could cover it all up and say he escaped some how.

In anycase, I agree with most of the others when they say that this will provoke an even harsher response in the AQ. ie. bye bye all Fed/allied worlds.

BTW, Tommy, you CAN'T throw out the Emperor's abilities unless you want to throw out SW canon.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I like how you use your ignorance as a tactic to hand-wave away everything, particularly when it conflicts with your scenerio.

[Techno_Union]

If the Federation attacked their home world w/o provacation using End Game tactics that the Empire doesn't suspect they will do since they have intelligence info from the Ferengi on the Fed according to Mike's fan fic, this approach would be completely inplausable and would take them by suprise.

While you use Mike's fanfic for a lot of things, you seem to still base things out of the fanfic when you've changed an important aspect of the overall situation, the wormhole is NOT a days trip away for the Feds. In this scenario, if you want to assume the Empire has intel on the Feds, than it would be likely that they would know that their capital is a days hop away from the wormhole, ie. they'll actually be more critical towards security. So while they might not believe the Feds would attack, they would more than likely be ready if the Feds attacked...

Question to anyone: Since wormholes and all is theoretical at best... do we know if they actually grow larger then go smaller (ie. DS9 style) when a ship travels through? If they do, then couldn't we safely assume that if by some chance the Empire doesn't detect the cloaks via CGT, that they will at the very least see the wormhole gorwing and shrinking?

[Tommy J]

BTW, Tommy, you CAN'T throw out the Emperor's abilities unless you want to throw out SW canon.

If that's true than he's a virtual God in terms of his power on almost the same of the Q. The conversation is pointless then. Because God like figures could then most likely see this would happen in advance and wipe the invading force to Coursant out with a wave of his hand.

I just walked out of RTOJ with a different impression, have not read any of the novels, nor any of the comics.

For the purpose of this conversation moving forward could we assume that he's powerful with the force but not virtually omnipotent?

If not, then it's pointless to continue.

[Tommy J]

I like how you use your ignorance as a tactic to hand-wave away everything, particularly when it conflicts with your scenerio.

I don't, I'd concede they lose, game over.

[Tommy J]

While you use Mike's fanfic for a lot of things, you seem to still base things out of the fanfic when you've changed an important aspect of the overall situation, the wormhole is NOT a days trip away for the Feds. In this scenario, if you want to assume the Empire has intel on the Feds, than it would be likely that they would know that their capital is a days hop away from the wormhole, ie. they'll actually be more critical towards security. So while they might not believe the Feds would attack, they would more than likely be ready if the Feds attacked...

If I don't assume the wormhole is closer than the scenario is pointless.

Regarding the second part, this would be like the US being afraid of a conquring Zulu tribe that we threatened to invade and adding extra security.

[Crayz9000]

You know, if we're using the Conquest Empire, then the Emperor is not Palpatine. Palpatine is dead; the current Emperor is Anakin Solo, shocking as that may be.

[Techno_Union]

BTW, Tommy, you CAN'T throw out the Emperor's abilities unless you want to throw out SW canon.

If that's true than he's a virtual God in terms of his power on almost the same of the Q. The conversation is pointless then. Because God like figures could then most likely see this would happen in advance and wipe the invading force to Coursant out with a wave of his hand.

Blah blah blah. Quit whining because things aren't going your way. It's canon what he can do. He CAN die, there's nothing immortal about him unless you take the most optimistic view of him, ie. he dies, takes a new body, and continues living forever... but there are always bad things that happen (see Empire's End). So your whining about his powers are irrelevant.

I just walked out of RTOJ with a different impression, have not read any of the novels, nor any of the comics.

That's great, but that doesn't mean you can ignore that which you have not read.

For the purpose of this conversation moving forward could we assume that he's powerful with the force but not virtually omnipotent?

Fine... even though his powers already ARE virtually not omnipotent.

[Techno_Union]

If I don't assume the wormhole is closer than the scenario is pointless.

*sigh* Apparently you didn't understand a single word I said... I'm not attacking where the wormhole is, I'm attacking the point of whether or not they'd be ready for an attack.

Regarding the second part, this would be like the US being afraid of a conquring Zulu tribe that we threatened to invade and adding extra security.

Did I or anyone else say that the Empire was afraid of the Feds? I said that they, knowing their capital is close to a wormhole their enemy could possibly (under your scenario) come out of, then yes, they would likey be READY for an assault, not afraid of one, not adding extra ships or whatnot, merely READY. I shall reiterate, it is HIGHLY unlikely the Empire would leave the wormhole itself undefended (bam, there are some ships and stations already that are READY), and with the hundreds to thousands of ships and stations already at Coruscant, they too would likely be READY for an assault, even if it is remote.

If I recall correctly (I heard this somewhere on the board), the US actually has plans in case Canada attacks us (I think it was Canada). My point? It's that the Empire would likely be ready for an assault, EVEN IF they don't think one would actually happen.

Have I made myself clear?

[Tommy J]

[ Blah blah blah. Quit whining because things aren't going your way. It's canon what he can do. He CAN die, there's nothing immortal about him unless you take the most optimistic view of him, ie. he dies, takes a new body, and continues living forever... but there are always bad things that happen (see Empire's End). So your whining about his powers are irrelevant.

Not 'whining'. Unlike a typical Fanboy Trek boy, I'm not arguing, strength, numerical superority, speed and so on.

I'm just suggesting that altering the scenario slightly and using a couple of the 'toys' unique to Trek, personal cloaking devices, cloaking devices, and transporters coupled with a tactics change it MIGHT create a stalemate.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

And that's nothing new.

[Tommy J]

Did I or anyone else say that the Empire was afraid of the Feds? I said that they, knowing their capital is close to a wormhole their enemy could possibly (under your scenario) come out of, then yes, they would likey be READY for an assault, not afraid of one, not adding extra ships or whatnot, merely READY. I shall reiterate, it is HIGHLY unlikely the Empire would leave the wormhole itself undefended (bam, there are some ships and stations already that are READY), and with the hundreds to thousands of ships and stations already at Coruscant, they too would likely be READY for an assault, even if it is remote.

So, for the purpose of bottomlining this conversation you believe that the Fed's:

1. Cloaking technology would provide them zero edge despite that the Empire beefed up security at the mouth of the worm hole

2. Peronsal cloaking technology would prove them zero-edge despite that it is unique to the Fed

3. A dramatic change in tactics by the Federation e.g. the willingness to be ruthless despite a long history of doing otherwise wouldn't take anyone by suprise?

4. Transporters, unique to the Fed coupled with personal cloaking would provide zero edge

I say no. But one has to take a leap that the cloaking is undectable by the Empire. If you assume that the Empire can detect them through cloaks, game over.

If I recall correctly (I heard this somewhere on the board), the US actually has plans in case Canada attacks us (I think it was Canada). My point? It's that the Empire would likely be ready for an assault, EVEN IF they don't think one would actually happen.

Good example and if Canada sent over legions of terrorists which would be completely uncharactieric for them to do on a mission to place Anthrax in every major subway system in the US, it would take us by suprise.

Have I made myself clear?

Perfectly

[Praxis]

And as for the SD-torn-apart reference, that was the Dark Empire comics (the only comics considered part of the continuity).

Actually, that's not true. The only Dark Horse SW comics not considered part of official continuity are the "Tales" short stories and the "Infinities" titles.

Hell, I think most of the Marvel comics are still considered official.

I'm glad it isn't actually because it seems ridilicous that a extra sensory power would allow even a powerful humanoid to rip apart a ship. We accept in ST with the Q etc. that such beings are not 'humans' and more God like. However in SW they're projected as gifted but do not have unlimited power.

Thus the force is a special gift that some possess and most others do not but not infiniately powerful.

He said that it IS canon, not isn't.

[Batman]

So, for the purpose of bottomlining this conversation you believe that the Fed's:
1. Cloaking technology would provide them zero edge despite that the Empire beefed up security at the mouth of the worm hole

Er, that's one of the reasons WHY it wouldn't. Wars sensors ca detect a shitload more things than Trek ones, and we KNOW Trek cloaks don't cover everything: High speed Warp signatures, engine exhaust, I dimly recall gravitic something-or-others being detectable (not exactly the most convincing of points I admit)

2. Peronsal cloaking technology would prove them zero-edge despite that it is unique to the Fed

Helllo? Holoshroud anybody? Which, you know, doesn't require a rather massive central facility.

3. A dramatic change in tactics by the Federation e.g. the willingness to be ruthless despite a long history of doing otherwise wouldn't take anyone by suprise?

As the Imps don't know that history, no.

4. Transporters, unique to the Fed coupled with personal cloaking would provide zero edge

Given that transporters are disrupted by just about everything?

I say no. But one has to take a leap that the cloaking is undectable by the Empire. If you assume that the Empire can detect them through cloaks, game over.

As that cloaking technology is beatable even by AQ sensors with a bit of luck, and MUST be beatable thanks to the laws of physics...

[Praxis]

Here's something that completely screws your plan up royally.

You are still assuming they'd wait for a gap in the planetary shield to transport.

Coruscant has TWO LAYERS of shields divided into little sections, and they never drop two sections directly over one another at the same time. They open a hole in the top layer, let a ship through, CLOSE IT, then open a whole in the bottom layer, let the ship through, and close it, then reopen the top.

So unless the cloaked Fed ship tries to wedge itself between the two shields (THUS lighting itself up, as seen in TNG, cloaked ships are made visible in atmosphere)...there's no way to transport.

And even a perfect cloak is vulnerable to CGT sensors- they detect the minutest of gravitic fluctuations. We know from the episode where Ro and LaForge were phase-cloaked that phase cloaked ships and people are STILL AFFECTED BY GRAVITY. Even when PHASE cloaked, let alone normal cloaking. Therefore, the ship WILL be picked up by CGT sensors.

Sorry, ST loses.