40m Rock Vs 6,194m McKinley

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-24 01:48am

Sovereign wrote:
But Voyager and Enterprise? Pure B&B shit
Comparing the Sovereign Class to a Star Destroyer is not smart since you say Gene had nothing to do with the Sovereign class design or construction. He created the 1701 and 1701-D, no other Enterprise, so although you argue that everything else is Shit, you still compare them to Star Wars...

Of course, to humour idiots like you. Doesn't mean I actually agree with it. First Contact butchered Trek continuity in every conceivable way; butchered the decentralized concept of the Borg, butchered the no-critical-point nature of Borg ships, butchered Zefram Cochrane, butchered the 21st century timeline, butchered just about everything. We incorporate the information for the sole reason that most Trekkies would whine until our ears bleed otherwise. But in the case of Enterprise, even most Trekkies will admit that it's non-canon shit, totally impossible to fit into the timeline.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-24 01:49am

BTW, you are still obsessing over this side-issue rather than addressing the original points I raised earlier. Don't try to pretend that nobody's noticing.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-24 01:50am

Darth Wong wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:In the same episode it claimed he phase cannons destroyed an object the size McKinley, a visual comparison of the phase cannon beam to the object that was destroyed show it to be far far smaller, maybe 100 by 75 meters.
Not surprising, which is why I demanded screenshots and exact dialogue (and why he ignored that demand in order to attack the postscript to my message).

For as long as I've participated in these debates, Trekkie idiots like him have always interpreted verbal hyperbole as rock-solid empirical evidence. Nothing changes.

Me thinks if the view point was so far away that we could see the whole of McKinley, then the phaser beams would not appear to be thicker then my finger on a 20 inch TV. That would require Enterprise to be rather larger then it is. No doubt Sovereign will soon attempt to argue that in spite of us also having seen crewmen on its hull.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-24 01:53am

Ender wrote:
Sovereign wrote:
But Voyager and Enterprise? Pure B&B shit
Comparing the Sovereign Class to a Star Destroyer is not smart since you say Gene had nothing to do with the Sovereign class design or construction. He created the 1701 and 1701-D, no other Enterprise, so although you argue that everything else is Shit, you still compare them to Star Wars...
Question for the rest of the board:

Was there anything coherently resembling an argument in that post?

There wasn't anything coherent period.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2002-12-24 02:00am

Sovereign wrote:
I don't recall if the mountain was visible from orbit. The "big as Mt. McKinley" "figure" comes from one offhanded remark made by Captain Archer.
Well they zoom in as the Phasers destroy the 6,000m mountain, and Captain Archer is not a complete dumbass he knows of Mt. McKinley and his own ships information on this Rock they just scanned for Target practice.

Ahem. And where, exactly, is the evidence that this was a 6000m moutain? Hmm? Other than an offhand remark from Captain Archer, who wasn't looking at the sensors, isn't a geologist, and may have been prone to exaggeration since he was under some strain at that point (they'd been attacked multiple times by an unknown alien ship that resisted their torpedos and were cut off from Earth and Vulcan)?

<silence>

Oh! That's right! There ISN'T ANY. Thanks, and have a nice day.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-12-24 02:06am

Jesus Christ, can't we get VI for this guy yet?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-24 02:27am

And to further rape Sovereign's pitiful excuse for an argument.

Sovereign wrote:
This episode of Enterprise clearly shows that this was the First Starship fitted with Phasers, and would be classified as Phaser Mk I or even lower. Skip forward 228 years to Star Trek Nemesis and see the newest Phaser Mk XII. Clearly Mk XII is superior to Mk I

So lets take a real world comparison. The US Army Howitzers M1 and M119. M119 has a higher designation number and entered service in 1985, far more recently then the M1 which arrived in 1941. So of course the M119 should be far more powerful, right?

Guess what? The M1 actually has an 8500-mete range advantage and fires a shell 2.7 times heavier then that of the M119.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-12-24 02:39am

Sovereign, for Enterprise to be canon, the Klingon Homeworld would have to be no farther away than Alpha Centauri. Just one last attempt at logic before I resort to insults like everyone else.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-12-24 03:32am

Has anyone else noticed that Sovvie has been ignoring a point that Alyrium and then Ender brought up on page one, namely that the phase cannon yield was stated (about 500 GW) and that the max dischrage was only 5 TW (or 10x that figure?)

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-24 03:41am

Connor MacLeod wrote:Has anyone else noticed that Sovvie has been ignoring a point that Alyrium and then Ender brought up on page one, namely that the phase cannon yield was stated (about 500 GW) and that the max dischrage was only 5 TW (or 10x that figure?)

He's also ignoring logic, visual evidence and all other points.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-12-24 03:44am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:Has anyone else noticed that Sovvie has been ignoring a point that Alyrium and then Ender brought up on page one, namely that the phase cannon yield was stated (about 500 GW) and that the max dischrage was only 5 TW (or 10x that figure?)
He's also ignoring logic, visual evidence and all other points.

Well, I challenge him to address the "500 GW" yield mentioned, and how it fits into his silly theory.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-24 05:07am

This guy's moronic non-arguments have been kicking around the boards for months. Village Idiot him someone.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-12-24 09:18am

Sovereign is bullshitting.

1. We hear the Captain say an offhand comment about the size. He probably doesn't know the exact size of McKinly.
2. We see the overloaded phase cannons hit the mountain. There's a big dust cloud. We never see what it looks like afterwards.

VS:

1. The Weapon Officer saying the yield was 500 gigajoules.
2. The Weapon Officer saying the yield increased x10 with an overload.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-12-24 01:23pm

They are not "phasers", they are "phase cannons". This when all other vocabulary is identical. Any comparison between the NX and the Sovereign on name alone is fallicious.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-12-24 03:12pm

Sovereign wrote:Then the final seasons of TNG are SHIT and DS9 is SHIT, and VOY is SHIT and Star Trek's 6-10 are SHIT

Yes and? I don't see a problem.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-12-24 03:18pm

Crazy_Vasey wrote:
Sovereign wrote:Then the final seasons of TNG are SHIT and DS9 is SHIT, and VOY is SHIT and Star Trek's 6-10 are SHIT
Yes and? I don't see a problem.

ST6! TUC! Second best ST film! Second only to TWOK!

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-12-24 03:21pm

Well I suppose an exception can be made for the last real film with the original cast in.

Not in the same league as TWOK though, I still watch that even though my familys copy is badly degraded and barely works.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-12-24 07:50pm

If it is phasers BTW then B&B have shat all over ST continuity AGAIN. In THE CAGE the Enterprise still uses LASERS and the crew carries LASER CANNONS. The phasers were brought in between Captain Pike's command of the Enterprise and Kirk's. Fully a HUNDRED YEARS after Enterprise takes place.

THAT IS CANON. Explain that and you can see why Enterprise is NOT canon by any crack addled stretch of the imagination.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-12-24 09:59pm

Or for a brief period of time they realized their phase pistols sucked shit.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-12-25 04:51am

If it is phasers BTW then B&B have shat all over ST continuity AGAIN. In THE CAGE the Enterprise still uses LASERS and the crew carries LASER CANNONS. The phasers were brought in between Captain Pike's command of the Enterprise and Kirk's. Fully a HUNDRED YEARS after Enterprise takes place.

Exactly for the above reason, I chose to ignore any movie post ST: Generations, and Enterprise. It's impossible to make up a consistent timeline with all this other B&B-made bullshit.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-12-25 10:31am

Sovereign wrote:
But Voyager and Enterprise? Pure B&B shit
Comparing the Sovereign Class to a Star Destroyer is not smart since you say Gene had nothing to do with the Sovereign class design or construction. He created the 1701 and 1701-D, no other Enterprise, so although you argue that everything else is Shit, you still compare them to Star Wars...

Idiot. Roddenbery supervised design of

NCC-1701
NCC-1701-A
NX-2000, Therefore by extension NCC-1701-B
NCC-1701-C
NCC-1701-D

Do you not even know your own show?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-12-26 11:46pm

For that matter, why are we required to "restrict" ourselves to Sovvie's assumptions that the "40" meter asteroids are neccesarily upper limits, or that 250 TJ was the only value? Were there not values well into the thousands of TJ (Mike's - for example?) Didnt Wilken's have similar firepower figures?

And didn't Brian himself use more than one kind of asteroid (some were 100 meters or so in diameter, and generating tens of thousands of TJ worth of firepower..)

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-27 12:15am

I mentioned this earlier. Sovereign treats the lower limit of the asteroids as if it were an upper limit. This is one of the oldest dumb-Trekkie techniques.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-12-27 12:38am

I wonder if he'll ever come back

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-27 12:41am

He's like a sniper with really bad aim. He waits for his spot, takes a shot or two, and then fades until the next shot (ie- runs away from the counter-attack). This would be a smart tactic (albeit despicably cowardly, since we're talking about arguments rather than bullets), except that he never hits anything.