Another reason why Kirk is better than Picard

[Darth Wong]

OK, back it up. What has Picard learned, character-wise, during the entire TNG series and movie run?

To control his anger? No, he was already good at that from day one. To lash out? Tried that, but every time he reverts back to his old self. To relax? He doesn't seem any less uptight to me. To question the Prime Directive? No, he still appeals to its authority in morally confused situations. Even if he's broken it before, he continues to insist that it is morally unquestionable.

There was precisely one episode in all of TNG which hinted at character growth, and that was "Disaster", where he bonded with the children. This was quite promising at the time. But did it have any lasting impact? Of course not. It's not as if he wants to become a father, or even that he's shown any particular interest in mentoring. The subplot of his interest in Wesley might have gone somewhere as far as character development, but they marginalized Wesley (and that sub-plot) when they realized how much the fans hated him.

So what do we have at the end of STI? The same old Picard, still spouting his pompous declarations of moral certainty. And from what I hear, nothing's changed in STN.

[Crayz9000]

As a writer, I can say that Picard is perhaps the most frustrating character to write. It's almost impossible to use him in-character because he is B&B's own Mary Sue.

I honestly find him very annoying. I tried using him in one of my earlier drafts of A Prelude to War, and failed miserably. The way my fanfic is, he's better off on the sidelines and not used as a main character.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Thrawn is pretty hard to write too, but for opposite reasons....

[Stravo]

As a writer, I can say that Picard is perhaps the most frustrating character to write. It's almost impossible to use him in-character because he is B&B's own Mary Sue.

I honestly find him very annoying. I tried using him in one of my earlier drafts of A Prelude to War, and failed miserably. The way my fanfic is, he's better off on the sidelines and not used as a main character.

Amen, I really tried to give him a bigger role in Star Crossed but he never "felt" right to me. I always felt that he was a reasonable facsimile of Picard but not exactly right and I realized halfway through why - it's a war story - Picard is most decidely NOT a warrior like Kirk, Thrawn, Nemesis, etc....so like Durant realized in the story, Picard's best attributes are diplomatic so walah...off to the sidelines as the ambassdor at large for the Shadowfleet.

It's a damn shame because I wanted each major SF captain to have a chance to shine but his character is so stodgy and uninteresting that even Janeway is easier to write

[macman]

Is it possible that the difference between Kirk and Picard are at lest in part rooted in how the Federation changed between the between the 2 series..in TOS the federation was an idea and far away and Kirk ignored them when he wanted to..by TNG they were a superpower and full of themselves..BTW Starcrossed Rocks

[Typhonis 1]

TNG oother problem is rady communications twwen fleet and its ships .I mean Kirk was taught to think for himself not call HQ every other hour

[macman]

TNG oother problem is rady communications twwen fleet and its ships .I mean Kirk was taught to think for himself not call HQ every other hour

Of course when Picard could not communicate with HQ's He acts like a small child who lost his Mother....Kirk could have cared less..He was not afaird to act on his convictions butt he could also overrcome is own limittions (Like in ST 6)...I thing he is one of the best captains in either Star Wars or Star Trek...I love the way He is shown in Starcrossed....

[Crayz9000]

It's a damn shame because I wanted each major SF captain to have a chance to shine but his character is so stodgy and uninteresting that even Janeway is easier to write

That's the same thing I noticed. Janeway actually has a personality, and can be developed; as a result, I've used her to great extent in my fic. Picard, however...

[tharkûn]

If you ignore the crap episodes then yes Picard grows. He deals with issues (like becoming borg, like the whole Tasha Yar thing, like starfleet being asses). The problem is that when we see Picard learning something, and in some way growing in the episodes ... it has no effect on the crap episodes in between.

It's the magical Trek Reset Button, that no matter what you do, it will have no effect on the greater scheme of things. This is why the best TNG episodes are those where this is NOT pused (i.e. BoBW, YestEnt, etc.) B&B seem to think that people can go through all manner of hell and then come out of it with no lasting changes.

[Darth Fanboy]

Notice that after all these years Picard still hasn't made Admiral, yet his female version (Janeway) is an Admiral in Nemesis. Riker is finally made captain after being Number One for all this time. Commanded three different ships for all this time after dozens of engagements, and he is still taking orders. Obviously he isn't qualified to lead anything significant.

[HemlockGrey]

Command of the Federation flagship is fairly significant...

Of course, he just rammed that flagship headlong into another vessel, accomplishing exactly zilch...

[Darth Fanboy]

I find it hard to believe that the Enterprise is the "true" flagship. Unless you count the "Battle for Betazed" I'm not entirely sure the Enterprise got involved much. A flagship should be a prominent vessel and used in serious engagements more often than not, granted you take all measures to protect it.

Now that I think of it, I'm guessing there is a blackmail video of the Captain "perfecting the Picard Maneuver" on Beverly Crusher. It would be a scandal if it got out....:-\

[Sam Or I]

Hey put spoilers on things.........even though I already saw, but still.

***Spoiler***







It did accomplish alot, if he did not do it the ship would have been able to make its way to earth. If nothing else, it would cause enough damage to the cloak for other ships would intercept.

Janeway Admirl??? WTF were they thinking

[Sam Or I]

Hey put spoilers on things.........even though I already saw, but still.

***Spoiler***







It did accomplish alot, if he did not do it the ship would have been able to make its way to earth. If nothing else, it would cause enough damage to the cloak for other ships would intercept.

Janeway Admirl??? WTF were they thinking

[Bug-Eyed Earl]

Goddamnit. Wong pissed me off. There were some things you're better off having not noticed.

It would have been interesting if Picard was a great captain at the beginning, but an asshole as a human being.

His growth would have been so great in that he is great at his job, except that he refuses to

It would have been great to se Patrick Stewart play that character.

Well, at least I can use a character like that in something of mine.

I loved the episode where Picard lived an entire lifetime in a few seconds. And they never made reference to it again. What a missed opportunity.

[neoolong]

Goddamnit. Wong pissed me off. There were some things you're better off having not noticed.

It would have been interesting if Picard was a great captain at the beginning, but an asshole as a human being.

His growth would have been so great in that he is great at his job, except that he refuses to

It would have been great to se Patrick Stewart play that character.

Well, at least I can use a character like that in something of mine.

I loved the episode where Picard lived an entire lifetime in a few seconds. And they never made reference to it again. What a missed opportunity.

That's not true. They mentioned it again, in like one other episode.

[Durandal]

Okay, people, let's just all sit back, relax, and talk about how much Janeway sucks. That's something everyone can agree on.

[CNS Sarajevo]

Back on topic....

My only criteria is whether they're the same people at the end as they were at the start, experience aside.

Dr. Crusher and counselor Troi. Both of them took on responsibility and a personal risk or two.

Agree that Data developed the most. Even without the emotion chip, I thought he was fairly human by the end. I was hoping he'd somehow make a gestalt "leap" with his programming and develop emotions on his own.

I would love to say Worf, but he was a stereotypical Klingon at the start, and he was at the end. Believe me, I wanted to see him grow more than any other character, because he always seemed to be the writers' whipping boy for being too tough.

Riker, Picard and LaForge really didn't.

The tough part about Riker was, I liked the character, but he didn't have any reason to stay on the Enterprise. In a real story I would've wanted to see him brush the dust from the Enterprise off his shoes and move on. I think I would've liked DS9 more if he'd been in command. Hmm.

Picard...the Borg episode should have changed him forever. More human, more jaded, more wary, edgier. On his way to swapping beers with Ben Maxwell.

LaForge...well, Scotty didn't change much by the end of TOS, either. They made him more like your grandfather in the movies. OH, THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN GREAT--can you imagine if he had hated the way the Enterprise was constructed as much as Lord Wong? "G*ddam starboard power coupling..."

[Eleas]

Okay, people, let's just all sit back, relax, and talk about how much Janeway sucks. That's something everyone can agree on.

Speak for yourself. I never had her fellate me.

[nightmare]

It's the Trek reset button in a less obvious form is all- it's evident in both TNG and VOY. And TOS, dare I say it.

Damn, you beat me to it.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I would just like to see Scotty's "if it's not working give it a good whack" School of engineering going against TNG "If you sneeze the warp core will become unstable" tech.

[Alyeska]

Notice that after all these years Picard still hasn't made Admiral, yet his female version (Janeway) is an Admiral in Nemesis. Riker is finally made captain after being Number One for all this time. Commanded three different ships for all this time after dozens of engagements, and he is still taking orders. Obviously he isn't qualified to lead anything significant.

Picard is sitting on his rank, intentionally. After some advice from Kirk, Picard has no desire to ever leave the captains chair. Riker WAS sitting on his rank in the vain hope that Picard would finally leave the Enteprise, which he never did. Thats why Riker finally accepted another command.

[Alyeska]

And Mike, Darkling has a point. More then once you have jumped down peoples throats for disagreeing with you, even when they have been polite. And yes, non-warsies steer a VERY big path around you because of this.

[Darth Fanboy]

Why in the heck would anyone just sit on a rank like that though, A long time has passed since Nemesis and Generations. Yet the entire crew seems to be the same, it's as if the crew of the Enterprise has no ambition whatsoever. Its impossible for a group of people not to have at least one person.

Picard said in Nemesis that to be human is to aspire to become better, or something along those lines, seems hypocritical to want to become a better person and then just sit in the same chair for years on end. Its a drain on SF too to have Riker and Picard stay in their position unpromoted. The federation can't get its new officers through one of its most prolific vessels. aybe thats why Starfleet is woefully underprepared for military actions, all of the combined experience of the Starship Enterprise outweighs the rest of the fleet save for maybe the crews of DS9 and VOY

[XPViking]

So do we see any great character development in DS9? And if Kirk's character is seen as better, then are we really saying that TOS writers are better than TNG writers?

XPViking