SF medical- wtf?!!?!?

[TheDarkling]

Episode#8 - Lonely Among Us, ??? wasnt this where the transporter saved Picard?

Episode #128 - Realm of Fear - yeah ok the weird creatures (I cant really remember the specifics, something about creatures that exist as both matter and energy??).

Episode #133 - Rascals, Yes some weird field but without the transporter they would have died (this is the one I recalled however).

Episode #150 - Second Chances. I wouldnt really call this a malfunction it was a case of Riker almost not making it out and the transporter chief doing something odd, if they hadnt held off for too long this wouldnt have been needed.

TOS: the famous "Mirror Universe" accident. - 100 years ago not exactly relevent anymore.

TNG: Geordi and Ensign Laran (I think) are knocked out of phase by a transporter malfunction. - This was the fault of the phase cloak not the transporter.

-Kirk gets split into good/evil and overacts in both roles- again 100 years ago and technobabble mineral.

-One episode had 2 crewmen getting beamed into space because the ship was no longer in orbit- I cant remmeber this but it sound more like a problem with not checking sensors than the transporter (also 100 years ago).

-Unfortunate victims get turned inside out by wonky transporter beam, returned to San Francisco all gooey... - an unfinished transporter which shouldnt have been used also not TNG time again (this is however probably the only incident that I can think of where it was the transporter alone and not technobabble weirdness).

This brings us to the fact that we have only once (to my knowledge) seen a transporter not work correctly of its own accord and not some outside interference.

When they use the transporter in new situations or in ways that arent ideal conditions things can go wrong (its the same with most things) but according to Geordi there have only been 2 or 3 transporter accidents in the last 10 years (I assume he means fatal) if thats true (and we have no reason to think otherwise) then its a very safe method of travel.

People beaming around earth and into orbit have nothing to worry about its only ships going into unknown areas with new creatures/technobabble that have problems.

Out of those I will agree that I missed out realm of fear but I dont feel second chances qualifies (it didnt kill Riker and the transporter chief went against standard procedure and created a second "beam").

I will wait for more info on Lonely Among Us in case im not recalling something, anyone care to remind me what the transporter problem was?

[Lord Pounder]

Pulaski was constantly trying to relieve Picard of command. I wonder why. Maybe like the rest of us she realised Picard was a yellow bastard who had no place in command of a garbage scowl let alone the flag ship of any fleet.

[Slartibartfast]

Pulaski convinces Picard to get Data and her to fly out into a shuttle craft (because no area of the E-D can be sealed off reliably even with forcefields according to La Forge) and so they go out there. Here's the thing- potential biohazard- Pulaski wears NO PROTECTIVE CLOTHING WHATSOEVER. She consequently gets infected while Data looks on (by what I don't know or care I still haven't finished watching the DVD). Brilliant.

Remember that the geniuses at Star Trek TNG forgot how to manufacture Space Suits until First Contact. Somehow they expect every single planet and ship to have a breathable atmosphere and zero microorganisms.

To quote Galaxy Quest:

GUY
What are you doing! You don't just open the door! It's an alien
planet! Is there air!? You don't know, do you! *holds breath*

FRED
*sniffs the air* Seems okay.

Guy sighs.

[Slartibartfast]

Of course they are too fucking dumb.
Did B&B write this episode?
That might explain alot.
Or else a side effect of the disease was mass stupidity.

I doubt B&B wrote it, it was one of the early seasons, they hadn't even made the switch to the newer uniforms yet.

[Slartibartfast]

What always freaked me out about that episode (Unnatural selection) is how they used the transporter to reconstitute Pulaski in her original form (pre-goopy old age makeup and hunched-over over-acting) by using DNA from her hair follicle as a template.

What I find funny is how in that episode the virus worked in three stages: people infected changed states from "not old" to "old" to "dead"

[Dennis Toy]

How do you all know that the transporter in ST:TMP turned the 2 inside out?

[Warspite]

OK, Lonely Among Us is probably not a transporter malfunction. But still, there's a heavy reliance, or complete thrust, on a device that has been proven to be dangerous. (Let's not go into the biofilters right now, ok?)

An analogy: nowadays millions of people fly everyday, and planes fall, so far it's similar to transporters, but you see a lot of people that are afraid of flying, or concerned that the thing will fall out of the sky, and we understand and accept it as a normal behaviour, after all we wouldn't like that to happen to us!
Now, in the ST Universe, they use transporters without second thoughts, without aprehension, it's the most natural thing in the world, or in the Universe, and the ones that don't like the device are viewed as "strange", to put it mildly.

BTW, in the TMP, the transporters weren't still fully operational to the point that Kirk requested StarFleet to boost the signal, the result being two "transportees" forming in some horrible manner, and we don't know it was inside out or not. Now, why would they use a device if it still wasn't fully operational? That's stupid! Of course, there was the time window urgency, but if the shuttles did the job, why use transporters?

[Scorpius]

TheDarkling:

I think we're having two different discussions here:

I'm talking about the fundamentals of the transporter (ie disassembling you to your component molecules-effectively killing you- then reassembling a 100% copy of you somewhere else. The thing killed is just as dead even after the new 100% copy is created elsewhere)

You seem to be interpreting my point as "transporters don't function" and are asking for proof. I agree with you that TNG causes are usually extraneous when transporters go wonky (Trekno-radiation, Trekno-beams etc.) but that's not my point. I believe that transporters function exactly as they're designed to: They kill you, remove the corpse, then create a perfect copy elsewhere that doesn't even know it's been killed.

Even if you don't believe in soul or spirit, blah blah blah... The original that steps into the beam has its existence ended.

Walking along, step in a beam and then........nothingness! Then something else, somewhere else has access to all your credit cards...

The fact that the only good Trek Doctor (McCoy) has a problem with the transporter (although not as big a one as he should...) should tell us something. Maybe it's because Roddenberry didn't really explain the transport process in TOS that completely and didn't build complete episodes around Treknobabble transporter accidents (even if it was caused by some weird new radiation that wasn't the designers fault)

It was using the transporter as a medical device that set off the alarms in my head about what the process actually means to the organic matter (person) that goes in it...

[TheDarkling]

Scorpius: the transporter doesnt function like though - they needed Picards "energy" to reform him - obviously something survives the process it isnt just turn the matter into energy and then make a clone from that energy.

Something else is going on (it seems more like a person is changed form so they can fit in the buffer then moved and finally changed back to the previous form).

Warspite: I understand what you are saying but planes arent an everyday thing - imagine the reaction a person who was afriad of cars would get (and cars have a higher death rate than 2 or 3 every ten years).

[Zaku-chan]

I've never really understood this argument: how can a transporter, if it simply breaks you down and reassembles you, be accused of creating copies? If your arms gets cut off and reattached, are you a new person and the old one's gone?

[TheDarkling]

I would say its closer to if you hearts stopped then restarted are you a copy of the old person but its the same sort of idea.

[Master of Ossus]

Back to the original topic, Star Fleet medical has repeatedly been shown to have the disease-procedures of a puppy. The one that bothered me the most was "Angel One."

[Uraniun235]

More wierdness. At the end of the episode, the Enterprise returns to the USS Lantree (sp?) on which everyone was dead from the disease (incidentally it's a Miranda but without the weapons 'roll-bar')... as they approach the order is given "close to 40km". When the Enterprise fires a torpedo to blow it to smithereens, they're more like 100m away.

At 40km, the ship would look absolutely tiny, especially on TV. While it isn't acceptable as debate material, it doesn't take much intelligence to realize the VFX people probably ignored the various ranges given in the script and went with whatever looked cool.

How do you all know that the transporter in ST:TMP turned the 2 inside out?

IIRC, the novelization says something to that effect... plus, even if that wasn't the literal event, it's pretty damn clear that what Starfleet got back wasn't pretty, by Starfleet's saying "Enterprise... what we got back didn't live long... fortunately."

[Ender]

Maybe I should send these in for Mike's canon database.

Just started watching A Matter of Honor- one of the new recruits at the beginning is told by Riker that there will be a briefing and indoctrination session in 15 minutes.

Indoctrination? That doesn't sound too nice. What are they indoctrinating them about?

So? Current military involves indoctrination. It's what the briefing you get on command policies when you first arrive is called. The term has a negative conotation, but is not necessarily negative.

[Vympel]

So? Current military involves indoctrination. It's what the briefing you get on command policies when you first arrive is called. The term has a negative conotation, but is not necessarily negative.

Point taken- later in the episode Picard points out to this Benzite that he obviously wasn't listening at the indoctrination about chain of command when he came on board. Of course this raises the question of how one becomes an Ensign and doesn't understand the chain of command until he actually comes on board the ship and is told about it. Still, it just doesn't sound nice.

At 40km, the ship would look absolutely tiny, especially on TV. While it isn't acceptable as debate material, it doesn't take much intelligence to realize the VFX people probably ignored the various ranges given in the script and went with whatever looked cool.

I'm well aware of that, you don't need to make a snide remark about my intelligence. You cannot argue VFX in a debate.

[Scorpius]

I've never really understood this argument: how can a transporter, if it simply breaks you down and reassembles you, be accused of creating copies? If your arms gets cut off and reattached, are you a new person and the old one's gone?

Your argument about arms is not applicable because your brain is not converted in that example. Even if your heart stops and you get brain damage from lack of oxygen, there is still part of you that is constantly physically existing in this world. It's your original heart, your original brain...

Think about it this way-

You are who you are right now: alive, aware, intelligent.

Now you get broken down into your component bits, turned into energy, whatever. Does your brain still function? No because at that moment you no longer have one: your body has been changed into energy (to your point about Picard's energy theDarkling). That energy gets transmitted elsewhere and then reassembled into a 100.0000000% identical you at the destination:

But is it really you? Does the original me who stepped into the transporter (let's call it A) continue to gather experiences when the after-transport me (B) steps off the transporter pad? I would say not. For A, his existence is over the second the machine takes him apart. For B, his existence begins when he shimmers into existence (only he just doesn't know it because he thinks he's A because he has all of A's memories and experiences.) It doesn't really matter whether the energy is "yours" originally or not. A is still just as dead.

An external observer would say it makes no difference because to them B=A. B is 100.00000000% identical to A. But A is the one who gets ripped off because he no longer exists. If I were A I'd be much happier with a magic door that I could just walk through without being ripped to shreds (even if I didn't feel it.)

Master of Ossus: I got your point about being off topic. I think SF Medical has questionable ethics 'cause they signed off on these things. Because of that I got into the philosophical problems of the transporter. I guess the Hippocratic oath means nothing to them...

theDarkling and Zaku-chan: If you want to discuss this more I'd be happy to, but maybe we should do it in another thread at another time.

[TheDarkling]

Vympel: He wasnt in Starfleet he was on transfer from the Benzite fleet (although this begs the question, why was he in a sf uniform? maybe a Benzite division of SF was differing rules?) and they had a different procedure than sf.

Scorpius: I disagree with your assesment but wont hijack the thread by discussing it here.