UFP with SW hs drive and power tech.

[Darth Lucifer]

Or if the "Black Boxes" in this scenario that are hooked up to the Federation Ships includes the ability to navigate. Perhaps the alien who gives away (or sells) the black box hyperspace engine suckers his customers in that way...for a few million credits more, here's the nav computer.

Whoops, I didn't see that in the Klingons with X-wings thread, Q was involved. Knowing Q, he would be twisted enough to give Klingons X-Wings w/o r-2 units. Imagine the smirk on his face as he watches them fire up to light speed and fly right into a black hole or something. He'd chuckle while saying something like "Micro Brains..."

So, if "It the same spirit as "Klingon with X-wings", then Q is the one who gave the Feddies the black boxes in this scenario. Again, he may or may not include the ability to navigate, knowing how twisted he is. At this point, it's now a rat race to see who can build a nav computer first while Q (or the whole continuum even) watches. Or not.

[Gustav32Vasa]

I think you should ask the originator of the topic what he means by "power to use it." if you want to get to the bottom of this debate.

I mean that they have the same power generator as a ISD.

The big question is who is the Federation fighting. I assume that when Gustav says "It the same spirit as "Klingon with X-wings" he means they're gonna fight somebody. The Important question is who since you need to know that to know "what happens."[/quote]

Who do you think would fight the UFP when they got this tech? Would the Klingons and/or the Romulans attack, or perhaps the Dominion? I meant what would happen to the Federation as much as the rest of the galaxy.

Hope this helps.

[Jawawithagun]

If they have these power generators they need hypermatter. As it seems consensus that the production of such is beyond the Federation's capabilities in the near Future, can we assume they have to buy it from an outside source?
Thus someone could make some money over selling the initial machinery under price and then charging whatever they want for the stuff that keeps it running.

[Lord Pounder]

Sorry for not keeping up with this, WoW will do that to a guy, but i have a question. Say you have a Feddies ship with it's new hypermatter reactors and it's hypersdrive. WHat happens if you take that power and divert it to phasers, will it be able to fire 200Gt spreads or will the ship just pop like an over inflated balloon, IIRC the OP stated just Hyperdrives nothing about improved weapons, armour and shields.

[Gustav32Vasa]

Sorry for not keeping up with this, WoW will do that to a guy, but i have a question. Say you have a Feddies ship with it's new hypermatter reactors and it's hypersdrive. WHat happens if you take that power and divert it to phasers, will it be able to fire 200Gt spreads or will the ship just pop like an over inflated balloon, IIRC the OP stated just Hyperdrives nothing about improved weapons, armour and shields.

Nope, no new weapons or defenses.

[Jawawithagun]

Sorry for not keeping up with this, WoW will do that to a guy, but i have a question. Say you have a Feddies ship with it's new hypermatter reactors and it's hypersdrive. WHat happens if you take that power and divert it to phasers, will it be able to fire 200Gt spreads or will the ship just pop like an over inflated balloon, IIRC the OP stated just Hyperdrives nothing about improved weapons, armour and shields.

My guess would be a very similar result to the application of 240V right out of the wall socket to a torch needing two AA batteries.

[Darth Lucifer]

hmmm...imagine the Federation with Hyperdrives and the rest of the AQ doesn't have them. Knowing the pussies in Starfleet, they would use this great new speed technology primarily to explore space and basically use the HD for good. Of course it is a great tactical advantage to have (and they would use it too), but in the end I think (just personal opinion) it would be only be a matter of time for one of the following things to happen:

A) Starfleet wanders too far into deep space and encounters a species they cannot run from (or fight since they still have phasers and torps). The aliens take the ship. Who knows that the Aliens do then?

B) A ship gets taken by the Borg somehow - perhaps somebody took too long to punch the coordinates into the navicomputer and they lock a tractor beam. The Borg eventually figure out and adapt to HD and the AQ is SOL.

C) Other species opposed to the Federation may eventually unite to take down the "Hew-Mons." They will simply take advanatge of human kindness and compassion in some deception...The Romulans have done it and The Klingons would ignore their code of honor (like they've been known to do when it's convenient) to obtain HD.

D) Someone opposed to the UFP makes a device or can duplicate conditions that would make HD inoperable. Of course, that means figuring out how it works in the first place.

I would think the single race that would get the HD first from the Feds would either be the Romulans or the Borg. The spy network and espionage ability of the former has infiltrated Starfleet before, and the relentless nature of the latter speaks for itself.

[brianeyci]

I hardly think the Feds will keep a monopoly on their technology for long. Hyperdrive would revolutionize travel and transport in the Fed, if nothing else. Once neighboring empires figured this out, they would be extremely hesitant to attack the Fed. What enemies do the Fed have left post-VOY? The Romulans are in a perpetual state of cold war with the Feds, and the Klingons were close allies. Nobody else has the resources to challenge the Federation in the AQ.

The most likely scenario is that the Borg come knocking on the door. With hyperspace, they might divert hundreds of cubes to attack the AQ. The Federation would likely share the hyperspace "black boxes" with their allies the Klingons and probably the Romulans as well. The Romulans fucking gave the Feds their cloaking device for gods sake, and the Klingons since TNG have worked closely with the Feds except for that stupid period where the Klingons were fighting Feds because Martok was a changeling. And don't bring up Shinzon, Shinzon was a one-shot wonder. Romulan Admiralty was working with Picard then too.

Borg industrial capacity exceeds all of AQ put together, so unless the Feds, Klings and Roms can get their act together and go on the offensive, worlds get assimilated one by one. Transphasic torpedo and armor tech, even in the hands of Klings and Roms who aren't restricted by temporal prime directive, will only be so useful and the Borg have probably found a countermeasure "Janeway : Oh you'll adapt, eventually.", which strongly suggests future Borg are able to defeat this one-shot wonder as well. Since Borg assimilated the future shuttle's computer, they probably have a countermeasure in place.

I strongly doubt the virus destroyed the whole Borg collective. Borg Queen has died and come back, and the stupid "geometric pattern" would probably just fuck up one Borg cube. Hugh individuality virus didn't work either.

Brian

[Junghalli]

If they have these power generators they need hypermatter. As it seems consensus that the production of such is beyond the Federation's capabilities in the near Future, can we assume they have to buy it from an outside source?

For the record, there's some speculation that omega matter is hypermatter. Or at least it certainly seems to offer the possibility of being an equivalent power source. Then again the Feds have that stupid Omega Directive (WTF the most awesome power source in the universe and you're supposed to destroy it on sight, Jesus how the fuck did these people ever get past spears?).

[Darth Wong]

You can't simply grant someone the ability to build and use technology without also granting them the understanding of the principles behind that technology, which is basically a wholesale substitution of "a small outpost of the Empire" for "UFP". It would be like asking how the Romans would have done if they could build nuclear reactors and turbojets, but keep everything else the same. The very notion is self-contradictory.

[brianeyci]

You can't simply grant someone the ability to build and use technology without also granting them the understanding of the principles behind that technology...

Well with the build part fine, but I thought the thread had a consensus that the Fed obtained hyperdrive through some sort of black box from some alien traders.

The use part... why not? People use light bulbs without understanding the principle behind electricity. The only way this vs is going to work is if the black box analogy is taken literally, or the Feds would therefore understand all the science behind hyperspace and perhaps create weapons and shielding at SW levels, which the op expressly forbids. Make hyperdrive dummified enough, with a little LCD screen since the Feds like it so much, and there you go.

Brian

[Darth Wong]

You can't simply grant someone the ability to build and use technology without also granting them the understanding of the principles behind that technology...

Well with the build part fine, but I thought the thread had a consensus that the Fed obtained hyperdrive through some sort of black box from some alien traders.

Then they would never be able to maintain it, and it would become nothing more than a scientific curiosity in short order.

The use part... why not? People use light bulbs without understanding the principle behind electricity. The only way this vs is going to work is if the black box analogy is taken literally, or the Feds would therefore understand all the science behind hyperspace and perhaps create weapons and shielding at SW levels, which the op expressly forbids. Make hyperdrive dummified enough, with a little LCD screen since the Feds like it so much, and there you go.

Brian

Obviously, you've never worked with any kind of advanced technology, otherwise you would know about this thing called "maintenance".

[Darth Lucifer]

You can't simply grant someone the ability to build and use technology without also granting them the understanding of the principles behind that technology, which is basically a wholesale substitution of "a small outpost of the Empire" for "UFP". It would be like asking how the Romans would have done if they could build nuclear reactors and turbojets, but keep everything else the same. The very notion is self-contradictory.

Right...it is rather silly. The original author said Q was involved, and as we all know, Q can snap his fingers and make it happen. That's the most annoying thing about omnipotent entities...continuity and reality.

In the Klingons with X-wings scenario, that one could be narrowed down a bit, since you could take Q out the equation and make it something like "The Klingons find some kind of derelict with 100 of these bizarre one man craft with..." and go from there.

However giving Federation actual hyperdrives is very messy, just like Darth Wong's scenario above. That's why I liked Jawa w/gun's "black box" idea (that's what I've been calling it). It simplifies everything and opens the table for even sillier discussion (like what would happen once the UFP got HD actually working...)

Here's another parallel point to bring up...if this was a ST vs. SW scenario, it would be the same as dropping a WWII pilot into a modern jet and then dogfighting a pilot from today. The UFP, in the same way as the WW II pilot, is at an inherent disadvantage because the Federation wouldn't be as familiar with SW technology. The Empire would still crush them, IMHO.

[Darth Lucifer]

Well with the build part fine, but I thought the thread had a consensus that the Fed obtained hyperdrive through some sort of black box from some alien traders.

That was Jawawithagun's idea for the simplified design. I fucked up and threw in an alien trader when I meant Q. (See above) However, the original poster nixed that. He means SW ISD hyperdrive apparently.

Good point on Maintenance, etc. , Darth Wong. That just drives the point home about how silly this whole idea is to begin with. Oh, well, at least Gustav acknowledges that HD is superior to Warp Drive. You have to give him that.

Same with the Klingons with X-Wings in the other thread. Knowing Klingons, the X-wings would become all rusty and covered in bits of leftover Gagh in the cockpit before too long. Not to mention a Klingon would be more likely to put his fist through a control panel before trying to figure out how it worked.

[brianeyci]

Then they would never be able to maintain it, and it would become nothing more than a scientific curiosity in short order.

Well okay. Throw in either self-repairing nanites, or make the black-box large enough to house droids. The Feds never have to go inside the black box, and they put in whatever raw materials the LCD screen asks for so the nanites/droids inside can create replacement parts or do repairs. It sounds ridiculous, but I think the spirit of the thread is more "What would the Federation do with Hyperdrive" rather than the technical aspects.

Obviously, you've never worked with any kind of advanced technology, otherwise you would know about this thing called "maintenance".

Well fine, use the self-maintaining black-box. There will be contingencies where the black-box will not be able to maintain itself, but just buy a new one from the alien traders (they should be cheap or the Feds wouldn't be able to mass deploy them). Lightsabers last thousands of years, SW should be able to create a self-maintaining black-box hyperdrive, at least for enough time for the Feds to take advantage of it.

Brian

[Darth Lucifer]

...Throw in either self-repairing nanites...

Oh, god. Nanites. I should have known they would have entered the picture sooner or later...Where's Q when you need him....

[brianeyci]

Oh, god. Nanites. I should have known they would have entered the picture sooner or later...Where's Q when you need him....

Yeah well. You don't need nanites or even droids. Since the op presupposes that the Federaton can buy enough black box units or acquire them from Q, make them reliable enough so if one breaks down there are lots of spare black box units to plug back in or they can buy a shitload more.

Also, maintainence is nowhere near the knowledge necessary to build/repair something. I can maintain my computer somewhat, but building? Given that families can own interstellar craft in SW, I would suppose that there has been a lot of "user-friendly" design in mind requiring minimal maintainence.

Brian

[Jawawithagun]

Sounds decent enough for me. A modular design that lets you pull out and replace those modules damaged (and as indicated by the self-diagnosis system and the block diagram on the front side).

No user-replaceable parts inside.

[Darth Wong]

Oh, god. Nanites. I should have known they would have entered the picture sooner or later...Where's Q when you need him....

Yeah well. You don't need nanites or even droids. Since the op presupposes that the Federaton can buy enough black box units or acquire them from Q, make them reliable enough so if one breaks down there are lots of spare black box units to plug back in or they can buy a shitload more.

From where? Watto's junkyard? Can they even pull power from the thing? Do you know how much training a nuclear power plant operator needs, for fuck's sake?

Also, maintainence is nowhere near the knowledge necessary to build/repair something. I can maintain my computer somewhat, but building? Given that families can own interstellar craft in SW, I would suppose that there has been a lot of "user-friendly" design in mind requiring minimal maintainence.

Bad analogy, unless you're willing to carry it all the way and presuppose that there are service stations located all throughout the Milky Way which are capable of maintaining these spacecraft just like the auto mechanics in real life who take care of family cars for those who don't know how anything works.

[brianeyci]

From where? Watto's junkyard? Can they even pull power from the thing? Do you know how much training a nuclear power plant operator needs, for fuck's sake?

No, but I would assume many years.

So are you saying we should stop discussing Federation with hyperdrive because the "black-box" scenario is impossible?

Aliens, lets say the Trade Federation, decide to make hyperspace compatible with Federation technology. They create a low-maintainence unit, and make it available in large numbers to the Federation.

The black box hypothesis is implausible and unreasonable, and you have to create a specific set of circumstances for it to work. Watto's junkyard this is not. But I don't see how its impossible. The op creator obviously wants the motives and strategy of the Federation with hyperspace discussed, not his thread shut down because "its bad science", or that the mechanism for such a black box creates unreasonable demands on the creator.

Brian

[Darth Wong]

Aliens, lets say the Trade Federation, decide to make hyperspace compatible with Federation technology. They create a low-maintainence unit, and make it available in large numbers to the Federation.

What the fuck makes you think that a zero-maintenance hyperdrive is even possible? And don't say "low-maintenance"; low-maintenance might as well be monster-maintenance if you don't know how to do any maintenance at all.

The op creator obviously wants the motives and strategy of the Federation with hyperspace discussed, not his thread shut down because "its bad science", or that the mechanism for such a black box creates unreasonable demands on the creator.

Brian

So? How does that change the fact that the OP doesn't make any sense? As I said, it's like asking how Roman tactics would change if they had nuclear reactors and jet engines but no other advancements. It makes NO FUCKING SENSE.

[brianeyci]

What the fuck makes you think that a zero-maintenance hyperdrive is even possible? And don't say "low-maintenance"; low-maintenance might as well be monster-maintenance if you don't know how to do any maintenance at all.

Since you're an engineer, I defer to you on the monster-maintainence equals low-maintainence point if you don't know how to do any maintainence at all.

But I still do not see why you could not construct a user-friendly system where maintainence is relatively easy, and if the system broke down have spares to "plug-and-play" with Federation technology. A lot of Treknology is plug and play like cloaking devices, like it or not treknology reaches a point where everything is compatible with everything else, however bad science that may be. SW Engineers should be able to create a plug and play system, if it breaks down why not replace with another part?

So? How does that change the fact that the OP doesn't make any sense? As I said, it's like asking how Roman tactics would change if they had nuclear reactors and jet engines but no other advancements. It makes NO FUCKING SENSE.

But you can't just strap on a jet-engine onto the back of a Roman legionary and make him go really fast. With treknology being plug and play, it should be possible to create a plug-and-play system for hyperdrive. I know you don't like it, and I know it doesn't make sense and is bad science, but how do you explain the ability to plug in cloaking devices into Fed ships just like that with a few extra modifications? Hell fucking phasing cloak took Geordi just a little while to plug and play.

Brian

[Darth Wong]

But I still do not see why you could not construct a user-friendly system where maintainence is relatively easy, and if the system broke down have spares to "plug-and-play" with Federation technology.

Because it's not a fucking toy, you idiot! Any device which processes large amounts of mass and energy will undergo wear and tear, and will require considerable maintenance expertise. You point at the example of a computer; a computer is nothing but a glorified calculator, dumb-shit. There isn't gobs of mass and energy flowing through the thing. But there is no such thing as a no-maintenance nuclear reactor, and there never will be. Jesus, why the fuck aren't these things obvious to people like you? Why do I have to actually explain them? Just for once, can't you fucking put two and two together without asking someone to spell them out for you like a little child?

And don't sell me this "Federation technology is plug 'n play" bullshit either; why the fuck do you think they have entire engineering crews, moron? Even the Trek writers aren't as gibberingly stupid as you, and that's saying something.

[brianeyci]

And don't sell me this "Federation technology is plug 'n play" bullshit either; why the fuck do you think they have entire engineering crews, moron? Even the Trek writers aren't as gibberingly stupid as you, and that's saying something.

I wouldn't have had a super-powerful ship appear out of nowhere, a phaser rifle break by slamming it into someone's head, a bottomless pit for no reason, an enemy that hates the protagonist for no reason other than him being a clone... plus I would never ever use technobabble, and leave mechanism unexplained for fans more competent to dissect. No, sorry lol.

And I concede the point about maintainence, low-maintainence might as well be high-maintainence. Even a little bit of thought makes this op impossible -- Trek ships may not be able to stand the stresses of hyperdrive with their construction materials, and giving them hyperdrive and the ability to maintain it, even a minimal ability, also means they will have numerous other advances in other fields which violates the op itself.

Brian