Trekkie told me ST will win SW because of time travel?!?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-02-19 04:36pm

Chmee wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote:at best the whole time travel argument is little more than a red herring. it doesn't bother actually showing how one side could beat the other using their present tech but just gives some cheap copout that isn't even guaranteed to work. it's probably the single most pathetic argument for trek's side in existence.
Unless, of course, you consider the time travel technology itself to be a 'present tech' that they're using.

as in it doesn't bother showing which one would win in conventional warfare situations. time travel is rarely anything more than a convenient deus ex machinae.

Darth Lucifer · Post by **Darth Lucifer** » 2005-02-19 06:08pm

brianeyci wrote:Alyeska put it best, <snip>

Alyeska wrote:Trek already has the ability to detect which multi-verse your from.

That doesn't necessarily mean that they can pick which alternate timeline they want to go to. Can Alyeska connect the dots? Can you?

This is one of the things I hated about "Treknology." It seems like that the characters in Trek are such scientific masterminds, they can create a device if they detect a little signature, pattern or something...a brainwave for example...(The Aenar in Enterprise) and extrapolate the rest from thin air. Within hours (literally) Trip Tucker and T'Pol were able to build a telepathic device so that the Aenar chick could counteract her brother piloting the Romulan Drones. Fucking absurd.

Now that same leap of logic is being displayed here

...all of a sudden, the Federation can guarantee that they won't go an alternate timeline, thus ensuring that they will defeat the Warsies once and for all.

Maybe the Timeship Relativity can do that (I don't know for sure...what a retarded concept to begin with), but the canon 24th century Federation has NOT been shown to do that. Which means in the end, it's not relevant to this debate.

End Rant.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-02-19 06:17pm

Did I somehow miss the part where anybody here claimed that the Feds can do it, as opposed to saying 'it's apparently possible in Trek?'.
Alyeska NEVER claimed that. He merely showed that apparently, there are time travel varieties that can. Neither did Brianeyci claim the Feds have it.
Indeed, Alyeska explicitely states

Alyeska wrote: All of this means 24th century Feds can't do jack. If they are loosing the war and attempt to use time travel they will fail because they were destined to loose the war.

You were saying?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-02-19 06:41pm

If time travel is multi-verse traveling, there is no victory, just escape. If time travel is single thread bassed, there is no victory because defeat was already predetermined. Either way time travel doesn't do jackshit in the debates.

Darth Lucifer · Post by **Darth Lucifer** » 2005-02-19 06:49pm

Batman wrote:Did I somehow miss the part where anybody here claimed that the Feds can do it, as opposed to saying 'it's apparently possible in Trek?'.
Alyeska NEVER claimed that. He merely showed that apparently, there are time travel varieties that can. Neither did Brianeyci claim the Feds have it. <snip>
You were saying?

Yeah, apparently, I did too... I have heard arguments of this nature and it's as maddening as a dog chasing its own tail. No hostile feelings toward anybody. Sorry.

Darth Lucifer · Post by **Darth Lucifer** » 2005-02-19 07:01pm

Mario wrote: Now that same leap of logic is being displayed here...

Yeah, by me. I'm embarrassed when I rant like that.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-19 08:31pm

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:No, wait. Please explain *how* the "advancement" in time travel "propagates" the change to catch up with the timeline, let alone how it would answer the paradox question.

The way I see it, if I go to the past and kill my grandpa, my dad wouldn't exist and I wouldn't exist as well. But since I never existed on the first place, how the hell would I go to the future and kill my grandpa? I guess the "branching" timeline would be the most acceptable answer. Now I would like to see *how* would your theory provide a better answer.

Okay, here is your objection in a nutshell.

"Time travel means you can go back in time to kill your grandpa. But if you can go back in time to kill your grandpa, you can't go back in time to kill your grandpa, since going back in time means you need to exist and your grandpa was responsible for your existence. Therefore, time travel is impossible or creates an alternate universe."

Now the reason why the above argument is flawed is because it assumes the changes in the timeline happen instantaneously. For example, you kill your grandpa. Then, since you couldn't possibly exist to kill your grandpa, paradox. But we know that changes in timeline do not happen instantaneously. When the Krenim changed time, the changes in time happend in a kind of "wave" effect. If the wave effect happens in space, why not in time?

If time travelling didn't work and created a "multiverse", why worry when someone time travels? Out of some sort of sense of altruism? Please. Why even have "temporal shielding" if time travelling didn't work? Why worry about an alternate universe being created, if your own will stay intact? Its not like the Feds rushed to help Spock's rebellion against the TOS Empire in the alternate universe.

Brian

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-02-19 08:36pm

Brianeyci, no offense intended, but you obviously don't understand a thing about time travel.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-19 08:40pm

Batman wrote:Brianeyci, no offense intended, but you obviously don't understand a thing about time travel.

Well, too bad. If you want to get around the "I can kill my grandpa and therefore I don't exist" idea, you have to treat time travel as either thread based like Alyeska says, or multiverse. Multiverse doesn't make sense, since 29th Century Feds fear time changes and there's no point fearing time travel if it can't do jackshit.

The fact that the Borg assimilated Earth and the Ent-E was still existing means that we have to treat time as a thread.

Threaded means that you can kill your grandpa and still exist in the past.

Of course, all of this in the end means shit in the Feds vs Imps, because 24th Century Feds can't do it. I would rather this part of the discussion be in PST but what the hell.

Brian

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-02-19 08:46pm

Actualy threaded time travel as of the 24th century, it would be impossible to kill your grandfather. Time either works as predestination, or time works in such a way that it is self correcting. See First Contact as an example. Borg try and go back in time. Consequence, Enterprise-E goes back in time and stops them. Here is where it gets even better. Borg are interested in Earth because they recieved a message saying "Come attack Earth" that was sent 200 years prior by the Borg. Time is threaded, predetermined, and can not be changed.

With the 29th century Federation we see the beginings of the possibility to alter time, but no outright conclussive evidence as of yet.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-19 08:49pm

Alyeska wrote:Actualy threaded time travel as of the 24th century, it would be impossible to kill your grandfather. Time either works as predestination, or time works in such a way that it is self correcting.

Well, when does it stop then? 24th Century, most advanced would have been the Krenim. Are you saying that time has a "sense of correctness" and it was that correctness that led Janeway to destroy the Krenim's timeship, rather than Janeway's free will? Please. Then, you could claim that any changes to the timeline that were restored would be the result of time's "self-correction", and given that the good guys have to win in the end in Trek and time will always be restored to its original form... unfalsifiable.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-19 09:02pm

In other words, what would be conclusive evidence that multiverse explaination is a load of shit? Temporal shielding pretty much covers it for me, since it is stupid to worry about someone making changes to the timeline if all it does it create another multiverse and not affect real change to the timeline.

The reason why I shun away from the "predestined" argument is because it smells of personification of science. For example, "The rock wants to roll down the hill" as if the rock had any choice. I know time travel is not science, but we treat it that way. Why should time travel "know" when something is wrong and correct for it, as if it had some sort of conciousness?

Brian

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2005-02-19 09:53pm

Still begs the question as to why the time travel Feddies didn't stop the utter curb-stompage that the Borg cube gave so many Feddie ships on its way to assimilate Earth or why it was left up to Pickard's ship to go back in time to undo an assimilation of Earth. Moreover, just how far back have the time travellers shown a propensity to go? There have to be limits. And the the SW universe, one would have to go back considerably far (thousands of years) in order to be able to damage the Galactic Republic. Granted, they'd likely be able to go back a few dozen years to attempt to prevent Palpatine from seizing power, but his Force powers of premonition would then come into play, along with his extremely powerful Sith powers (he was afterall able to hide his identity and intentions from even Yoda and the Jedi Council).

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-02-19 10:17pm

Brian, do you in fact have an argument short of 'It requires the crew of Voyager to be idiots'(Temporal shielding), and 'I'm too dumb to understand that you can have predestination without anthropormorphic personification'?

Sadly, we know even 29th century Fed Time Travel Tech makes new timelines(Future's End, the good Captain notes 'I have no memory of that timeline' after the Voyager crew set things right in the 90s), which leads to serious questions over why they do what they do, but I beleive it's safe enough to say that we can skip the endless whining over their competence: In the next nine hundred years they may just find some reason to involve themselves with multiple timelines and their creation, and we'd be a bit foolish to completely discount a good reason.

As for Voyager's crew, though, their demonstrated competence with anything above basic hygiene(And not even this for Neelix), is on par with a slug's competence in atomic theory.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-19 11:05pm

jegs2 wrote:Still begs the question as to why the time travel Feddies didn't stop the utter curb-stompage that the Borg cube gave so many Feddie ships on its way to assimilate Earth...

If you have been following the thread, you would have read that everybody concerned has already agreed that time travel cannot be used as a weapon by 24th Century Feds.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-19 11:31pm

SirNitram wrote:Brian, do you in fact have an argument short of 'It requires the crew of Voyager to be idiots'(Temporal shielding), and 'I'm too dumb to understand that you can have predestination without anthropormorphic personification'?

I was referring to the "self-correcting" claim of Alyeska's rather than predestination. Self-correcting is not the same as predestination, and requires that time be aware of its original state somehow.

As for Voyager's crew, though, their demonstrated
competence with anything above basic hygiene(And not even this for Neelix), is on par with a slug's competence in atomic theory.

Voyager's temporal shielding disrupted the Krenim creation of another timeline. Krenim also tried to "erase Voyager from history" with their weapon which Voyager had to deploy temporal shielding with. This is stated by the Krenim guy himself (that he wanted to erase Voyager from history), so unless the guy who created the timeship was retarded, then temporal shielding is necessary to prevent erasure from history.

By saying Voyager's crew is stupid and therefore they got everything wrong can also be applied to Braxton in what he says (Braxton was pretty stupid to let a hippie take over his shuttle and become a trillionaire wasn't he?). Unless we have evidence Voyager's crew was wrong, we assume they were right.

Krenim guy seemingly had more advanced technology than 29th Century Feds, since he had a ship capable of massive changes in the timeline. If he really created alternate timelines each time he erased, timeship must be able to travel between these timelines by definition (since the timeship ends up in new timeline), and therefore Annorax could have gone to the oldest timeline to get back to his wife rather than a fruitless search for years for the right opportunity.

The problem with the predestination claim is that it is impossible to falsify. Any Trek or future Trek (shudder) episode that deals with time travel will have either the original timeline restored, or not. If the original timeline is restored, then a claim can be made for predestination. If the original timeline is not restored, then a claim can be made that the new timeline exists parallel to the old timeline.

Brian

Rommie2006 · Post by **Rommie2006** » 2005-02-19 11:39pm

Well said,

That certainly puts a stop to the "magic bullet" time travel argument.
Besides, I think even if Trek were to use time travel for some unconceivable reason, they have never been known to "transport" more than a single ship through time right?

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-02-19 11:53pm

brianeyci wrote:The reason why I shun away from the "predestined" argument is because it smells of personification of science. For example, "The rock wants to roll down the hill" as if the rock had any choice. I know time travel is not science, but we treat it that way. Why should time travel "know" when something is wrong and correct for it, as if it had some sort of conciousness?

No, what it says is that the future already exists and our perception of time as linear is simply due to the way our consciousness works. Actually, there's support for this in Trek. There's the Prophets, who don't percieve linear time. There's the very existence of the 29th century Feds, which proves that the 29th century "exists" as of the 24th century.
As for the reasons for the 29th century Feds are policing the timeline, that's simple. In a predestination universe their acts in the past would be part of the predictable, inevitable casualty skein that lead to the happy ending. In a many worlds universe they're after personal survival: trying to create and perpetuate universes where things go to their benefit.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-02-20 12:17am

Rommie2006 wrote:Besides, I think even if Trek were to use time travel for some unconceivable reason, they have never been known to "transport" more than a single ship through time right?

I think the idea would be to either A) go back to Coruscant (or wherever SW humans first came from) while it's still in the stone age and nuke it to hell or B) kill Palpatine before he got his Sith training or maybe kill one of his parents and prevent him from being born. Anyway, it wouldn't help. In a predestination/self-correcting universe they'd inevitably fail (or perhaps actually cause Palpatine to come to power by the attempt). In a many worlds universe it'd just be a cop-out for personal survival, creating and moving into an alternate timeline with a happy ending.

Brianeyci wrote:If he really created alternate timelines each time he erased, timeship must be able to travel between these timelines by definition (since the timeship ends up in new timeline), and therefore Annorax could have gone to the oldest timeline to get back to his wife rather than a fruitless search for years for the right opportunity.

What makes you think he could control which timeline he moved to? The way I figure it every time he fired the temporal weapon he created another timeline and automatically moved into the timeline he created. He was like a guy walking a maze where every time he turned a corner a heavy blast door would slam shut behind him. He had to slowly and tediously work his way through a lot of different options before he arrived again at a timeline where his wife existed.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-02-20 12:39am

brianeyci wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Brian, do you in fact have an argument short of 'It requires the crew of Voyager to be idiots'(Temporal shielding), and 'I'm too dumb to understand that you can have predestination without anthropormorphic personification'?
I was referring to the "self-correcting" claim of Alyeska's rather than predestination. Self-correcting is not the same as predestination, and requires that time be aware of its original state somehow.

What silliness is this? Does a rock need to be aware of it's original direction for momentum to keep it moving along a direction after a minor interruption? Is a ball rolling down a track deciding to remain on it's track, despite being shoved to the edge?

As for Voyager's crew, though, their demonstrated
competence with anything above basic hygiene(And not even this for Neelix), is on par with a slug's competence in atomic theory.
Voyager's temporal shielding disrupted the Krenim creation of another timeline. Krenim also tried to "erase Voyager from history" with their weapon which Voyager had to deploy temporal shielding with. This is stated by the Krenim guy himself (that he wanted to erase Voyager from history), so unless the guy who created the timeship was retarded, then temporal shielding is necessary to prevent erasure from history.

Given how ridiculous the concept of shielding from paradoxs is, I see no reason not to conclude stupidity. How do you shield against the consequences of actions? The only real answer is multiple timelines, so that the one that made you is existant somewhere. Without being made, you can't exist. Is the concept of paradox so difficult for asstards like you to get?

By saying Voyager's crew is stupid and therefore they got everything wrong can also be applied to Braxton in what he says (Braxton was pretty stupid to let a hippie take over his shuttle and become a trillionaire wasn't he?). Unless we have evidence Voyager's crew was wrong, we assume they were right.

Evidence: Far more experienced Time Traveller disagrees(Oh, wait. You're a flaming, incurable retard. You don't realize that we weigh dialogue against whose saying it; Voyagers crew regularly acts like a bunch of retards, and have shown no particular depth of knowledge in matters of dimensions. Meanwhile, we have the experienced captain of a Time Ship's word... Could it be a Time Ship Captain knows more about such than Voyager's crew?).

Krenim guy seemingly had more advanced technology than 29th Century Feds, since he had a ship capable of massive changes in the timeline. If he really created alternate timelines each time he erased, timeship must be able to travel between these timelines by definition (since the timeship ends up in new timeline), and therefore Annorax could have gone to the oldest timeline to get back to his wife rather than a fruitless search for years for the right opportunity.

You're inferring alot about his ship. It's possible the mechanism allows for only travel into 'newer' timelines. It's observed properties were 'Target something for change, now be in universe where that change is existant.' As it suffers no consequences despite not being built there, there's no reason against the multiple timeline theory.

The problem with the predestination claim is that it is impossible to falsify. Any Trek or future Trek (shudder) episode that deals with time travel will have either the original timeline restored, or not. If the original timeline is restored, then a claim can be made for predestination. If the original timeline is not restored, then a claim can be made that the new timeline exists parallel to the old timeline.

Brian

Indeed. There is very limited evidence for a predestination theory in Star Trek, whereas multiple timelines reigns with lots of evidence.

mr friendly guy · Post by **mr friendly guy** » 2005-02-20 05:15am

I think its fair to say even if they could time travel, there will be problems in

1) how far back they can reach, since the SW galaxy will still be too powerful

2) being able to reach and attack strategic SW sites with their FTL speeds

On the other note of travelling back in time and giving yourself more advance technology, there may be a possibility of not fucking up the current time line, ie its not a multiverse thing.

If 1) the time travellers isolate themselves from the Federation / pre Federation civilisations at that time they travel back to

2) research newer technologies among themselves (obviously this will be slower than if they had the entire Federation resources to do this) and

3) their descendents make an appearance at a time after the original 24th century time travellers have travelled back in time. Say the original time travellers travelled just prior to when the Empire conquered the Federation. Then their descendents make an appearance one year later offering any remnant of the Fleet the newer technology.

This way they don't interfere with history at all, only with the future. Of course the next obvious question is, how much more advance would such researched technology give them. Most likely not enough to offset the Empire's advantage.

Even if we are generous and say the time travellers get a piece of SW technology with some instructions on how to reverse engineer it from the rebel alliance. And assuming they can travel a few hundred years back in time and manage to make some advances to it. They will still lack the infrastructure to build newer tech in comparable amounts of standard 24th century tech, yet alone build enough ships to offset the Empire's numerical advantage.

While this may make an interesting story, from a vs perspective, it will be difficult to evaluate how much more advance such technology will be.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-02-20 01:51pm

The furthest time jumps in canon are less than a thousand years.. This includes the 29th Century Federation picking up Voyager in the 20th century. This places the Federation task force in a Galactic Republic where private corporations own more space, more fleets, and more firepower than them.

The idea of them setting up a colony and advancing their tech is ludicrous and demonstrates a fundamentally retarded view of technological advancement. Small groups with minimal resources, cut off from everyone else, do not close a 25,000 year gap.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-02-20 02:09pm

SirNitram wrote:The idea of them setting up a colony and advancing their tech is ludicrous and demonstrates a fundamentally retarded view of technological advancement. Small groups with minimal resources, cut off from everyone else, do not close a 25,000 year gap.

My view on this concept is to do this repeatedly. Imagine sending them back in time 1,000 years. Now repeat this 20,000 times.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2005-02-20 02:14pm

Why would the Feds use time travel against the Empire? They'd just get their asses kicked sooner, that's all!

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba · Post by **Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba** » 2005-02-20 02:43pm

A tiny nitpick, Nitram: In Enterprise, they went to the 31th century. Still, even then the Fed ships would be used as toilet paper and house insulation.