Darth Vader vs. Data . . . .

[Darth Wong]

This scenario applies a grossly one-sided handicap by removing Vader's powers but not Data's powers, and it does not even acknowledge the implicit concession to Vader's inherent superiority. Any attempt on the thread author's part to whine about people not taking it seriously is moronic.

Tell me, who's going to punish Vader for breaking the handicap rule and using his powers to defeat Data and then reduce him to charred android components? Anybody?

[Darth Fanboy]

I think the fact that its the Dark Lord of the Sith versus a Complex Artificial Intelligence throws seriousness out the window. Maybe if they were pitted in some kind of gladiator duel.

What if Vader played Data in a game of Chess? Assuming both knew the rules...

We throw out cheating and Vader tearing Data to pieces or hacking him to bits. Jedi Insight and ESP versus Data's Powerful Neural Network. (We throw out the mind trick or mind reading since Data is an android and will not be affected)

[Zoink]

What if Vader played Data in a game of Chess? Assuming both knew the rules...

Data won't be making many moves with a lightsaber in his head...

But..... Vader uses his ESP to see the future, leading Data along on a seeming victory, Data thinks he's in control, when all along the board is under the influence of the dark lord of the sith. Vader moves his queen forward in an aggressive move... a seeming give-away, because Data counters with his massive pawn army. Yet, it turns out that this was Vader's plan all along... Vader uses Data's pawn army against him, boxing him in and restricting his movements... and eventually gets the check-mate.

Victory: Vader.

[Lord Pounder]

Data might win a game of chess. Vader in the past has shown poor tatics whereas Data will have had access to all the strategies of chess masters. I believe he refered to this once.

[Darth Akwat Kbrana]

I wonder how many times someone has set up a scenario the have a Trek character and Wars character duke it out, then limit the Wars character so as to make it "fair". A long time ago on a Wars vs. Trek forum someone said, "Who would win if Darth Maul fought Worf? We'll take away Maul's ability to use the force whatsoever, and have him use a normal, everyday sword. We'll give Worf the Sword of Khaless and say it makes him invincible." Yeah, that sounds like a fair fight to me. We'll take away all of Maul's advantages, and make Worf invincible. The whole reason Wars would beat Trek is that it is unfair, it's a mismatch. If it were 100% fair, it would be a draw. You don't try to determine the outcome of a contest by taking way one person's abilities and skills, it's just stupid.

[Darth Wong]

I wonder how many times someone has set up a scenario the have a Trek character and Wars character duke it out, then limit the Wars character so as to make it "fair". A long time ago on a Wars vs. Trek forum someone said, "Who would win if Darth Maul fought Worf? We'll take away Maul's ability to use the force whatsoever, and have him use a normal, everyday sword. We'll give Worf the Sword of Khaless and say it makes him invincible." Yeah, that sounds like a fair fight to me. We'll take away all of Maul's advantages, and make Worf invincible. The whole reason Wars would beat Trek is that it is unfair, it's a mismatch. If it were 100% fair, it would be a draw. You don't try to determine the outcome of a contest by taking way one person's abilities and skills, it's just stupid.

Yes, but the whole point of Star Wars vs Star Trek is for the Trekkies to be as hideously unfair as possible, and then accuse us of being one-sided when we try to level the playing field. This particular topic is obviously facetious (which makes the author's indignation at people not taking it seriously all the more disturbing), but you see an awful lot of the same behaviour in "serious" debates. One SB.com thread involved an ISD vs a GCS but it stipulated the GCS to have higher firepower than the ISD as a pre-condition (by saying that "high-end (read: "stupidly ignorant of thermodynamics") TDiC calcs" were to be used and could not be questioned in any way), thus nullifying any attempt to debate that very point.

[Alyeska]

I wonder how many times someone has set up a scenario the have a Trek character and Wars character duke it out, then limit the Wars character so as to make it "fair". A long time ago on a Wars vs. Trek forum someone said, "Who would win if Darth Maul fought Worf? We'll take away Maul's ability to use the force whatsoever, and have him use a normal, everyday sword. We'll give Worf the Sword of Khaless and say it makes him invincible." Yeah, that sounds like a fair fight to me. We'll take away all of Maul's advantages, and make Worf invincible. The whole reason Wars would beat Trek is that it is unfair, it's a mismatch. If it were 100% fair, it would be a draw. You don't try to determine the outcome of a contest by taking way one person's abilities and skills, it's just stupid.

Yes, but the whole point of Star Wars vs Star Trek is for the Trekkies to be as hideously unfair as possible, and then accuse us of being one-sided when we try to level the playing field. This particular topic is obviously facetious (which makes the author's indignation at people not taking it seriously all the more disturbing), but you see an awful lot of the same behaviour in "serious" debates. One SB.com thread involved an ISD vs a GCS but it stipulated the GCS to have higher firepower than the ISD as a pre-condition (by saying that "high-end (read: "stupidly ignorant of thermodynamics") TDiC calcs" were to be used and could not be questioned in any way), thus nullifying any attempt to debate that very point.

Actually the thread in question called on high end calcs from TDIC for Trek and high end calcs for Wars from ICS. In the end, the ISD still won because high end TDIC put Trek at the same firepower of a GCS main phaser array as an ISDs HTL, and we know which has more weapons.

And such debates are not just done with Trek. A common one is pitting a force with traditional projectile weapons (aka guns) against Storm Troopers or some other force. The scenario has the guns being able to penetrate stormtrooper armor so as to see which side has the tactics, manpower, or skill to win.

[Darth Wong]

That still seems very strange to me, Alyeska. What's the point of a debate if you nuke half of it with pre-conditions?

[Alyeska]

That still seems very strange to me, Alyeska. What's the point of a debate if you nuke half of it with pre-conditions?

Depends on the debate. Some times pre-conditions are set because one sided debates are NOT fun. Who wants to debate GCS vs ISD when there is NO debate. So why not make things different and give them both absurdly high levels of firepower and unleash them at eachother. Or in the case of pitting enemies against Storm Troopers. It would be like pitting Delta Force against Storm Troopers, only with weapons that kill them.

Though it can get just a little absurd. One particular person was fond of this type of debate.

GCS vs Freespace Orion Destroyer, except the Orion Destroyer has its weapons range, acceleration, and speed all made equal to the GCS.

I pointed out that ALL of the GCSs advantage were removed, he didn't seem to mind.

This particular debate does not remove all of Vader's advantages. He still has the force for precog, and other things like improving his agility, speed, etc...

There is a difference between leveling the playing field and removing all advantages. Some debate are absurd because the creator makes it entirely one sided, other debates while not realistic do attempt to equalize things.

[Darth Akwat Kbrana]

Nevertheless, if you're going to limit Vader in any way, shape, or form, you should limit Data as well.

[Alyeska]

Nevertheless, if you're going to limit Vader in any way, shape, or form, you should limit Data as well.

Why? If your trying to level the playing field to see things differently, that compeltely blows it. Vader still has advantages that Data does NOT.

A whole lot of you seem hung up on the fact that Vader is being handicaped. He might be, but he still has advantages. Rather then bitch and whine about the scenario, why not try and debate it instead. The point of the thread might be that even with his handicap, Vader might STILL win.

[jegs2]

Vader isn't a cripple- it's not like he has trouble walking, jumping, choking, fighting etc.

As for a tennis match, Vader wins by default. Data gets him out on the first serve, Vader promptly hurls his lightsabre at him and Data ends up being half the android he used to be.

Funny! I can actually picture that...

[Darth Fanboy]

Data might win a game of chess. Vader in the past has shown poor tatics whereas Data will have had access to all the strategies of chess masters. I believe he refered to this once.

What poor Tactics? The first Death Star was Tarkin's mess, Vader led a brilliant attack on hoth and has wiped out Rebels and JEdi in numerous engagements.

Keep in mind some of his battle may have seemed like sloppy tactics but when you are trying to capture someone, especially a Jedi Protege. you have to alter your plan and use methods not necessairly efficient.

As long as Vader understand's the rules and uses Jedi precog I think it would be his match to lose since Data could use any master strategy and Vader would see how it plays out in his mind. Of course the Dark Lord was never one for patience.

[namdoolb]

Data might win a game of chess. Vader in the past has shown poor tatics whereas Data will have had access to all the strategies of chess masters. I believe he refered to this once.

What poor Tactics? The first Death Star was Tarkin's mess, Vader led a brilliant attack on hoth and has wiped out Rebels and JEdi in numerous engagements.

Keep in mind some of his battle may have seemed like sloppy tactics but when you are trying to capture someone, especially a Jedi Protege. you have to alter your plan and use methods not necessairly efficient.

As long as Vader understand's the rules and uses Jedi precog I think it would be his match to lose since Data could use any master strategy and Vader would see how it plays out in his mind. Of course the Dark Lord was never one for patience.

Can Vader read the mind of something that's not actualy alive?
More importantly, could Vader comprehend data's neural processes even if he could read his mind? (to say data thinks quickly would be somewhat of an understatement)

Yeah, I know precog ability was stipulated in the conditions at the start of the thread... that was for a tennis match though. That kind of precog is the same as what helped Anakin to fly the podracer, and that kind of precog could be obtained without reading anybody's mind.
But the only useful precog in a chess match would be reading data's mind... And seeing as Data is pretty much a droid, well.... I don't hold much hope for Darth being able to scan him.

[Ender]

No, that is not the only type of precog. Force users can see where non animate objects will be, hence their ability to block blaster bolts. If he reads on the pieces, not data, then it could still work

[Specialist]

Data takes this tennis match EASILY.
You remember that esposide where data created a child and she was dying. His hands was moving so fast!

[Howedar]

Yes, but the whole point of Star Wars vs Star Trek is for the Trekkies to be as hideously unfair as possible, and then accuse us of being one-sided when we try to level the playing field.

Like lightsabers in tennis matches?

This particular topic is obviously facetious (which makes the author's indignation at people not taking it seriously all the more disturbing), but you see an awful lot of the same behaviour in "serious" debates.

Why must the topic be facetious? Why can we not debate the merits of robotics vs. force speed?

One SB.com thread involved an ISD vs a GCS but it stipulated the GCS to have higher firepower than the ISD as a pre-condition (by saying that "high-end (read: "stupidly ignorant of thermodynamics") TDiC calcs" were to be used and could not be questioned in any way), thus nullifying any attempt to debate that very point.

Yes, which through an admission of inadequacy allows a more fair debate to be had. It doesn't matter whether or not TDIC is accurate or gives reasonable numbers, what matters is that people enjoy themselves and get a good mental workout. What the hell do you care (first of all) what debates are being made at another site and second, whether or not these debates are "fair?"



Go ahead, call me a Trekkie. I need a laugh.

[Darth Wong]

Why must the topic be facetious? Why can we not debate the merits of robotics vs. force speed?

Because Darth Vader doesn't play tennis.

Yes, which through an admission of inadequacy allows a more fair debate to be had.

That's the whole point; they do NOT admit inadequacy. If someone posted a thread like that and called it a "HANDICAP match", I wouldn't have a problem with it. But there is a tendency to bait-and-switch: try to win a debate on unreasonable terms and then apply that debate's conclusions broadly. Gothmog even made the mistake of broadcasting his intentions to do precisely that, prior to our debate.

It doesn't matter whether or not TDIC is accurate or gives reasonable numbers, what matters is that people enjoy themselves and get a good mental workout. What the hell do you care (first of all) what debates are being made at another site and second, whether or not these debates are "fair?"

Gee, I guess I'm just an asshole for having a problem with dishonesty, right?

Go ahead, call me a Trekkie. I need a laugh.

Actually, "moron" was the term that leapt to mind. This is trolling.

[Darth Yoshi]

No, that is not the only type of precog. Force users can see where non animate objects will be, hence their ability to block blaster bolts. If he reads on the pieces, not data, then it could still work

I always thought that type of precog was extreme short-term, like a second or two in advance.

[Howedar]

[quote="Darth Wong]
Because Darth Vader doesn't play tennis.[/quote]How many of the things we debate actually happen? Funny, whatever happened to "suspension of disbelief?"

That's the whole point; they do NOT admit inadequacy. If someone posted a thread like that and called it a "HANDICAP match", I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Openly stating it wouldn't hurt, but anyone with an IQ greater than that of cabbage realizes that when you give one side an advantage (or disadvantage), it is a concession of defeat under standard terms.

But there is a tendency to bait-and-switch: try to win a debate on unreasonable terms and then apply that debate's conclusions broadly. Gothmog even made the mistake of broadcasting his intentions to do precisely that, prior to our debate.

Gothmog does not concern me, Admiral.

Gee, I guess I'm just an asshole for having a problem with dishonesty, right?

Its only dishonesty if someone claims that its a fair fight. I've been wrong before, but I don't recall anyone doing that in this thread.

Actually, "moron" was the term that leapt to mind. This is trolling.

Actually, I think this is what mature people call "agreeing to disagree."

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

That aside, I think Wong is complaining that the scenario made Vader do something that is VERY, VERY out of his character. Kind of like a scenario about an ISD versus a Fed-ship, but the Imperial vessel lowers his shields and weapons to show peaceful intent. Not only is this unfair (since obviously this kindness will NOT be reciprocated in this scenario,) it is totally out of character and tends to kill attempts at suspension of disbelief.

Thus no one should be shocked when an answer goes: "And as the GCS attacks, a single gun on the ISD twitches and blows it apart." Or an even more joking "The ISD has sabotaged the GCS in advance - so the GCS blows up on its attempt to attack." These scenarios DESERVE to be ridiculed.

I think Wong's experiences with generosity to Trekkies (I'm referring to those candidates for his Hate Mail page, not decent Trekkies) have never gone very well.

Still, I agree that there is little point in complaining for the lack of a disclaimer. If some Trekkie actually tries to make something out of the conclusions of this (or any) handicapped thread, he could try it whether there was a handicap disclaimer or not. When pressed for evidence and reasoning, he's going to be stuck, or he's going to link to this in the hopes no one clicks it. Once they click it, truth is revealed.

[Darth Wong]

How many of the things we debate actually happen? Funny, whatever happened to "suspension of disbelief?"

I can suspend disbelief for the films. I cannot suspend disbelief for Darth Vader playing fucking TENNIS. What do you find so incomprehensible about this? Anyone who does NOT poke fun at tennis "vs" thread needs help.

Openly stating it wouldn't hurt, but anyone with an IQ greater than that of cabbage realizes that when you give one side an advantage (or disadvantage), it is a concession of defeat under standard terms.

People with an IQ greater than cabbage seem to represent only about half of the general population.

Gothmog does not concern me, Admiral.

I don't give a shit what concerns you. If you're going to attack someone for being unreasonable, as you attacked me, then you should be willing to consider the factors going into his decision-making, not yours.

Actually, "moron" was the term that leapt to mind. This is trolling.

Actually, I think this is what mature people call "agreeing to disagree."

No, it's you being a smart-ass.

[Darth Fanboy]

Perhaps when someone wants to bring up these topics they shouldn't be so specific with the characters, we can debate personalities all day. Nameless Jedi vs. Nameless Soong Android with only their physical and mental faculties at stake. Because we know Vader would never subject himself to a debate and ignoring the logical reasoning that he wouldn't makes debating pointless.

Hell the only reason I clicked on this thread to start with was because the title said "Vader vs. Data..."

[Lord Pounder]

Data might win a game of chess. Vader in the past has shown poor tatics whereas Data will have had access to all the strategies of chess masters. I believe he refered to this once.

What poor Tactics? The first Death Star was Tarkin's mess, Vader led a brilliant attack on hoth and has wiped out Rebels and JEdi in numerous engagements.

Keep in mind some of his battle may have seemed like sloppy tactics but when you are trying to capture someone, especially a Jedi Protege. you have to alter your plan and use methods not necessairly efficient.

As long as Vader understand's the rules and uses Jedi precog I think it would be his match to lose since Data could use any master strategy and Vader would see how it plays out in his mind. Of course the Dark Lord was never one for patience.

HELLO have you saw ESB, Vader was never a tatician, thats why he had Admirals under him. Vaders purpose with Death Squadron was to motivate the captains and crew, I.E. force choke any bastard who messes up.

[namdoolb]

No, that is not the only type of precog. Force users can see where non animate objects will be, hence their ability to block blaster bolts. If he reads on the pieces, not data, then it could still work

I always thought that type of precog was extreme short-term, like a second or two in advance.

That was the general point I was making, that precog is afaik short term, (5 seconds upper limit kinda thing), and whilst it's probably more than long enough to help in a tennis match, it's of extremely limited use in a game of chess.
This would force Vader to attempt to read Data's mind if he want's any useful precog, and being as it is that data is essentialy a droid, I'm very doubtful of Vader's ability to do that.