Trek-Verse Alliance vs Rebel Alliance

[omegaLancer]

When folks say, oh, I was talking about the Rebel Alliance, not the New Republic ... what, pray tell, did you think the New Republic was? It's the Rebel Alliance, pinheads.

And again, instead of talking facts, we're talking magic-wishful-thinking tech, supercalifragilistic phasing torpedos that somehow change frequencies.

Ahem. The nature of a torpedo is a controlled matter/anti-matter reaction. There is no frequency, unless you're positing that the reaction occurs and it is somehow channeled/transmitted by the torpedo mechanism, which is still more Trek idiot-tech. Never use a hammer when you can use a multiphasic Feinberger. (And how many of you Trek weenies even know what a Feinberger is, anymore?)

Furthermore, it's assumed that the 'ignore the shuttle' tactic that worked in BOBW will naturally continue to work in all instances, against all Borg ships, conveniently ignoring the Borg's adaptive capabilities. What, you don't think they can adapt to a trojan horse tactic?

Why even assume the Borg will participate in your parade? The Borg don't give a rat's ass about your Federation. In order to win their cooperation, you have to have something they want, or be able to threaten them in a meaningful fashion. "Here, assimilate me, I just drank multiphasic rat poison! Up yours, Queenie!"

Why even assume that 'all the ships of the Federation, the Klingons, the Romulans, the Cardassians, etc.' are going to go head-to-head with the Rebel fleet in some glorious battle? This is the same tired line where 'the Enterprise will outmaneuver the Star Destroyer' and seems to assume that the enemy is sitting there waiting for their proper whupping at the hands of the Uber-Federation.

Right, resources. The Uber-Federation has resources. I'm sure they have permission slips from their mommies and daddies, too. One of the first objectives in war is to identify enemy resources and lines of supply and take them away. (And it still takes time to build starships in large quantities, go listen to Shelby's pitch at the end of BOBW.)

10,000 ships in the Federation alone? Laughable. If the Federation had 10K ships, Wolf 359 would have been a minor setback, and that was a desperation, last-minute, all-hands push.

And your assumption that you get the best tech out of every race is also flawed. Is the technology so bland that gizmo x from the Dominion ship works the exact same way on the Federation ship? You may have the massed technology, but that's a long way from your 100,000 ships all having the same tech.

As for the Borg 'industrial capabilities' - that's NONE. Zero, zilch, zip. They assimilate, not build. Ask the Borg to retrofit your ship, you get a Borg ship ... not a Federation one. Their design protocols are meant for Borg - not for humans or any other species.

Ablative armor? Hah. I thought your shields were impervious to our (or the Rebels') wimpy 'lasers'. And the concept of regenerating ablative armor was an idiot plot device from the very start. Or are you telling me you magically materialized sufficient material to absorb punishment from Borg weapons, but somehow, it all comes out of nowhere and goes back to nowhere? That the SIF manages to hold up not only the original hull, but this steel (?) bubble of slightly larger volume, which is magically suspended around the ship?

And all that crossed your fanboy brains was, wow, that looks cool, I'm gonna put it on my starship and be da 733t *4733t dood?

Amazing.

Wow so who do you think will win?

[Ghost Rider]

Okay let's aly some really cold hard fact for the newbie fucktards.

So far the rabid trektard horde has yet to show CALCULATION ONE about how is their uberized Trek verse is going to make a SINGLE Mon Cal cruiser just sit there and take punishment.

So before the rest think this board is still somehow slacked...start putting up real math or this one gets locked because really so far I've seen better speculation from a Young Earth Creationist explaining how she believes the Dinosaurs were Adam's first playthings.

[Ghost Rider]

And just for a small thing to think of.

70 Trillion GW DISSAPTION(just so you rabid little shits grasp that...it can take that and still have them UP) is for a twenty year old fucking Transport.

And before the response of "That's not on a MOn Cal!!!"

You're right, a Mon Cal competes with a fucking ISD, and more.

So c'mon,Trektards...step up and show what the fuck you're made of because we've done this before and SW still destroy Trek because guess what?

The Rebels have tech that outclasses the ST force in fucking Fighter format let alone Destroyer, Carrier and Cruiser format.

So let's try to remember the fighters carry multi-GT warheads and are capable of engaging the enemy pretty much at will.

[Rommie2006]

When folks say, oh, I was talking about the Rebel Alliance, not the New Republic ... what, pray tell, did you think the New Republic was? It's the Rebel Alliance, pinheads.

Nitpick. The Rebel Alliance is NOT the New Republic.
Pre-Endor = Rebel Alliance. Post Endor (many years later) = New Republic.
The Rebel Alliance was a ragtag band of REBELS that had several hundred cap ships at the most, with several hundred planetary systems at the most.

The New Republic is a more organised government. The controllled or exerted their influence for the most part throughout the galaxy as the Empire did, but are less militaristic than the Empire. Their industrial capabilities and fleet count at its height probably could come near to the level of that of the Galactic Empire.

[Rommie2006]

And just for a small thing to think of.

70 Trillion GW DISSAPTION(just so you rabid little shits grasp that...it can take that and still have them UP) is for a twenty year old fucking Transport.

And before the response of "That's not on a MOn Cal!!!"

You're right, a Mon Cal competes with a fucking ISD, and more.

So c'mon,Trektards...step up and show what the fuck you're made of because we've done this before and SW still destroy Trek because guess what?

The Rebels have tech that outclasses the ST force in fucking Fighter format let alone Destroyer, Carrier and Cruiser format.

So let's try to remember the fighters carry multi-GT warheads and are capable of engaging the enemy pretty much at will.

This thread wasnt created to do a Trek wank. Its the challenge of finding a way if the Trek can ever stand against Wars, given the best condition for trek (a cooperation of all major races in Trek-race) and the worst condition for Wars (the weakest major power - Rebel Alliance)

[Ghost Rider]

And just for a small thing to think of.

70 Trillion GW DISSAPTION(just so you rabid little shits grasp that...it can take that and still have them UP) is for a twenty year old fucking Transport.

And before the response of "That's not on a MOn Cal!!!"

You're right, a Mon Cal competes with a fucking ISD, and more.

So c'mon,Trektards...step up and show what the fuck you're made of because we've done this before and SW still destroy Trek because guess what?

The Rebels have tech that outclasses the ST force in fucking Fighter format let alone Destroyer, Carrier and Cruiser format.

So let's try to remember the fighters carry multi-GT warheads and are capable of engaging the enemy pretty much at will.

This thread wasnt created to do a Trek wank. Its the challenge of finding a way if the Trek can ever stand against Wars, given the best condition for trek (a cooperation of all major races in Trek-race) and the worst condition for Wars (the weakest major power - Rebel Alliance)

And we've done Threads based against a FUCKING corporation.

We have something against fucking SW fighters vs ST.

Doesn't that fucking tell you anything?

[Kuja]

This thread wasnt created to do a Trek wank. Its the challenge of finding a way if the Trek can ever stand against Wars, given the best condition for trek (a cooperation of all major races in Trek-race) and the worst condition for Wars (the weakest major power - Rebel Alliance)

50 Mon Cal Cruisers.

Headshot. Headshot. Headshot. Repeat as necessary.

Watch Trek crumble.

[Lord Pounder]

When folks say, oh, I was talking about the Rebel Alliance, not the New Republic ... what, pray tell, did you think the New Republic was? It's the Rebel Alliance, pinheads.

Nitpick. The Rebel Alliance is NOT the New Republic.
Pre-Endor = Rebel Alliance. Post Endor (many years later) = New Republic.
The Rebel Alliance was a ragtag band of REBELS that had several hundred cap ships at the most, with several hundred planetary systems at the most.

The New Republic is a more organised government. The controllled or exerted their influence for the most part throughout the galaxy as the Empire did, but are less militaristic than the Empire. Their industrial capabilities and fleet count at its height probably could come near to the level of that of the Galactic Empire.

Hey junior in what fucking universe could the entire fedderation fleet even stand up to one Mon Cal Cruiser? IIRC the Mon Cal Cruisers are actually better shielded than an ISD because they have more backups and a slightly lower number of HTL's don't mean a damn when you're getting one shit kills with anti-starfighter weapons.

[Junghalli]

Most of the Rebels industrial capacity is planets like Mon Calamari that weren't officially part of the Alliance but covertly provided them with ships, equipment, and personnel. Do they still have these sources of resupply in this scenario, or are they just left with their ships and the people on them?
If the latter my strategy would be to surrender, then gradually infiltrate their command structure. When I have at least one infiltrator on every ship I have them plant bombs and sabotage the Alliance fleet. With their obscene technological advantage thus taken away it shouldn't be too hard to overthrow them after that.

[Nick Lancaster]

Nitpick. The Rebel Alliance is NOT the New Republic.
Pre-Endor = Rebel Alliance. Post Endor (many years later) = New Republic.
The Rebel Alliance was a ragtag band of REBELS that had several hundred cap ships at the most, with several hundred planetary systems at the most.

The New Republic is a more organised government. The controllled or exerted their influence for the most part throughout the galaxy as the Empire did, but are less militaristic than the Empire. Their industrial capabilities and fleet count at its height probably could come near to the level of that of the Galactic Empire.

The point is that the New Republic is a direct outgrowth of the Rebel Alliance. After Palpatine was killed, the Rebels didn't throw everything out and hold focus groups to settle on a new name. The Rebels included former Imperial Senators and planetary leaders; it included a military and supply structure. All of that was incorporated as the core of the New Republic.

Got it? The core of the New Republic is the Rebel Alliance.

It's this idiocy of trying to pretend they're two separate entities that I'm objecting to. It's like saying the American Colonists became something else once they signed the Declaration of Independence, or ratified the Constitution.

[Prozac the Robert]

The point is that the New Republic is a direct outgrowth of the Rebel Alliance. After Palpatine was killed, the Rebels didn't throw everything out and hold focus groups to settle on a new name. The Rebels included former Imperial Senators and planetary leaders; it included a military and supply structure. All of that was incorporated as the core of the New Republic.

Got it? The core of the New Republic is the Rebel Alliance.

It's this idiocy of trying to pretend they're two separate entities that I'm objecting to. It's like saying the American Colonists became something else once they signed the Declaration of Independence, or ratified the Constitution.

That's silly. If someone proposed a vs. battle between the american colonists and a bunch of red shirts, you wouldn't then claim that the americans get to use modern weapons. Nor would the redshirts get to call in help from the future federation's time ships.

[Rommie2006]

Nitpick. The Rebel Alliance is NOT the New Republic.
Pre-Endor = Rebel Alliance. Post Endor (many years later) = New Republic.
The Rebel Alliance was a ragtag band of REBELS that had several hundred cap ships at the most, with several hundred planetary systems at the most.

The New Republic is a more organised government. The controllled or exerted their influence for the most part throughout the galaxy as the Empire did, but are less militaristic than the Empire. Their industrial capabilities and fleet count at its height probably could come near to the level of that of the Galactic Empire.

The point is that the New Republic is a direct outgrowth of the Rebel Alliance. After Palpatine was killed, the Rebels didn't throw everything out and hold focus groups to settle on a new name. The Rebels included former Imperial Senators and planetary leaders; it included a military and supply structure. All of that was incorporated as the core of the New Republic.

Got it? The core of the New Republic is the Rebel Alliance.

It's this idiocy of trying to pretend they're two separate entities that I'm objecting to. It's like saying the American Colonists became something else once they signed the Declaration of Independence, or ratified the Constitution.

Really? The core of the New Republic is the Rebel Alliance. Are you implying that the New Republic never expanded its navy? Never built more ships? Never developed new ships? That after 10+ years, the New Republic still uses the ships the Rebels used?
The New Republic is not equivalent to the Rebel Alliance militaristically, because they had many years and a galaxy full of resources to rebuild new ships! The Rebels did not!

[Nick Lancaster]

That's silly. If someone proposed a vs. battle between the american colonists and a bunch of red shirts, you wouldn't then claim that the americans get to use modern weapons. Nor would the redshirts get to call in help from the future federation's time ships.

Nor was I aware that 200+ years had passed between the 'Rebel Alliance' and the 'New Republic'. I specifically stated the difference between the colonists and the fledgling republic formed by the Declaration of Independence (and later the Constitution).

We're talking less than a decade. The core of the 'New Republic' is still comprised of the Rebel Alliance, no matter how loudly Trek types proclaim it not to be so.

It seems they are devoutly hoping the theoretical force of the Federation and their homies can lay smackdown on the poor Rebels. More magictech (supermultiphasicdeborgifying torpedos), inflated ship tallies (10K for the Federation?), and so on.

This isn't even a 'good guys vs. good guys' scenario; it's the whole of the Trek universe vs. the 'good guys' of the Star Wars universe. Of course, if we went with the same premise, the Rebels would get to collaborate with the Empire, and we all know the outcome of the Empire vs. the Federation match-up.

[Junghalli]

Nor was I aware that 200+ years had passed between the 'Rebel Alliance' and the 'New Republic'. I specifically stated the difference between the colonists and the fledgling republic formed by the Declaration of Independence (and later the Constitution).
We're talking less than a decade. The core of the 'New Republic' is still comprised of the Rebel Alliance, no matter how loudly Trek types proclaim it not to be so.

The Rebel Alliance leaders may form the core of the New Republic government, but there's a world of difference between the two militarily. The Rebel Alliance was a guerilla force with little more than a pirate fleet to back them up. Most of the military strength of the NR is Imperial assets that the Rebels took over.

[Rommie2006]

That's silly. If someone proposed a vs. battle between the american colonists and a bunch of red shirts, you wouldn't then claim that the americans get to use modern weapons. Nor would the redshirts get to call in help from the future federation's time ships.

Nor was I aware that 200+ years had passed between the 'Rebel Alliance' and the 'New Republic'. I specifically stated the difference between the colonists and the fledgling republic formed by the Declaration of Independence (and later the Constitution).

We're talking less than a decade. The core of the 'New Republic' is still comprised of the Rebel Alliance, no matter how loudly Trek types proclaim it not to be so.

It seems they are devoutly hoping the theoretical force of the Federation and their homies can lay smackdown on the poor Rebels. More magictech (supermultiphasicdeborgifying torpedos), inflated ship tallies (10K for the Federation?), and so on.

This isn't even a 'good guys vs. good guys' scenario; it's the whole of the Trek universe vs. the 'good guys' of the Star Wars universe. Of course, if we went with the same premise, the Rebels would get to collaborate with the Empire, and we all know the outcome of the Empire vs. the Federation match-up.

Maybe instead of yakking up without producing any constructive.
You could provide some estimates and to the fleet size of the combined trek powers? An insight to your analysis perhaps?

And no need to jerk off on a crusade to damn all trekkies (FYI I am not a trekkie). I'm just wondering if there is any way Trek can win the Rebels, you know like the Ancient vs Wraith standoff in Stargate? (Ancient = Massively superior tech, little resources n ships. Wraith = inferior tech, much more resources n ships.)

[Rommie2006]

Nor was I aware that 200+ years had passed between the 'Rebel Alliance' and the 'New Republic'. I specifically stated the difference between the colonists and the fledgling republic formed by the Declaration of Independence (and later the Constitution).
We're talking less than a decade. The core of the 'New Republic' is still comprised of the Rebel Alliance, no matter how loudly Trek types proclaim it not to be so.

The Rebel Alliance leaders may form the core of the New Republic government, but there's a world of difference between the two militarily. The Rebel Alliance was a guerilla force with little more than a pirate fleet to back them up. Most of the military strength of the NR is Imperial assets that the Rebels took over.

It's a pity some people can see the military difference between the Rebel Alliance and the New Republic.

I guess to them the Old Republic IS the Galactic Empire also, since the Empire was based on the Republic, conveniently forgetting the military build-up when it turned into the Empire.
Oh won't that mean the New Republic is the Galactic Empire since they absorbed many Imperial systems?
Gee then we would conclude that Old Republic = Galactic Empire = New Republic = Rebel Alliance.

All four major factions are *different* whether you like them or not. Just because one faction lead to the formation of another doesnt mean that it is equivalent.

[Ghost Rider]

I want to see Trek side produce numbers out of this wankfest. We have the SW numbers...so far nothing on the Uber Trek side at all.

Literally a load of presumptions and yabbering.

[Nick Lancaster]

Maybe instead of yakking up without producing any constructive.
You could provide some estimates and to the fleet size of the combined trek powers? An insight to your analysis perhaps?

In response to the proposed 10K Federation ship count, I specifically referred to the figures for the Battle of Wolf 359. That battle was everything Starfleet could muster on a moment's notice; the loss of the ships in that battle also left the fleet in need of extensive rebuilding.

Yet somehow you think I'm talking out of my ass? Show me where Trek has ever indicated that their forces are close to 10K ships. Even if you go back and look at the original Franz Josef Starfleet Technical Manual, there were only a few hundred ships; perhaps, just perhaps, if you look at the fanboy-ish Next Generation supplement for FASA's Star Trek RPG, you might get closer to such lofty numbers.

And don't forget, that even with a projected 10K ships, the Enterprise is always the only one in range, and there are no other ships available to help. (Come to think of it, I don't even think the Federation has 10K+ member worlds.)

Since the inflated numbers are your brainchild, perhaps you should bear the burden of proof and show why those figures are accurate?

And no need to jerk off on a crusade to damn all trekkies (FYI I am not a trekkie). I'm just wondering if there is any way Trek can win the Rebels, you know like the Ancient vs Wraith standoff in Stargate? (Ancient = Massively superior tech, little resources n ships. Wraith = inferior tech, much more resources n ships.)

Then what the !@#$% are you doing regurgitating the same retarded arguments and battle tactics? Oh, whee, we get ablative-alakazam-shields and super-duper-crap-o-phasic-torpedos! We get Borg technology and industrial capability! (Which I've also pointed out is entirely unrealistic. The Borg don't negotiate, hence, no alliance. The Borg don't make products to be sold at BorgMart, either.)

That's it? The sum of your brilliant strategy is 'let's all gang up on the Rebels' and maybe we can find a way to win?

How about considering actual strategies, such as resource denial and disrupting supply lines? Knowing how flexible and mobile Rebel forces have proven, can you isolate their bases? How would this affect their chain of command?

Constructive enough for you?

[consequences]

Yet somehow you think I'm talking out of my ass? Show me where Trek has ever indicated that their forces are close to 10K ships. Even if you go back and look at the original Franz Josef Starfleet Technical Manual, there were only a few hundred ships; perhaps, just perhaps, if you look at the fanboy-ish Next Generation supplement for FASA's Star Trek RPG, you might get closer to such lofty numbers.

Nah, I actually counted the fleet's numbers once, and still have the book lying around somewhere, the total fed fleet, including Constitutions in mothballs didn't get above 2000 at absolute max(I want to say 1000, but my memory's fuzzy). Alhough they never made mention of the Miranda horde, there may have been a few thousand of those lying around.

[Nick Lancaster]

It's a pity some people can see the military difference between the Rebel Alliance and the New Republic.

I guess to them the Old Republic IS the Galactic Empire also, since the Empire was based on the Republic, conveniently forgetting the military build-up when it turned into the Empire.
Oh won't that mean the New Republic is the Galactic Empire since they absorbed many Imperial systems?
Gee then we would conclude that Old Republic = Galactic Empire = New Republic = Rebel Alliance.

All four major factions are *different* whether you like them or not. Just because one faction lead to the formation of another doesnt mean that it is equivalent.

First, I would guess you mean 'can't see'.

But instead of addressing the fact, which you have not at any time disputed, that the Rebel Alliance forms the core of the New Republic, you dive right off into standard Trek-boy semantic silliness.

But let's look at your analysis:

Old Republic = Galactic Empire

Largely correct. The bulk of the military build-up was achieved under the Emergency Powers granted then-Chancellor Palpatine.

Galactic Empire = New Republic

Based on your brilliant observation that the New Republic absorbed the worlds of the Galactic Empire, therefore they are the Galactic Empire?

Such mangled logic does not support either your original claim nor your amazing deduction above.

New Republic = Rebel Alliance, therefore Rebel Alliance = Galactic Empire

The Rebel Alliance specifically declared their opposition to the Empire, enumerating their reasons for doing so and establishing themselves as a separate entity. While you may equate the New Republic to the Rebel Alliance, it is impossible to equate the Alliance to the Empire.

The core of the New Republic is the Rebel Alliance. They didn't suddenly scrap their ships in favor of new models when they won, nor did they suddenly acquire a metric assload of new ships (certified, pre-owned Imperial Star Destroyers).

So when you make half-baked comments like, "I meant the Rebel Alliance, not the New Republic," in order to bolster your argument, you're making absolutely no sense whatsoever. Trying to prop it up by saying, "I meant in a military sense," is even sillier.

Or, in math terms, the set "New Republic" includes the sub-set "Rebel Alliance." They are not mutually exclusive, as you seem to be suggesting.

[Rommie2006]

It's a pity some people can see the military difference between the Rebel Alliance and the New Republic.

I guess to them the Old Republic IS the Galactic Empire also, since the Empire was based on the Republic, conveniently forgetting the military build-up when it turned into the Empire.
Oh won't that mean the New Republic is the Galactic Empire since they absorbed many Imperial systems?
Gee then we would conclude that Old Republic = Galactic Empire = New Republic = Rebel Alliance.

All four major factions are *different* whether you like them or not. Just because one faction lead to the formation of another doesnt mean that it is equivalent.

First, I would guess you mean 'can't see'.

But instead of addressing the fact, which you have not at any time disputed, that the Rebel Alliance forms the core of the New Republic, you dive right off into standard Trek-boy semantic silliness.

But let's look at your analysis:

Old Republic = Galactic Empire

Largely correct. The bulk of the military build-up was achieved under the Emergency Powers granted then-Chancellor Palpatine.

Galactic Empire = New Republic

Based on your brilliant observation that the New Republic absorbed the worlds of the Galactic Empire, therefore they are the Galactic Empire?

Such mangled logic does not support either your original claim nor your amazing deduction above.

New Republic = Rebel Alliance, therefore Rebel Alliance = Galactic Empire

The Rebel Alliance specifically declared their opposition to the Empire, enumerating their reasons for doing so and establishing themselves as a separate entity. While you may equate the New Republic to the Rebel Alliance, it is impossible to equate the Alliance to the Empire.

The core of the New Republic is the Rebel Alliance. They didn't suddenly scrap their ships in favor of new models when they won, nor did they suddenly acquire a metric assload of new ships (certified, pre-owned Imperial Star Destroyers).

So when you make half-baked comments like, "I meant the Rebel Alliance, not the New Republic," in order to bolster your argument, you're making absolutely no sense whatsoever. Trying to prop it up by saying, "I meant in a military sense," is even sillier.

Or, in math terms, the set "New Republic" includes the sub-set "Rebel Alliance." They are not mutually exclusive, as you seem to be suggesting.

One word. *Sarcasm*. The argument was *intentionally* flawed and was not trying to prove anything, except that you cant equate factions just because they are somehow related.

Speaking of maths, the Rebel Alliance is a sub-set of te New Republic, no contention here. But then why are insisting that Rebel Alliance = New Republic? There is a difference between SUBSET from EQUAL. If the Rebel Alliance is a sub-set of the New Republic, which you have so graciously pointed out, then it cannot be equal to the New Republic. In fact it is implied that New Republic = Rebel Alliance + Something else! -> Rebel Alliance < New Republic.

So unless you can prove that the New Republic did NOT build any ships at all after their formation, then you can prove New Republic = Rebel Alliance, from a military point of view.

[Rommie2006]

Maybe instead of yakking up without producing any constructive.
You could provide some estimates and to the fleet size of the combined trek powers? An insight to your analysis perhaps?

In response to the proposed 10K Federation ship count, I specifically referred to the figures for the Battle of Wolf 359. That battle was everything Starfleet could muster on a moment's notice; the loss of the ships in that battle also left the fleet in need of extensive rebuilding.

Yet somehow you think I'm talking out of my ass? Show me where Trek has ever indicated that their forces are close to 10K ships. Even if you go back and look at the original Franz Josef Starfleet Technical Manual, there were only a few hundred ships; perhaps, just perhaps, if you look at the fanboy-ish Next Generation supplement for FASA's Star Trek RPG, you might get closer to such lofty numbers.

And don't forget, that even with a projected 10K ships, the Enterprise is always the only one in range, and there are no other ships available to help. (Come to think of it, I don't even think the Federation has 10K+ member worlds.)

Since the inflated numbers are your brainchild, perhaps you should bear the burden of proof and show why those figures are accurate?

Ok, after reading other posts, I admit I may have misquoted Starfleet's fleet count. The upper limit should be somewhere a little above 1000 ships(must have remembered the wrong figure). Your point on a over-wanked ship count is duly noted. So this puts the no. of ships from all Alpha Quadrant powers at 5k? Can we assume that the Dominion and Borg(for them maybe a bit more) then have about the same number of ships? Totalling to 15k - 20k ships?

And no need to jerk off on a crusade to damn all trekkies (FYI I am not a trekkie). I'm just wondering if there is any way Trek can win the Rebels, you know like the Ancient vs Wraith standoff in Stargate? (Ancient = Massively superior tech, little resources n ships. Wraith = inferior tech, much more resources n ships.)

Then what the !@#$% are you doing regurgitating the same retarded arguments and battle tactics? Oh, whee, we get ablative-alakazam-shields and super-duper-crap-o-phasic-torpedos! We get Borg technology and industrial capability! (Which I've also pointed out is entirely unrealistic. The Borg don't negotiate, hence, no alliance. The Borg don't make products to be sold at BorgMart, either.)

That's it? The sum of your brilliant strategy is 'let's all gang up on the Rebels' and maybe we can find a way to win?

How about considering actual strategies, such as resource denial and disrupting supply lines? Knowing how flexible and mobile Rebel forces have proven, can you isolate their bases? How would this affect their chain of command?

Constructive enough for you?

The Borg did form an alliance with Voyager to fight species 8472. They are *not* completely without reason. As for ablative armor and transphasic torps, I have not made any posts about it yet, so it was not me:P If the consesus is Trek ships amount to 15k+ cap ships total ship count, and the rebels have at most few hundred ships (correct me if I am wrong), that leaves 1 rebel ship to 40 trek ships. I admit with the new figures, it does not look as bright as before for Trek as it did at first.

I wont wank the new ablative armor or transphasic torpedoes figures, but
is there any way this new tech can turn the tide of battle? I was under the impression that transphasic torpedoes used phase-cloasking technology to bypass shielding and go straight for the ship's armor or internal structure. Will this reduce the no. of torps to destroy a Mon Cal significantly?

As to your logistical concerns, transwarp tech should reduce their response them, and those "transwarp conduits" the Borg use can be expanded to cover critical/key systems in the Alliance.

[Ghost Rider]

I am still waiting for numbers.

Because really it would take a number of craft to hurt said crusier, and they are losing easily hundreds of craft per second.

And before we go "But they have perfect cloaks and phase cloaks!!!"...said phase cloaks are still affected by energy quite nicely just solid matter they seem to avoid to some degree. And the Mon Cal just has to spray with it's over 100+ guns. This is not a pretty event.

And this only occurs if you somehow insure you got it sitting there and not deciding to run because it feels it can accomplish it's objective any time it wants.

And remember the rebels were mobile against an opponent of far more power then anything Trek has begun to fathom in speed content.

This still doesn't even begin to cover the point that the Rebels deciding that they have to obliterate their opponent by sending Mon Cals to main planets and start scorching...not BDZing since that's overkill but watching your main industries and agricultural planets being destroyed one by one will start to destroy your entire war effort, given anytime you engage a Rebel warship...you're talking a death count in the low to mid thousands.

Just so you get an idea....a cruiser of the Mon Cal if analogous to an ISD, it's hull can take around the 5-10 TT range(probably higher)

64MT(Largest most wanked out PT rating) * 40 ships = 2560 MT/ 1000 =2.56 GT(one volley)

Let's give these 40 ships a refire rate of 10 per sec

2.56 GT * 10 = 25.6 GT per sec

Hell a full minute of this 25.6 GT * 60 = 1536 GT per minute or 1.5 TT per minute

It takes them about 6-7 minutes of 40 to 1 odds to put it on par to what was shown in the span of seconds in RoTJ.

Think about that for a sec.

And this is assuming that the unsupported thought that Transphasic will go through SW shields and not are some form of Frequncy babble given they are seemingly Borg Specfic weapons.

[Nick Lancaster]

One word. *Sarcasm*. The argument was *intentionally* flawed and was not trying to prove anything, except that you cant equate factions just because they are somehow related.

Nice dodge. You can't answer me, so you invent a for-crap argument, then say it wasn't meant to be serious, and pick nits in my response to your for-crap argument?

Like I said, you sure the hell argue like a Trekkie.

Speaking of maths, the Rebel Alliance is a sub-set of te New Republic, no contention here. But then why are insisting that Rebel Alliance = New Republic? There is a difference between SUBSET from EQUAL. If the Rebel Alliance is a sub-set of the New Republic, which you have so graciously pointed out, then it cannot be equal to the New Republic. In fact it is implied that New Republic = Rebel Alliance + Something else! -> Rebel Alliance < New Republic.

You were the one who asserted that the Rebel Alliance is significantly different (i.e. weaker) than the New Republic, by way of some magical ship construction or exchange of property that took place once Palpatine was tossed down the power shaft.

I continue to point out that the core of the New Republic is the Rebel Alliance. You are the one that must prove that their ascendancy resulted in such a significant change in military structure that they are substantially different, because that is YOUR claim.

Instead, you keep saying it's not so and I need to prove otherwise.

Sorry, that's not the way burden of proof works.

So unless you can prove that the New Republic did NOT build any ships at all after their formation, then you can prove New Republic = Rebel Alliance, from a military point of view.

Again, you're the one who wanted to face 'Rebel Alliance' (implying less ships and overall miliary strength) in order to bolster your chances of success with a Federation mega-fleet. I pointed out an error in your assumption, and you are still trying to insist there are significantly fewer ships and resources.

Somehow, you think they magically transformed into a far-more expansive and better equipped entity, as if it were a corporate merger instead of a political shift. Or perhaps you think they sat around for a couple of years building things before they said, "Okay, now we're the New Republic!"

Bear in mind that in the X-Wing series, at no point does the 'New Republic' sprout warships. They'd love to have a Star Destroyer or two, but the only person with one is Booster Terrik. The Lusankya doesn't even show up for four books, and it's under Isard's command! The Imperial Remnant retains a significant force, as do various warlords. It's not like everyone started singing the Republic Anthem and began laboring for the glory of the New Republic.

When we reach the Thrawn era, we find the Empire more than sufficiently equipped ... but where are the vast numbers of warships you claim the New Republic must have?

Might it be that they don't exist?

Might it be that manufacturing facilities and shipyards didn't automatically change hands? That there was no 'eminent domain' exercised, and Sienar Fleet Systems and other corporations retained their independence, able to do business with whomever has the credit?

Might it be that the core of the New Republic is the 'weaker' Rebel Alliance you want to fight so badly?

[Junghalli]

You were the one who asserted that the Rebel Alliance is significantly different (i.e. weaker) than the New Republic, by way of some magical ship construction or exchange of property that took place once Palpatine was tossed down the power shaft.

Allow me to make an analogy here. There's a country in, let's say central America, where there's a guy with a few thousand men fighting a guerilla war against the government. Then he actually manages to overthrow the government of that country. He becomes the boss and presumably he elevates his buddies to important positions in the new government. But he's also taken over the country. That means he controls tons of industrial capacity and military strength that he didn't before. His small guerilla army might become the core of whatever new forces he assembles, but aforementioned small guerilla army is NOT equal to the forces he now commands. Get it?