SMART Borg Cubes vs. an ISD

[Isolder74]

it is 5km by 5km by 5km and for thoughs of you reaching for your calculators it is 125 cubic km.

You are incorrect. It was stated in "Dark Frontier" that the volume of a Borg cube is 28 km³. Therefore, each side measures approximately 3.0365889718756625194208095785057 km.

Too many significant figures the area is in only two places so the side has to be in 2 decimal places at the most

so 3.04 Km is the best answer anything else is supurfallis

[Anarchist Bunny]

Capt. Pkizzle, seeing how your attacked Darth Balls in the S8472, and your debating tactics, I have a question.




Do I smell Beef?

[Jim Raynor]

Borg Cubes might be big and bad by ST standards, but they'll still get wasted by single HTL shots. And they're only 3 km per side, or about 27 cubic km. Big size difference.

[Kuja]

Capt. Pkizzle, seeing how your attacked Darth Balls in the S8472, and your debating tactics, I have a question.




Do I smell Beef?

I smell something. Bullshit.

[Master of Ossus]

First of all a Cube can take a whole lot of punishment as well as deal it out look at the scores of gutted and derilict hulls a cube leaves behind from a battle.

Too bad those ships are orders of magnitude weaker in almost all respects when compared with SW ships of the same class, and an ISD is far more voluminous.

Secondly warp raming would tear one of the sds apart shields or no shields oh and by the dose any one care to know a cube out sizes you by a huge margin.

Actually, no. The cube, being that far less hard ship involved, will actually absorb most of the energy that the collision happens with. Additionally, cubes are almost entirely hollow, and they have no outer metal hull. More importantly, we have never in the history of Trek seen a ship in warp ram another ship, in warp or out of warp. If the Borg could have done it against Species-8472, they would have. Instead we see piddly impacts at relative speeds of only a few hundred meters per second.

it is 5km by 5km by 5km and for thoughs of you reaching for your calculators it is 125 cubic km.

Outright lie. The Borg cube is only three kilometers cubed, or 27 cubic kilometers. Moreover, its mass is what counts for the purposes of this calculation (and its velocity, of course), and cubes are largely hollow. Hollow objects have comparatively little mass. Why don't you run the necessary calculations, and find that the cube would do fairly little damage to an ISD before you come in firing all bullshit launchers at everything in sight.

Dont get me wrong the star destroyer is a mejestic and powerful ship that could esily take out a good portion of the ships i can think of from ST but the Cube would not be one of thoughs

Your spelling ability is exceeded only by your laughable claim that an ISD would have any difficult against a Borg cube. This is another typical Trekkie, everyone. Note how he uses subjective reasoning to disprove every scientific calculation that the Star Wars side has done. Note how he seems to proclaim "It's okay if I don't do any work, I like both SW and ST." This is the fifth consecutive time that someone has said something to the effect of "believe me, I'm not biased," but then proven in the same post that they are biased in favor of ST. Where do they get these people?

[Crayz9000]

Actually, no. The cube, being that far less hard ship involved, will actually absorb most of the energy that the collision happens with. Additionally, cubes are almost entirely hollow, and they have no outer metal hull. More importantly, we have never in the history of Trek seen a ship in warp ram another ship, in warp or out of warp. If the Borg could have done it against Species-8472, they would have. Instead we see piddly impacts at relative speeds of only a few hundred meters per second.

Tactical cubes have an outer, heavier armor layer which would seem to be at least several tens of meters thick. However, they aren't your typical Cube...

[Master of Ossus]

Actually, no. The cube, being that far less hard ship involved, will actually absorb most of the energy that the collision happens with. Additionally, cubes are almost entirely hollow, and they have no outer metal hull. More importantly, we have never in the history of Trek seen a ship in warp ram another ship, in warp or out of warp. If the Borg could have done it against Species-8472, they would have. Instead we see piddly impacts at relative speeds of only a few hundred meters per second.

Tactical cubes have an outer, heavier armor layer which would seem to be at least several tens of meters thick. However, they aren't your typical Cube...

Touchee.

[Shadow]

or 27 cubic kilometers.

It is 28.

[Master of Ossus]

or 27 cubic kilometers.

It is 28.

The extra hollow cubic kilometer clearly refutes my general point, but you are correct, it is 28 cubic kilometers.

[Sriad]

When a Star Trek ship enters and exits hyperspace, does it retain the momentum it had before?

What I'm asking is if Thrawn could have a group of cubes far away from the battle accelerate to, say, .6c, then jump into hyperspace, then jump out of hyperspace practically on top of whatever spot on the battlefield Thrawn has directed the Star Destroyer on to.

A cardboard box smacking into an AK 47 at 200 million meters per second WOULD do some serious damage, to paraphrase from a different thread.

[Ghost Rider]

When a Star Trek ship enters and exits hyperspace, does it retain the momentum it had before?

What I'm asking is if Thrawn could have a group of cubes far away from the battle accelerate to, say, .6c, then jump into hyperspace, then jump out of hyperspace practically on top of whatever spot on the battlefield Thrawn has directed the Star Destroyer on to.

Yes, that's what they call Microjumping...and it's Wars...but eh.

A cardboard box smacking into an AK 47 at 200 million meters per second WOULD do some serious damage, to paraphrase from a different thread.

You did read Bean's point right?

here ya go

It was me, Its very simple fokes


The Faster in Warp you Go= The Less Mass you have


So much so you are close to massless(Say under a miliagram) when you hit Warp 9.97

Every 1 Warp Factor takes your mass and havles it

IE Warp 1
1/2 Mass
Warp 2
1/4
Warp 3
1/8
And so on...

It's on this debate...

So no warp ramming wouldn't do SHIT to the ISD.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

First of all a Cube can take a whole lot of punishment as well as deal it out look at the scores of gutted and derilict hulls a cube leaves behind from a battle. Secondly warp raming would tear one of the sds apart shields or no shields oh and by the dose any one care to know a cube out sizes you by a huge margin. it is 5km by 5km by 5km and for thoughs of you reaching for your calculators it is 125 cubic km.

Dont get me wrong the star destroyer is a mejestic and powerful ship that could esily take out a good portion of the ships i can think of from ST but the Cube would not be one of thoughs

A) Wrong. A Borg Cube is 3030 meters on a side.

B) An ISD can inflict teratons of damage. A Borg Cube has an optimistic maximum shield strength measured in gigatons.

C) Did you bother reading the other threads on this subject before you replied?

D) Borg cubes are mostly empty space. Put a big hole in one, it blows up. An ISD can easily put big holes in cubes without stressing their light guns.

[Daimyo]

When a Star Trek ship enters and exits hyperspace, does it retain the momentum it had before?

What I'm asking is if Thrawn could have a group of cubes far away from the battle accelerate to, say, .6c, then jump into hyperspace, then jump out of hyperspace practically on top of whatever spot on the battlefield Thrawn has directed the Star Destroyer on to.

So no warp ramming wouldn't do SHIT to the ISD.

I think was Sriad was asking was if the cube(s) are moving at a significant fraction of C, jumps into Hyperspace, jumps out of hyperspace in close proximity to the ISD and they hit it moving at .6C, will that much mass moving at that speed cause any damage?

While warp drives do use mass lightening - it is possible to accelerate to fractions of C without such technobable tricks. So if they accelerate by classical means, the mass will not decrease with increased speed (actually mass increases as you approach C if I remember right) and that should add up to a considerable punch. How many such punches would it take to drop an ISD's shields?

At least I think that is what he meant by that......

[Sriad]

When a Star Trek ship enters and exits hyperspace, does it retain the momentum it had before?

What I'm asking is if Thrawn could have a group of cubes far away from the battle accelerate to, say, .6c, then jump into hyperspace, then jump out of hyperspace practically on top of whatever spot on the battlefield Thrawn has directed the Star Destroyer on to.

So no warp ramming wouldn't do SHIT to the ISD.

I think was Sriad was asking was if the cube(s) are moving at a significant fraction of C, jumps into Hyperspace, jumps out of hyperspace in close proximity to the ISD and they hit it moving at .6C, will that much mass moving at that speed cause any damage?

While warp drives do use mass lightening - it is possible to accelerate to fractions of C without such technobable tricks. So if they accelerate by classical means, the mass will not decrease with increased speed (actually mass increases as you approach C if I remember right) and that should add up to a considerable punch. How many such punches would it take to drop an ISD's shields?

At least I think that is what he meant by that......

Yes, exactly.

[Ghost Rider]

And it's going to achieve 20TT of power how again?

[Ghost Rider]

And also this is about a SMART borg cube...not suicidal...thus Ramming is the last thing any smart person would do considering survival is next to nil.

[Daimyo]

And also this is about a SMART borg cube...not suicidal...thus Ramming is the last thing any smart person would do considering survival is next to nil.

I think you are confusing the idea of what is generally smart - i.e. self preservaton, vs. tactically/strategically smart.

If ramming the ISD with umpteen cubes moving at .6C gets them the victory, then the borg that sacrificed themselves did the smart (tactical) thing to ensure the borg would win.

Back in WWII, the Allies knew the Germans were going to firebomb one of their cities thanks to breaking the German code:Engima. However, if they evacuated the city for no apparent reason, the Germans would had figured out that the Allies had broken the code and changed it. In other words, saving the city would probably have cost them the war. They made the "smart" choice of sacrificing the citizens of that city so that they could intercept and decode Axis messages providing them with a much needed strategic advantage. What is smart in one instance may not be smart in another - it all depends on the context.

Or to quote ST: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one..."

[Ghost Rider]

Plus also one must consider...How the fuck are they going to get into ramming distance?

All in all Ramming is not a smart tactic unless the captain is as dumb as Archer or Janeway.

[Daimyo]

Plus also one must consider...How the fuck are they going to get into ramming distance?

All in all Ramming is not a smart tactic unless the captain is as dumb as Archer or Janeway.

Sriad had already mentioned that in his post - he was asking about using a hyperspace jump to get into close proximity of the ISD after they had already accelerated to .6C.

Though to keep more in line with SW is SW and ST is ST, perhaps a transwarp conduit (TWC) would be more appropriate - but does a TWC preserve the momentum of the vessels passing through?

It's been too long since I watched ST with any regularity so I'm not sure.

Master of Ossus did bring up a good point - since the cubes are pretty much hollow, there is only so much energy that will be transfered to the ISD before the cube disintergrates from the force of the collision. Has anyone done calcs along these lines?

[Ghost Rider]

Sriad had already mentioned that in his post - he was asking about using a hyperspace jump to get into close proximity of the ISD after they had already accelerated to .6C.

One TREK does not have any hyperspace capabilites and two ISD can track ahead light hours...they would detect a Borg vessel very quickly.

Though to keep more in line with SW is SW and ST is ST, perhaps a transwarp conduit (TWC) would be more appropriate - but does a TWC preserve the momentum of the vessels passing through?

Even dumber tactic given they now know EXACTLY where the Borg vessels will appear.

Master of Ossus did bring up a good point - since the cubes are pretty much hollow, there is only so much energy that will be transfered to the ISD before the cube disintergrates from the force of the collision. Has anyone done calcs along these lines?

Yes and found it to be quite a bit less than 20TT(that's shields not the hull of the ISD)

[Daimyo]

One TREK does not have any hyperspace capabilites and two ISD can track ahead light hours...they would detect a Borg vessel very quickly.

If you read the first post of this thread, you would see that the Borg do have access to a valuable SW resource - Grand Admiral Thrawn. Whether or not he could secure a means to get the cubes into hyper space is another matter.

Also, while ships can be detected and tracked in hyperspace, there is nothing the ISD can do until they come OUT of hyperspace. If the jump were precise enough that the ships appeared one light second away, the ISD would only be able to get 2-4 salvos off before the surviving cubes started impacting the shields.

Though to keep more in line with SW is SW and ST is ST, perhaps a transwarp conduit (TWC) would be more appropriate - but does a TWC preserve the momentum of the vessels passing through?

Even dumber tactic given they now know EXACTLY where the Borg vessels will appear.

While the borg have been given the advantage of knowing about SW capabilities courtesy of Thrawn, why do you presume that the ISD will automatically be able to detect the transwarp conduit? While I know the computer game shows these to be big jump-gate like constructions, from the TNG episode I recall seeing, it was more like a wormhole in that it was completely invisible - even when activated. It was not until the Enterprise crew modified their sensors that they were able to detect it. Since a TWC is not hyperspace, and is not visible to the naked eye, there is no reason to assume that an ISD will automatically detect its presence. Am I saying that this trick would work more than once? Unlikely as all it takes is a probe droid with the ISD's logs/sensor data to give the SW Hi-IQ guys the info they need to modify the systems to scan/track both hyperspace AND TWC objects...

Master of Ossus did bring up a good point - since the cubes are pretty much hollow, there is only so much energy that will be transfered to the ISD before the cube disintergrates from the force of the collision. Has anyone done calcs along these lines?

Yes and found it to be quite a bit less than 20TT(that's shields not the hull of the ISD)

I'll admit to not being an engineer nor a physicist and so cannot verify these numbers myself. However, the only calculations I have seen assume that the ST vessel in question is using the mass lightening technique. As mentioned in a previous post, the cube will be using classical acceleration techniques to arrive at .6C so their mass should actually be much higher than it normally would be. So what kind of impact are we talking about if, say, a 3km/side cube made of iron (yes, I know cubes are hollow - just follow the point) moving at .5C hit the ISD?

The main reason I ask is because of the significant damage the ISD's were taking in the asteroid field in TESB. None of those asteroids were moving at anything resembling .1C and yet they caused the ISD captains great distress. From my non-mathmatical point of view, I find it hard to believe that asteroids moving at .01C at best could injure an ISD so, but an object hitting at .6C can just be dismissed off hand? Something there just does not add up...

[Ghost Rider]

Also, while ships can be detected and tracked in hyperspace, there is nothing the ISD can do until they come OUT of hyperspace. If the jump were precise enough that the ships appeared one light second away, the ISD would only be able to get 2-4 salvos off before the surviving cubes started impacting the shields.

Thrawn has knowledge to build and use existing Trek to make a Hyperspace drive?!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Okay please show proof of this one...please...that Thrawn is capable of creating a Hyperdrive out of existing trek tech?!

And you do know how fast and how many salvos a ISD can do in a second?!

No...go look at Bean's sticky..it's on the SW board.

While the borg have been given the advantage of knowing about SW capabilities courtesy of Thrawn, why do you presume that the ISD will automatically be able to detect the transwarp conduit? While I know the computer game shows these to be big jump-gate like constructions, from the TNG episode I recall seeing, it was more like a wormhole in that it was completely invisible - even when activated. It was not until the Enterprise crew modified their sensors that they were able to detect it. Since a TWC is not hyperspace, and is not visible to the naked eye, there is no reason to assume that an ISD will automatically detect its presence. Am I saying that this trick would work more than once? Unlikely as all it takes is a probe droid with the ISD's logs/sensor data to give the SW Hi-IQ guys the info they need to modify the systems to scan/track both hyperspace AND TWC objects...

So they wouldn't be looking for any anolmalies and just be sitting there dumbfounded?!

I'll admit to not being an engineer nor a physicist and so cannot verify these numbers myself. However, the only calculations I have seen assume that the ST vessel in question is using the mass lightening technique. As mentioned in a previous post, the cube will be using classical acceleration techniques to arrive at .6C so their mass should actually be much higher than it normally would be. So what kind of impact are we talking about if, say, a 3km/side cube made of iron (yes, I know cubes are hollow - just follow the point) moving at .5C hit the ISD?

Given multiple 40 yard asteriods were required to lower the shields...somehow unless they acihieve an astounding amount of mass...they aren't piercing the shields let alone the hull

And you do know ramming is still an unvialbe tactic given it gets them in closer range...it's like speeding a car against a guy in a tank.

The main reason I ask is because of the significant damage the ISD's were taking in the asteroid field in TESB. None of those asteroids were moving at anything resembling .1C and yet they caused the ISD captains great distress. From my non-mathmatical point of view, I find it hard to believe that asteroids moving at .01C at best could injure an ISD so, but an object hitting at .6C can just be dismissed off hand? Something there just does not add up...[/quote]

[FettKyle]

Maybe what the better Question would be what can A Borg Cube beat in Sw Since it is hopeless to do anything against A SD.
I'd Say they have a chance to beat the Tantive 4 however I'm probbaly wrong as it was able to hold up to SD's LTL for awhile

[Ghost Rider]

The Tanative IV is supposed to have MTLs...so maybe a Imp Shuttle?

[Mr Bean]

I'd Say they have a chance to beat the Tantive 4 however I'm probbaly wrong as it was able to hold up to SD's LTL for awhile

Acutal Power wise at least for shields they are pretty much on par, The T4 had much less than 200 gigatons of Shield(Otherwise they could have simply nailed it with a single MTL then dissected it with point defenses) By all indicatons it probably has near or equal to the amount of shielding a Cube has(1-10 Gigatons) but then IT has weapons on the order of two to prehaps three and a half times stronger than Borg Cube weaponry so at least that is a resonably balanced fight, one Hits Harder but they are pretty close to each other