Sith Lord vs. Q

[Darth Wong]

This argument smells a lot like the shuffle that rabid Fivers do when their firepower calcs aren't large enough. While the Q haven't done much of anything that couldn't be duplicated with sufficiently advanced technology (most of the Q's miracles would be trivial to the Culture, for instance) the same goes for the antics of the Jedi and Sith. The matter of the power of the Q ultimately boils down to if one is prepared to accept what is shown on screen at face value or if one is willing to pull an Adarx and repeatedly reinterpret impressions, hints, and vague descriptions to reduce the Q to something less than what they appear to be at first glance.

Who's re-interpreting anything? There is a vast leap in logic between "neat powers" and "omnipotence", and there's nothing wrong with pointing it out. It's ultimately irrelevant whether the Q get their powers from some kind of technology or some kind of innate ability; the question is whether we should assume that they are capable of doing anything more than what they've done onscreen. For example, we've never seen the Q actually carry through on their threat to destroy an entire civilization. Boasting does not equal capabilities in my book.

[TheDarkling]

Well we actually do see Q destroy an entire civilization (several infact) with his Anti-time eruption (well more accurately Picards Anti-time eruption) whether this was all some mind trick depends upon how you look at it.

I suppose you could also argue that since he wasn't the direct cause of the anti time eruption it wasn't a power of his but he could just travel back in time and chuck an asteroid field or two at the planet the civlization is currently on (or mess with the atmosphere as we have seen Q do) if we assuem he has the ability to travel in time (then we get into the grand father paradox and its non application in trek which is best to dogde for this debate).

We have also seen them teleport objects etc and ignore shields so while the ability to click the fingers and wipe out a civilization hasn't been shown he has shown abilities that would although him to do that with ease.

However Q isn't omnipotent as they fear humanity will become more powerful than them and a Q even stated they weren't so really to claim otherwise is wrong.

[Darth Wong]

Well we actually do see Q destroy an entire civilization (several infact) with his Anti-time eruption (well more accurately Picards Anti-time eruption) whether this was all some mind trick depends upon how you look at it.

Well, the fact that the future image was completely false is one hint.

I suppose you could also argue that since he wasn't the direct cause of the anti time eruption it wasn't a power of his but he could just travel back in time and chuck an asteroid field or two at the planet the civlization is currently on (or mess with the atmosphere as we have seen Q do) if we assuem he has the ability to travel in time (then we get into the grand father paradox and its non application in trek which is best to dogde for this debate).

As I've said elsewhere, the Q have never used time-travel to correct one of their mistakes and embarrassments, so who says they can do it?

We have also seen them teleport objects etc and ignore shields so while the ability to click the fingers and wipe out a civilization hasn't been shown he has shown abilities that would although him to do that with ease.

The Borg can do that too (or they could, until STFC when that capability mysteriously vanished).

However Q isn't omnipotent as they fear humanity will become more powerful than them and a Q even stated they weren't so really to claim otherwise is wrong.

Good, now go and convince the idiot Trekkie Horde to stop E-mailing me numerous times each and every day saying "Q would destroy the entire SW galaxy, so there" as a silver-bullet rebuttal to my entire website.

[TheDarkling]

Was the future totally false though? all we know for sure thats different is the Ent-D didn't get destroyed and maybe Piacrd retired earlier (not sure on the dates he gives in the episode).

Those could easily have been changed by Picard contaminating the timeline (which shows that at least the crew thought it was real time travel) like maybe Riker left the ship because of Troi and Worf and his bad feelings over their realtionship and thus the battle in Generations was headed by Data who actually realised the Ent-D carried weapons .

The Q haven't used time travel to correct there mistakes (or at least the ones we know of) maybe because of the supposed non-interference they are supposed to observe (I can't remmeber if thats from a Voyager Q episode or a book - hmm I will have to obtain those episodes) or maybe messing with the timeline is just a bad idea (something I think Trek bears out).

The Borg don't = Q so I don't see the relevance.

As for dealing with trekies just give them that Voyager qoute (with some flames of course ), however all the Q need really do is turn the Emperor inside out and the empire would implode anyway (maybe get Vader aswell just to be sure) - since they have shown the ability to move vast distances and pick out individuals for capture it shouldn't be too much trouble.

[Enlightenment]

Who's re-interpreting anything? There is a vast leap in logic between "neat powers" and "omnipotence", and there's nothing wrong with pointing it out.

I'm not stupid enough to assert that the Q are omnipotent. Aside from the obvious logical problems with the concept of an omnipotent species even the facts of Trek canon do not argue that the Q are omnipotent.

It's ultimately irrelevant whether the Q get their powers from some kind of technology or some kind of innate ability; the question is whether we should assume that they are capable of doing anything more than what they've done onscreen.

The basis of the Q's powers is quite relevant in the context of a vs. when the Q are dismissed as holodeck conmen (as it were) with an implied comparison to the inately powerful force users of SW. Dismissing the Q as conmen in the context of this vs. smacks of bias more than anything else.

[Darth Wong]

The basis of the Q's powers is quite relevant in the context of a vs. when the Q are dismissed as holodeck conmen (as it were) with an implied comparison to the inately powerful force users of SW. Dismissing the Q as conmen in the context of this vs. smacks of bias more than anything else.

Not in the context of certain events, such as leaping around in time. For example, hiding Voyager at the beginning of time is absurd on many levels, since there is no space/time outside of the singularity. It is impossible for the Voyager crew to exist in that state and see what they see, yet they appear to anyway. We could either invoke a lot of handwaving, or conclude that a lot of what the Q do is simply not what it appears to be.

[Enlightenment]

For example, hiding Voyager at the beginning of time is absurd on many levels, since there is no space/time outside of the singularity. It is impossible for the Voyager crew to exist in that state and see what they see, yet they appear to anyway. We could either invoke a lot of handwaving, or conclude that a lot of what the Q do is simply not what it appears to be.

Given the shoddy nature of Trek scientific accuracy, however, it's entirely possible to use that argument to dismiss all of Trek as something other than what it seems to be. Applying the standards of reality to such insults to reality as Voyager escaping through a crack in an event horizon--and even to things as fundamental to Trek as warp drive--leads to the conclusion that the Enterprise et el don't exist even in universe and that the Trek canon is nothing more than a documentary of the collected delusions of an insitutionalized moron.

While reducing Voyager to nothing more than the collected writings of Katherine Janeway, mental patient, 24th century Earth, makes far more sense than accepting Voyager's blatant impossibilities it does pose the obvious drawback that the 'real' capabilities of a mental patient's delusions cannot be rationally assessed.

Even though this line of argument is approaching reductio ad absurdum, it does demonstrate that using the standards of reality to limit canon powers comprises a slippery slope with severe pitfalls. In the interests of fairness, it appears much more reasonable to accept that the level of scientific education among Trek scriptmonkies is best represented by an imaginary number and to dismiss certain portions of the canon as simply far to stupid to be subjected to any rational analysis.

[Darth Wong]

Even though this line of argument is approaching reductio ad absurdum, it does demonstrate that using the standards of reality to limit canon powers comprises a slippery slope with severe pitfalls.

To interpret, not limit. It is perfectly feasible to interpret that as something other than what he claimed it to be, and chalk it up to the Q not even understanding their own abilities (which would be more in keeping with non-omniscient beings dependent on some ancient technology).

To use your example of Voyager escaping through a crack in an event horizon, it is better to interpret that as an obvious mistake on their part than to say "it must be possible to make a crack in a number in Star Trek, or to alter the mathematical laws of probability".

In the interests of fairness, it appears much more reasonable to accept that the level of scientific education among Trek scriptmonkies is best represented by an imaginary number and to dismiss certain portions of the canon as simply far to stupid to be subjected to any rational analysis.

And when those portions of the canon happen to include these uber-powers attributed to Q, then declaring them beyond rational analysis means that they cannot be used to generate meaningful predictions, so the outcome is the same either way.

[Gil Hamilton]

If you don't mind me saying so, Mike, I think the problem is that there is absolutely no way we can prove either way whether or not it's omnipotence or an elaborate illusion. For instance, no matter what Standard Omnipotent Trick Q pulls, it could still always be a hallucination.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is, is there any evidence that we can reasonably provide that would demonstrate that he's actually doing these things and it's not a holohoax? As far as I can tell, there is literally no way that your claim can be falsified, as any evidence provided could just be another layer of the hoax.

[Darth Wong]

If you don't mind me saying so, Mike, I think the problem is that there is absolutely no way we can prove either way whether or not it's omnipotence or an elaborate illusion. For instance, no matter what Standard Omnipotent Trick Q pulls, it could still always be a hallucination.

Omnipotence is not even a meaningful concept, as anyone who has involved himself in religious debates can attest. It is virtually self-evident that Q is not omnipotent; I am just constantly amused by how many Trekkies think it's a perfectly reasonable idea.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is, is there any evidence that we can reasonably provide that would demonstrate that he's actually doing these things and it's not a holohoax? As far as I can tell, there is literally no way that your claim can be falsified, as any evidence provided could just be another layer of the hoax.

If he does something which has lasting effects, it's real. It does not denote omnipotence, but at least it would be a real ability. But when he does these one-episode things which make the crew go "wow" but then leaves everything in pretty much the same state in which he found it, there's no reason whatsoever to think it was anything OTHER than a holo-hoax.

Take the moon in "Deja Q" for example. He obviously did that, since he left the moon in a different energy state. That was not a holo-hoax. The problem is extrapolation from this to omnipotence, or for that matter, even the annihilation of an entire inter-planetary species.

[Darth Servo]

Was the future totally false though? all we know for sure thats different is the Ent-D didn't get destroyed and maybe Piacrd retired earlier (not sure on the dates he gives in the episode).

And Data is dead...oh wait, thats right, they're bringing him back in ST XI