Planetary destruction. Deathstar Vs Genesis Torpedo

[CJvR]

My question is whitch is more effective and more usful.

The Deathstar is by far the better weapon. It is more flexible and an outstanding terror weapon as well as a mobile base for fleets and armies. Blowing up planets isn't the Deathstars main job, threating to blow them up if they dont lower their shields and surrender is.

The Genesis device in contrast have very limited military value. It have to be infiltrated onto enemy worlds, it is detectable and easy to destroy once dicovered. Also we do not know what effect, if any, it will have on forcefields. The main military value of the Genesis device is MAD. The best use of the device is outright terrorism since hard targets are much harder to hit.

The GD leave a planet available for colonization, the DS an asteroid field ready for mining or an intact surrendered world.

[Solauren]

In terms of sheer effectiveness, the Death Star wins

However, the Genesis device comparable as a terror weapon.

The problem of course is hiding it's build-up from your enemy before you blow it up in there face.

How feasible would it be to to cloak it? Say, adapting the stratergy Thrawn used in Heir to the Empire?

Stick the Genesis Device onboard a freighter or other ship, inside a thick shielded container, and cloak the container. (This is similiar to what Thrawn did to sneak 40+ Tie Fighters and 100 mole miners into a heavily gaurded trade depot)
Even if the Empire is scanning with a CGT, the mass of the freighter or ship being off by a few hundred pounds shouldn't tip anyone off, unless you have a commander/sensor operater that is obsessive with details or something.

Keep the Device cloaked until it explodes (at which point, the cloaking device is destroyed anyway)

However, that's all a mute point because we have no evidence of further Genesis Device research, the Federation can't use cloaking technology (legally), and it's kind over the line they are unwilling to cross.

However, I CAN see this being used as a weapon by desperate pro-Federation terrorists after the Milkyway is conquered. Make a bunch of them, smuggle them to some major worlds, and then give the Empire a few hours to withdraw all ships, or the devices start going off.

Problem is, if the Empire is employing Force-users (i.e Dark Jedi, the Inquisitors, the Prophets of the Dark side), they could find the Devices.

Good idea, just with lots of bugs to work out, and it may not be feasible.

[SirNitram]

Biggest reason why the Death Star wins this one? Once you have a Death Star, you can keep firing it. But as we saw, if you have just one Genesis Torp, you don't even get a stable planet.

[Bounty]

The Death Star was designed as a weapon; the GD was designed as a terraforming tool. It's no surprise that the DS is more usefull in a combat situation.

As a pure planet-destroyer, the GD is "better" - as in, cheaper to build and transport. But once you add any sort of defenses to bypass, a DS is better.

[MindTwist]

I think the Federation has no problem getting over it's dislike of cloaks in time of total war. They did in the Dominion War. I think they could build hundreds of Genesis devices. With the full resources available, they could fix any issues with the tech and design an autonomous infiltration device. Send it to hundreds of strategic points at once, and they could make a dent in the Empire. They would still ultimately lose with a stir up the hornets nest attack like that, however.

This discussion has been assumming that Trek ships are trying to use the Genesis Device against the empire. Good discussion, but now how I interpreted the original premise. I interpreted it as which is the better weapon, irregardless of who had it. Let's say the Empire had both devices. Which would be more effective? I think they would both have their place and most of the time the Genesis device would be more effective because it can remake the planet into something to help the Empire - take your enemies out and gain a new stronghold simultaneously. But it's not really the Emporer's style. If the Sith are in charge, Deathstar will be the tool of choice. With someone like Thrawn in charge, Genesis device would be used whenever a system gets out of line.

[MindTwist]

If the Federation were going to use the GD as a weapon, it seems like it wouldn't be too difficult to speed up the initiation process. The one we saw was a prototype designed for a science experiment. No reason for such a device to initiate quickly. If it only takes four minutes when it's just a scientific prototype, it seems reasonable to think they would be able to get it initiated much quicker, maybe even mere seconds. Add some sort of deflector to mess up sensors from triangulating it's location and you have a very difficult to detect and highly transportable superweapon.

[SirNitram]

By your logic, MindTwist, the Empire can produce hundreds of Death Stars which take no time at all to fire.

(Actually, there's some evidence that they could, mostly from the DS2's refire rate, the known recharge rate of the core, and the fact the DS2.. Much bigger than the DS1.. Was apparently cheap enough to be done inside of a year and in total secrecy. A war footing is intimidating. But my point is made.)

[Darth Wong]

I like this new type of logic where you can just arbitrarily add any capability you want just by saying so. Could prove very useful in future.

[Ghost Rider]

If the Federation were going to use the GD as a weapon, it seems like it wouldn't be too difficult to speed up the initiation process. The one we saw was a prototype designed for a science experiment. No reason for such a device to initiate quickly. If it only takes four minutes when it's just a scientific prototype, it seems reasonable to think they would be able to get it initiated much quicker, maybe even mere seconds. Add some sort of deflector to mess up sensors from triangulating it's location and you have a very difficult to detect and highly transportable superweapon.

Do you actually want to try and prove much of this bullshit, or do you just enjoy seeing your own words up on the screen?

[Junghalli]

About the energy build-up from the Genesis torpedo being detected... That kind of assumes that the enemy has omnipresent sensors all over the planet, which strikes me as kind of stupid. Say a terrorist cell were to smuggle a Genesis-based bomb into New York in a crate, drag it to somebody's house in Queens, and set it off in his living room. Do you seriously think somebody's going to pick up the energy build-up within four minutes? I very much doubt there would be any machinery in the immediate vicinity capable of detecting it.

[Srynerson]

About the energy build-up from the Genesis torpedo being detected... That kind of assumes that the enemy has omnipresent sensors all over the planet, which strikes me as kind of stupid. Say a terrorist cell were to smuggle a Genesis-based bomb into New York in a crate, drag it to somebody's house in Queens, and set it off in his living room. Do you seriously think somebody's going to pick up the energy build-up within four minutes? I very much doubt there would be any machinery in the immediate vicinity capable of detecting it.

Well, that's a poor example, since real-life "sensors" (i.e., radar, sonar, etc.) are nowhere near as effective as Imperial ones. However, while I generally agree with earlier posters that on a heavily monitored world like Coruscant the activation of the GD would be immediately detected and pinpointed, there's still the problem of (A) recognizing it as a threat if this is the first time such an energy signature has been observed; (b) getting someone to the location to deal with it; (c) figuring out how to deal with it once they get there. I'm not sure even on Coruscant that such a rapid response would be possible.

[Darth Wong]

About the energy build-up from the Genesis torpedo being detected... That kind of assumes that the enemy has omnipresent sensors all over the planet, which strikes me as kind of stupid. Say a terrorist cell were to smuggle a Genesis-based bomb into New York in a crate, drag it to somebody's house in Queens, and set it off in his living room. Do you seriously think somebody's going to pick up the energy build-up within four minutes? I very much doubt there would be any machinery in the immediate vicinity capable of detecting it.

Take a person, dump him in the middle of a snowstorm and send one guy out after him in blinding conditions. Do you think that guy will find him before he dies of frostbite? Don't be a retard. A typical SW planet will have satellites, and if terrorism is a major concern, they would be scanning for suspicious activity.

Do you really think that in a galaxy with beer-cooler size gigaton-class warheads, you couldn't already wipe out a city by smuggling something in? Most likely such actions are discouraged by the threat of massive and excessive retaliation, and if the Feds were to try something like this, their entire civilization would promptly cease to exist.

The Genesis Device is a weapon that's only useful against a defended target if they fuck up and let their guard down. A Death Star, on the other hand, is virtually unstoppable. If you took two groups of militarized planets and gave one of them a Death Star and the other a bunch of Genesis Devices, the one with the Genesis Devices would be the one destined to become a footnote in the history books.

[RedImperator]

About the energy build-up from the Genesis torpedo being detected... That kind of assumes that the enemy has omnipresent sensors all over the planet, which strikes me as kind of stupid. Say a terrorist cell were to smuggle a Genesis-based bomb into New York in a crate, drag it to somebody's house in Queens, and set it off in his living room. Do you seriously think somebody's going to pick up the energy build-up within four minutes? I very much doubt there would be any machinery in the immediate vicinity capable of detecting it.

Why do they have to send someone to deal with it? Open the planetary shield, and have one of the defensive battlestations or starships in orbit paste the area with turbolaser fire. That's not overkill when the alternative is losing the entire planet.

[StarshipTitanic]

Is the Genesis Device actually intended to be mounted like a torpedo?

The only evidence I can see for this is the demonstration video that Kirk watched, where the device is shot at the simulation moon. However, this contradicts the rather long build-up it required at the end of the movie. Keeping in mind that the demonstration video was exactly that, I'd be inclined to think the device would actually make a clumsy weapon. It would have to be deposited on the target planet and the defenders would still have 4 minutes to assualt the landing site before the device could activate.

[Vanas]

Surely a logical way to use it would be to arm it four minuites before you intend it to impact? Launch it with a spread of other torpedoes to decoy it and it has a good chance of getting through. Or, whack it in a Galaxy Gun.
Just make sure you fire it before the countdown runs out.

Plus, didn't the Genesis planet blow up after a month or two? That'd make it an interesting terror weapon the first time. Delayed action planetary destruction.

[Glimmervoid]

Surely a logical way to use it would be to arm it four minuites before you intend it to impact? Launch it with a spread of other torpedoes to decoy it and it has a good chance of getting through. Or, whack it in a Galaxy Gun.
Just make sure you fire it before the countdown runs out.

Plus, didn't the Genesis planet blow up after a month or two? That'd make it an interesting terror weapon the first time. Delayed action planetary destruction.

So instead of it being
“There is a sting radiation coming from the city I don’t want to kill all those people but I better”

It will be

“Him there is a strange radiation coming toward us I know I will raise the shields”

And combining it with not startrek technology is not a valid comparison (e.g. no galaxy gun) any more than if I was to say well the death stars fighter craft can carry genesis devise.

Also if you have a galaxy gun why not just use it.

[Vanas]

In the OP, the question was about the efficiency, not who's using it, as far as I can see. So, as the Empire is the one who likes super-weapons, I assume it's them using it. The 'strange radiation from the sky' might be a problem, unless you're jamming, I suppose. Or, unless your first volley of torpedoes takes out a segment, assuming it's a segmented planetary shield. (Use a Torpedo Sphere?). Kind of a BDZ+.

I haven't heard much about the Galaxy Gun, but from what I can tell, it's main torpedoes were pretty much chain-reaction NDF-like devices? The GD is pretty much the same thing, with the added humour value of the planet still being there and habitable for a month or so.

[Glimmervoid]

Ok as to your jamming idea it would be a case of
"Ensign: sir heavy military grade jamming detected
Admiral: raise planetary shield no one would bother to jam if they went trying some thing".

Also you don’t seem to understand what planetary shields do. They cover the entire planet with a force felid so strong that it takes an entire fleet of ISD a long time to get through it. Now your torpedo salvo idea would not be able to penetrate the shields of any important world and a back water one(one with out a shield) could be taken out by the ship lunching the genesis devise with eases(assuming it was not a st ship doing the lunching).

No sorry the planets being habitable for a time is a bad thing. It means that planetary defence platforms will still be there.

[brianeyci]

I don't even think that in the modern Trekverse, Genesis Torpedoes would be useful. Consider that by the time of TNG+, Genesis is already ninety-five year old technology. Also consider Khitomer was protected by shields (Duras story arc TNG), and so was the prison planet in TOS. An archaeological outpost had theatre shields in TNG. Maybe Earth doesn't have a planetary shield, but it still has a fleet in orbit and Starfleet would probably recognize the Genesis energy signature. Four minutes is a lot of fucking time.

So, Death Star 2 Genesis 0 (in that meaning in the Trekverse, Death Star would be far more useful).

Brian

[Darth Wong]

Surely a logical way to use it would be to arm it four minuites before you intend it to impact? Launch it with a spread of other torpedoes to decoy it and it has a good chance of getting through.

Ummm, do you realize that once armed, this thing emits a unique radiation signature which you can easily pick up from thousands of kilometres away?

For once I have to agree with Brian; this thing would not be a particularly great weapon even in the ST universe. They know what to look for, and they can simply beam it away or blow it up. Your only chance of making it work is to sneak it in and hope that the planet has very lax security. Hell, even if somebody planted one of those things on a relatively unmilitarized planet like Bajor, the bridge crew on DS9 could easily pick it up and deal with it before the 4 minutes are up.

[Vanas]

I guess if you were to attach it to a SW hyperdrive, it might avoid that. Unless Hyperdrive would accellerate the radiation as well?

Eeeh, blow it. I'll concede this one. But the idea of turning a planet into a timebomb appeals to me.

[StarshipTitanic]

Surely a logical way to use it would be to arm it four minuites before you intend it to impact? Launch it with a spread of other torpedoes to decoy it and it has a good chance of getting through. Or, whack it in a Galaxy Gun.
Just make sure you fire it before the countdown runs out.

You're still assuming the Device can just be flung at its target instead of a careful setup. I'd go as far to say a "Genesis Torpedo" is a brainbug, probably invented by fanboys trying to invent a ST planet-destroying weapon.

[Darth Wong]

Surely a logical way to use it would be to arm it four minuites before you intend it to impact? Launch it with a spread of other torpedoes to decoy it and it has a good chance of getting through. Or, whack it in a Galaxy Gun.
Just make sure you fire it before the countdown runs out.

You're still assuming the Device can just be flung at its target instead of a careful setup. I'd go as far to say a "Genesis Torpedo" is a brainbug, probably invented by fanboys trying to invent a ST planet-destroying weapon.

Actually, Carol Marcus' advertising video for the Genesis Device describes it being mounted in a torpedo. But as a terraforming device, it wouldn't matter if you can detect it coming for thousands of kilometres, even through a starship hull. As a military first-strike device, that handicap becomes significantly more troublesome.

[Ender]

Surely a logical way to use it would be to arm it four minuites before you intend it to impact? Launch it with a spread of other torpedoes to decoy it and it has a good chance of getting through.

Ummm, do you realize that once armed, this thing emits a unique radiation signature which you can easily pick up from thousands of kilometres away?

For once I have to agree with Brian; this thing would not be a particularly great weapon even in the ST universe. They know what to look for, and they can simply beam it away or blow it up.

I'm not sure they could beam it away, we've seen how well radiation messes with transporters. It might partially explain the point you raised on the prior page as to wjhy Kirk just didn't do that when they detected it.

[Eframepilot]

If the Genesis device could be combined with the Galaxy Gun technology that could neutralize all known defense shields (fun to be the writers and make up any capability you want, eh?), it would slightly improve the Galaxy Gun by merely erasing planets' inhabitants instead of obliterating the planets themselves. But since the Galaxy Gun was intended as a terror weapon and the total destruction of a planet is more psychologically impressive than "mere" total genocide, the Empire would probably not bother developing the Genesis device to supplement it. Ditto for the Death Star. And, though the Federation might be able to make an effective superweapon out of the Genesis device by eliminating its flaws somehow, they aren't interested in superweapons anyway.