Fed Communism (split from "Stupid Connie")

[Evil Jerk]

I've watched many shows in the discovery channel involving the military and I never once saw any soldiers personal car, house, ect. Have you?

All I am saying is that we have seen evidence of the possibility of capitalism. (Siskos restraunt, Picards Vineyard, Holonovel Companies) Just as we have seen evidence of the possibility of communism. However, that evidence seems to be strictly related to humans and starfleet personal.

For example in what episode Jake is asking Nog for some money....here is the quote.

Jake : "Come on Nog!"
Nog : "No!"
Jake : "Why not?"
Nog : "It's my money Jake. If you want to bid at the auction, use your own money."
Jake : "I'm Human, I don't have any money."
Nog : "It's not my fault your species decided to abandon currency based economics in favour of some philosophy of self enhancement."
Jake : "Hey, watch it! There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity."
Nog : "What does that mean, exactly?"
Jake : "It means... it means we don't need money."
Nog : "Well if you don't need money then you certainly don't need mine."

(The key is in the word "species") Humans don't use money, that does not mean that the UFP does not use money.

Oh please, the UFP, largely run by humans, it's capital and most other significant facilities on the human's home world won't run things the human way?

Humans 1 of the 150 members. What do you think?

Absolutley irrelevant.
They RUN their damn state, the UFP is ridiculously Earth-centric. Sure, they have the occasional alien President, but look at Starfleet, the majority of the Admiralty and dignitaries are human with the occasional Vulcan, minority rule is nothing new.
After all, remember that there are certain requirements for gaining membership in the Federation.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Absolutley irrelevant.
They RUN their damn state, the UFP is ridiculously Earth-centric. Sure, they have the occasional alien President, but look at Starfleet, the majority of the Admiralty and dignitaries are human with the occasional Vulcan, minority rule is nothing new.
After all, remember that there are certain requirements for gaining membership in the Federation.

Just like states are allowed to have their own laws, Earth could have it's own laws.

Yes, lets look at starfleet. I want you to watch TNG Conspiracy and then you get back to me.

[Evil Jerk]

Absolutley irrelevant.
They RUN their damn state, the UFP is ridiculously Earth-centric. Sure, they have the occasional alien President, but look at Starfleet, the majority of the Admiralty and dignitaries are human with the occasional Vulcan, minority rule is nothing new.
After all, remember that there are certain requirements for gaining membership in the Federation.

Just like states are allowed to have their own laws, Earth could have it's own laws.

Assumption. We already know for instance that Lwaxana Troi has no private form of transportation, neither do several Federation dignitaries who are not human, this suggests that their planets follow Earth's law also.
We have numerous instances of the Federation itself following communist ideals, and exerting state control over many things, Jake's line merely suggests that as leaders of the Federation, the humans are the ones most associated with it's policies.

Yes, lets look at starfleet. I want you to watch TNG Conspiracy and then you get back to me.

IIRC three human Admirals, one Vulcan admiral.
This disproves my point how exactly?

[Master of Ossus]

Humans 1 of the 150 members. What do you think?

They also have numerous colony worlds and their homeworld forms the industrial center around which the entire UFP sits. Earth is also the center of government for the UFP. Humans form the vast majority of SF. They are the most important race, and their refusal to use currency is indicative of the whole of UFP society.

[Perinquus]

The point is, there is loads of evidence for capitalism not only in our society, but in our military. You could not expect to film thousands of hours of footage about a group of military personnel in the present day U.S. armed forces, and not end up showing some of this evidence. Not only do we see no evidence of this kind in Star Trek, we also see evidence to suggest that capitalism does not exist in the Federation, and that things are run on communist or socialist lines.

I've watched many shows in the discovery channel involving the military and I never once saw any soldiers personal car, house, ect. Have you?

Sure have. JAG, for example (It's not a show I watch very often, mainly because I think it's pretty silly - I mean really, you might as well have a military action show titled "The Supply Sergeant!" - but Catherine Bell's a babe, so occasionally, if I'm bored and there's nothing else on the tube, I'll watch). And even as little as I see of that show, when I do watch, I quite often see the characters driving their cars, or see them in their homes, etc.

A better example, for our purposes is Babylon 5. Garibaldi once built an old Kawasaki motorbike with Lenier's help. He also ended up marrying the widow of the owner of a giant and powerful megacorporation. This was not intended to do it, but it does show marvelously well that capitalism is alive and well in the world of Babylon.

Also from B5, Sinclair once had a girlfriend who flew her private ship to Sigma 957 in the episode "Mind War". She did this against the advice of G'Kar, and had to be rescued by Narn fighters when she got into trouble. Point is, she went there because she had been hired by a large industrial company based on earth to survey the place, and whether she owned the ship or the company did is really irrelevant; it was still a privately owned vehicle - something we never see in Star Trek. In fact we never see any evidence of privately owned corporations, just small, family run businesses, which do not appear to be profit making enterprises (Robert Picard explicitly stated he kept up the vinyard for the sake of tradition).

All I am saying is that we have seen evidence of the possibility of capitalism. (Siskos restraunt, Picards Vineyard, Holonovel Companies) Just as we have seen evidence of the possibility of communism. However, that evidence seems to be strictly related to humans and starfleet personal.

Again, the evidence of privately owned businesses is strictly small scale. They don't appear to exist in order to profit or support their owners, and in fact, we have seen on numerous occasions that the profit motive is regarded by Star Trek humans as base, low, even dirty.

And we never see evidence of large corporations. We never see advertisements. We never see company logos on anything. We never see competing designs of similar products. We never see any of this, in any aspects of these characters' lives, and it's just not plausible that that would be the case if their society were captialist. But we have seen lots of evidence for communism.

For example in what episode Jake is asking Nog for some money....here is the quote.

Jake : "Come on Nog!"
Nog : "No!"
Jake : "Why not?"
Nog : "It's my money Jake. If you want to bid at the auction, use your own money."
Jake : "I'm Human, I don't have any money."
Nog : "It's not my fault your species decided to abandon currency based economics in favour of some philosophy of self enhancement."
Jake : "Hey, watch it! There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity."
Nog : "What does that mean, exactly?"
Jake : "It means... it means we don't need money."
Nog : "Well if you don't need money then you certainly don't need mine."

(The key is in the word "species") Humans don't use money, that does not mean that the UFP does not use money.

I really want to puke every time I hear nonsense like this from the Star Trek writers. It simply flies in the face of human nature. People are motivated by self interest, not some airy fairy, abstract altruism. That's just how it is. That's human nature, and basic human nature doesn't change. Cultures change, values change, but human nature is no different now from what it was during the bronze age and before.

But it does illustrate my point rather nicely. Humans (clearly the dominant species in the Federation) in Star Trek have abandoned money. They don't have it. They don't have money. They don't have investments. They don't have private ownership of anything but small, strictly personal items and business ventures. They don't have profit. They don't have capitalism.

You're making my point for me.

[Master of Ossus]

Kamikaze Sith, I really don't see how Picard's vineyard is an example of a privately owned business, and even if it is it must be reconciled with the quotes that state clearly that humans do not have money. What is the reason behind any business venture? Profit motive. If there is no profit motive, there will be no venture. However, even in communist states we did find very small farms and businesses run almost exclusievely by a single individual that created a product. That is almost certainly what we are seeing here.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I will respond to everyones posts tomorrow morning, but before I go here is something more.

VGR "The Gift"
Janeway : "Ah! Tuvok's meditation lamp! I was with him when he got it, six years ago, from a Vulcan master - who doubled the price when he saw our Starfleet insignias."

This indicates that Vulcans use money.

I would also like to point out that Vash is unable to travel within the Federation without UFP funds.

[Perinquus]

This just proves that the word "consistency" just isn't in the dictionary used by the writers of Star Trek. They do not even seem to understand the concept. These statements cannot be reconciled with the explicit statements, made on numerous occasions, that they do not use money in the Federation.

The fact that they make such a point of crowing about that on this show, and preening themselves over the supposed moral superiority gained by having abandoned "the pursuit of wealth and material possesions" that I am inclined to give more weight to the evidence for lack of money than I am to these isolated statements.

[2000AD]

Humans 1 of the 150 members. What do you think?

Isn't it 150 member plnets/states? not 150 species?

[Evil Jerk]

I will respond to everyones posts tomorrow morning, but before I go here is something more.

VGR "The Gift"
Janeway : "Ah! Tuvok's meditation lamp! I was with him when he got it, six years ago, from a Vulcan master - who doubled the price when he saw our Starfleet insignias."

This indicates that Vulcans use money.

I would also like to point out that Vash is unable to travel within the Federation without UFP funds.

Again, the USSR used Rubles. This disproves nothing.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I will respond to everyones posts tomorrow morning, but before I go here is something more.

VGR "The Gift"
Janeway : "Ah! Tuvok's meditation lamp! I was with him when he got it, six years ago, from a Vulcan master - who doubled the price when he saw our Starfleet insignias."

This indicates that Vulcans use money.

I would also like to point out that Vash is unable to travel within the Federation without UFP funds.

Again, the USSR used Rubles. This disproves nothing.

I never claimed it did. Once again all I am doing is pointing out the possibility of capitalism. You've all made a pretty good case that it is communist but nothing rock solid.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Humans 1 of the 150 members. What do you think?

Isn't it 150 member plnets/states? not 150 species?

I always thought it was species.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Kamikaze Sith, I really don't see how Picard's vineyard is an example of a privately owned business, and even if it is it must be reconciled with the quotes that state clearly that humans do not have money. What is the reason behind any business venture? Profit motive. If there is no profit motive, there will be no venture. However, even in communist states we did find very small farms and businesses run almost exclusievely by a single individual that created a product. That is almost certainly what we are seeing here.

Your looking for something like Microsoft? How about the Holonovel company that wanted to purchase the rights to the Doctors novels?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Absolutley irrelevant.
They RUN their damn state, the UFP is ridiculously Earth-centric. Sure, they have the occasional alien President, but look at Starfleet, the majority of the Admiralty and dignitaries are human with the occasional Vulcan, minority rule is nothing new.
After all, remember that there are certain requirements for gaining membership in the Federation.

Okay, so Earth(state) is communist but the UFP isn't.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Sure have. JAG, for example (It's not a show I watch very often, mainly because I think it's pretty silly - I mean really, you might as well have a military action show titled "The Supply Sergeant!" - but Catherine Bell's a babe, so occasionally, if I'm bored and there's nothing else on the tube, I'll watch). And even as little as I see of that show, when I do watch, I quite often see the characters driving their cars, or see them in their homes, etc.

I enjoy JAG, it's good entertainment.

A better example, for our purposes is Babylon 5. Garibaldi once built an old Kawasaki motorbike with Lenier's help. He also ended up marrying the widow of the owner of a giant and powerful megacorporation. This was not intended to do it, but it does show marvelously well that capitalism is alive and well in the world of Babylon.

Good example. I need to get the details on that Holonovel company.

I really want to puke every time I hear nonsense like this from the Star Trek writers. It simply flies in the face of human nature. People are motivated by self interest, not some airy fairy, abstract altruism. That's just how it is. That's human nature, and basic human nature doesn't change. Cultures change, values change, but human nature is no different now from what it was during the bronze age and before.

But it does illustrate my point rather nicely. Humans (clearly the dominant species in the Federation) in Star Trek have abandoned money. They don't have it. They don't have money. They don't have investments. They don't have private ownership of anything but small, strictly personal items and business ventures. They don't have profit. They don't have capitalism.

I agree Humans don't have money, this has been clearly stated. However, I still hold that the UFP does.

And you point is what? That humans don't use money? That the UFP does not use money?

[Kamakazie Sith]

This just proves that the word "consistency" just isn't in the dictionary used by the writers of Star Trek. They do not even seem to understand the concept. These statements cannot be reconciled with the explicit statements, made on numerous occasions, that they do not use money in the Federation.

The fact that they make such a point of crowing about that on this show, and preening themselves over the supposed moral superiority gained by having abandoned "the pursuit of wealth and material possesions" that I am inclined to give more weight to the evidence for lack of money than I am to these isolated statements.

These inconsistencys is what makes debating for or against ST diffficult. Because for one statement there is always a counter.

[2000AD]

I think that the line of thinking here is that since humans don't use money and since they're the most dominat member of the UFP, the majority of the UFP doesn't use money, if not all of it.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I think that the line of thinking here is that since humans don't use money and since they're the most dominat member of the UFP, the majority of the UFP doesn't use money, if not all of it.

That may be true.

[Evil Jerk]

I never claimed it did. Once again all I am doing is pointing out the possibility of capitalism. You've all made a pretty good case that it is communist but nothing rock solid.

An offhand comment about the purchase of a trinket (not apparentley even from a shop) is not even near evidence that it could be capitalist, though.

Your looking for something like Microsoft? How about the Holonovel company that wanted to purchase the rights to the Doctors novels?

You mean the one that appears to not charge anything for what they publish, nobody ever made a reference to purchasing Dixon Hill holonovels, they were just there, and if Dilithium mining plasma conduit scrubbing slave holograms (who certainly don't have money) have access to the holodoc's novel, what does this say?

Okay, so Earth(state) is communist but the UFP isn't.

By state I mean the Federation, not in the US meaning.
I think it's outlandish to suggest Earth, the center and unifying force of the Federation has one way of doing things while the rest of the Federation does it another, despite evidence to the contrary.

[Darth Wong]

I never claimed it did. Once again all I am doing is pointing out the possibility of capitalism. You've all made a pretty good case that it is communist but nothing rock solid.

The similarities to the various "Existence of God" arguments in the SLAM forum are eerie, aren't they?

[Kamakazie Sith]

An offhand comment about the purchase of a trinket (not apparentley even from a shop) is not even near evidence that it could be capitalist, though.

You mean the one that appears to not charge anything for what they publish, nobody ever made a reference to purchasing Dixon Hill holonovels, they were just there, and if Dilithium mining plasma conduit scrubbing slave holograms (who certainly don't have money) have access to the holodoc's novel, what does this say?

Why do they have to make references that someone purchased the Dixon Hill novels? I see the holodeck as a library, and I don't know about your state but they don't charge you for reading books in librarys here.

By state I mean the Federation, not in the US meaning.
I think it's outlandish to suggest Earth, the center and unifying force of the Federation has one way of doing things while the rest of the Federation does it another, despite evidence to the contrary.

Outlandish? Earth is one of the many planets in the UFP and is the home of one of the many different species. They don't stop the Vulcan's from pursuing the quest of pure logic, nor do they enforce it. Why do you believe they would force humanities quest to "better themselves" upon other races?

[Kamakazie Sith]

I never claimed it did. Once again all I am doing is pointing out the possibility of capitalism. You've all made a pretty good case that it is communist but nothing rock solid.

The similarities to the various "Existence of God" arguments in the SLAM forum are eerie, aren't they?

Nah, we've offerred far more evidence than the creationists could ever hope for.

[Evil Jerk]

Why do they have to make references that someone purchased the Dixon Hill novels? I see the holodeck as a library, and I don't know about your state but they don't charge you for reading books in librarys here.

No, but the library must purchase those books, no?
There were several episodes where new Dixon Hill novels were being tried out, but not once did anyone comment on them just arriving or on them being bought for the ship.

Outlandish? Earth is one of the many planets in the UFP and is the home of one of the many different species. They don't stop the Vulcan's from pursuing the quest of pure logic, nor do they enforce it. Why do you believe they would force humanities quest to "better themselves" upon other races?

Because it's not a quest, it's a system of government.

[Alyeska]

FYI, you can not purchase ANYTHING in a true communist state. Thus the mentions of purchasing things in ST clearly indicates a level of capitalism.

The question is, what is the hybrid level that the UFP is at in regards to Communism/Capitalism.

Another little bit of info. The US has some elements of communism. The USSR had some elements of capitalism. Neither was fully what they called eachother.

[Darth Wong]

FYI, you can not purchase ANYTHING in a true communist state. Thus the mentions of purchasing things in ST clearly indicates a level of capitalism.

Under the Soviet Union, it was possible to purchase things. You just couldn't invest anything, ie- generate capital. I reiterate that your "disproofs" of Federation communism would also "disprove" Soviet communism.

Another little bit of info. The US has some elements of communism. The USSR had some elements of capitalism. Neither was fully what they called each other.

Communism is the removal of capital. I suggest you read Marx's "Communist Manifesto". At no point does he describe the removal of the ability to purchase items as part of the communist mandate or definition.